Clemson and NewSpring
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No, they are not required to register for tax exempt status. Its an extension of the Establishment Clause.
LW, I spent half of my morning yesterday on that blog and subsequent searches about the aftermath.
I stumbled upon the link below which appears to be the original response from NewSpring/Noble to the allegations. Certainly paints Duncan as a money-seeking loon who's sole purpose was to defame the church.
I don't think the allegations about Maxwell's tweets and Milstead's resignation letter are in doubt. The question is whether or not the other church leadership mentioned in the blog were aware that Maxwell was sending the tweets. A lot of the people mentioned in the blog are still in active leadership roles, including the Moorhead guy who apparently lived right behind Duncan.
I believe they settled out of court in 2013.
I'm sure the truth lies somewhere between the Duncan blog's allegations and the church leadership's "we had no idea" response but even something in the middle is pretty disgusting.
That, along with the apparent lack of transparency in the financials would be more than enough to cause me some pause if I were an "owner". To each their own I suppose.
NewSpring Response
Well I guess all the church planters I've worked with for years now and the churches I've helped to start, I guess we did a lot of unnecessary work. There is an application and approval process. I do this for a living. What do you do for a living?
You did, at least at the federal level. Like I said, I am unsure of every individual state requirement.
Here you go
They have 9 campuses. Each campus has a campus pastor and youth pastor along with multiple support staff and counselors. I haven't been since they were just one campus, but I would guess they have around 200 employees, so the $15M is reasonable when you include salaries and benefits. I know PN has said on several occasions that his wife is the bread winner of the family. She is a doctor I believe. He has also stated that he donated the profits from his book sales to the church for several years on top of tithing to the church. I do agree that their finances should at least be viewable to the tithers in their congregation.
OK, now I get, just a misunderstanding. Some people might consider it their tithe or part of their tithe, but I have a feeling those are the same type of people who would go to one church but tithe at another or donate to some other charity and consider that their tithe...as you pointed out, it isn't.
You can designate your gifts, what I said was correct, and you are correct in saying that that designated money should not be considered part of your tithe. There also very well may be documents showing that the money was spent according to the designation, I've just never worried about asking. It goes back to what I said in another post, if God tells me to give money, I give money. If the Church doesn't use that money for the purpose that it was given, they'll have to account for it, but not to me, so why worry about it?
The 15 million isn't salaries necessarily. That is the problem with the report. Staffing can mean a lot of things. The clergy money could be in the staffing part but a lot of other salaries can be lumped in the operations bucket.
Like I said, it is too nebulous to really tell anything from those numbers. The mission numbers can even include salaries, rent and other expenses.
Well, if it is a designated gift it should be accounted for... I am keenly aware of this because we are dealing with tens of thousands of dollars at our church that are tied up in designated funds. You have to go back to the original giver (or their heirs) and get permission to spend it on anything else. So in some cases a ministry may have ended, but dollars are still tied up. That is why I am pretty sensitive about designated giving and have asked our financial secretary to investigate a form to use when a designated gift comes in that allows the church to redirect it if the stated mission/ministry is dormant for X years or if the church council deems the goal of the fundraising 'un-achievable' at some point. We aren't sure we can do that but we are looking in to options.
I do know that most of the hoops and details are on the state level because every state is different. I also know that we have a federal tax ID number that had to be applied for. We also include our federal tax ID number on all of our giving statements as well all clergy tax reporting. We may be a little over-the-top, but better safe than sorry.
Did you really just type that? I believe Jesus was in fact "spreading the word" and also commanded his followers to do the same.
Old House: http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1003-Kings-Mill-Ct-Anderson-SC-29621/67580876_zpid/
New House: http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/241-Andalusian-Trl-Anderson-SC-29621/82541148_zpid/
In 2013 he paid taxes on a 2008 Jeep Wrangler, a 2002 Lexus, and a boat.
He doesn't appear to be living lavishly.
This post was edited on 4/17 3:57 PM by CU1TruTiger4Life
New House: http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/241-Andalusian-Trl-Anderson-SC-29621/82541148_zpid/
In 2013 he paid taxes on a 2008 Jeep Wrangler, a 2002 Lexus, and a boat.
He doesn't appear to be living lavishly.
This post was edited on 4/17 3:57 PM by CU1TruTiger4Life
I'll admit I haven't read the entire blog, NewSpring's response or even all the information ITT.
However, I have read the filed lawsuit and it certainly seems that some of the information in the blog is embellished and Mr. Duncan's attorney didn't even see it worthy of filing in the lawsuit.
According to the lawsuit, they allege that Perry Noble (for example) should have known that this was going on b/c he was tweeted @ two times by a parody account created by Mr. Maxwell. To me, that is really a stretch. You're talking about a guy that receives tons of tweets every day and I'm sure he misses many. Not to mention I'm sure he doesn't even take the time to read everything on his timeline/mentions and fully comprehend it.
It certainly seems that other individuals were sort of...upset by Mr. Duncan's blog and expressed it publicly but it doesn't seem that there is a whole lot of legitimate evidence that the church leadership knew of the extent to which Mr. Maxwell had taken it, allegedly.
I don't really know what happened but I think sometimes we, as a society, are so quick to judge cases/situations when we really don't know the fully story. Not to mention, hell people make mistakes. I make them every single day.
It certainly seems like Mr. Maxwell took it to the extreme but, beyond him, I'm just not sure the evidence is there that anyone else that works @ NewSpring knew the full extent to which Mr. Maxwell was pursuing all of this...maybe I'm wrong/missing something.
I would be willing to bet that all involved sort of wish that they hadn't gone down the path they went down and certainly would take it back if they could.
Once again I could certainly be missing something but it would seem to me that the filed lawsuit would contain the MOST factual/objective information from the filer because you can't just add in random verbiage that espouses things you can't really prove...not all of it...but perhaps the MOST.
Just my $.02
This post was edited on 4/17 4:48 PM by clemsonu0219
However, I have read the filed lawsuit and it certainly seems that some of the information in the blog is embellished and Mr. Duncan's attorney didn't even see it worthy of filing in the lawsuit.
According to the lawsuit, they allege that Perry Noble (for example) should have known that this was going on b/c he was tweeted @ two times by a parody account created by Mr. Maxwell. To me, that is really a stretch. You're talking about a guy that receives tons of tweets every day and I'm sure he misses many. Not to mention I'm sure he doesn't even take the time to read everything on his timeline/mentions and fully comprehend it.
It certainly seems that other individuals were sort of...upset by Mr. Duncan's blog and expressed it publicly but it doesn't seem that there is a whole lot of legitimate evidence that the church leadership knew of the extent to which Mr. Maxwell had taken it, allegedly.
I don't really know what happened but I think sometimes we, as a society, are so quick to judge cases/situations when we really don't know the fully story. Not to mention, hell people make mistakes. I make them every single day.
It certainly seems like Mr. Maxwell took it to the extreme but, beyond him, I'm just not sure the evidence is there that anyone else that works @ NewSpring knew the full extent to which Mr. Maxwell was pursuing all of this...maybe I'm wrong/missing something.
I would be willing to bet that all involved sort of wish that they hadn't gone down the path they went down and certainly would take it back if they could.
Once again I could certainly be missing something but it would seem to me that the filed lawsuit would contain the MOST factual/objective information from the filer because you can't just add in random verbiage that espouses things you can't really prove...not all of it...but perhaps the MOST.
Just my $.02
This post was edited on 4/17 4:48 PM by clemsonu0219
If they settled out of court with the blog writer (who happens to be a professor and thus a respectable member of society) and the blogs still up. How can the impression not be that he was totally in the right and that Newspring simply conceded there best move was to give him hush money so further PR damage did not occur.
I would tend to agree with you. Generally, if there is any sort of libel or slander, removal of said libel or slander is included in any settlement...yet the blog still stands. This has to be troubling to any NS members, it certainly would be to me.
More from the blog:
"Jackasses"
Did NS or any of the affiliates file a lawsuit for slander/libel? Also, does anyone have a link to the settlement?
This post was edited on 4/17 5:13 PM by clemsonu0219
Not sure. Here is what I found from the same blog...it appears that NS did indeed say what he blogged was false, but I have no idea whether they sued for slander or libel. Whether they sued and lost, or didn't sue at all because they knew they wouldn't win, or simply didn't bother, the fact that the blog still stands appears to be somewhat telling.
Lawsuit
" Also, most every public school allows their students/faculty to
practice whatever religion they want...it's called freedom of religion."
Bull fvcking shit.
practice whatever religion they want...it's called freedom of religion."
Bull fvcking shit.
yep i guess i worded that wrong
but lvng in fancy houses and driving fancy cars wouldnt be jesus like
letting kids in school starve in your neighborhood bcause u are against free lunches or breakfasts for the poor
but i grew up with perry
spent 6 years 7-12 grade with him
he was weird as hell but he was a nice guy
but lvng in fancy houses and driving fancy cars wouldnt be jesus like
letting kids in school starve in your neighborhood bcause u are against free lunches or breakfasts for the poor
but i grew up with perry
spent 6 years 7-12 grade with him
he was weird as hell but he was a nice guy
Trading, I do appreciate your enthusiasm and your commitment to the Clemson program because you literally provide a level of enthusiasm that I do seek out your posts and responses.
That said, your blind allegiance to NS is quite disturbing but I'm in no position to judge others. Even though you are tithing your hard-earned money, wouldn't you at least want to know that the money you are giving is being put to good use? You seem like a very smart, articulate person, how can you just blindly give to someone or an organization? If you aren't that concerned, though, why don't you just take your money and give to the homeless local shelter, soup kitchen, boys club...
What is it specifically that makes you want to give your money to NS?
As a Christian, I'm struck that this thread has dominated the conversation on Maundy Thursday, when Jesus instituted leadership in His church and also washed His disciples' feet to serve as example for humility.
I will certainly answer your question, but it's getting late and I can't give the answer the time it deserves. I'll reply tomorrow.
LOL, not bragging at all, it's really not anything to brag about honestly. To you and many others, yes, a Corvette is extravagant, and to be quite honest, I bought it before I became as strong of a Christian as I am now and I regret it sometimes. But seriously, I pass at least 50 BMWs, MBs, F250/350, Audis, and other cars on my way to work each morning that cost more than my car did. My house is very modest. As a percentage of income, I spent way more than average on the vette and way less than average on my house.
If "bragging" is what you got from my post, you need to think a little deeper. It's not about what I have at all. If Perry Noble makes as much money as some of the figures thrown around ITT, then he's the most humble person in the world and he saves 99.99% of it for retirement or gives it away. I don't believe that, just like I don't believe he makes as much money as some people think.
People look at the total income, and they look at the percentage that is spent on staff salary, but they have no clue, nor do they care about exactly how many people Newspring employs. They think Perry gets all that money. It's the height of ignorance.
Newspring, Elevation, and their buddies are 110% about money. They hide where their money goes, refuse to release how much they pay their leaders, and demand money and preach about it in every single service. I've been to many churches and it blows my mind how often Newspring/Elevation preach on money. There's a video where you can see Perry saying "seek first the Kingdom of God" is a scripture that is 100% related to giving your church money. How that even makes sense I'll never know. It is false witness as he has extremely wild interpretations of the bible to fit his wants. He has said people's cars break down, children get sick, there's homosexuals, and that people can't get a job because they don't give the church enough money and that if they started giving money all of those things would stop and we'd have less homosexuals. Those things happen because they have crappy cars, kids in bad shape, and not a good enough resume not because they don't give enough money to church. He has preached many times about how even if you can't afford to pay your bills you need to give money to church and that God will take care of you. Prosperity preaching is a joke and is not remotely close to true.
Newspring spent over 180 grand marketing and buying copies of Perry's first book to falsely put it on the NYT best seller's list. They admit as much. They falsely claim that every dollar went to the church. The church used tax exempt money to promote and support their pastor commercially which is illegal. They claim 100% of the money given to Perry for his speaking engagements go the church. Of course it does. That funnels it through tax free and goes back to him tax free through housing money and his insane food and travel budget among other things. Shady accounting at its finest.
If you like your tithes going towards trips for the pastor and his friends to eat at Sullivans, buy coffee, trips to Disney World, Boston, trips to the holy land every year and just so he can baptize his daughter in the Jordan River, trips to Atlanta just because Perry is hungry and wants a specific restaurant there, etc then Newspring is the place for you. Sure they do some good things too but a large portion of their tithes are put to use as wastefully as possible. They don't do anything good without making a giant show out of it and then lying about how 100% of their money goes to things like that. Perry makes way more than enough money he should be able to pay for his own food for his friends and his own trips yet the church picks up the tab every time and every service starts out with a guest speaker telling you how much you'll be blessed by giving the church the 10% that is rightfully theirs and claiming it was never yours in the first place.
I'll keep my trips to the ATM machine at the bank and skip out on the ones located in NS
Newspring spent over 180 grand marketing and buying copies of Perry's first book to falsely put it on the NYT best seller's list. They admit as much. They falsely claim that every dollar went to the church. The church used tax exempt money to promote and support their pastor commercially which is illegal. They claim 100% of the money given to Perry for his speaking engagements go the church. Of course it does. That funnels it through tax free and goes back to him tax free through housing money and his insane food and travel budget among other things. Shady accounting at its finest.
If you like your tithes going towards trips for the pastor and his friends to eat at Sullivans, buy coffee, trips to Disney World, Boston, trips to the holy land every year and just so he can baptize his daughter in the Jordan River, trips to Atlanta just because Perry is hungry and wants a specific restaurant there, etc then Newspring is the place for you. Sure they do some good things too but a large portion of their tithes are put to use as wastefully as possible. They don't do anything good without making a giant show out of it and then lying about how 100% of their money goes to things like that. Perry makes way more than enough money he should be able to pay for his own food for his friends and his own trips yet the church picks up the tab every time and every service starts out with a guest speaker telling you how much you'll be blessed by giving the church the 10% that is rightfully theirs and claiming it was never yours in the first place.
I'll keep my trips to the ATM machine at the bank and skip out on the ones located in NS
LOL did you sign up for TI just to post ITT? I noticed it was your first post.
Seriously, though, and this is for everyone, is PN even an ordained minister? Did he attend seminary anywhere? Sorry if this has already been addressed.
How do you know how much goes to salaries? There is no breakdown that I saw. Staffing can mean a lot of things and operations can include stuff like expense accounts, housing allowances, etc..
Now I am not saying he makes too much, because I don't know. What I do know is that the annual report they put online doesn't tell you anything. Unless there were notes I missed that explained exactly what was in each category.
This post was edited on 4/17 11:39 PM by The89Tiger
After reading this, it's clear that you have no idea what you're talking about and just have some axe to grind. Can you PROVE any of your ridiculous claims about how that money is spent? I highly doubt it. And, for the record, there are no ATMs at Newspring, chief.
I was a member for years and signed up about a month before signing day so no I didn't. Newspring and churches like it are not churches so I decided to post. Perry is not an ordained minister and never attended seminary. He's a self absorbed moron who has blindly led his followers to thinking being a christian and being blessed is all about how well you tithe. For the Newspring sheep who respond save your breath. Every single service he repeats over and over on how your problems will start to go away and you'll be blessed if you tithe to Newspring. He over and over and over repeats how God can handle your finances better than you can so you need to give your money to God. The I love my church shirts are a mockery. The church should promote loving Jesus and the bible not loving Newspring and Perry. Perry thinks he's a god like figure and newspring "owners" treat him as such. They don't dare question him and go nuts when someone else questions the church. It's hilarious really and they only act like that due to how often Perry himself makes fun of people who don't agree with Newspring. They're just sheep taking after their leader. The worst part of it all is they are so blind they don't realize it. He even preached about how it isn't about giving the tithe but BRINGING THE TITHE yet he has atm like machines and you can give online. That isn't bringing the tithe Perry.
The main part that kills me is he used to over and over beat people over the head with how 100% goes to missions. How does 100% of the tithe go to missions when he has 2 24/7 body guards, eats expensively while paying for all his friends that go with him all the time using church funds, travel nonstop all around the country using church money even for family trips, etc? The dude wastes money like it's nothing because he can freely spend the church's money and through his words and how often he makes fun of people who question him nobody dares to do so.
The accounting practices at NS are unethical as it gets. Perry gives every dollar he makes elsewhere to the church and they funnel it right back to him to avoid taxes. He then brags about how he gives it to the church like he is doing a good thing.
I don't see how the people who go there read the bible and claim to be christians while worshipping Perry who constantly bashes anyone who doesn't go to Newspring and constantly calls people who don't agree with the church jackasses, idiots, and morons. That isn't Christian behavior in the least. Newspring is just a platform for crazy Perry to spew his outlandish interpretations of scripture that are often extremely far fetched. He'll take scripture talking about something entirely different with no ties to money and claim that scripture has to do with tithing. He then will constantly say "you don't want to get into a bible debate with me...you'll lose" even though many in his church and most of his detractors have done more bible study than he has. He does sometimes have good services and good points but he ruins every single one of them with his greed and obsession with people tithing. In Perry's mind or else just in his greed he can somehow try to tie every single piece of scripture into giving money to the church. No other church I've ever heard of outside of the churches his friends have come close to the money grabbing crap Perry preaches.
I invite all NS "owners" to go sit in another church's service and think of HUGE difference in money talks at that church. It's insane.
Perry blatantly tells his members they aren't important enough to take his time or get to know him yet constantly brags about his vacations, some great food he just ate in Boston or Chicago, his great Disney trips, how proud he is that he could use the church's money to take his daughter and baptize her in the Jordan river, etc. He has tons of time to waste on travelling around the world but God forbid he give a simple phone call to a sick "owner".
I'd venture a good guess that Dabo is literally 100 times busier than Perry and is not a preacher yet how many stories do we hear of him visiting sick Clemson fans he has never met in the hospital?
You may want to look around next time you go the credit card machines are most definitely there. I've been there "chief". Like I said in my last post above. Perry's constant bashing and laughing at his detractors has made his owners do the same. I've been to NS many times with dates. I lived a few doors down from Perry before moving out of the parent's house. One of his campus pastors is one of my best friends. I can take you to a coffee shop where NS staff has a tab and the same goes for Sullivans. NewSpringEverett...what a cute name. Of course you'd get all upset. Have you never thought with all the people questioning Newspring's money use and all the people that have come out saying they have seen and know places where NS/Perry wastes money that if they weren't hiding something that they'd release their books???? Why take on all the criticism they do while still refusing to be open about where the money actually goes. Try going to a normal church and see if they'll refuse to open their budget to a member. Won't happen. They'll tell you where every dollar went. NS can't and wont' do that. Do you ever wonder why? I'd hope it would at least cross your mind unless you really are just a blind follower.
This post was edited on 4/18 1:00 AM by kylebw
This post was edited on 4/18 1:00 AM by kylebw
The great part about NS is that the responses to anything at all critical of NS are the exact same every time. They're taught by Perry and his sheep repeat them. Everyone doesn't know what they're talking about and has an axe to grind. They never have any proof. That's right the church refuses to give its own "owners" proof. The proof is in the fact I can take you to multiple places where Perry has tabs and routinely takes large groups. The proof is in the fact that he drives much nicer vehicles than he himself owns. The proof is in NS admits they pay for all his trips when he clearly makes enough money to do so on his own. The proof is in he gives every dollar he makes elsewhere back to NS and they funnel it back to him. Common sense much?
Which campuses have you been to that have ATM machines? I doubt you could actually take me anywhere that Perry has a running tab that's paid for with the church's money. That's cute how you took my handle and made up a nickname--very creative. And to some of the other claims you've made ITT, Perry doesn't have bodyguards and he did go to Seminary, although he didn't finish, something he's never hidden. But keep making up lies to fit your agenda.
newspring "owners" do not question anything due to how often Perry and his staff mock and blast any and all that question them. They somehow act like he's some amazing man of God while witnessing him make fun of other churches and any and all that don't agree with him every single Sunday. A true man of God would not do any of that. A true man of God would not tell his "owners" that they can't dare question him. A true man of God would not tell his congregation to not dare question him on the bible or discuss it with him "because you'll lose". It's all just hilarious.
The members (I feel stupid calling people owners who have nothing to do with owning the church and aren't even allowed to know a single thing about the church's finances) have been washed to believe that NS is perfect and a true NS member would never question Perry. They've been led to believe that it is their duty to attack and make fun of anyone who doesn't agree with Newspring (Perry tells his service to attack and make fun of people who don't like NS and calls his detractors all kinds of names...seriously what kind of preacher openly calls their detractors "jackasses"??????). NONE of that is Godly and NONE of that is becoming of a Christian. PERIOD. Bash my posts all you want NewSpringEverret and the rest of the NSpringers but there's no refuting simple facts.
Lol I read through the thread and there's Perry's famous "axe to grind" response once again. listen buddy you need help. Furtick is the ultimate douchebag and he has admitted the church built his ridiculous house for him. There's also proof since you seem to like that showing he and Perry are only "bestsellers" because their churches bought up tens of thousands of copies of their books to fabricate them being best sellers. Furtick by his word doesn't make money off of his books but we all know he and Perry get that money funneled through the church and then back to them to avoid taxes.
Furtick like Perry claims all of his extra money he makes goes back to the church. Common sense and many stories out there show it is just done that way to avoid taxes but if he was the great man you claim him to be then his only money would be that coming from the church. Yet somehow he has all these millions to toss around.
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