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It is a beautiful day in South Carolina.

The flag shouldn't fly in front of the state house imo. However, people acting like this is such a monumental day in our state are so potato it's sad. Taking the flag down is only going to maginfy it is a sign of hatred for those who view it is as such.

It does nothing for those of us who could care less. I've been a South Carolinian my entire life and that flag doesn't represent me or my heritage. But, it seems that everyone has a different point of view of what it means. I grew up thinking it meant F the establishment/big government, etc and something cool the duke boys had on top of their car. It's usage as a symbol by hate groups such as the clan are what truly hurts its image and I can get that. It's a shame, because its a really cool looking flag.

The most sickening part of this whole matter is how some politicians are jumping all over this and using it as a platform to promote themselves. I have nothing but unadulterated empathy for the families who lost loved ones in Charleston, but the pen deal was just absurd.
 
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Bullshit.

A poll taken last November showed 61% of black South Carolinians wanted it to be removed. You can reasonably conclude that all 61% of those aren't offended by it, they just wanted it taken down.

Also 27% of black South Carolinians said to keep it up.

It is not clear and dry as you, and many others, think it is.
 
According to a new CNN/ORC Poll - Questions about how far to go to remove references to the Confederacy from public life prompt broad racial divides.

The poll shows that 57% of Americans see the flag more as a symbol of Southern pride than as a symbol of racism, about the same as in 2000 when 59% said they viewed it as a symbol of pride. Opinions of the flag are sharply divided by race, and among whites, views are split by education.

Among African-Americans, 72% see the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism, just 25% of whites agree. In the South, the racial divide is even broader. While 75% of Southern whites describe the flag as a symbol of pride and 18% call it a symbol of racism, those figures are almost exactly reversed among Southern African-Americans, with just 11% seeing it as a sign of pride and 75% viewing it as a symbol of racism.

Among whites, there's a sharp divide by education, and those with more formal education are less apt to see the flag as a symbol of pride. Among whites with a college degree, 51% say it's a symbol of pride, 41% one of racism. Among those whites who do not have a college degree, 73% say it's a sign of Southern pride, 18% racism.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2015/images/07/01/confederate.flag.pdf

Also from the poll good news for all the slippery slope fans as 29% of Americans (basically same for black/white) want to rename streets and monuments after Confederate Leaders. Literally nobody wants to rename the Washington or Jefferson Monuments.
 
A poll taken last November showed 61% of black South Carolinians wanted it to be removed. You can reasonably conclude that all 61% of those aren't offended by it, they just wanted it taken down.

Also 27% of black South Carolinians said to keep it up.

It is not clear and dry as you, and many others, think it is.
How many people did they poll?
 
According to a new CNN/ORC Poll - Questions about how far to go to remove references to the Confederacy from public life prompt broad racial divides.

The poll shows that 57% of Americans see the flag more as a symbol of Southern pride than as a symbol of racism, about the same as in 2000 when 59% said they viewed it as a symbol of pride. Opinions of the flag are sharply divided by race, and among whites, views are split by education.

Among African-Americans, 72% see the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism, just 25% of whites agree. In the South, the racial divide is even broader. While 75% of Southern whites describe the flag as a symbol of pride and 18% call it a symbol of racism, those figures are almost exactly reversed among Southern African-Americans, with just 11% seeing it as a sign of pride and 75% viewing it as a symbol of racism.

Among whites, there's a sharp divide by education, and those with more formal education are less apt to see the flag as a symbol of pride. Among whites with a college degree, 51% say it's a symbol of pride, 41% one of racism. Among those whites who do not have a college degree, 73% say it's a sign of Southern pride, 18% racism.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2015/images/07/01/confederate.flag.pdf

Also from the poll good news for all the slippery slope fans as 29% of Americans (basically same for black/white) want to rename streets and monuments after Confederate Leaders. Literally nobody wants to rename the Washington or Jefferson Monuments.
So uneducated people see it as pride?
 
So uneducated people see it as pride?

According to the poll uneducated whites are the flags biggest supporters.

You do typically see them outside trailer parks, NASCAR races and on embarrassing vehicles in addition to Willy-Brice and typically do not see them at farmer's markets, on hybrid vehicle or at marathons in addition to Death Valley, so that tends to back-up that poll.
 
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Until this mess started I honestly forgot it was up there.

I understand removing it. I think it was probably the right call and I am completely okay with it. But does it REALLY impact anyone's life that much?

What's gonna be hilarious is when people figure out that removing it didn't miraculously fix the problems in SC - racial or otherwise.

In terms of forgetting it was up there, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't a part of the reason it became an issue again because the US & SC flags were flown at half staff at the statehouse after the AME murders but the confederate flag was still flying high above the monument? Apparently it is because of law however even though it was not intended that way, I'm sure it came across as a slap in the face to those mourning the victims, a defiant act even. I'm sure people will say that's not their problem that people didn't understand why it was still flying high but this is a flag that apparently was first flown by SC over the statehouse as an F You to the Civil Rights Movement and it seemed like an F You following the murders.

I agree that it won't solve racial issues. People are going to be racists no matter what changes, there's enough evidence on this board of that.
 
[QUOTE="kgwillison, post: 239001, member: 7730"]When the ACC baseball championships and an NCAA championship or two return to South Carolina, you will see that there are benefits to this change. I think the nation's views on South Carolina are more positive because of this change. Maybe I see that more clearly because I don't live in the state.

No, racism won't end overnight. The public schools won't suddenly get better. Jobs won't suddenly be more plentiful. Still, it is a step in the right direction.

Who ever suggested that "removing it WOULD miraculously fix the problems in SC?" But if it is the right thing to do, just do the right thing without expectation of miracles.[/QUOTE]

SC may get a NCAA regional but lol at ACC baseball champs in SC. Swoffy's going to make sure all that stays in Tobacco Road. Maybe we'll get a women's basketball or women's soccer champ.

It's funny how you think it's really going to make a difference as to all these sporting events, especially those run by the ACC front office. And, typical ACC, more worried about peripheral BS than getting their butts together on the ACC network, getting ND as a full member and not just a gigolo in the conference, and stopping the conflicts of interest and blatant academic fraud at a charter ACC school and the ACC brass.
 
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I don't really care either way, but it is amazing how many MORE rebel flags I have seen flying around the last few days here in Georgia.

Be careful what comes next...one day they will want to change the town / school name of our Tigers.
Really, who are "They"!
 
It's pretty sunny out. Not too many clouds. If there was a bit of a breeze it would be a bit nicer, but I suppose I can't really complain. Overall, yes, relatively beautiful day in South Carolina but what in the hell does that have to do with anything?
 
According to the poll uneducated whites are the flags biggest supporters.

You do typically see them outside trailer parks, NASCAR races and on embarrassing vehicles in addition to Willy-Brice and typically do not see them at farmer's markets, on hybrid vehicle or at marathons in addition to Death Valley, so that tends to back-up that poll.

Not refuting this...but, there is a Prius in my neighborhood that has a confederate flag front license plate. Always have to do a double take when I pass it.
 
A poll taken last November showed 61% of black South Carolinians wanted it to be removed. You can reasonably conclude that all 61% of those aren't offended by it, they just wanted it taken down.

Also 27% of black South Carolinians said to keep it up.

It is not clear and dry as you, and many others, think it is.

I don't see any basis upon which to base a claim that 12% of black South Carolinians wanted to remove the Confederate Flag but weren't offended by it. Doesn't make much sense prima facie, either.
 
It did not offend MOST black South Carolinians.
Now This Is The Absolute Funniest Comment In The History Of Thread! Test your theory - Go into any predominantely Black Community In SC or Any state in the U.S. with that Flag & conduct your survey - then post your result! & I pray for your safety!
 
Do you think the Indians are offended by the American flag that took their land from them and killed the ones that wouldn't leave?

Or the Japanese who were interned during WW2, some of which lost their land and homes?
 
In terms of forgetting it was up there, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't a part of the reason it became an issue again because the US & SC flags were flown at half staff at the statehouse after the AME murders but the confederate flag was still flying high above the monument? Apparently it is because of law however even though it was not intended that way, I'm sure it came across as a slap in the face to those mourning the victims, a defiant act even. I'm sure people will say that's not their problem that people didn't understand why it was still flying high but this is a flag that apparently was first flown by SC over the statehouse as an F You to the Civil Rights Movement and it seemed like an F You following the murders.

I agree that it won't solve racial issues. People are going to be racists no matter what changes, there's enough evidence on this board of that.

I don't remember the exact reason. One reason could be that the flag is not an official flag of the state or nation, so it does not have to follow the flag code - and putting it at half mast gives it the appearance of some responsibility for what happened. There may also be a legal issue. That said, I would not have objected had they put it at half mast.

And the removal doesn't bother me. What does bother me is that everyone who owns a Confederate flag, or ever has, is now being made out to be a racist. The flag did not cause what happened, and removing it will not fix anything.

I thought they also said it can't go to half mast, but judging by the way it was lowered I guess it can.

Honestly - I think Haley WANTED attention brought to it so she could have it removed - and make a big show of it.

Here is a good one though - a Democrat (Fritz Hollings) put the flag up there. And a Republican (Haley) took it down.
 
The habitually offended of which you seem familiar with.
Oh you mean hard working, service to country - US Navy, small business owner, college educated, Voter, 31 years married to the same woman, Christian American! Yep very familiar with "Them/They!"
 
Jim hodges, Joe Reilly and David Beasley apparently were there for the signing yesterday by Nikki Haley. I wonder if Fritz Hollings, who was behind putting the flag up in the first place, was there?

Also, I just looked at the pictures from those attending today....sweet Moses of Jeresulem....talk about a freak show on both sides. It looked like photos from the state fair. You could have made a killing today with a funnel cake cart and a cooler of mountain dew.
 
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According to the poll uneducated whites are the flags biggest supporters.

You do typically see them outside trailer parks, NASCAR races and on embarrassing vehicles in addition to Willy-Brice and typically do not see them at farmer's markets, on hybrid vehicle or at marathons in addition to Death Valley, so that tends to back-up that poll.
To be fair, not having them on Priuses should be a major pride point for any symbol.
 
Jim hodges, Joe Reilly and David Beasley apparently were there for the signing yesterday by Nikki Haley. I wonder if Fritz Hollings, who was behind putting the flag up in the first place, was there?

Also, I just looked at the pictures from those attending today....sweet Moses of Jeresulem....talk about a freak show on both sides. It looked like photos from the state fair. You could have made a killing today with a funnel cake cart and a cooler of mountain dew.
I doubt Hollings has three marbles in his head right now. Not that he ever did but I met him about 10 years ago and he was showing signs of dementia.
 
According to the poll uneducated whites are the flags biggest supporters.

You do typically see them outside trailer parks, NASCAR races and on embarrassing vehicles in addition to Willy-Brice and typically do not see them at farmer's markets, on hybrid vehicle or at marathons in addition to Death Valley, so that tends to back-up that poll.

What the polls don't show is most of the Rebel flag memorabilia sold in this state is to Northerners. Gift store owners in Hilton Head and Charleston have told me on numerous occasions that people from the North continually buy the Rebel (Battle Flag) gifts. I would imagine a lot of the people who were buying it had no idea what it was.
 
Taking down one dang flag caused about 10,000 more to pop up on vehicles all across Upstate SC. Less than 5% of the states population passed the one in Columbia. I have passed 4 today.
 
Taking down one dang flag caused about 10,000 more to pop up on vehicles all across Upstate SC. Less than 5% of the states population passed the one in Columbia. I have passed 4 today.

Same concept with guns. whenever they bring up legislation, people run out and stock up on guns and ammo. After Sandy Hook, you couldnt even find ammo.

I don't really care one way or the other about removing the flag, but the whole situation was retarded.
 
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The "take it down because it's the right thing to do" crowd cracks me up. It's also the right thing to do to care about black on black crime, but you guys are silent. It's also the right thing to do to attempt to reinstate the black family, but you guys are silent about 73% fatherless rate. We could go on and on. You guys only care about doing the right thing when you feel that a minority is being oppressed by white people. Other than that, you don't give a damn about what the right thing is, because that would involve having tough conversation.

I'm for taking the flag down, but you holier than thou blowhards are weak as eater when it comes to addressing tough issues. Taking the flag down is easy, so you weaklings are all about it.
 
To follow the trend, Memphis city council is motioning to remove Nathaniel Bedford Forrest and his wife's remains from their resting place underneath his monument in a public park: Anti-Confederate Hysteria

It doesn't bother me that the flag was taken down at the state house, but where is the appropriate line drawn?
 
Oh you mean hard working, service to country - US Navy, small business owner, college educated, Voter, 31 years married to the same woman, Christian American! Yep very familiar with "Them/They!"

Guys like you usually aren't so sensitive but other than that,you're my kind of guy.
 
The "take it down because it's the right thing to do" crowd cracks me up. It's also the right thing to do to care about black on black crime, but you guys are silent. It's also the right thing to do to attempt to reinstate the black family, but you guys are silent about 73% fatherless rate. We could go on and on. You guys only care about doing the right thing when you feel that a minority is being oppressed by white people. Other than that, you don't give a damn about what the right thing is, because that would involve having tough conversation.

I'm for taking the flag down, but you holier than thou blowhards are weak as eater when it comes to addressing tough issues. Taking the flag down is easy, so you weaklings are all about it.


Who is the "you guys" you speak of?

I'm white and I tutor in a 100 percent minority middle school because I want to see minority kids get a better education. By the way, it is a private Catholic school and 100 percent of the kids aren't Catholic. Never mind that. The families pay about $10 a month for this private education and the students get breakfast, lunch and dinner at the school. The rest of the funds are contributed by people who care about the less fortunate. I do it because these kids are working hard in school and getting into top-notch high schools in Washington, DC and then going on to colleges. Educated blacks (and whites, and Latinos) are a lot less likely to kill one another because they won't have to live lives of poverty.

I am also concerned about the fatherless rate. But not just the fatherless rate of black kids. Did you know that a majority of births to white mothers (who are not college educated) are to non-married white mothers? Do you care about this? What are you doing to change this or improve the lives of these kids?

So put your broad brush away ("you guys", "they," etc.) and speak for yourself and your own experiences. Maybe we can have a legitimate, decent conversation about the struggles Americans of every race and creed face today.
 
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When the ACC baseball championships and an NCAA championship or two return to South Carolina, you will see that there are benefits to this change. I think the nation's views on South Carolina are more positive because of this change. Maybe I see that more clearly because I don't live in the state.

No, racism won't end overnight. The public schools won't suddenly get better. Jobs won't suddenly be more plentiful. Still, it is a step in the right direction.

Who ever suggested that "removing it WOULD miraculously fix the problems in SC?" But if it is the right thing to do, just do the right thing without expectation of miracles.

I'm not sure how old you are, but the original steps in the right direction were taken in 1964 and more than $30T ago. Race relations has been pissing up a rope since then. NOT because the incredible majority of "We the People" don't want it, but because the formula our Government Leaders use isn't meant to solve it but to placate us. Money and power, whether political, large Corporate, foreign, banking, etc. have no interest in solving it....too much money and power involved.
 
Who is the "you guys" you speak of?

I'm white and I tutor in a 100 percent minority middle school because I want to see minority kids get a better education. By the way, it is a private Catholic school and 100 percent of the kids aren't Catholic. Never mind that. The families pay about $10 a month for this private education and the students get breakfast, lunch and dinner at the school. The rest of the funds are contributed by people who care about the less fortunate. I do it because these kids are working hard in school and getting into top-notch high schools in Washington, DC and then going on to colleges. Educated blacks (and whites, and Latinos) are a lot less likely to kill one another because they won't have to live lives of poverty.

I am also concerned about the fatherless rate. But not just the fatherless rate of black kids. Did you know that a majority of births to white mothers (who are not college educated) are to non-married white mothers? Do you care about this? What are you doing to change this or improve the lives of these kids?

So put your broad brush away ("you guys", "they," etc.) and speak for yourself and your own experiences. Maybe we can have a legitimate, decent conversation about the struggles Americans of every race and creed face today.
And yet you still take the time to slam Clemson, our place in the ACC athletically, our state in just about everything, how the SEC is superior just because it takes in more money, how certain coaches will never look at CU for a job, because, the SEC is better.

That SC residents pale in comparison to out of state students because, well, they were educated in SC.

Ahh, the elitists' altruism. It's so fun to see one in person. Wow. A catholic school admitting non Catholics, yea, we have none of those here. People worried & caring about teenagers making babies, yea, few care about that here (sarcastic) But, they are sure caring about a flag.

That was the point, moron. Too many politicians are more worried about flags, monuments, & street names than actual issues. But, you, like most of the leaders here, want to blame the monuments & the people who actually pay these "leaders" salaries. You sound just like them. Hey, ____politician, what can we do about ___. Politician, "It's a great day in SC, why don't YOU do something, I've got a golf game, a woman to sleep with, a social party to honor __."

Go do your "good" in DC but I'm sure you have to get your Charleston fix in soon.
 
According to a new CNN/ORC Poll - Questions about how far to go to remove references to the Confederacy from public life prompt broad racial divides.

The poll shows that 57% of Americans see the flag more as a symbol of Southern pride than as a symbol of racism, about the same as in 2000 when 59% said they viewed it as a symbol of pride. Opinions of the flag are sharply divided by race, and among whites, views are split by education.

Among African-Americans, 72% see the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism, just 25% of whites agree. In the South, the racial divide is even broader. While 75% of Southern whites describe the flag as a symbol of pride and 18% call it a symbol of racism, those figures are almost exactly reversed among Southern African-Americans, with just 11% seeing it as a sign of pride and 75% viewing it as a symbol of racism.

Among whites, there's a sharp divide by education, and those with more formal education are less apt to see the flag as a symbol of pride. Among whites with a college degree, 51% say it's a symbol of pride, 41% one of racism. Among those whites who do not have a college degree, 73% say it's a sign of Southern pride, 18% racism.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2015/images/07/01/confederate.flag.pdf

Also from the poll good news for all the slippery slope fans as 29% of Americans (basically same for black/white) want to rename streets and monuments after Confederate Leaders. Literally nobody wants to rename the Washington or Jefferson Monuments.

I see this info in two ways. One is that I don't really care what the rest of America thinks SC should. The other is that this basically validates my belief that it was wrong to take the flag down. Clearly, the flag does not represent hate based on this poll. However, you have a minority(as opposed to majority) viewpoint being PORTRAYED as the majority view. You have a legislature being coerced through political/media pressure to do something they don't believe in. All because everyone is just willingly accepts the premise that the flag represents hate.
 
Who is the "you guys" you speak of?

I'm white and I tutor in a 100 percent minority middle school because I want to see minority kids get a better education. By the way, it is a private Catholic school and 100 percent of the kids aren't Catholic. Never mind that. The families pay about $10 a month for this private education and the students get breakfast, lunch and dinner at the school. The rest of the funds are contributed by people who care about the less fortunate. I do it because these kids are working hard in school and getting into top-notch high schools in Washington, DC and then going on to colleges. Educated blacks (and whites, and Latinos) are a lot less likely to kill one another because they won't have to live lives of poverty.

I am also concerned about the fatherless rate. But not just the fatherless rate of black kids. Did you know that a majority of births to white mothers (who are not college educated) are to non-married white mothers? Do you care about this? What are you doing to change this or improve the lives of these kids?

So put your broad brush away ("you guys", "they," etc.) and speak for yourself and your own experiences. Maybe we can have a legitimate, decent conversation about the struggles Americans of every race and creed face today.


How would you feel if the LGBT crowd decided that everything Catholic should be removed from society since Catholic theology undeniably considers living a homosexual lifestyle to be a sin.? Its funny you never hear/see the media tout Catholics as bigots even though there is no question that if you are truly a Catholic you think the LGBT crowd are living sinful lives. Why would you say this double standard exists?
 
I don't know which media you read but there are plenty of people and media personalities who think Catholics are bigots given official Church views on homosexuality. But the beauty of the Church is reliance on your own conscience for many matters. I happen to disagree with my Church's teaching on homosexual relationships. Most Catholics I know do too. Call me less-Catholic if you want to; I'm comfortable with my decision and you will never hear anti-gay preaching at my parish anyway.

Besides, I'm not aware of anyone calling for the removal of all things Southern and that is the comparison you were aiming for.
 
KGWILLSON and ddot, you lose all credibility because you take pride in making this statement:

-Taking down the flag won't stop racist people from being racist.

But refuse to make this one:

-Taking down the flag won't fix the cultural problems that exist within the black community.

It shows your bias and immediately displays to everyone that, in your minds, oppression and perceived injustice are 100% to blame for minority issues.
 
And yet you still take the time to slam Clemson, our place in the ACC athletically, our state in just about everything, how the SEC is superior just because it takes in more money, how certain coaches will never look at CU for a job, because, the SEC is better.

That SC residents pale in comparison to out of state students because, well, they were educated in SC.

Ahh, the elitists' altruism. It's so fun to see one in person. Wow. A catholic school admitting non Catholics, yea, we have none of those here. People worried & caring about teenagers making babies, yea, few care about that here (sarcastic) But, they are sure caring about a flag.

That was the point, moron. Too many politicians are more worried about flags, monuments, & street names than actual issues. But, you, like most of the leaders here, want to blame the monuments & the people who actually pay these "leaders" salaries. You sound just like them. Hey, ____politician, what can we do about ___. Politician, "It's a great day in SC, why don't YOU do something, I've got a golf game, a woman to sleep with, a social party to honor __."

Go do your "good" in DC but I'm sure you have to get your Charleston fix in soon.

I'm not being critical of SC. I started this thread saying it is a great day in SC.

And I am proud of the state and its leaders!
KGWILLSON and ddot, you lose all credibility because you take pride in making this statement:

-Taking down the flag won't stop racist people from being racist.

But refuse to make this one:

-Taking down the flag won't fix the cultural problems that exist within the black community.

It shows your bias and immediately displays to everyone that, in your minds, oppression and perceived injustice are 100% to blame for minority issues.
KGWILLSON and ddot, you lose all credibility because you take pride in making this statement:

-Taking down the flag won't stop racist people from being racist.

But refuse to make this one:

-Taking down the flag won't fix the cultural problems that exist within the black community.

It shows your bias and immediately displays to everyone that, in your minds, oppression and perceived injustice are 100% to blame for minority issues.
Is that was removing the flag was supposed to do? I had no idea. I have never once heard ANYONE suggest that was the reason and that that would be the result. Learn something new every day. (I guess we never should have ended slavery or provided civil rights to all people either because, damn, they are still having problems.)

How about the cultural problems in the white community with men like the one who shot 9 black church-going people and the officer in North Charleston? Should we hold you accountable for them? Should I extrapolate from those instances that all non-college educated white men in SC are a danger to African Americans?

I just love how so many people want "blacks to fix the black community" yet disavow responsibility when a white person commits a crime.

Hey white guy, there's lots of work for all of us to do so let's get to it.
 
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