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The flag is coming down

The "what's next" argument is a pretty weak reason to keep it up and anyone who is against the flag coming down should put one up in your front yard. Then everyone can judge you the individual based on the flag and not an entire state. No personal freedoms have changed.
 
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I don't think it's so much the flag coming down guys...it's what happens next? Where does it end? If you really think this will end here then you're just fooling yourself...activists are never satisfied. Watch & see.

So South Carolina should leave the flag up, so that down the road 2-5-15 years from now some other Monument/Building Name might be questioned by activists? Why not just address that down the road?

Makes no sense. You should do X if X is a good idea. You shouldn't not do X because it is possible that it could lead to Y. You should just deal with Y when it comes up. If Y is a bad idea then don't do Y. X will lead to Y arguments are almost always dumb.
 
He knew he was on a sinking ship. Decided to throw up a ceremonial middle finger. I get it.

There is something to be said for losing with dignity. I guess nobody told him about the concept. This battle was lost (or won, depending on your view) weeks ago.

Honestly I had forgotten the damn thing was up there!

Every time I visit the statehouse or hear a report of their 'deliberation', I am embarrassed for them and every citizen of this state. Dysfunctional, myopic and clueless are the most common adjectives I find to describe our elected government officials.

I honestly doubt any other state is much different. And then think about our national government...

Interesting you think the US more of a democracy now. The US hasn't been a democracy in a long time, look at the electoral college as one proof because in a true democracy the voters would decide who was POTUS and would've decided, right or wrong, whether the flag should've stayed or not..

The US has never been a democracy and isn't supposed to be. It has always been a Constituional Republic with Democratically elected leaders. In a true democracy we would have to vote on every damn thing.

I don't care either way. I'm just glad this is the biggest issue SC has at it's feet. Now that this is settled ,we have no worries.

Yep - whole damn state is fixed now. No problems at all.

1clem ....you ever been to Laurens? You know home to the redneck shop/ white supremacy store..

Is that thing still there? I remember hearing about it but never went by there. I thought about it - I'm no white supremacist but more out of morbid curiosity.
 
That woman is nuts, and it showed.

Politicians are the stupidest class of people on earth.
A poll, conducted by Winthrop earlier this year, showed that 60% of South Carolinians wanted the flag to stay where it is. Yet Haley declared "We are unified"? What planet is she from, and who does she think she's pleasing.?
They evidently dont remember the turnover 15 years ago when it came off the dome.

Stupid politicians.
1) It was the right thing to do. The State needed to do something to express its gratitude / express its empathy for the victims families. If those people had gone down a path of racial hatred, which would have been completely justified, we would not be talking about Charleston strong. We would be seeing the National Guard move in on TV to stop the city from buring down.
2) Haley wants more than anything to be selected for the Republican VP slot. Her decisive handling of this issue has put on the short list.
 
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Actually, we were never a democracy.
Democracies are mobocracies- rule by mob majority.
Originally we were a Constitutional Republic, but now, unfortunately, we are only a republic, and this government will fail because of that fact.
We have the tyrant Lincoln to thank for that.
my original point is that we are approaching mobocracy right now, or at least keep tiptowing closer to the edge of one. i like the mobacracy term, wish I had led with it.
 
The flag should have never been on the state house or state house grounds to begin with. To me removing the flag is not the issue. The issue is where this country is headed with the reactionary PC police. I agree with the thought that you don't leave it up because what might happen next, but if you think the PC police will stop with that flag you are kidding yourself. Removing the flag from Fort Sumter, Wal-Mart and amazon stop selling the flag. TV Land removes Dukes of Hazard from its programing.
 
Pert's thoughts:

I don't really have a dog in this fight seeing as I come from a long line of Northern aristocrats. The types who built railroads and industry and made this country great. I don't have any ancestors who fought in the war, as I'm sure they had the funds to avoid the draft. I'm pretty proud of this. My ancestors did, however, own slaves, which of course makes me feel extremely guilty. It's a burden I carry daily.

Anywho, I did watch some of the highlights of the debate. Saw some guy frowning on the father of gynecology and wanting to remove his statue. Saw another talking about taking away the Confederate Memorial Day holiday. I'm against both of these ideas as I'm a fan of both.

Also, seemed to me Rep Horne was pms-ing pretty bad on her trip to crazy town. Either that or she was working on filling those campaign coffers. Crazy like a fox, IYAM.

Also, good to see Gary Clary get up and make an impassioned speech. I'm sure Gary Williams was somewhere wondering why Judge Clary couldn't have been so eloquent with him back in the day when he was heckling him unmercifully. Of course, there's a Supreme Court spot opening that the Judge may be eyeing too. You never know.

I'm really just glad it's over and all the problems of SC have now been solved.

Sent from my Apple Watch
 
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Do any of you know Jenny? She is a class act...she can be emotional, as many women can, but this whole situation ripped her heart out. She is a Liberty Fellow with me, and loves the people of SC as well as anyone I know. I got an email from her right after this happened, and her love for the people affected by the tragedy is amazing. I agree we have some stupid politicians, but she isn't one of them.
That woman is nuts, and it showed.

Politicians are the stupidest class of people on earth.
A poll, conducted by Winthrop earlier this year, showed that 60% of South Carolinians wanted the flag to stay where it is. Yet Haley declared "We are unified"? What planet is she from, and who does she think she's pleasing.?
They evidently dont remember the turnover 15 years ago when it came off the dome.

Stupid politicians.
 
Some thoughts:

I'm white, Christian, male. I think most Americans would rightly say that I have 3 things going for me to help me be successful. I don't know of any clubs that tried to keep me or forefathers from being a member because of those characteristics. No university discriminated against me. I've never felt threatened by law enforcement because of those 3 things. Never pulled over for Driving While White. No woman ever walked across the street to the other sidewalk because she saw a middle-aged white man walking down the street on her side.

If you want to cite Christians being discriminated against in the Middle East, go ahead. You'd be correct. But I would be hard pressed to say that I, even as a Catholic Christian have ever felt the wrath of people due to my faith.

South Carolina's governor and legislature are on the right side of history. And for those arguing that the governor did so only because she wants to be a VP candidate, I strongly disagree. When is the last time the Republicans looked South for a VP candidate? (Well, if you consider Texas a 'southern state,' you could cite GHWBush, but that isn't a part of Dixie.) Why would a presidential nominee select a running mate from a state that s/he is sure to win without that person on the ticket? You think there's ANY chance Hillary wins SC in Nov. 2016?
 
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I'm just pumped to get to go watch the NCAA basketball regionals in GRV or Columbia now!

This is one issue I've never cared about. It's a freaking flag! Doesn't change my life either way.
 
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Some thoughts:

I'm white, Christian, male. I think most Americans would rightly say that I have 3 things going for me to help me be successful. I don't know of any clubs that tried to keep me or forefathers from being a member because of those characteristics. No university discriminated against me. I've never felt threatened by law enforcement because of those 3 things. Never pulled over for Driving While White. No woman ever walked across the street to the other sidewalk because she saw a middle-aged white man walking down the street on her side.

If you want to cite Christians being discriminated against in the Middle East, go ahead. You'd be correct. But I would be hard pressed to say that I, even as a Catholic Christian have ever felt the wrath of people due to my faith.

South Carolina's governor and legislature are on the right side of history. And for those arguing that the governor did so only because she wants to be a VP candidate, I strongly disagree. When is the last time the Republicans looked South for a VP candidate? (Well, if you consider Texas a 'southern state,' you could cite GHWBush, but that isn't a part of Dixie.) Why would a presidential nominee select a running mate from a state that s/he is sure to win without that person on the ticket? You think there's ANY chance Hillary wins SC in Nov. 2016?


Yup .......13 years ago, my roommate was black. We were (and still are) very good friends, and during one of the summers we lived together he invited me to his family reunion. I of course went, not really thinking anything of it. His family reunion was huge!!!!! Probably 100-125 individuals and I was 1 of 3 white people that went. No one said anything too me directly, and everyone was all smiles to my face, but I could sense that 60% of the folks there probably couldve done without me there.

On the way home we talked about it, and my buddy apologized for the "older folks" in his family. I of course said "Oh I didnt mind" but then there was a silence and I couldnt help myself from asking ".....is that how you feel everyday?" My buddies response? "All the time."
 
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Your ex roommate is no longer black?
ha! Ya grammar fail. Too this day we call him Mocha Hulk. Dude is HUGE. In 2006 he came down to Clemson with me, and as we were walking to our seats he was stopped by two different folks who jokingly asked him if he had any eligibility left.
 
So South Carolina should leave the flag up, so that down the road 2-5-15 years from now some other Monument/Building Name might be questioned by activists? Why not just address that down the road?

Makes no sense. You should do X if X is a good idea. You shouldn't not do X because it is possible that it could lead to Y. You should just deal with Y when it comes up. If Y is a bad idea then don't do Y. X will lead to Y arguments are almost always dumb.
I agree. Somewhere 160 years ago the equivalent X then Y argument in regard to freeing the slaves probably went something like this... "I'm a good person and I am not so much opposed to the act of freeing slaves, but if we free them, the next thing you know, they will want to vote. And if we allow them to vote, the next thing you know they will want equal rights. And if we give them equal rights, next thing you know our kids will be going to school with them. And if our kids are in school with them the next thing you know they will be marrying them... and before you know it our president will be black."

Its really simple folks. If it's the right thing to do, do it. Don't look for excuses to keep from doing the right thing. Do whats right, then take the next step on the next issue and repeat the same course of action.
 
A true democracy where you vote on everything would be terrible.

1) It is impractical. Who wants to vote on 99.99% of the bills that happen daily.
2) People will vote for costly impractical ideas because it isn't their money.

California is a great example of #2. You can put Prop votes on the ballot rather easily and then the public votes for them. When I was there one was like Build High Speed Rail From San Fran to LA. People are like yeah I want rail that would be awesome, but don't realize where they $80 Billion is going to come from and vote YES. It was part of the reason Cali had such a huge budget deficit. People were always voting for Prop Votes like you can't raise Property Tax and Billions for Publicly Funded Stem Cell Research, etc.

Nationally votes would be like raise SSN payout and lower the age. We would be broke in 2 seconds.

Not that corrupt politicians are much better, but they are better.

#2 is in full effect already with our elected officials.
 
Once you start to paint over history you overstep a line....

Removing it from places like Ft. Sumter / Vicksburg / Gettysburg etc. attempts to re-write history. These are the places where the flag should fly, not as an endorsement but for purely historical purposes.

This type of political censorship by the mob is toxic to say the least.
 
Once you start to paint over history you overstep a line....

Removing it from places like Ft. Sumter / Vicksburg / Gettysburg etc. attempts to re-write history. These are the places where the flag should fly, not as an endorsement but for purely historical purposes.

This type of political censorship by the mob is toxic to say the least.

So the Nazi flag should fly in certain places as well?

I don't understand how not flying a certain flag is disrespectful or purposefully ignoring history. Why not just fly the state flag at these places...why not the American flag?
 
First off no history is being re-written history is to be studied, taught, and learned from. There is no way you can erase the history of the south or the event listed at those historical places. There in lies a problem in that line of thinking because if it was about the history so many wouldn't stand by idly and let idiots who give good southern folks bad names by letting that flag be represented by divisive actions, behavior and or ideologies. But that's just my take as a southern born gentleman.
 
In the wake of the anti-Confederate hysteria that swept the country following the heinous June 17 attack on a black church in Charleston that killed 9, California state senator Sen. Steve Glazer (D-Orinda) has put forward a bill to ban the use of Confederate names for “schools, buildings and other public facilities.”
 
Please note that first of all I gave locations of key battles / encounters during the Civil War. My concern is and continues to be that the social media / mob mentality will be used to change our history. If you don't believe it is / has not already begun then just poke around textbooks used to educate the masses. The new AP tests don't even cover the founders of our country ....

We have already had calls to take down / rename the Jefferson Memorial and the Washington Monument, they have moved to ban confederate battle flags from graves (even though the family put them there). I suggest that we ban everything that FDR did and touched as he was an anti-semite, or how about Woodrow Wilson, who was a Klansman and contributed to the production of "Birth of a Nation", or how about President Grant who was a slave owner himself... on and on.

History should not make anyone feel good or bad, it just exists. Grow up and live with it. Embrace it and focus on making the nation better instead or yelling fire in the crowd.
 
So the Nazi flag should fly in certain places as well?

I don't understand how not flying a certain flag is disrespectful or purposefully ignoring history. Why not just fly the state flag at these places...why not the American flag?

If you don't understand the difference between the two I feel sorry for you. BTW, I am for removing the flag.
 
In the wake of the anti-Confederate hysteria that swept the country following the heinous June 17 attack on a black church in Charleston that killed 9, California state senator Sen. Steve Glazer (D-Orinda) has put forward a bill to ban the use of Confederate names for “schools, buildings and other public facilities.”
are we seriously to believe california has been naming buildings after confederate generals and that legislation was required to stop this from happening further?
 
Please note that first of all I gave locations of key battles / encounters during the Civil War. My concern is and continues to be that the social media / mob mentality will be used to change our history. If you don't believe it is / has not already begun then just poke around textbooks used to educate the masses. The new AP tests don't even cover the founders of our country ....

We have already had calls to take down / rename the Jefferson Memorial and the Washington Monument, they have moved to ban confederate battle flags from graves (even though the family put them there). I suggest that we ban everything that FDR did and touched as he was an anti-semite, or how about Woodrow Wilson, who was a Klansman and contributed to the production of "Birth of a Nation", or how about President Grant who was a slave owner himself... on and on.

History should not make anyone feel good or bad, it just exists. Grow up and live with it. Embrace it and focus on making the nation better instead or yelling fire in the crowd.

Sorry, not embracing that part of my history. I'm not ignoring it, or trying to erase it, but that part of it won't be proudly on exhibit.

We are talking about a flag that was/is associated with slavery. Was is the "slavery flag"? No, but it's not a leap of logic for the two to be associated. I know that some of the "northerners", etc. also had slaves and that the "War of Northern Aggression" was about more than just that, but the fact that it is associated with slavery and is in the past is enough for me that it not be flown ANYWHERE. We are the state of South Carolina (different flag) in the USA (different flag). Put it in a museum along with all the other historical flags.

Furthermore, renaming monuments and all the other stuff you mention isn't really apples to apples as none of what you mentioned is associated with treating humans as anything other than equals. However, if your (or anyone else's) panties are in a wad about the name of a monument then start a movement, change the name, doesn't bother me in the least. I KNOW the history and changin a name won't change it. Just like taking the flags down/off of things won't change history.
 
If you don't understand the difference between the two I feel sorry for you. BTW, I am for removing the flag.

Wasn't saying they're equal.

They are both, however, historical flags that a lot of people associate with negative thoughts/memories/history.

The confederate flag is associated with slavery by about everybody in the world not white. Is that fair? Of course not, but so is ignoring that fact.
 
If good southern people didn't stand idly by while racist groups like the KKK, or any other loudmouth racists adopted the Confederate Flag as their symbol of choice, we very likely wouldn't be having any of these debates. There is much blame to go around on this issue.
 
History should not make anyone feel good or bad, it just exists. Grow up and live with it. Embrace it and focus on making the nation better instead or yelling fire in the crowd.

Not flying the Confederate Flag on the front lawn of the Statehouse does not equal "yelling fire in a crowd" or "painting over history" or whatever. It says a lot about the strength of your argument that you've got to resort to vague slippery slope warnings to try and prove that point.

Jesus, it's not like the thing has been there for 150 years anyway, it was just put up in the 60's by, you guessed it, a bunch of old racists that hated the civil rights movement.

As a Southern, white, conservative, native South Carolinian with a dozen ancestors who fought in the war, the Confederate Flag doesn't impact my heritage or interest in history one bit. Take it down and lets all move on to more important things.
 
If good southern people didn't stand idly by while racist groups like the KKK, or any other loudmouth racists adopted the Confederate Flag as their symbol of choice, we very likely wouldn't be having any of these debates. There is much blame to go around on this issue.
This is a good point but almost impossible to do.
 
Not sure I'm offended per se, but I agree in general. It looks redneck as hell to drive by the capitol and see the flag in the forefront of our state house. I'm also white, male, southern, born in SC, own guns, Christian, etc. No need to fly it.

The rest of the country has had a nice laugh at our expense over this issue. It is embarrassing.

Scotch,
This may or may not apply to you because I don't know your stance on the concept.

But, there are many people who constantly remind us in this forum that we South Carolinians don't care what other people think. Why would anyone care about the nation having a laugh at our expense over the issue has been going on for a very long time.

So, what has really happened here? The people of SC finally gave in to those who laughed at them. Or, the people of SC on their own finally did the right thing for themselves. If it's the latter, why did it take so long?

I'm in a small minority. I truly believe in when in Rome, most people for whatever reason cannot enact and behave in such a way. I'm born and raised in New York but I left that at the Clemson door. I was a Southerner in my mind after my first semester.

When Hootie n the Blowfish came out with Drowning talking about why is there a rebel flag hanging from the state house walls? It was clear to me that SC doesn't give a f**k about what anything thinks because people elsewhere don't know what it stands for and for that, I have much respect. Even though a small portion thought it was for honorary soldier purposes, most, including most South Carolinians thought it was a sign of the Confederacy, suppression. But once again, who cares because we are doing it our SC way. It's like many of my NY relatives who I can't believe I'm related to. They are embarrassing, annoying and don't give a f**k.

So I ask this, why do you care after these national laughers? I personally think it's sad that South Carolinians haven't stood up for themselves in SELLING what that flag is about. Many will say we don't have to. I'd agree with some of that but that flag has taken on WAY TOO MANY interpretations. Now, I think it's way too late in 2015 to restart selling the soldier honoring for that specific flag. It's over, SC lost its honoring power once they started to invoke it for different purposes a long time ago right or wrong and not PRing enough when hate groups used it.

What blows my mind. Why hasn't those passionate about those who served generate a new specific flag to breakaway from the nonsense? And maybe, keep that capital memorial with a legit tribute. I have a tremendous fiery respect for the people of South Carolina. A legit we don't give f**k attitude. If that still reigns true, get Betsy Ross to work.

When I see this, I know what it means. SC should do the same if they are truly honoring those soldiers. Or, was it always a facade for something else?
pow-mia%20outdoor.jpg
 
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Not flying the Confederate Flag on the front lawn of the Statehouse does not equal "yelling fire in a crowd" or "painting over history" or whatever. It says a lot about the strength of your argument that you've got to resort to vague slippery slope warnings to try and prove that point.

Jesus, it's not like the thing has been there for 150 years anyway, it was just put up in the 60's by, you guessed it, a bunch of old racists that hated the civil rights movement.

As a Southern, white, conservative, native South Carolinian with a dozen ancestors who fought in the war, the Confederate Flag doesn't impact my heritage or interest in history one bit. Take it down and lets all move on to more important things.
bingo... a historically accurate flag that might have been used by south carolina armies in the civil war would have lasted a lot longer... probably still would have come down someday or at least been moved, but would have at least passed a certain amount of snicker test.
 
Scotch,
This may or may not apply to you because I don't know your stance on the concept.

But, there are many people who constantly remind us in this forum that we South Carolinians don't care what other people think. Why would anyone care about the nation having a laugh at our expense over the issue has been going on for a very long time.

So, what has really happened here? The people of SC finally gave in to those who laughed at them. Or, the people of SC on their own finally did the right thing for themselves. If it's the latter, why did it take so long?

I'm in a small minority. I truly believe in when in Rome, most people for whatever reason cannot enact and behave in such a way. I'm born and raised in New York but I left that at the Clemson door. I was a Southerner in my mind after my first semester.

When Hootie n the Blowfish came out with Drowning talking about why is there a rebel flag hanging from the state house walls? It was clear to me that SC doesn't give a f**k about what anything thinks because people elsewhere don't know what it stands for and for that, I have much respect. Even though a small portion thought it was for honorary soldier purposes, most, including most South Carolinians thought it was a sign of the Confederacy, suppression. But once again, who cares because we are doing it our SC way. It's like many of my NY relatives who I can't believe I'm related to. They are embarrassing, annoying and don't give a f**k.

So I ask this, why do you care after these national laughers? I personally think it's sad that South Carolinians haven't stood up for themselves in SELLING what that flag is about. Many will say we don't have to. I'd agree with some of that but that flag has taken on WAY TOO MANY interpretations. Now, I think it's way too late in 2015 to restart selling the soldier honoring for that specific flag. It's over, SC lost its honoring power once they started to invoke it for different purposes a long time ago right or wrong and not PRing enough when hate groups used it.

What blows my mind. Why hasn't those passionate about those who served generate a new specific flag to breakaway from the nonsense? And maybe, keep that capital memorial with a legit tribute. I have a tremendous fiery respect for the people of South Carolina. A legit we don't give f**k attitude. If that still reigns true, get Betsy Ross to work.

When I see this, I know what it means. SC should do the same if they are truly honoring those soldiers. Or, was it always a facade for something else?
pow-mia%20outdoor.jpg
The fact that it was put up during the Civil Rights movement might be a clue.
 
Interesting you think the US more of a democracy now. The US hasn't been a democracy in a long time, look at the electoral college as one proof because in a true democracy the voters would decide who was POTUS and would've decided, right or wrong, whether the flag should've stayed or not..

Silly rabbit... The United States is and always has been a Republic. The reason we have the checks in place that we have is so the majority can't just run roughshod over the minority. As was so famously said, "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner." Folks are fine that as long as they get to be the wolves. The brilliance of our system is that when we follow the rule of law, the stupidity of the mob majority. Of late, the mob seems to want to abandon the rule of law in favor of their own form of governance. Well I can tell you if this comes to pass, we're going to have some serious problems that will end up being solved by the working end of the firearms of the minority. It won't end well. I would urge you to consider your stance and wise up about the benevolence of the majority. There is no such thing and any and all means should be put into place to limit and deter the will of the majority. That's not what our great and wise Constitution provides for. Would that more Americans actually read it and understood that!
 
Yup .......13 years ago, my roommate was black. We were (and still are) very good friends, and during one of the summers we lived together he invited me to his family reunion. I of course went, not really thinking anything of it. His family reunion was huge!!!!! Probably 100-125 individuals and I was 1 of 3 white people that went. No one said anything too me directly, and everyone was all smiles to my face, but I could sense that 60% of the folks there probably couldve done without me there.

On the way home we talked about it, and my buddy apologized for the "older folks" in his family. I of course said "Oh I didnt mind" but then there was a silence and I couldnt help myself from asking ".....is that how you feel everyday?" My buddies response? "All the time."

You should write a book.. Me and my black friend. Just kidding.. I don't even want to go my own family reunion what in goods name would make you want to go where you aren't related to someone. I agree the older thing Bill Burr makes this point as well.. They are old what did you think they thought?
NSFW
enjoy
 
The house voted to remove the flag this morning around 1 am, all that is left is for Haley to sign it.
I wish they would furl the damm thing and be done with it. I am sick of the issue. I see pelosi is trying to get Mississippi's flag removed from the Capital in Washington. damm smelly cxxt.
 
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