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The most important thread you will ever read in TI

boosetiger

The Mariana Trench
Gold Member
May 9, 2007
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We have all known that the drastic reduction in interest rates engineered by the Fed was going to have unintended consequences. The first one has now appeared, and it is a whopper. The Fed has lost control of monetary policy. Here are the facts:

Real interest rates are negative in the US. Nominal interest rates in Europe are negative. That has never happened before. The result no one saw coming is that, in a negative interest rate environment, businesses who have customers who owe them money do not want to get paid (as long as the receivable is good). The account receivable created by a business transaction is now worth more than the money with which it will be paid. (the effect of this on the money multiplier is unknown but surely profound. That is a subject to complex for this email but worth having explained to you, suffice to say since AR is bought and sold all the time this an increase in the money supply not sanctioned by the Fed).


The implications of this are mindboggling. Setting aside what it means in vast bond market, consider the practical implications on a business’ balance sheet. In the asset account of Business A is an “account receivable” from Business B who purchased a widget from Business A for $100. If Business B pays that account receivable Business A must invest it. Given a negative interest rate he must now “invest” that $100 and receive less (-1% it would equal $99 on an annual basis) whereas if the account receivable were held for 1 year Business B would have to pay $100. Since Business A’s balance sheet is loaded with cash due to Fed policy it can’t reinvest in operations, the demand is just not there for its product. If he produces more the price will go down. That is a historically unprecedented deflationary pressure. Business B’s account receivable, even though subject to business risk including bankruptcy, is worth more than money backed by the US Government who can actually “print” the money if need be. That receivable is a misvalued asset if there ever was one.

Additionally, Business B does not want to be extended credit because the use of leverage is no longer as lucrative to him. In the past, businesses would, rightly, start to discount late accounts receivables due to it being less likely to be paid. Now, with the added element of that account receivable being more valuable (in terms of cash) the account receivable is not properly valued. There are no accounting procedures to contemplate this phenomenon. When there is ambiguity regarding the assets of a business its proper stock price is impossible to determine. While currently there is only a small influence of this phenomenon on the market, Jamie Dimon and others have warned they are seeing liquidity (amount of buyers) dry up in the bond market. If this will accelerate no one knows (personally I think it will, but I'm sticking to facts).

The conclusion is that under no circumstances can the Fed lower rates any more. The Fed knows this and that is why they are hell bent on raising rates (though they will not tell anyone, I’ll let you draw your own conclusions as to why). The clock, or the detonator, as it were, is ticking.

The only problem is that the Fed cannot raise rates because of the negative interest rates in Europe (even Warren Buffet said this last week several times). If the US were paying significantly more than the Europeans the demand/value of dollars would go up as foreigners purchased our debt. A stronger dollar would make imports so cheap US manufacturers would not be able to compete. This would create massive layoffs and a precipitous drop in domestic stock prices.

This is an over simplification, but undeniable explanation of why the Fed has lost all control over monetary policy. When coupled with the government’s acknowledged loss of control of fiscal policy, the status quo is obviously not an option. One can only conclude that the days of “kicking the can down the road” are over. As soon as the market figures this out it is “Katy bar the door”.

The day we have been warned about for years is here. The effect will be on every household in America as deflation greater than the 1930s, or inflation akin to 1920s Germany, develops, I’d guess, sometime during the next 6 months, probably sooner rather than later. In the days of electronic banking it will happen at lightning speed. America’s wealth will not be redistributed. It will evaporate, and soon.

I don’t know whether to warn of deflation or inflation. We are surely sitting on an inflationary bomb with the recent monetary and fiscal policy decisions. The only reason the inflation bomb has not exploded is because one component of inflation, velocity, has been absent. If there is an uptick in the economy the verdict will be inflation. If there is a decrease in economic activity (today a negative GDP number was confirmed) the verdict will be deflation. It might even be deflation if the Fed raises rates in response to an increase in economic activity as they promise. They are no more “data dependent” than a man in the moon as their reaction is an unknown.

If I'm wrong I will never post on TI again, promise.
 
I don't know about the AR Department where you work, but I can assure you that our AR Department is collecting money and we are still waiting for the first call from another AR Department that we owe money to tell us not to pay a bill.
 
I can't believe people actually paid the OP for his services at one point...

I especially loved this line..."I don’t know whether to warn of deflation or inflation."
 
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I don't know about the AR Department where you work, but I can assure you that our AR Department is collecting money and we are still waiting for the first call from another AR Department that we owe money to tell us not to pay a bill.

Believe me I understand, but have you ever in your career, incurred a loss by doing this? I never said you would get a call saying not to pay, just don't be in a hurry to pay us. You have to admit if it did happen it would blow your mind. Warren Buffet said on CNBC yesterday the following:

WE HAVE ABOUT $5 BILLION OR SO IN EUROS IN AN INSURANCE COMPANY THAT HAS TO BE INVESTED IN FIXED INCOME OBLIGATIONS SO IF WE PUT IT OUT TODAY WE PUT IT OUT SHORT TERM IN HIGH-GRADE OBLIGATIONS WE PAY THE PEOPLE THAT BORROW FROM US WE ACTUALLY PAY THEM 12-15 MILLION EUROS A YEAR JUST FOR THE PRIVELEDGE OF LENDING IT TO THEM SO THAT'S KIND OF CRAZY. AND IN EFFECT WE DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO PAY THEIR BILLS BECAUSE IF SOMEBODY OWES US SOME MONEY IF THEY PAY TO US WE PUT IT OUT ON A MINUS RATE. IT IS MUCH BETTER IF THEY DON'T PAY US.

But if you get a call saying you will be given credit if you promise not to pay early I would love to know about. Another interesting development would be the discontinuance of 2/10 net 30.
 
I don't think it is likley to have inflation with out interest rates rising. What I'm saying is that your (OPs) premise is not likely since none of the factors named are constant. If we fall into heavy inflation, the banks have to recoup and they raise rates. Although there is not the same pressure, the Fed is in the same position. However, in any inflationary market, you are not going to be able to borrow $, without accounting for that inflation.

In a deflationary market, ARs are not worth more than cash. In a deflationary market, the value of cash runs inconsistently with the value of property or services (ie things get cheaper). Imagine the Great Depression where a laborer that used to work for $3/hr had his wage reduced to $3/day. the cost of wage is much cheaper, which effectively means that the cash held is more valuable. So, deflationary markets stimulate the hording of hard assets or cash, not ARs. In effect, holders of assets "invest" by hording those assets for what they hopes are better days in the future. This was the basis for the Depression and ultimately it (along with WWII) made millions for lots of wise people, but did not do anything to stimulate the economy. .... but it's like with anything in an economic model. If the demand goes down for a usable product and supply increases or stays constant, then the price usually follows down, which in turn causes demand to increase and supply to decrease and prices go up. The Great Depression was caused by fear more than anything else and it took WWII to kick start the economy again.

Artificially keeping interest rates low is a way to stimulate the economy and also hedge against inflation. Keeping the hording down and making it economically viable for "spenders" to make $ by stimulating the economy which in turn is supposed to produce more jobs which stimulates more spending etc. The problem with that in a world market is that it may not reflect reality. Imagine a 1944 Hitler demanding that interest rates stay low by creating a German Fed Reserve and keeping inflation in check by offering 1% fed loans to lenders. German banks take advantage of that and borrow lots of $ that they lend, but where does Germany get the $ to lend to the banks. It prints it of course. When they run out, they just print more. In effect, the value of the entire Country deflates because $ is not worth what it was. This causes crazy crazy inflation even with the Fed having low rates. Banks get scared and won't borrow $ regardless of the rates and

Do I know the answer. Certainly not. The guys at the Fed are the most intelligent guys in the world. However, when I read posts like this, my initial reaction is meh.... unless I see low interest rates combined with staggering inflation, I'm not overly concerned.
 
"In a deflationary market, ARs are not worth more than cash." Good point, but they wouldn't be worth less. Like I say we not contemplate this stuff before.
"However, when I read posts like this, my initial reaction is meh.... unless I see low interest rates combined with staggering inflation, I'm not overly concerned." Will it not be too late then? Once you have "staggering inflation" your wealth is gone, or well on its way, right?
What is your take on Buffet's observation?
 
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Not even a top 10 most important thread on TI. OP misses the mark again.
 
I am more worried for when the interest rates are raised. Thats when the real trouble is going to start. The market correction will be mind numbing.
 
I'm more worried about Watson's knee, our DL depth, getting a pass rush from our DEs, Watson's knee, Venables getting a HC job, our LB fits, Nov. 28, Dabo's ugly hat, and Watson's Knee.
 
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Sounds cool. I gotta run. I am going to buy a second car and boat on credit and generate me some of these AR's that nobody cares about.
 
I don't know if it is important or not. I fell asleep within the first two paragraphs. I just woke up. Nice nap too.
 
"In a deflationary market, ARs are not worth more than cash." In a negative interest rate environment it is possible they could be even in a deflationary market. If you borrow $100 and only have to repay $90 and the deflation rate is, say, 5% over the same period, they would be worth more. Like I say we not contemplate this stuff before.
"However, when I read posts like this, my initial reaction is meh.... unless I see low interest rates combined with staggering inflation, I'm not overly concerned." Will it not be too late then? Once you have "staggering inflation" your wealth is gone, or well on its way, right?
What is your take on Buffet's observation?
I don't think so. It will be painful, but if it's a market correction, we deserve it and it should be painful. More millionaires were made in the 80s following the staggering inflation of the 70s. Uncontrollable inflation is different. If the fed tries to stem inflation but it can't then we have a problem.
 
We have all known that the drastic reduction in interest rates engineered by the Fed was going to have unintended consequences. The first one has now appeared, and it is a whopper. The Fed has lost control of monetary policy. Here are the facts:

Real interest rates are negative in the US. Nominal interest rates in Europe are negative. That has never happened before. The result no one saw coming is that, in a negative interest rate environment, businesses who have customers who owe them money do not want to get paid (as long as the receivable is good). The account receivable created by a business transaction is now worth more than the money with which it will be paid. (the effect of this on the money multiplier is unknown but surely profound. That is a subject to complex for this email but worth having explained to you, suffice to say since AR is bought and sold all the time this an increase in the money supply not sanctioned by the Fed).


The implications of this are mindboggling. Setting aside what it means in vast bond market, consider the practical implications on a business’ balance sheet. In the asset account of Business A is an “account receivable” from Business B who purchased a widget from Business A for $100. If Business B pays that account receivable Business A must invest it. Given a negative interest rate he must now “invest” that $100 and receive less (-1% it would equal $99 on an annual basis) whereas if the account receivable were held for 1 year Business B would have to pay $100. Since Business A’s balance sheet is loaded with cash due to Fed policy it can’t reinvest in operations, the demand is just not there for its product. If he produces more the price will go down. That is a historically unprecedented deflationary pressure. Business B’s account receivable, even though subject to business risk including bankruptcy, is worth more than money backed by the US Government who can actually “print” the money if need be. That receivable is a misvalued asset if there ever was one.

Additionally, Business B does not want to be extended credit because the use of leverage is no longer as lucrative to him. In the past, businesses would, rightly, start to discount late accounts receivables due to it being less likely to be paid. Now, with the added element of that account receivable being more valuable (in terms of cash) the account receivable is not properly valued. There are no accounting procedures to contemplate this phenomenon. When there is ambiguity regarding the assets of a business its proper stock price is impossible to determine. While currently there is only a small influence of this phenomenon on the market, Jamie Dimon and others have warned they are seeing liquidity (amount of buyers) dry up in the bond market. If this will accelerate no one knows (personally I think it will, but I'm sticking to facts).

The conclusion is that under no circumstances can the Fed lower rates any more. The Fed knows this and that is why they are hell bent on raising rates (though they will not tell anyone, I’ll let you draw your own conclusions as to why). The clock, or the detonator, as it were, is ticking.

The only problem is that the Fed cannot raise rates because of the negative interest rates in Europe (even Warren Buffet said this last week several times). If the US were paying significantly more than the Europeans the demand/value of dollars would go up as foreigners purchased our debt. A stronger dollar would make imports so cheap US manufacturers would not be able to compete. This would create massive layoffs and a precipitous drop in domestic stock prices.

This is an over simplification, but undeniable explanation of why the Fed has lost all control over monetary policy. When coupled with the government’s acknowledged loss of control of fiscal policy, the status quo is obviously not an option. One can only conclude that the days of “kicking the can down the road” are over. As soon as the market figures this out it is “Katy bar the door”.

The day we have been warned about for years is here. The effect will be on every household in America as deflation greater than the 1930s, or inflation akin to 1920s Germany, develops, I’d guess, sometime during the next 6 months, probably sooner rather than later. In the days of electronic banking it will happen at lightning speed. America’s wealth will not be redistributed. It will evaporate, and soon.

I don’t know whether to warn of deflation or inflation. We are surely sitting on an inflationary bomb with the recent monetary and fiscal policy decisions. The only reason the inflation bomb has not exploded is because one component of inflation, velocity, has been absent. If there is an uptick in the economy the verdict will be inflation. If there is a decrease in economic activity (today a negative GDP number was confirmed) the verdict will be deflation. It might even be deflation if the Fed raises rates in response to an increase in economic activity as they promise. They are no more “data dependent” than a man in the moon as their reaction is an unknown.

If I'm wrong I will never post on TI again, promise.

LIke I've said before...anyone who thinks there is no inflation is not doing any shopping. Or, they are not over 25 and think that the way things are currently is the way they have always been. Or, they are so poorly educated that they don't know up from down, in from out, right from left, of color or white.
 
Believe me I understand, but have you ever in your career, incurred a loss by doing this? I never said you would get a call saying not to pay, just don't be in a hurry to pay us. You have to admit if it did happen it would blow your mind. Warren Buffet said on CNBC yesterday the following:

WE HAVE ABOUT $5 BILLION OR SO IN EUROS IN AN INSURANCE COMPANY THAT HAS TO BE INVESTED IN FIXED INCOME OBLIGATIONS SO IF WE PUT IT OUT TODAY WE PUT IT OUT SHORT TERM IN HIGH-GRADE OBLIGATIONS WE PAY THE PEOPLE THAT BORROW FROM US WE ACTUALLY PAY THEM 12-15 MILLION EUROS A YEAR JUST FOR THE PRIVELEDGE OF LENDING IT TO THEM SO THAT'S KIND OF CRAZY. AND IN EFFECT WE DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO PAY THEIR BILLS BECAUSE IF SOMEBODY OWES US SOME MONEY IF THEY PAY TO US WE PUT IT OUT ON A MINUS RATE. IT IS MUCH BETTER IF THEY DON'T PAY US.

But if you get a call saying you will be given credit if you promise not to pay early I would love to know about. Another interesting development would be the discontinuance of 2/10 net 30.

Sorry Boose, I forgot to reply to your Buffet statement. There are facts and and there are facts, and some people twist them to make a point. I'm guessing that someone is twisting Buffets words here.

Insurance companies have reserve requirements. In Europe they are not state regulated like in the us, and have investment criteria also. Think of it like this, an Insurance company simply holds someone else's $ until it has to pay claims. The idea is to make $ off the float.

What buffet is saying is that his insurance company has to invest in fixed income funds and the long term rates suck. Instead of investing in long term rates and being stuck if rates rise, he invests in short term fixed rates with high quality guaranteed payments so he can quickly move out if the right market conditions present itself

There are other fixed funds that do have positive returns but they don't meet the euro risk standard for his insurance company investment. Those lenders that do meet the criteria have to do something with the investment $ they receive from buffet's company also. They can't invest in the riskier products since (1) the guarantee is short term and (2) it has to be risk averse. However, those lenders effectively have a monopoly for the short term insurance market in Europe and are saying "don't make us invest in crappy long term securities, when you can invest in short term investments and pull out at any time." If you are going to do that, then we are going to charge you." It's the exact same thing that happens when you are charged a withdrawal fee for moving $ out of a fixed income investment fund too soon. You force the fund to take the long term risk.

In this case Buffet is just prepaying the penalty. The phenomenon is there, but the insurance industry is very unique. Its effectively a regulated monopoly. Also, he's talking short term investments, not long term. Too much comparing apples to oranges to be any kind of reliable indicator IMHO. So, I don't think this is an indication the sky falling, and I'm not packing the minivan and heading up to the mountain place just yet. Again, look at the fed rate. If you see the fed rate at 3% with banks lending at significantly higher rates and double digit inflation then it's time to start worrying, We don't see any of that now.

One thing I do agree on is that a collapse is inevitable; I'm just not sure when. It may be 5 years, 20 years, a 100 years or 1,000 years from now, but it will happen eventually. So, if the fear mongrels keep preaching, they will get it right eventually.
 
Sorry Boose, I forgot to reply to your Buffet statement. There are facts and and there are facts, and some people twist them to make a point. I'm guessing that someone is twisting Buffets words here.

Insurance companies have reserve requirements. In Europe they are not state regulated like in the us, and have investment criteria also. Think of it like this, an Insurance company simply holds someone else's $ until it has to pay claims. The idea is to make $ off the float.

What buffet is saying is that his insurance company has to invest in fixed income funds and the long term rates suck. Instead of investing in long term rates and being stuck if rates rise, he invests in short term fixed rates with high quality guaranteed payments so he can quickly move out if the right market conditions present itself

There are other fixed funds that do have positive returns but they don't meet the euro risk standard for his insurance company investment. Those lenders that do meet the criteria have to do something with the investment $ they receive from buffet's company also. They can't invest in the riskier products since (1) the guarantee is short term and (2) it has to be risk averse. However, those lenders effectively have a monopoly for the short term insurance market in Europe and are saying "don't make us invest in crappy long term securities, when you can invest in short term investments and pull out at any time." If you are going to do that, then we are going to charge you." It's the exact same thing that happens when you are charged a withdrawal fee for moving $ out of a fixed income investment fund too soon. You force the fund to take the long term risk.

In this case Buffet is just prepaying the penalty. The phenomenon is there, but the insurance industry is very unique. Its effectively a regulated monopoly. Also, he's talking short term investments, not long term. Too much comparing apples to oranges to be any kind of reliable indicator IMHO. So, I don't think this is an indication the sky falling, and I'm not packing the minivan and heading up to the mountain place just yet. Again, look at the fed rate. If you see the fed rate at 3% with banks lending at significantly higher rates and double digit inflation then it's time to start worrying, We don't see any of that now.

One thing I do agree on is that a collapse is inevitable; I'm just not sure when. It may be 5 years, 20 years, a 100 years or 1,000 years from now, but it will happen eventually. So, if the fear mongrels keep preaching, they will get it right eventually.

I was in the insurance industry for 21 years. This wrong on several levels Buffet is not just prepaying the penalty. To use his words "this is kinda crazy", understatement of the decade.
 
I was in the insurance industry for 21 years. This wrong on several levels Buffet is not just prepaying the penalty. To use his words "this is kinda crazy", understatement of the decade.
I'm counsel for a number of large insurance companies and represent them both domestically and non domestically. Maybe I simplified it too much, but there are no errors in my response. I usually enjoy your posts, but in this case you need to lay off the Rush rhetoric. If Buffet thought there was a immediate threat on the world economy then he'd invest his non-domestic insurance fund holdings in long- term investments with guaranteed positive returns - which are currently available. As a "giver" or "lender" he's counting on the fact that the rates of quality rated products will increase in the long term, which is contrary to your whole premise. In effect, he's saying that the future looks better for a lender than the present and I'm willing to take a hit on short term investments in order to take advantage of that. Yea it sounds crazy, but it's worth it to him. You have misconstrued this to somehow think that the Fed has lost control and the world market will collapse in short order. This, quite frankly, is BS. And if you can't see that I'm not sure there is anything else I can say.
 
Just got back from a shopping excursion based on this thread:

Bought $5,000 worth of canned foods, $1,000 worth of jerky, $5,000 worth of gallons of water, 5 shovels and 5 pick axes, $500 worth of heirloom tomato, corn (GMO Free), beans and squash seeds, $10,000 in various bullets, 1 set nunchuks, 5,000 pills of generic ibuprofen, 2 Patagonia Black Hole Duffel (waterproof), $500 in matches (both short and long stem), 70 gallons of gas (Ethanol Free), 1 Jet Ski, 5 knives with deer antler handles and hilts, 4 propane burners and 15 gallon propane tanks, 1 audio box set for all Rush Limbaugh Radio shows dating back until 1988, 1 Gator 4x4 with lift kit and 4 spare tires.

Purchased all on credit, so probably will not have to pay since nobody wants to collect on AR, but if they do then I am stocked up for the impending Obamapocalypse
 
I'm counsel for a number of large insurance companies and represent them both domestically and non domestically. Maybe I simplified it too much, but there are no errors in my response. I usually enjoy your posts, but in this case you need to lay off the Rush rhetoric. If Buffet thought there was a immediate threat on the world economy then he'd invest his non-domestic insurance fund holdings in long- term investments with guaranteed positive returns - which are currently available. As a "giver" or "lender" he's counting on the fact that the rates of quality rated products will increase in the long term, which is contrary to your whole premise. In effect, he's saying that the future looks better for a lender than the present and I'm willing to take a hit on short term investments in order to take advantage of that. Yea it sounds crazy, but it's worth it to him. You have misconstrued this to somehow think that the Fed has lost control and the world market will collapse in short order. This, quite frankly, is BS. And if you can't see that I'm not sure there is anything else I can say.
First of all Buffet, in Europe, is in the reinsurance business. He is required to purchase the short term "fixed income" instruments in order to be eligible to sell reinsurance. The further out on the curve you go the more interest rate risk there is. He is being forced to "pay people to hold his money" which, one would assume it is being passed on in his pricing.
I showed this to people smarter than me and they pointed out that the crisis will come, in their opinion, when (if) the Fed raises rates, (I assume you mean a rate increase by "future looks better for lenders") the economy stalls and they have to lower rates again. At that point the cat is out of the bag and the world will see the Fed cannot raise rates without destroying the US economy. I'd say that's losing control.
I never said Buffet thought there was an immediate threat to the world economy, I did. Although he does have 70% of his holding in non US instruments. He has said repeatedly that the bond market is "over priced", no kidding.
At least give me that having an account receivable be more valuable than the currency with which it is paid is historic. You might even be willing to give me this will screws up corporate balance sheets if it becomes widespread. Though these smart people told me my time frame was "too linear" it is nonetheless valid. Because you don't understand it doesn't mean it is not true.
This is my real point- Buffet can't say what he really thinks. If he says things are going to get bad it is a self fulfilling prophecy. The same holds true for other financial players. If you and I are going to figure out what they know we are going to have read between the lines. That's how I figured out the 2008 crisis in time. I knew I was being told the whole truth. I'm getting the same feeling now. Yellen comes out today and says stocks are over priced, Dimon warns about illiquidity in the bond market. These people are very careful about what they say. Read between the lines. It ain't good.
Just for the record I was president of a commercial insurance agency for 9 years.
 
Just got back from a shopping excursion based on this thread:

Bought $5,000 worth of canned foods, $1,000 worth of jerky, $5,000 worth of gallons of water, 5 shovels and 5 pick axes, $500 worth of heirloom tomato, corn (GMO Free), beans and squash seeds, $10,000 in various bullets, 1 set nunchuks, 5,000 pills of generic ibuprofen, 2 Patagonia Black Hole Duffel (waterproof), $500 in matches (both short and long stem), 70 gallons of gas (Ethanol Free), 1 Jet Ski, 5 knives with deer antler handles and hilts, 4 propane burners and 15 gallon propane tanks, 1 audio box set for all Rush Limbaugh Radio shows dating back until 1988, 1 Gator 4x4 with lift kit and 4 spare tires.

Purchased all on credit, so probably will not have to pay since nobody wants to collect on AR, but if they do then I am stocked up for the impending Obamapocalypse
So you're saying you don't believe Buffet said this? No troll, just honest question.
 
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