And there it is.....

[harristeeter]

Watching CNBC this morning and Cramer said “it’s tragic but, the markets are going to start getting over people dying of Covid. It’s going to be just a statistic that we live with.”

Mods can move this to the round table because it’ll probably turn political. Just found it interesting that the thinking is now being delivered. I know a lot of individuals thought it would be next month or after. Nope, today

If others have heard this already sorry, that was a first for me.

 

[tigerjimp]

Watching CNBC this morning and Cramer said “it’s tragic but, the markets are going to start getting over people dying of Covid. It’s going to be just a statistic that we live with.”

Mods can move this to the round table because it’ll probably turn political. Just found it interesting that the thinking is now being delivered. I know a lot of individuals thought it would be next month or after. Nope, today

If others have heard this already sorry, that was a first for me.

Agree 100% and it won’t stop with the markets. The rest of humanity will tire of this too and learn to just deal with it like every other risk to life.

 

[cctiger91]

It’ll probably turn political? Is there a betting line I can place my house on?

 

[lvilletiger]

Watching CNBC this morning and Cramer said “it’s tragic but, the markets are going to start getting over people dying of Covid. It’s going to be just a statistic that we live with.”

Mods can move this to the round table because it’ll probably turn political. Just found it interesting that the thinking is now being delivered. I know a lot of individuals thought it would be next month or after. Nope, today

If others have heard this already sorry, that was a first for me.

I wasn't able to tune in this morning. Did he attribute yesterday's adjustment to COVID trends and no stimulus? I only ask because every analyst I follow thinks so. Seems market is still vulnerable to the pandemic in the here and now.

 

[FallsChurchTiger]

I think the markets are already over COVID Data including case counts, death rates etc.

What the markets are concerned about is the impact of that data driving not just US but lockdown measures (see e.g. Germany & France) that impact travel, retail sales, restaurant business, energy consumption and ultimately available disposable income.

 

[Orange&Purple]

We don’t ever need to do another shutdown in this Country...ever!

 

[matthewstigers]

I know it is sad, but people do have to get on with their lives, provide for their families, in order to survive. I know people who have died from Covid, so I am in no way demeaning them or their families loss. In the Spanish Flu Pandemic of 1918-20, over 1/3 rd of the world population got it, and between 50-75 million died from it, including approximately 675,000 Americans. At that time the US population was only 106 million. It now is just over 3 times that, at 328 million, which would be equivalent to around 2.1 million dead.

 

[Intracoastal]

We don’t ever need to do another shutdown in this Country...ever!

Agreed and on top of that I will add that it should be 100% up to states and municipalities to make that call. NOT the federal government. It's what makes the country "go" so to speak. It's a union of states/counties/cities/towns with different governing bodies and laws. It allows citizens to either vote for their representatives and law makers or move to another region/state/city that is more in line with their core values.

Let the people decide.

The role of the Federal government should be minimal. We have given the Fed too much power and people have become far too dependent on the Fed over the last 20 years. It's not a good path.

 

[DaBadass]

The markets have never been worried about COVID deaths. The markets, on a macro level, are based on government fiscal policy right now. Like it or not that is the situation we find ourselves in.

 

[harristeeter]

I wasn't able to tune in this morning. Did he attribute yesterday's adjustment to COVID trends and no stimulus? I only ask because every analyst I follow thinks so. Seems market is still vulnerable to the pandemic in the here and now.

Yes, Monday through yesterday were due to France and other countries saying they were going to do another lockdown.

Then he came out with what he said this morning. Paraphrasing here “we’ve got to learn to live with it and move on”. It was just interesting to hear someone on that channel say that.

 

[trich24]

So why not just post this on the Round Table to begin with?

 

[nashvegastiger]

Make America Tough Again

Send my kids back to in person school.

41% of all deaths were persons in nursing homes yet nursing homes make up 1% of the population.

The average age of a Covid Death in this country is at or just above the average age of life expectancy of all causes. Both coming in around 77 years.

Focus protection on the elderly and those with compromised health.

Everyone else get back to school and work. The Time for Politics around shutdowns is over.

 

[harristeeter]

The markets have never been worried about COVID deaths. The markets, on a macro level, are based on government fiscal policy right now. Like it or not that is the situation we find ourselves in.

People can go around in a circle but reality is this. The markets come down to one thing and one thing only....Earnings.....

If the fiscal policy helps, then the markets love/hate it. If a country goes on lockdown, it effects a companies earnings. So by default, the markets do care about Covid deaths.

 

[charlestontiger417]

Watching CNBC this morning and Cramer said “it’s tragic but, the markets are going to start getting over people dying of Covid. It’s going to be just a statistic that we live with.”

Mods can move this to the round table because it’ll probably turn political. Just found it interesting that the thinking is now being delivered. I know a lot of individuals thought it would be next month or after. Nope, today

If others have heard this already sorry, that was a first for me.

Great point. I hate to agree with him. I think this is something that we manage too. Be smart about it ya know?!

 

[DaBadass]

People can go around in a circle but reality is this. The markets come down to one thing and one thing only....Earnings.....

If the fiscal policy helps, then the markets love/hate it. If a country goes on lockdown, it effects a companies earnings. So by default, the markets do care about Covid deaths.

Well no not really. Asset prices are based on interest rates (nominal and real) and currency values.

 

[harristeeter]

So why not just post this on the Round Table to begin with?

So far there’s no mud slinging, just peoples views opinions. I don’t go to the round table, and I’m sure there are PLENTY of others that don’t either.

 

[BHSRebels89]

So why not just post this on the Round Table to begin with?

Cause its as dead as last year's bird nest over there.

 

[Willence]

For me and many I know, I don't see it as getting over people dying as much as I see it accepting that this is a reality of our lives for now and probably for the next couple of years at least. All over this Earth there are nations and people struggling with this. They've tried lock-downs, mask mandates (even outside), group controls, isolation, closing economies, etc. and we're still dealing with it on a massive scale.

I will never be accepting of death of our fellow men and women. I just know that the harsh reality is the only way past this is through it. It's patently obvious to any who will look all over and see what's going on. Though it is very hard to find news of what's going on abroad here in the United States because so many in the media want us to think we're the only country struggling with this.

 

[harristeeter]

Well no not really. Asset prices are based on interest rates (nominal and real) and currency values.

I get what your saying, it’s a great conversation that can be had.

 

[jakefest]

I wasn't able to tune in this morning. Did he attribute yesterday's adjustment to COVID trends and no stimulus? I only ask because every analyst I follow thinks so. Seems market is still vulnerable to the pandemic in the here and now.

The market is prone to swings via short and vol strategies that use event driven signals (news, indicators, social media, etc) to kick off a series of price arb and hedging algos that push more volatility into the market. Retail normally follows on sentiment momentum. The indicator is futures normally, so if you wake up at 6Am and you see big swings on futures markets, you can bet equities follow suit in either positive or negative direction.

So pros move the market and retail investors contribute to negative price momentum. Pros then pick off retail on the way down via shorting, buy it back at a higher price when it trends upwards.

The exchanges then pay the market makers for providing liquidity via rebates so if you're a market maker, volatility is your best friend.

 

[TigerDoc]

Agree 100% and it won’t stop with the markets. The rest of humanity will tire of this too and learn to just deal with it like every other risk to life.

If the damn politicians (regardless of party) and MSM would get out of the way we would have already moved past this. All 100% USDA Grade A poop steak.

 

[CU91ENGR]

Make America Tough Again

Send my kids back to in person school.

41% of all deaths were persons in nursing homes yet nursing homes make up 1% of the population.

The average age of a Covid Death in this country is at or just above the average age of life expectancy of all causes. Both coming in around 77 years.

Focus protection on the elderly and those with compromised health.

Everyone else get back to school and work. The Time for Politics around shutdowns is over.

By the way, you talked smack about how Tennessee was doing so much better than everywhere end. Still feel the same?

 

[ArmyTiger27]

My wife said Fauci was on Good Morning America today claiming Americans need to bunker down and won’t be safe until 2022. Lmao

 

[scartiger]

Record smashing 34% third quarter GDP growth. Imagine what it would be if the Blue States were open for business.

 

[scartiger]

By the way, you talked smack about how Tennessee was doing so much better than everywhere end. Still feel the same?

Halloween would have to be your favorite holiday.

 

[tigerrecon]

Agreed and on top of that I will add that it should be 100% up to states and municipalities to make that call. NOT the federal government. It's what makes the country "go" so to speak. It's a union of states/counties/cities/towns with different governing bodies and laws. It allows citizens to either vote for their representatives and law makers or move to another region/state/city that is more in line with their core values.


Let the people decide.


The role of the Federal government should be minimal. We have given the Fed too much power and people have become far too dependent on the Fed over the last 20 years. It's not a good path.

This is were I've been from the start. If you want your family to go out and about, go. If you want to shut down, then do it.

We can't stop things like this. We never will. This year it's corona, nest year it's coors...There will always be something,We can't shut down.

Death is coming one way or another.

Do Not Worry
22 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24 Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to your life[b]? 26 Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?


27 “Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith! 29 And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30 For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31 But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

 

[scartiger]

Let the people decide.

The role of the Federal government should be minimal. We have given the Fed too much power and people have become far too dependent on the Fed over the last 20 years. It's not a good path.

This is were I've been from the start. If you want your family to go out and about, go. If you want to shut down, then do it.

We can't stop things like this. We never will. This year it's corona, nest year it's coors...There will always be something,We can't shut down.

Death is coming one way or another.

Do Not Worry
22 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24 Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to your life[b]? 26 Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?


27 “Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith! 29 And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30 For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31 But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

AMEN!

 

[Orange&Purple]

Agreed and on top of that I will add that it should be 100% up to states and municipalities to make that call. NOT the federal government. It's what makes the country "go" so to speak. It's a union of states/counties/cities/towns with different governing bodies and laws. It allows citizens to either vote for their representatives and law makers or move to another region/state/city that is more in line with their core values.

Let the people decide.

The role of the Federal government should be minimal. We have given the Fed too much power and people have become far too dependent on the Fed over the last 20 years. It's not a good path.

Agreed for the most part...this issue is some states are led by morons lol.
And if they allowed the people to decide we’d be mask free!

 

[Cocks are Number 1]

My wife said Fauci was on Good Morning America today claiming Americans need to bunker down and won’t be safe until 2022. Lmao

Someone please show Fauci the door.

 

[nashvegastiger]

By the way, you talked smack about how Tennessee was doing so much better than everywhere end. Still feel the same?

Yes, Tennessee overall is great. Williamson County where I lived had been 5 days a week since early September. Private Schools where my kids went have been 5 days a week Since August.

I moved back to my hometown of Greenville in August to be closer to to both my wife’s and my aging parents.

Greenville County schools have been on a 1 then 2 day a week hybrid Plan. It’s been awful as has their athletics plan by comparison.

Greenville has been run more similarly to Democrat run city/county of Nashville whose mayor is about to be recalled over his handling of the pandemic and a 34%property tax increase during the height of the pandemic. Davidson County schools which encompass Nashville have been all virtual then hybrid. Like Greenville it’s a mess and hurting low income and single parent families the most. As if the pandemic isn’t enough the shutdown decisions hurt the poor and hurt black and Latino communities the most.

 

[Orange&Purple]

Someone please show Fauci the door.

I’m Fauci’ed out bro! He’s been so up and down, backtracking and flip flopping...pathetic!

 

[fatpiggy]

The market is prone to swings via short and vol strategies that use event driven signals (news, indicators, social media, etc) to kick off a series of price arb and hedging algos that push more volatility into the market. Retail normally follows on sentiment momentum. The indicator is futures normally, so if you wake up at 6Am and you see big swings on futures markets, you can bet equities follow suit in either positive or negative direction.

So pros move the market and retail investors contribute to negative price momentum. Pros then pick off retail on the way down via shorting, buy it back at a higher price when it trends upwards.

The exchanges then pay the market makers for providing liquidity via rebates so if you're a market maker, volatility is your best friend.

I am a market maker and we pay the highest rates of all people that trade at the exchange. In fact, we are last priority when it comes to allocation of trades. Customers get first priority and pay much less commissions ( to the exchange, each brokerage house then charges customers different amounts). I do not receive any rebates. I do enjoy the volatility, but volatility this high is not good for business. We can make (or lose) money in high vol or low vol environments. With volatility this high, the algorithms can not keep up and are turned off by many and thus the wild price swings you see in the market everday. Just some info

 

[Orange&Purple]

By the way, you talked smack about how Tennessee was doing so much better than everywhere end. Still feel the same?

BTW, you’ve been doom and gloom since the start. Still feel the same?

 

[Emergence]

Yes, Monday through yesterday were due to France and other countries saying they were going to do another lockdown.

Then he came out with what he said this morning. Paraphrasing here “we’ve got to learn to live with it and move on”. It was just interesting to hear someone on that channel say that.

I'm in France where we are re-entering the lockdown. By and large, in the small and mid cities people are being more calm and deliberate than folks in the US. It has been a breath of fresh air to see respect and consideration, matched with common sense. And the humility to not impose on every other person in sight.

Big cities like Paris are another story.

I work multiple times / week in Rouen which is in the bullseye of this crackdown. Even there, people aren't melting into puddles over a boogeyman. They are trying to be prudent and not live all up in everybody else's business.

Staying in a small village in the countryside, where families are working it out kinda normally. Still in school. May go back to internet through year-end, may not. We'll see. But it ain't a panic stricken helpless mob.

The question is not IF we have to find a way forward. It is HOW do we best move forward, with consideration and respect.

France still seems to believe in science, to hear people discuss the dueling experts. Glad to hear it.

 

[firegiver]

Revenue at company is down 30 percent. Unless there's a vaccine soon we are going to be laying people off

 

[90Orange]

I'm in France where we are re-entering the lockdown. By and large, in the small and mid cities people are being more calm and deliberate than folks in the US. It has been a breath of fresh air to see respect and consideration, matched with common sense. And the humility to not impose on every other person in sight.

Big cities like Paris are another story.

I work multiple times / week in Rouen which is in the bullseye of this crackdown. Even there, people aren't melting into puddles over a boogeyman. They are trying to be prudent and not live all up in everybody else's business.

Staying in a small village in the countryside, where families are working it out kinda normally. Still in school. May go back to internet through year-end, may not. We'll see. But it ain't a panic stricken helpless mob.

The question is not IF we have to find a way forward. It is HOW do we best move forward, with consideration and respect.

France still seems to believe in science, to hear people discuss the dueling experts. Glad to hear it.

It’s good to hear the good ole’ USofA has such an enlightened representative like yourself over there who is so in touch with all the people in all the ignorant states that make up our blunt union. Hopefully - when we are blessed with your return, please bring back some of this science you speak of. Your respect and consideration is a bar that we Neanderthal Muricans hope to reach as soon as we learn to walk upright. T’s and P’s appreciated.

 

[jakefest]

I am a market maker and we pay the highest rates of all people that trade at the exchange. In fact, we are last priority when it comes to allocation of trades. Customers get first priority and pay much less commissions ( to the exchange, each brokerage house then charges customers different amounts). I do not receive any rebates. I do enjoy the volatility, but volatility this high is not good for business. We can make (or lose) money in high vol or low vol environments. With volatility this high, the algorithms can not keep up and are turned off by many and thus the wild price swings you see in the market everday. Just some info

High frequency market makers average $30k a month in rebates. What asset class are you market making in? How much liquidity are you providing?

 

[fatpiggy]

High frequency market makers average $30k a month in rebates. What asset class are you market making in? How much liquidity are you providing?

I market make Vix options at the CBOE. Each exchange has a different fee schedule. There are some exchanges that have make it / take it fee schedules which you are probably referring to. If you make the market i.e. someone hits your bid or lifts your offer you get a rebate and if you take a market from someone else you pay a fee. Other exchanges have different methods of getting liquidity i.e. charging different participants different rates (customers, market makers, large trades, algorithm trades all get different rates. Its a whole game in and of itself. Like others we don't work for free. You change the commission structure and we alter our markets and algorithms to reflect that.)

SO while some firms may get $30k of rebates a month, that is only telling half the story. If you are paying $200k in fees and getting $30k in rebates you are still net paying a bunch of commissions.

We are a middle sized liquidity provider and trade a couple million contracts a year.

Most market makers i know did OK at the beginning of the year but haven't made much money at all since March or so. Just take a look at the prices of the CBOE and CME stock. They are getting crushed this year. Its somewhat correlated to how market makers are doing because like i said above, market makers are charged the highest fees. If we pay a lot in fees the exchanges make more money and vice versa.

 

[appalachiatiger]

So far there’s no mud slinging, just peoples views opinions. I don’t go to the round table, and I’m sure there are PLENTY of others that don’t either.

it really is a pain in the ass to have to switch back and forth between the two just to make some snowflakes happy

 

[jakefest]

I market make Vix options at the CBOE. Each exchange has a different fee schedule. There are some exchanges that have make it / take it fee schedules which you are probably referring to. If you make the market i.e. someone hits your bid or lifts your offer you get a rebate and if you take a market from someone else you pay a fee. Other exchanges have different methods of getting liquidity i.e. charging different participants different rates (customers, market makers, large trades, algorithm trades all get different rates. Its a whole game in and of itself. Like others we don't work for free. You change the commission structure and we alter our markets and algorithms to reflect that.)

SO while some firms may get $30k of rebates a month, that is only telling half the story. If you are paying $200k in fees and getting $30k in rebates you are still net paying a bunch of commissions.

We are a middle sized liquidity provider and trade a couple million contracts a year.

Most market makers i know did OK at the beginning of the year but haven't made much money at all since March or so. Just take a look at the prices of the CBOE and CME stock. They are getting crushed this year. Its somewhat correlated to how market makers are doing because like i said above, market makers are charged the highest fees. If we pay a lot in fees the exchanges make more money and vice versa.

Yep, derivatives are a different animal than equities though. I run a firm that specializes in global infrastructure, pre-trade risk, direct market access gateways and market data. On the equities side, you're talking about MM's that are doing up to 10-12 million transactions a day on multiple markets and that's not the Citadel's or Jump's of the world either.

Did you hear what happened to Ronan Capital? Two bad Vix trades took down the entire firm........talk about a regret for not having a good central risk tool