Any thoughts on how to convince a sick COVID anti-vaxxer to get seen by a non-antivaxx doctor?

[ctcseb]

One of my direct reports (director level, the guy is smart) has been sick for 14 days (fever, cough, oxygen levels dipping below 90, extremely fatigued, unable to work) and missed work for more than a week. His first COVID test came back negative but his fraternity brother is a COVID mocking doctor who found a way to get him Ivermectin prescribed 10 days ago. He has still been getting worse since. He has two young daughters (5 and 3) and was supposed to move to a new house soon. He won't go to the hospital or see a doctor that's not like minded like his friend. Any thoughts on how to convince him to get seen? I've been telling him to do it for his daughters but no luck.

Thank you in advance.

 

[Aksa6527]

Only thing I can say is use the thought of his kids. I had never had a flu or any type vaccine my entire adult life. But, I have a 7 year old daughter that I want to see grow up. It was not worth the risk of leaving her fatherless. I am not an anti vaxxer. I just never thought I needed any because I never get sick.

 

[ctcseb]

Only thing I can say is use the thought of his kids. I had never had a flu or any type vaccine my entire adult life. But, I have a 7 year old daughter that I want to see grow up. It was not worth the risk of leaving her fatherless. I am not an anti vaxxer. I just never thought I needed any because I never get sick.

Thank you. He just texted me and said he felt like he was dying and I reminded him to do whatever it takes for his little girls. He didn't respond. But I hope he takes care of himself before it's too late.

 

[chassc]

Is there a wife involved that can help?

 

[cjtiger300]

He needs to take his ass to the hospital. That low oxygen is nothing to play with. It could easily be causing permanent damage.

 

[TigerDMD]

This is a bad deal for him and he's honestly at or beyond a critical point. He may be able to get a monocloncal antibody injection at this point, but may be too late for this as well. He's going down a bad pathway right now. I had cousin that did this very same thing, refused treatment, wouldnt let them admit him to the hospital when they wanted to. I hate to be this blunt, but he's dead now - all from his poor decisions. I'm not a pro vaxxer or anti vaxxer, everyone has to decide that themselves - but he needs real medical treatment now. Hopefully you can tug at his heart strings for his young children. Good luck.

 

[acwill07]

People who are that stupid almost don’t deserve to live.

But like others have said, OP….just remind him that he has a responsibility to do whatever it takes to get well for his little girls. If that doesn’t zap him back to reality then I think you’ve done all you can. If he won’t see a legit dr. For his daughters’ sake then what kind of person is he?

 

[nealchick]

You said he tested negative; there are a myriad of other illnesses out there. Are you a doctor? Have you evaluated him personally? If he is currently positive the vax is not gonna help him.

N---

 

[clemsonu0219]

You could start by not using terms that box him into categories that he probably doesn’t want to be boxed into. Just a guess tho.

 

[clemsonu0219]

People who are that stupid almost don’t deserve to live.

But like others have said, OP….just remind him that he has a responsibility to do whatever it takes to get well for his little girls. If that doesn’t zap him back to reality then I think you’ve done all you can. If he won’t see a legit dr. For his daughters’ sake then what kind of person is he?

Public hanging is the most expedient way I’d imagine. We can then hit 100% Vax rates as fast as you can round them up!

After that you can target anyone that even asked a question before taking the Vax!

 

[ctcseb]

You said he tested negative; there are a myriad of other illnesses out there. Are you a doctor? Have you evaluated him personally? If he is currently positive the vax is not gonna help him.

N---

His friend is a doctor and he is the one who told him he had Covid, not me. He is the one who reached out to a another doctor thousands of miles away to get a prescription in another state made available to him. So, it’s antivaxxer doctors telling him he is sick and choosing his treatment. He is getting worse by the day and I am simply trying to get him to see someone with a different perspective before he hits the point of no-return. I am not doing it for him but for his little girls.

 

[tigerGUY]

Thank you. He just texted me and said he felt like he was dying and I reminded him to do whatever it takes for his little girls. He didn't respond. But I hope he takes care of himself before it's too late.

Unfortunately, you can't fix stupid. I feel for his family and I sent prayers, but all the prayers in the world may be too late. If those young girls grow up without their father, it's on him....and not Him.

 

[gcsoccer16]

There are FDA approved treatments out there to take. Monoclonal antibodies. Unfortunately they do not get the attention they should. Within 10 days of diagnosis you can get treatment and be on your way. Vax or no vax.

 

[chassc]

You said he tested negative; there are a myriad of other illnesses out there. Are you a doctor? Have you evaluated him personally? If he is currently positive the vax is not gonna help him.

N---

Vax or no vax, he needs to see a doctor. I think that’s what OP is trying to make happen.

 

[ctcseb]

You could start by not using terms that box him into categories that he probably doesn’t want to be boxed into. Just a guess tho.

I haven’t used those “terms” with him. Although it’s telling you think they are pejorative. To me they are factual. He refused to take the COVID vaccine and thought the whole thing was a hoax. Now he has difficulty breathing and feels like he’s dying. But yeah, the problem is definitely me who could have hurt his feelings if I had used those terms…

 

[gcsoccer16]

I haven’t used those “terms” with him. Although it’s telling you think they are pejorative. To me they are factual. He refused to take the COVID vaccine and thought the whole thing was a hoax. Now he has difficulty breathing and feels like he’s dying. But yeah, the problem is definitely me who could have hurt his feelings if I had used those terms…

People choose to smoke cigarettes and get cancer. People choose to eat fast food and unhealthy eating habits and become obese. People choose to do hard drugs. We can still try and help these people though.

The non vax crowd should know they need to get approved treatments if they get sick or it's on them to take the risk.

 

[nealchick]

His friend is a doctor and he is the one who told him he had Covid, not me. He is the one who reached out to a another doctor thousands of miles away to get a prescription in another state made available to him. So, it’s antivaxxer doctors telling him he is sick and choosing his treatment. He is getting worse by the day and I am simply trying to get him to see someone with a different perspective before he hits the point of no-return. I am not doing it for him but for his little girls.

I understand, you are doing what you think is right for your friend and his kids. I just don't understand why everyone thinks they know more than the doctors, especially if his doctor friend has seen him, knows his history and evaluated him and has likely treated many covid patients. Perhaps you are more knowledgeable than he. Either way, hope he improves soon.

N---

 

[nealchick]

Vax or no vax, he needs to see a doctor. I think that’s what OP is trying to make happen.

Sorry, I misinterpreted. I thought he saw a doctor and this poster had a different opinion than his doctor. I would like to depend on my own doctor with whom I have a history. Hope his friend gets better.

N---

 

[ctcseb]

Is there a wife involved that can help?

She reportedly freaked out when his oxygen levels went below 90 but he told her to trust in the treatment his doctor friend recommended. I'm posting on this forum because while he's my employee and there's HR constraints, I'm getting to the point where I feel like I need to act, have a heart to heart with his wife or yell at him to get to the hospital. I'm a little lost and trying to get a perspective from other people.

 

[gcsoccer16]

She reportedly freaked out when his oxygen levels went below 90 but he told her to trust in the treatment his doctor friend recommended. I'm posting on this forum because while he's my employee and there's HR constraints, I'm getting to the point where I feel like I need to act, have a heart to heart with his wife or yell at him to get to the hospital. I'm a little lost and trying to get a perspective from other people.

All you can do is tell him to ask the doctor for a FDA approved treatment that are out there. Hope is not a strategy. If he refuses to get treatment then there is nothing you can do.

 

[nmerritt11]

His friend that’s a doc needs to get him sign up for the antibody infusion and he needs to get an O2 concentrator ordered if he’s dropping that low

Have a friend that is same way. I sent him a portable O2 concentrator, another friend got meds for weekend and the infusion ordered for today, and he’s doing much better.

He literally tested negative for Covid last week but positive for strep and the flu. Then he went to hospital and tested positive for Covid. Refused treatment and went home. Basically walked out

You can’t make anyone do anything…just support and try and help but if his O2 is dropping and staying under 87/88 that’s not good at all

 

[hopefultiger13]

Hope your friend gets better.

He and his Dr have made these decisions. Now he gets to live with those decisions (or not). That's America working as intended.

 

[metiger01]

One of my direct reports (director level, the guy is smart) has been sick for 14 days (fever, cough, oxygen levels dipping below 90, extremely fatigued, unable to work) and missed work for more than a week. His first COVID test came back negative but his fraternity brother is a COVID mocking doctor who found a way to get him Ivermectin prescribed 10 days ago. He has still been getting worse since. He has two young daughters (5 and 3) and was supposed to move to a new house soon. He won't go to the hospital or see a doctor that's not like minded like his friend. Any thoughts on how to convince him to get seen? I've been telling him to do it for his daughters but no luck.

Thank you in advance.

FLCCC protocol but he should have started this a lot sooner.

 

[hopefultiger13]

His friend that’s a doc needs to get him sign up for the antibody infusion and he needs to get an O2 concentrator ordered if he’s dropping that low

Have a friend that is same way. I sent him a portable O2 concentrator, another friend got meds for weekend and the infusion ordered for today, and he’s doing much better.

He literally tested negative for Covid last week but positive for strep and the flu. Then he went to hospital and tested positive for Covid. Refused treatment and went home. Basically walked out

You can’t make anyone do anything…just support and try and help but if his O2 is dropping and staying under 87/88 that’s not good at all

The antibody infusion is the shit apparently. I've a friend who got the vaccine but had a breakthrough infection. She ended up on oxygen (but not a vent), but couldn't go to the hospital b/c all the beds are full. She had the antibody infusion and got better pretty much immediately. She told me that her Dr told her that the infusion worked well, but put you at higher risk from other variants of COVID.

 

[lvilletiger]

Trying to think of what I would do if I were his boss. I'd pivot off the medical treatment path and try something different.

Since he is a director level, do you have a current succession plan for his role? I'd bring that up and ask him if it needs to be revisited given that you may find yourself in a place where you need to replace him should he not make it back (long-term disability or death).

I would also go the personal legal path. Does he have an updated Will? Is he sure everything is in place to secure as good a future as possible for his wife and girls? Does he have all his death beneficiary designations up to date? That type stuff.

Good luck to you. Tough spot for sure. Hope there is a turn for the better.

 

[cyclotiger]

Wow
Praying for the guy and his family

 

[jkleckle]

If he is COVID-19 positive and steadily declining no matter what treatment he has taken or is taking, he needs to be evaluated either in an ER, urgent care, or outpatient physician's office. Vaxxer or anti-vaxxer you don't want to be the guy who says goodbye to their children via a Zoom call.

 

[gcsoccer16]

The antibody infusion is the shit apparently. I've a friend who got the vaccine but had a breakthrough infection. She ended up on oxygen (but not a vent), but couldn't go to the hospital b/c all the beds are full. She had the antibody infusion and got better pretty much immediately. She told me that her Dr told her that the infusion worked well, but put you at higher risk from other variants of COVID.

The data came out today that it can give you 8 months of effectiveness against future infection. 81% effectiveness i believe.

And yes the antibody treatment definitely works. It's not only administered as an infusion either, you can get it as a subcutaneous injection.

Your example is a real one. Unfortunately there are people out there who gwt the vaccine but still get really sick. There will always be unvaccinated people as well. What is unfortunate is too often those people are either unaware or unwilling to get treatment.

 

[nmerritt11]

The antibody infusion is the shit apparently. I've a friend who got the vaccine but had a breakthrough infection. She ended up on oxygen (but not a vent), but couldn't go to the hospital b/c all the beds are full. She had the antibody infusion and got better pretty much immediately. She told me that her Dr told her that the infusion worked well, but put you at higher risk from other variants of COVID.

Well my 87 and 90 year old grandparents got it and were better in 24 hours and out dancing a week later so??

The people I’ve talked to that have had anti-body infusion have said it’s been great…who knows. Damn info changes every single damn week

 

[CUFam98]

Here's the thing about doctors, they 100% know best practices for treatment of diseases and injuries, but they will also tailor their recommendations to what they know the patient will likely do. Assuming this "friend doctor" isn't some random specialist that really doesn't have a lot of experience with COVID, the patient influenced the treatment path as well. For all we know, the patient told his friend he didn't want certain treatments so this pathway was all that was left. But if I went in with COVID and said I was comfortable with Monoclonal Antibody treatment I bet you with almost complete certainty that same doctor would prescribe it. So chances are, you aren't going to find some "anti-vax doctor" to 100% affirm the treatment path the patient wants.

At least that's how most doctors would handle it if they didn't want to be sued for malpractice.

 

[hopefultiger13]

Well my 87 and 90 year old grandparents got it and were better in 24 hours and out dancing a week later so??

The people I’ve talked to that have had anti-body infusion have said it’s been great…who knows. Damn info changes every single damn week

I agree. My friend was sick as shit and got the infusion and was much much better very shortly. I don't think she regrets it at all. Just passing on what her Dr told her.

 

[clemsonu0219]

I haven’t used those “terms” with him. Although it’s telling you think they are pejorative. To me they are factual. He refused to take the COVID vaccine and thought the whole thing was a hoax. Now he has difficulty breathing and feels like he’s dying. But yeah, the problem is definitely me who could have hurt his feelings if I had used those terms…

You asked how to talk with him. You sound quite objective!

Your communication techniques are off-putting. You think you get to determine even the way your friend should and shouldn’t think. That’s the entire problem.

To begin to “convince him”, you must first check yourself.

 

[CUFam98]

If you want to get really crass, he's a direct report, tell him he's almost out of sick days, and is needed back in the office. He's got 2 weeks to get medical help or you will have to move on without him.

If reason and family weren't enough, maybe telling him he is letting down the employer and is close to being fired might do it.

 

[ctcseb]

You asked how to talk with him. You sound quite objective!

Yes, I objectively want him to live. At this point, I don't care if he thinks I'm a shitty boss and leaves the company, I don't want his girls to live without him. If that means hurting his feelings but he lives, I'll be okay with that.

 

[Mike Butta]

Trying to think of what I would do if I were his boss. I'd pivot off the medical treatment path and try something different.

Since he is a director level, do you have a current succession plan for his role? I'd bring that up and ask him if it needs to be revisited given that you may find yourself in a place where you need to replace him should he not make it back (long-term disability or death).

I would also go the personal legal path. Does he have an updated Will? Is he sure everything is in place to secure as good a future as possible for his wife and girls? Does he have all his death beneficiary designations up to date? That type stuff.

Good luck to you. Tough spot for sure. Hope there is a turn for the better.

This was the direction I was going to suggest going.

 

[Da Swami]

Unfortunately there are some hard headed folks that would rather die for a "made up" cause then do what is right by their family and themselves. He always and still does as I type this to go to the hospital but chooses not. You did all you could do.

 

[kwazii]

One of my direct reports (director level, the guy is smart) has been sick for 14 days (fever, cough, oxygen levels dipping below 90, extremely fatigued, unable to work) and missed work for more than a week. His first COVID test came back negative but his fraternity brother is a COVID mocking doctor who found a way to get him Ivermectin prescribed 10 days ago. He has still been getting worse since. He has two young daughters (5 and 3) and was supposed to move to a new house soon. He won't go to the hospital or see a doctor that's not like minded like his friend. Any thoughts on how to convince him to get seen? I've been telling him to do it for his daughters but no luck.

Thank you in advance.

Doc here with actual COVID experience, albeit pediatric. First and foremost, he should go the the hospital and get retested - but even if it is not COVID, he seems to be in a bad spot. He needs medical care. If he is 14 days out and worsening, this is overall a poor predictor of outcome.

The literature on Ivermectin is quite mixed. Even the Cochran database is uncertain after recent meta-analysis. Particularly if looking at only high impact factor journals (consider this as a more rigorous peer review process), there is most likely a trend towards inefficacy, particularly in moderate to severe disease and in courses over 5 days.

Based on what you've said, he is beyond the window for monoclonal antibody therapies. Most literature actually points towards worsening outcomes if hospitalized or requiring oxygen therapy. There are many reasons why this makes sense from a pathophysiology standpoint, but there are still trials working to further clarify this treatment decision.

That being said, ignore the person saying there are no treatment options. That is total bologna.

Immune modulation has become the mainstay of treatment for hospitalized patients and includes steroids (dexamethasone or methylpredisolone) and may include therapies towards augmenting the cytokine cascade (tocilizumab, baricitinib, tofacitinib) if available at your hospital.

Other things to consider that are just purely total body management. While bacterial coinfection is rare, he should have a CXR to evaluate for a focal consolidation. Concomitant medication use needs to be evaluated, he may be on something that needs to be discontinued. From your description, he needs respiratory support and fluid augmentation (he is likely volume depleted after 10 days, particularly if hypoxic for the majority of that time). He needs management of atelectasis. This is typically what is causing hypoxia for COVID patients and may require chest PT, varied positions, and/or positive pressure to assist with alveolar reinflation.

Also, would love to know what kind of "doctor" his friend is.

 

[Jwilliamsiii]

Hope your friend gets better. It will be interesting in another year when they find the genetic code or commonality that makes some predisposed to being very vulnerable to this virus, as well as what makes some so resistant to it

 

[JSpears5]

I feel so bad for his family. Imagine being so tied to an ideology that he would rather die than look to someone that could help him

does he think he will remembered as a martyr because he will be remembered as an idiot that died because he was either to stubborn or too stupid to do what is best for his family

sad case

 

[Goin Coastal]

You said he tested negative; there are a myriad of other illnesses out there. Are you a doctor? Have you evaluated him personally? If he is currently positive the vax is not gonna help him.

N---

???? He is not telling him to go get vaccinated, he is telling him to go see a different doctor. Sounds like he should go to the emergency room to me. That's what you should do when you are really sick, not sure what you have, and other treatments aren't working.