That would be great.
So we can agree that there should be no reference or allusions to skin color? Can we agree that is not a good way to classify people?
DEI
- Thread starter MTTiger19
- Start date
So we can agree that there should be no reference or allusions to skin color? Can we agree that is not a good way to classify people?
I agree that there should be no discrimination in hiring practices yes. We are going to disagree on some other stuff, and we'll just have to agree to disagree, and don't really feel like arguing about it on the internet lol
It just seems so interesting to me that people can't come right out and say "There should be no discrimination based on skin color." Period. End of story. No ifs ands or buts.
Tells me we have a long way to go.
So my thing is I don't think people should discriminate, agreed. But I am also not going to act as if people do not. I also don't think acknowledging that people are different is discrimination and think you use the term discrimination on occasion when it is really discerning a difference. For a ridiculous example, having a Clemson Club at my work where people who are Clemson alumni wouldn't be discriminating on its own (unless it could be proven managers were only hiring from club members, etc etc). It would just be a discernable difference between people, and those people may get together based on that common interest. Similarly, we have multiple resource groups at my work for multiple things, and being a white straight male, I've never felt discriminated against, still support those groups when they have events, am happy they feel more accepted and supported by my company, etc.
Your argument or analagy about a Clemson club misses the point. It's against federal law to discriminate on the basis of race. Its not against the law to discriminate based on your alumni status.
"It is illegal to discriminate on the basis of race." And that includes any special carve out that a particular group wants. Illegal means illegal.
Correct. I still disagree with how you are using discrimination. Having a resource group is not "unjust or prejudicial treatment". That is my point. But like I said, we'll just agree to disagree.
It’s difficult to quantify the extent to which Asian students are discriminated against when they’re over represented anyway.
Tossing out some hypotheticals, you could have many Asian kids with 4.0s, perfect SATs get rejected while the school admits Asians at a much higher rate than any other ethnic group. (I assume this is actually the case, but I don’t have concrete support for it). The over representation is even more clear when you toss out athletes out Ivy League schools, which is not a small chunk of their student bodies
I think the idea that a school has to accept every 4.0 student before any 3.99 student is ridiculous; the schools should be able to make their own decisions apart from that sort of thing.
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Agreed, I also think it feels like cherry-picking to prove preconceived feelings.
To be blunt, there are a lot of butthurt Asian parents that refuse to accept anything but test scores and high school grades as guides for admission. A lot of people cheering for racial fairness in college admissions are themselves motivated by racial considerations, and they know it. And the same people who don't want anything but test scores and grades to matter will again be the first to complain when their kid with a 3.99 is automatically rejected in favor of a 4.0 kid.
It was proven in a court of law. That requires a lot more than cherry-picking and other excuses.
I agree that Asian people have been discriminated against. I think that's separate from the question: Is the college admissions process unfairly biased against Asians in a collective sense? My answer there is no, it isn't. I'm very willing to defend the position that a white kid with a 3.9 could be admitted before an Asian kid with a 4.0. Do you think that's automatically unfair?
The colleges won't consider race explicitly, but they'll find a proxy that approximates what they've been doing.
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It is illegal to find a proxy. If they do, they will face expensive lawsuits. But they have large endowments so maybe that's what they will choose to spend it on, idk.
I do not think that gpa should be the sole determining factor on college admissions. What i am saying, is that race should not be a consideration. At all.
I appreciate that you are attempting to truly discuss the issue. Can I ask what makes this issue so important to you? Do you have a personal experience with being discriminated against?
It’s as simple as what is right is right and what is wrong is wrong. If you don’t stand up when it’s time, you lose all authenticity.
Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, white men have been discriminated against in the past few years. Many of us joke about it under our breath and to each other, but some people are scared to speak up for whatever reason.
Being self employed allows me to speak my mind. I’m beholden to no one, and so I don’t need to curtail my thoughts. I know you hate me, but I reflect the views of a lot of people who just don’t want to post for whatever reason.
Also, I have 4 kids. I want them to be judged on their character, not skin color. That’s the society I want for them.
To put the question back at you, why are you so intent on hanging onto your racism?
Racism under any banner is still racism.
Not sure what's hard to understand with what she stated.
You can disagree, but I get what she is stating and largely agree with it.
That is the point. We don't want diversity equity and inclusion. We want a color-blind society.
I asked you in another thread. Why do you insist on hanging on to the last remnants of racism?
Because we aren't color blind. We all make judgements based on what we see. That's human, the challenge is that we learn not to let preconceived feelings,fears,experiences unfairly judge everyone we meetor interact with.
The idea of colorblind is great, it's certainly a goal, it's not realistic now.
Real DEI programs exist to help us recognize our prejudice and overcome it for a more colorblind,sexual preference blind, etc society/business
OK- Thanks for attempting to answer that seriously. And that is a respectable answer. I would ask that you consider the following. I think the intentions of DEI are having the opposite effect. It certainly does for me and the people i associate with.
It's a nice offer for someone to help me "recognize our prejudice" but I am going to take a pass. By constantly waving your finger and preaching at me and telling me i have sinned and i owe for past mistakes, mistakes i had absolutely nothing to do with, the answer is a polite but firm "Go Fvck Yourself" (Not you personally, but to the people pushing this shit). It's making the problem exponentially worse.
I would suggest a better way would be for those people to focus on making themselves better instead of pointing out flaws in others.
Im glad that we can agree that a colorblind society is a worthy goal. I think we can get there, but only if we stop seeing race right here, right now. Drug addicts must go cold turkey.
Be we need to be aware of the past wrongs that still impact society today. Just waiting GFY so nice I don't want to hear it doesn't fix it.
I do enjoy the discussion,.and it's certainly not gone perfectly, and each approach has problems. I will say that DEI type trainings have helped me to be a better manager and lead to better teams.
I guess I just haven't interacted with any of the bolded programs you have, and neither have any of my close friends, that they've shared at least.
Granted, I am in Greenville not Chicago
Again, the answer is a polite but firm Go Fvck Yourself to any person pushing DEI. Whatever name you want to call it, if it uses skin color it is illegal and immoral.
It's amazing to me that y'all are here advocating for racism. Quite unbelievable actually.
I use strong language because it is required in this situation. Imagine thinking that you have good policy when the overwhelming response is GFY.
I still think we're defining them differently, as all the programs I have spent time in this thread explaining are absolutely not racism. But don't really feel like re-typing all of them.
If they are Diversity Equity and Inclusion programs they are racist by definition.
That one is not aware of that is also shocking.
Respectfully you apparently have never been in a training class that is teaching Diversity,equity,or inclusion in the workplace. They aren't teaching guilt, they are training organizations to be colorblind and hire based on skills experience, etc.
It's literally the opposite of Racism.
I think you are using a very blanket view of DEI as it related to college quotas, or similar.
That's not at all the same thing, and as you have said, you own your own company and I guess aren't teaching these skills. That means you aren't really qualified to judge DEI training.
DEI is racist poison. You just call it something else. You will call it anything but what it actually is.
We need someone to teach us the proper way to see color? Again, the same answer as before. A bunch of nosy Karens. Go work on your own self image instead of nitpicking everyone else. Literally no one likes those types of people. My peer group rolls our eyes and laugh at anything DEI and how it is just a way to discriminate against white people. That is what people truly think about DEI. It is extremely divisive.
We will perpetually be in the cycle until we go cold turkey on racism. But y'all hang onto it with every last breath you have.
I appreciate how passionate you are, but frankly, you don't know what you are talking about about.
Have you ever been in a corporate class discussing hiring and the benefits of diversity to your workforce?
No company is teaching not to hire Any specific race or type.
Yes. That was a University enrollment situation.
That is not the same as corporate DEI training. I'm not sure what you think is happening, but those trainings and programs don't discuss past racial injustices, they literally teach people how to respect others in the workplace and be professional.
It's not racist. You haven't ever attended one so you don't know what you are talking about about. You just don't.
So DEI is OK at work but not at schools?
DEI is DEI wherever it is implemented and it's sole purpose is to discriminate against white people.
It should die a violent death just like segregation did.
You don't know what you are talking about about.
Using quotas can be bad, training people to treat everyone fairly is good.
"DEI is DEI wherever it is implemented and it's sole purpose is to discriminate against white people" is just wrong.
I ask again, what is your personal experience? Either give an example, or admit that you are gonna be off of hearsay and Twitter.
My parents taught me how to treat everyone fairly. I don't need some Karen teaching me how to treat people. If you don't like the way i treat people, then don't hire / fire me.
It comes off as very obnoxious. Like you are some elite. No thanks. (collective you, not personal)
That's such an odd response.
Every single organization trains their staff. It's been standard for my 30+ years in the workforce to train people how to interview, how to treat employees, how to be professional. Every single company does this.
Do you find it obnoxious when Dabo uses the Paw Journey to teach his players how to be good professionals and how to represent themselves?
You have decided that your feelings, not experiences, not actual firsthand knowledge, is right and DEI in every instance is wrong.
I'll say again, you are just wrong and aren't qualified to discuss this topic. You don't have a clue what you are talking about and you aren't open to learning reality.
It's sad.
