I forget who our resident longshoreman is, but he would probable provide some unique insight.
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East Coast Port Strike - Will Kamala Stop It?- Desantis Calls in National Guard to Continue Florida Port Operations - Longshoremen Fold
- Thread starter fatpiggy
- Start date
That's how they dealt with it before. Though they don't like to talk about that too much
NOPE THE DOPE WON'T
Dems are being bitch slapped by Union
ask the question how many crane operators make $ 600,000.00 a year at this time
I would think NONE
UNION wants that as a wage
Dems are being bitch slapped by Union
ask the question how many crane operators make $ 600,000.00 a year at this time
I would think NONE
UNION wants that as a wage
It’s likely you will see news circulating about a potential port strike. Unfortunately, the media often portrays us as “greedy union thugs,” which is why I want to provide some important context.
The International Longshoremen’s Association (ILA) is the largest union of maritime workers in North America, representing over 85,000 longshoremen across the Atlantic and Gulf Coasts, Great Lakes, major U.S. rivers, Puerto Rico, Eastern Canada, and the Bahamas. The ILA has roots dating back to 1877 with the Association of Lumber Handlers on the Great Lakes. Locally, Charleston ILA Local 1422 was chartered in 1936, during a time when labor unions were critical in improving wages, safety, and job security in industries like shipping.
See the link below for a summary of the situation:
Our members work 24/7, 360 days a year, often in dangerous conditions such as extreme weather or long, grueling shifts. We are hard-working, blue-collar people who contribute directly to the local economy. Tragically, we lose lives every year due to the risks involved. During the pandemic, we never stopped working. While others had the chance to work from home or received stipends, we kept the world trade moving, without missing a beat.
See this important message from ILA President Harold Daggett:
The last ILA strike occurred in 1977, and one of the most pivotal moments in our history was the Charleston Five incident in 2000. A peaceful protest against non-union labor led to the arrest of five of our members, including then-president Ken Riley. After international solidarity and a long legal battle, the charges were eventually dropped, marking a significant win for labor rights.
See link for more information on this matter:
Charleston is one of the busiest ports on the East Coast, and our union workers are crucial to its operations. The union is also committed to community outreach, ensuring we remain connected to those we serve.
The media might cast us as the villains, but the reality is that shipping lines, our employers, used the pandemic as an excuse to raise their rates—sometimes by as much as six times the pre-COVID amount. This was blatant price gouging. We believe, deep down, they’re hoping we strike so they can increase rates even further and shift the blame to us. Feel free verify their record breaking profits over the last five years— you will see they cashed in on hundreds of billions of dollars during a global crisis, while we, the workers, never saw any hazard pay. In fact, we lost many members to COVID-19, including my uncle Andy Hogue. They are largely to blame for the inflated prices of consumer goods.
The union labor costs are minimal, accounting for just 3% of the shipping lines’ expenses. Our union is simply asking for fair compensation that keeps pace with today’s inflated costs.
Please take a moment to watch the videos I’ve shared to better understand the situation. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out, and I’ll do my best to provide answers.
The International Longshoremen’s Association (ILA) is the largest union of maritime workers in North America, representing over 85,000 longshoremen across the Atlantic and Gulf Coasts, Great Lakes, major U.S. rivers, Puerto Rico, Eastern Canada, and the Bahamas. The ILA has roots dating back to 1877 with the Association of Lumber Handlers on the Great Lakes. Locally, Charleston ILA Local 1422 was chartered in 1936, during a time when labor unions were critical in improving wages, safety, and job security in industries like shipping.
See the link below for a summary of the situation:
Our members work 24/7, 360 days a year, often in dangerous conditions such as extreme weather or long, grueling shifts. We are hard-working, blue-collar people who contribute directly to the local economy. Tragically, we lose lives every year due to the risks involved. During the pandemic, we never stopped working. While others had the chance to work from home or received stipends, we kept the world trade moving, without missing a beat.
See this important message from ILA President Harold Daggett:
The last ILA strike occurred in 1977, and one of the most pivotal moments in our history was the Charleston Five incident in 2000. A peaceful protest against non-union labor led to the arrest of five of our members, including then-president Ken Riley. After international solidarity and a long legal battle, the charges were eventually dropped, marking a significant win for labor rights.
See link for more information on this matter:
Charleston is one of the busiest ports on the East Coast, and our union workers are crucial to its operations. The union is also committed to community outreach, ensuring we remain connected to those we serve.
The media might cast us as the villains, but the reality is that shipping lines, our employers, used the pandemic as an excuse to raise their rates—sometimes by as much as six times the pre-COVID amount. This was blatant price gouging. We believe, deep down, they’re hoping we strike so they can increase rates even further and shift the blame to us. Feel free verify their record breaking profits over the last five years— you will see they cashed in on hundreds of billions of dollars during a global crisis, while we, the workers, never saw any hazard pay. In fact, we lost many members to COVID-19, including my uncle Andy Hogue. They are largely to blame for the inflated prices of consumer goods.
The union labor costs are minimal, accounting for just 3% of the shipping lines’ expenses. Our union is simply asking for fair compensation that keeps pace with today’s inflated costs.
Please take a moment to watch the videos I’ve shared to better understand the situation. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out, and I’ll do my best to provide answers.
I have a question, thanks for the discussion.
When your(?) leader says that you all work hard, worked through covid, and are important to the overall economy, I agree with him.
My question is, what makes this group of people think that they can hold the national economy hostage? Should every other group do the same? Are they not as important as you?
Thank you.
Can you post some job categories and the associated annual compensation being demanded by the union?
I guess the Union doesn't care about the drastic need for supplies in WNC and the death and destruction from the Helene. Instead of delaying a strike as requested by Senator Scott, they moved ahead and will use that suffering as a bargaining chip.
Besides crazy high salaries, they are requesting no automation at the ports. Automation is coming. AI is the next industrial revolution. The union would be better off demanding training for automation and a plan to allow members to retire / get compensation packages as their jobs become redundant and are eliminated. Ports have no choice to but to automate if they are going to remain completive.
I don't deny their right to strike and try to get better wages, but the timing has quickly turned public opinion against them.
Meanwhile, more shortage and skyrocketing prices for everyday people, including those that lost everything.
Besides crazy high salaries, they are requesting no automation at the ports. Automation is coming. AI is the next industrial revolution. The union would be better off demanding training for automation and a plan to allow members to retire / get compensation packages as their jobs become redundant and are eliminated. Ports have no choice to but to automate if they are going to remain completive.
I don't deny their right to strike and try to get better wages, but the timing has quickly turned public opinion against them.
Meanwhile, more shortage and skyrocketing prices for everyday people, including those that lost everything.
Every single person should be demanding more money. If this starts a movement, then so be it. We are only demanding what we deserve. Inflation has gone up by 20% and we only received a minimal raise 6 years ago.
It sucks about WNC and our contract ending. Shitty timing. Perhaps the foreign owned corporations should have more compassion and give us what we want.
No offense to you personally, but I do not think your union is doing very well presenting itself as anything but the bad guy in this. No one is trying to argue that dock work is not hard work or that the workers are not essential. Police work and fire fighting are hard jobs too. I am sure a firefighter or law enforcement officer would not find much sympathy for a union that turned down an offer to pay over $120K per year with the opportunity to pick up overtime on top of that.
As someone else asked, why should this union be holding the nation's economy hostage when 4 states within their geographic footprint are in need of emergency relief?
My advice is that yall need to take the 50% raise and get back to work.... before the robot you fear will take your job takes your job.
No. Foreign corporations should have thought about this. They have made hundreds of billions off of us and we are the bad guys?
I’m pulling for you to be fired. I hope all of you are fired.
You sound like a bunch of selfish pricks so far. My mind can be changed with further information, but you all are losing the PR battle right now.
Your job will be automated at your next contract renewal. Plan accordingly
You can “demand” more money by seeking other jobs or negotiating with your current employer like the rest of us do.
You should not, however, hold the nation hostage for your negotiations. Imagine if every industry did that? We would have constant stoppages while We The People get ****ed.
I have not seen anything yet to differentiate your group from everyone else.
You worked hard during covid? Pin a rose on your nose. What an embarrassing claim. You make the world go round? Well guess what, that can be said for a multitude of industries.
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Turning into a Democratic shit show because they have left a vegetable and a retard in charge of governing us.
They will point t the fingers and try claim neither one was in charge.
But the people are wise. And we are goi g to vote the assholes out on November 6th.
Joe Biden and Kamala Harris have the power to stop this vefore it ever affects one of us. Let’s see what they do.
I’d be willing to bet dollars to donuts that Biden uses the 80 day cooling off period before the election.
They will point t the fingers and try claim neither one was in charge.
But the people are wise. And we are goi g to vote the assholes out on November 6th.
Joe Biden and Kamala Harris have the power to stop this vefore it ever affects one of us. Let’s see what they do.
I’d be willing to bet dollars to donuts that Biden uses the 80 day cooling off period before the election.
Not sure I understand your argument. Should the security guard at Google or Microsoft demand to be paid like a doctor because he works for one of the most profitable companies in the world, or should he be expected to make the market rate for a security guard?
When you went to work for this multi billion dollar foreign corporation you agreed to work at a certain wage. What expertise or skills have you acquired that would "demand" a 50-77% raise to do the same job? My wife is bilingual, has a Master's degree, was near the top of her class (high school, undergrad and grad school), has more than 6 years experience, constantly gets calls from recruiters and she makes less than what the offer your union turned down. She is not in danger of having a robot take her job any time soon.
One of my best friend's is a police officer with more than 6 years experience in a smaller town. A robot cannot do his job. He just got what his town council, mayor, chief, etc all said was a "significant" pay increase. He now makes about $22/hour... with a college degree in Criminal Justice.
If the profits of your employer is your (the union) concern maybe you should be asking about a profit sharing plan instead of asking to be paid more than doctor.
Take the deal and get back to work before the robot is sitting in the crane.
They know the cooking off period is going to cost them anyways. We are in charge of production. We are in charge of the containers coming in and out of the port. They want 30 boxes an hour? They get 5. You’re going to pay us hourly and still negotiate for higher wages.
Let me be clear. We have asked the foreign companies for 2 years now to come to the table and they offer us $2.50? While their ceo literally took out a billion dollars as a bonus? How are we the bad guys here? Are we supposed to roll over and take it? This is what a union does for its worker. It fights for what we deserve.
The strike is the result of the greed of the shippers alliance, the United States Maritime Association (USMX), which has been raking in record profits since the pandemic, yet refuses to meet the wage demands by the ILA to address staggering inflation that has eroded workers' paychecks. In a report released by the ILA, they noted that Maersk - the world's largest shipping company and the target of a campaign to end their shipment of weapons to the Israeli government - reported a 56% increase in revenues between 2021 and 2022, bringing in more than $82 billion.
"Refuses to meet the wage demands" - You are going to have to sell the people that you, and specifically your unions demands, are more deserving than any other trade group or group of people. Everyone works hard. Many trades are essential. What makes your group so special that they should be able to hold the economy hostage?
You are not going to get much support from the public when you are sabotaging by putting out 5 containers when you should be putting out 20. Most of us call that unethical and would not support that morally.
Another question for you. If Trump were to win the election, how do you think that affects your negotiating position?
You are not going to get much support from the public when you are sabotaging by putting out 5 containers when you should be putting out 20. Most of us call that unethical and would not support that morally.
Another question for you. If Trump were to win the election, how do you think that affects your negotiating position?
Okay. Let’s do this step by step. You think it was greed that caused containerized spot rates to jump during COVID and shipping companies to see significant jumps in revenue? Just greed? Nothing else could be a factor there?
5 years of record breaking profit? A quick glance at a couple of income statements renders that false. Maersk’s net income was negative in 2016, 2017, and 2019. It spiked in ‘21 and ‘22. In 2023, Maersk saw net income fall almost 90% YoY. MSM’s income statements tell a similar story.
Hazard pay? For doing your job? COVID? A lot of people died during COVID. I don’t think it was exclusive to dockworkers. A lot of people worked too. That wasn’t exclusive to dockworkers either. I don’t really give a shit about how much you have to work as long as labor laws are being abided by. If it sucks, take the marketable skills that justify a 77% pay increase and go find another job. Shouldn't be hard, right?
There are hundreds of thousands of white collar workers who don’t get paid hourly or overtime that put in more than 50 hours a week. Business owners and other upper tier skilled workers put in significantly more in many cases.
I don't think people would have any issues with a reasonable request for increased pay or benefits. Unskilled laborers (largely) holding people and an economy hostage because they think they’re worth 77% more money and the assurance that automation won’t take over many of their easily automated jobs isn’t going to be a winner in the court of public opinion. It’s also probably not a winning strategy long term if your goal is to prevent automation.
Here's the problem for you guys:
1. You're complaining about foreign companies, but you're going to make Americans pay for it. You consistently vote for and support Democrats which have consistently pushed jobs out of the country which would reduce the need for all this shipping into the country. So you're basically building your own kingdom which gives you a crazy about of leverage which I am just not comfortable with.
2. A lot of what you guys do is automated in other countries and you are doing all you can to stop that. When parts of that job can be replaced with a machine, you're screwed. Every time this process has begun it only ends one way.
3. You reportedly pay your union head almost $1m a year. That's ridiculous and he is a belligerent blow hard who reportedly has a lot of very corrupt ties. These things are what have destroyed unions in our country and you guys seem to have fallen into this same trap.
4. Your job is to load and unload what is sent to and goes from ports. You do that for a fee and that's not subject to a percentage of the profits. Again, a lot of your job can be done by machines and as part of your bargaining, you want guarantees that there will be no automation. Who gets that guarantee?
5. You guys started at 77% and are down to, I believe, a 61.5% increase in pay over the next few years. Almost no one gets guaranteed increases in pay. Crane operators are highly skilled individuals and deserve rather robust pay considering what they do. But that kind of increase with the guarantee of no automation is just not realistic.
In the end, if you get your higher pay you want we the people will pay for it. You'll pay for it too and all this risks to bring back inflation and many other very undesirable outcomes. If I'm a shipper, I'm doing whatever I can to automate everything I can so I don't have to deal with this kind of thing again. It's not a good situation for you guys and I am sorry. My industry has automated a lot as well and I also fear for some aspects of my job in the future. It's a hard thing to navigate. This isn't the way however because a lot of us have endured enough hardship and there isn't much patience left to experience more.
Revenue doesn’t mean shit. Especially in a very capital-intensive business with volatile input costs based heavily on commodities markets. Operating income, EPS, net income - hell, even gross profit. Use a number that actually means something. Maersk’s net income was negative in 3 of the last 8 years. It was negative $1.94 billion in 2016. Negative $1.2 billion in 2017. Negative $84MM in 2019. It’s shipping. It’s incredibly volatile. Their net income decreased 80% from 2014-2015. It decreased more than 100% between 2018 and 2019. Decreased 87% from 2022 to 2023.
I also fail to see how a company’s earnings mean a specific group of employees should be paid more. Just because NVDA or MSFT or AMZN have massive revenue years doesn’t mean their maintenance guys, or security guards, or admins deserve more money. Pay is typically commensurate with the job and the skills needed to perform it and - ultimately - performance. That’s why CEOs get paid a lot in record revenue years btw.
So you are stopping needed supplies to our neighbors, friends and family, some of whom have literally lost everything?? Stop whining about foreign companies. The union could have put this off a few weeks but decided to use this horrible disaster for leverage.
Time for the robots
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But a job is only worth so much. If a local Wendy's makes a million dollars, should they pay the kid making burgers $150k? Of course not. Its not a job worth that much, now matter what the bottom line is. If they demand it, the robots will make the burgers. They already do in some places. They will be on the cranes and checking off boxes soon enough.
So if revenues increase by 56% explain where the 77% demand in pay increase for you guys come from? This is why you look greedy. There is no basis for what you are asking for that I can see. I own 2 businesses. My revenues increased by 30% over the last 2 years, but my expenses also increased. Does that mean that I should give my employees increases based on that revenue increase? You can't stay in business that way. I understand the position but to "cripple" the economy based on flawed logic is why you guys are taking the PR hit.
Whatever contract they end up with after the strike is good for 6 years. That is plenty of time for the ports to plan a transition to automation. AI models can be developed and trained (hopefully with Nvidia chips
), and the preparation for implementation can be undertaken. The union may actually be solidifying their demise.
People: we should be paid a living wage
Conservatives : free market bro! Not making enough money? Don’t work that job!
People: ok we won’t work this job until they agree to give us better pay and benefits
Conservatives: selfish pricks!
Conservatives : free market bro! Not making enough money? Don’t work that job!
People: ok we won’t work this job until they agree to give us better pay and benefits
Conservatives: selfish pricks!
They have a right to strike. As I posted above, I think they are hastening their demise. There is a reason most unions are gone. I think the problem most people have is the union using a horrific disaster to try to gain leverage. Its disgusting.
No. They’ve made hundreds of billions of dollars because they risked billions of capital to build a business that addresses a market need. You are merely a small cog in a much bigger machine who has collected a paycheck to do a job. Paychecks that in many cases they could stop cutting by automating some of the jobs. Again, it isn’t forced labor. Take your marketable skills and go elsewhere. Or get some investors together and pool your capital. Go out and build a competitor.
I couldn’t stand Unions in my old job. I always tell the story about having to pay a Union electrician at the La Guardia airport for to sit and eat meatball sandwichs while my IT crew plugged in checkin desk and gateway PCs. If we didn’t pay them, they would’ve broken our shit.
Also, when bidding work in Europe I had to account for the current salaries of the current maintenance teams in my bid because, I was not allowed to replace them under TUPE regs without buying out their government contracts.
I hated it, it was such a pain in the ass! ..,,,
Then on September 12. 2023 I was laid off. I was with my company for 24 years and I was gone in 6 minutes. I was laid off because it was determined by executives who didn’t know what I did that my “role” could’ve been absorbed into other roles. For 2023 my old company posted record profits and record executive bonuses …..
I still have a lot of friends at my old company, and they are still struggling to fill the gap that was left. The direct financial impact of losing me has resulted in $800k in revenue ….. now will my old company fold? Go out of business because they lost me? lol No …. buuuuuuut hey still makes me feel good!
I say all that to say this … @lctiger831 …. You do you boo! Billionaires making billions and they want the public to get mad at a dock worker.
One need look no further than the story of the steel industry in the US to see how badly unions have mismanaged the modernization of many aspects of the labor market. They tried to hold out for everything in the face is tremendous competition and lost out completely. It created a lot of really bad outcomes that weren't necessary.
That, and the fact US steel plants are incredibly outdated and executives don't want to put the capex in place to repair/replace them which helped drive the steel industry overseas. It's one of the reasons why the steel capital of the US is transitioning from the Pittsburgh area down to the NE Arkansas/Memphis area. Much better geographical area to build solar farms to provide alternative power to coal/nat gas, and cheap labor.
There's much more to the demise of the domestic steel industry than unionization of the workforce.
I would add the car industry to your argument.
We are witnessing it unfold in front of our eye's.
The original auto manufacturers can't compete with Tesla. The future is electric cars, anyone who has driven one knows this. Yet, the original auto's can't make an EV at a profit. And it's not for lack of effort. They have made several versions of EV's but none at a profit. Tesla is the only one tha can make an EV at a profit, why? I think because the legacy auto's labor costs are so high.
Well we disagree about electric being the future. I don't think so for myriad reasons. Even the pioneer of the electric car says they shouldn't be more than a quarter of the car market. We need better technology before we can move on.
Those things weren't in place when the steel industry died in the US back in the 90's and early 2000's. The Japanese made steel in a much more cost effective way and it put more pressure on companies here and labor and pension costs were astronomical. Any business that had unions and a pension system in place have suffered a similar fate. That whole model just couldn't survive the age of technology.
