He responded....

[johnhugh]

Yes. He once said he went to the library and read a bunch of letters written by slaves. And based on that research he concluded that the slaves saw their owners more as strict father figures, and that the conditions weren't that bad.

While their were incredibly rare occasions where some slave owners had small farms and only had a couple slaves who they may have treated relatively well, that’s crazy.

 

[Buzzards Roost]

Lol @ Trump and his bone spurs beating somebody up...

They were both relatively successful high school athletes. I would pay to see the fight. But the 5 year age difference might bevan issue. Have to handicap it.

 

[FreeSC]

@FreeSC ... This is why nobody believes your friend. The notion that an secret service officer, ON DUTY, was willing to have some sort of conversation with your friend is far fetched enough, but a willingness to editorialize, on his protectee, to a random on the street, definitely did not happen.

I can understand that.
Yet, I can tell you, this guy is NOT highly politically involved, although he obviously has his opinions on matters.
And although I had never heard anything about Biden's thing for young girls, a quick search of Youtube videos shows there is VIDEO EVIDENCE on Biden that is just creepy, my friend.

You don't want to believe it, because it paints a prominent Dem in a very nasty light. And you might be right.
But there is video evidence is just is NOT right.

 

[FLaw47]

I can understand that.
Yet, I can tell you, this guy is NOT highly politically involved, although he obviously has his opinions on matters.
And although I had never heard anything about Biden's thing for young girls, a quick search of Youtube videos shows there is VIDEO EVIDENCE on Biden that is just creepy, my friend.

You don't want to believe it, because it paints a prominent Dem in a very nasty light. And you might be right.
But there is video evidence is just is NOT right.

I think there's kind of a "creepy uncle Joe" joke among liberals so I'm not sure you're revealing anything new here. I don't think he's actually done anything wildly inappropriate but he does seem to have some issues recognizing personal space.

 

[Rychek4]

I think there's kind of a "creepy uncle Joe" joke among liberals so I'm not sure you're revealing anything new here. I don't think he's actually done anything wildly inappropriate but he does seem to have some issues recognizing personal space.

Wife is a liberal and agrees with this 100%

 

[FreeSC]

While their were incredibly rare occasions where some slave owners had small farms and only had a couple slaves who they may have treated relatively well, that’s crazy.

No that is NOT what I said.
I said that the US Government, early during the 20th century, created a department called the Works department to create jobs. It was called the Federal Writers Project, and involved about 2300 interviews.
One of the jobs created was to send people throughout the South, with manual typewriters, to interview former slaves, to get first-hand impressions from them of that institution.
These hand-typed interviews are commonly called the Slave Narratives, and are available on-line.
If you go the the right site, you can sort the interviews by state, which I did.
The State of SC had, I don't remember, 2-300 interviews.
I did a random, 30 pc sampling of the interviews - which statisticians would call a "significant sample" with a very high degree or relevance to the overall population.
In the 30 piece sample, impressions by the former slaves quickly divided themselves into 3 different groups.
The first, and largest by far, were those who simply described life on the farm: pig pickings and cutting wood and planting and harvesting and all the normal things that happened in relatively isolated farm life. They were farmers, and it's pretty hard work. But MOST of these interviews indicated nothing about what they thought of their former masters, or of physical abuse, or anything like that. It was just life on the farm.
The second group - 3 of the 30 sampled (10%) described masters who were abusive and cruel.
This is, interestingly, about the same percentage of women who describe their former husbands as abusive. The truth is, there are some pretty terrible people out there.
The shocking part of my study was the 3rd group.
9 of the 30 (30%) - said exactly the OPPOSITE. Three times the number of those who described abuse.
They said that they LOVED their former masters. They considered them family. In today's PC environment, some of the comments were SHOCKING and UNBELIEVABLE - but, these are FIRST HAND, eye witness accounts by those involved, which simply means that they are the BEST, MOST RELIABLE record of the institution.

I have also said that, whether slaves were treated well or not, I find the idea of chattel slavery disgusting, and am as glad as anyone that it no longer exists.
My problem with most people is that they irrevocably link abuse to Southern slavery. It is VERY CLEAR from the Slave Narratives that that was NOT the case whatsoever. In fact, in a very large number of those cases, there was CLEAR LOVE - in spite of the fact that I believe virtually no one, north or South, considered blacks and whites equal. I did say that it seemed somewhat similar to the very strict upbringing I had 50 years ago. I was NOT IN ANY WAY the equal of my parents. I was not allowed to talk at the table. I was beaten if I misbehaved. Yet, they loved me. In today's society, which has changed much and corporal punishment of children is becoming rare, it is increasingly hard to comprehend, but it is no less true.

There is another part of this that NO ONE ever talks about.
The MILLIONS of white Europeans that sold themselves into slavery to get here.
They literally sold their freedom, giving away every single freedom, right, and privilege, to get here, working side-by-side with African slaves. No difference, except the amount of time given to slavery was limited to agreed upon years. Indentured servants were slaves in every sense of the word - and they VOLUNTEERED for it. In fact, as Abraham Lincoln wrote the Emancipation Proclamation - which freed NO ONE, mind you - he could literally look out the windows of the White House and see a mixture of hundreds of slaves and indentured servants working side by side building the Capitol building - and he did nothing to free them.
Now, if physical abuse had TRULY gone hand-in-hand with slavery, would millions of white Europeans have sold themselves voluntarily into slavery? No.

Someone will try to bend this narrative and say that I am excusing or minimizing the institution of Southern slavery . I am NOT. As I have clearly stated, I find the idea of chattel slavery disgusting, NOT because of physical abuse, which was clearly in a small minority, but because it is in opposition to the dignity and free rights of all men.

And my problem with the hard left, which continue to embrace communistic and socialist ideals, is that they was to move us to slavery themselves, every bit as clearly.

 

[FreeSC]

I think there's kind of a "creepy uncle Joe" joke among liberals so I'm not sure you're revealing anything new here. I don't think he's actually done anything wildly inappropriate but he does seem to have some issues recognizing personal space.

You may be right. Who knows.
Or maybe he really had done some disgusting things.
I'll tell you, from those I know who work in Columbia (and my guess is that DC is even worse), the number of representatives who are into creepy stuff is very high.

 

[Rychek4]

No that is NOT what I said.
I said that the US Government, early during the 20th century, created a department called the Works department to create jobs. It was called the Federal Writers Project, and involved about 2300 interviews.
One of the jobs created was to send people throughout the South, with manual typewriters, to interview former slaves, to get first-hand impressions from them of that institution.
These hand-typed interviews are commonly called the Slave Narratives, and are available on-line.
If you go the the right site, you can sort the interviews by state, which I did.
The State of SC had, I don't remember, 2-300 interviews.
I did a random, 30 pc sampling of the interviews - which statisticians would call a "significant sample" with a very high degree or relevance to the overall population.
In the 30 piece sample, impressions by the former slaves quickly divided themselves into 3 different groups.
The first, and largest by far, were those who simply described life on the farm: pig pickings and cutting wood and planting and harvesting and all the normal things that happened in relatively isolated farm life. They were farmers, and it's pretty hard work. But MOST of these interviews indicated nothing about what they thought of their former masters, or of physical abuse, or anything like that. It was just life on the farm.
The second group - 3 of the 30 sampled (10%) described masters who were abusive and cruel.
This is, interestingly, about the same percentage of women who describe their former husbands as abusive. The truth is, there are some pretty terrible people out there.
The shocking part of my study was the 3rd group.
9 of the 30 (30%) - said exactly the OPPOSITE. Three times the number of those who described abuse.
They said that they LOVED their former masters. They considered them family. In today's PC environment, some of the comments were SHOCKING and UNBELIEVABLE - but, these are FIRST HAND, eye witness accounts by those involved, which simply means that they are the BEST, MOST RELIABLE record of the institution.

I have also said that, whether slaves were treated well or not, I find the idea of chattel slavery disgusting, and am as glad as anyone that it no longer exists.
My problem with most people is that they irrevocably link abuse to Southern slavery. It is VERY CLEAR from the Slave Narratives that that was NOT the case whatsoever. In fact, in a very large number of those cases, there was CLEAR LOVE - in spite of the fact that I believe virtually no one, north or South, considered blacks and whites equal. I did say that it seemed somewhat similar to the very strict upbringing I had 50 years ago. I was NOT IN ANY WAY the equal of my parents. I was not allowed to talk at the table. I was beaten if I misbehaved. Yet, they loved me. In today's society, which has changed much and corporal punishment of children is becoming rare, it is increasingly hard to comprehend, but it is no less true.

There is another part of this that NO ONE ever talks about.
The MILLIONS of white Europeans that sold themselves into slavery to get here.
They literally sold their freedom, giving away every single freedom, right, and privilege, to get here, working side-by-side with African slaves. No difference, except the amount of time given to slavery was limited to agreed upon years. Indentured servants were slaves in every sense of the word - and they VOLUNTEERED for it. In fact, as Abraham Lincoln wrote the Emancipation Proclamation - which freed NO ONE, mind you - he could literally look out the windows of the White House and see a mixture of hundreds of slaves and indentured servants working side by side building the Capitol building - and he did nothing to free them.
Now, if physical abuse had TRULY gone hand-in-hand with slavery, would millions of white Europeans have sold themselves voluntarily into slavery? No.

Someone will try to bend this narrative and say that I am excusing or minimizing the institution of Southern slavery . I am NOT. As I have clearly stated, I find the idea of chattel slavery disgusting, NOT because of physical abuse, which was clearly in a small minority, but because it is in opposition to the dignity and free rights of all men.

And my problem with the hard left, which continue to embrace communistic and socialist ideals, is that they was to move us to slavery themselves, every bit as clearly.

That was an interesting read. Good post!

 

[FLaw47]

Indentured servants were slaves in every sense of the word - and they VOLUNTEERED for it.

THAT IS NOT HOW SLAVERY WORKS

 

[Rychek4]

THAT IS NOT HOW SLAVERY WORKS

Well now that you put it in all caps.....

 

[iceheart08]

No that is NOT what I said.
I said that the US Government, early during the 20th century, created a department called the Works department to create jobs. It was called the Federal Writers Project, and involved about 2300 interviews.
One of the jobs created was to send people throughout the South, with manual typewriters, to interview former slaves, to get first-hand impressions from them of that institution.
These hand-typed interviews are commonly called the Slave Narratives, and are available on-line.
If you go the the right site, you can sort the interviews by state, which I did.
The State of SC had, I don't remember, 2-300 interviews.
I did a random, 30 pc sampling of the interviews - which statisticians would call a "significant sample" with a very high degree or relevance to the overall population.
In the 30 piece sample, impressions by the former slaves quickly divided themselves into 3 different groups.
The first, and largest by far, were those who simply described life on the farm: pig pickings and cutting wood and planting and harvesting and all the normal things that happened in relatively isolated farm life. They were farmers, and it's pretty hard work. But MOST of these interviews indicated nothing about what they thought of their former masters, or of physical abuse, or anything like that. It was just life on the farm.
The second group - 3 of the 30 sampled (10%) described masters who were abusive and cruel.
This is, interestingly, about the same percentage of women who describe their former husbands as abusive. The truth is, there are some pretty terrible people out there.
The shocking part of my study was the 3rd group.
9 of the 30 (30%) - said exactly the OPPOSITE. Three times the number of those who described abuse.
They said that they LOVED their former masters. They considered them family. In today's PC environment, some of the comments were SHOCKING and UNBELIEVABLE - but, these are FIRST HAND, eye witness accounts by those involved, which simply means that they are the BEST, MOST RELIABLE record of the institution.

I have also said that, whether slaves were treated well or not, I find the idea of chattel slavery disgusting, and am as glad as anyone that it no longer exists.
My problem with most people is that they irrevocably link abuse to Southern slavery. It is VERY CLEAR from the Slave Narratives that that was NOT the case whatsoever. In fact, in a very large number of those cases, there was CLEAR LOVE - in spite of the fact that I believe virtually no one, north or South, considered blacks and whites equal. I did say that it seemed somewhat similar to the very strict upbringing I had 50 years ago. I was NOT IN ANY WAY the equal of my parents. I was not allowed to talk at the table. I was beaten if I misbehaved. Yet, they loved me. In today's society, which has changed much and corporal punishment of children is becoming rare, it is increasingly hard to comprehend, but it is no less true.

There is another part of this that NO ONE ever talks about.
The MILLIONS of white Europeans that sold themselves into slavery to get here.
They literally sold their freedom, giving away every single freedom, right, and privilege, to get here, working side-by-side with African slaves. No difference, except the amount of time given to slavery was limited to agreed upon years. Indentured servants were slaves in every sense of the word - and they VOLUNTEERED for it. In fact, as Abraham Lincoln wrote the Emancipation Proclamation - which freed NO ONE, mind you - he could literally look out the windows of the White House and see a mixture of hundreds of slaves and indentured servants working side by side building the Capitol building - and he did nothing to free them.
Now, if physical abuse had TRULY gone hand-in-hand with slavery, would millions of white Europeans have sold themselves voluntarily into slavery? No.

Someone will try to bend this narrative and say that I am excusing or minimizing the institution of Southern slavery . I am NOT. As I have clearly stated, I find the idea of chattel slavery disgusting, NOT because of physical abuse, which was clearly in a small minority, but because it is in opposition to the dignity and free rights of all men.

And my problem with the hard left, which continue to embrace communistic and socialist ideals, is that they was to move us to slavery themselves, every bit as clearly.

the double down.

 

[FLaw47]

the double down.

No it's different, because the white people had it just as bad!

 

[FreeSC]

THAT IS NOT HOW SLAVERY WORKS

It's not how chattel slavery works.
If you give up your freedom (OR lose your freedom), you are a slave - even if you volunteer for it.
Communism is slavery, although it is not chattel slavery (ownership by an individual), you are a slave, nonetheless.

 

[FLaw47]

It's not how chattel slavery works.
If you give up your freedom (OR lose your freedom), you are a slave - even if you volunteer for it.
Communism is slavery, although it is not chattel slavery (ownership by an individual), you are a slave, nonetheless.

Then having an employment contract also makes you a slave?

 

[FreeSC]

No it's different, because the white people had it just as bad!

I never said it was no different. Obviously, it is, because they volunteered for it, and because the length of the slavery was agreed to in advance.
But from the day-to-day experience, overwhelmingly, there was no difference in the work done or the life experience, no.

Why is it people cannot clearly read what is written, and insist on implying things I have not said?
We have a real problem in society.

 

[FreeSC]

Then having an employment contract also makes you a slave?

To some degree, yes, of course. But you AGREE to give up your freedoms, just as those millions of Europeans did.
I work for a major manufacturer.
The Constitution of the US says that I have inalienable (given by God) rights of freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, and the right to keep and bear arms.
But at WORK, I'll PROMISE you, I do NOT have those rights. I have agreed to set them aside while I am at work.

 

[FLaw47]

I never said it was no different. Obviously, it is, because they volunteered for it, and because the length of the slavery was agreed to in advance.
But from the day-to-day experience, overwhelmingly, there was no difference in the work done or the life experience, no.

Why is it people cannot clearly read what is written, and insist on implying things I have not said?
We have a real problem in society.

I'm being needlessly antagonistic, you're right. When you mention indentured servitude in the same breath as slavery and you say that the experience of being an indentured servant was not worse than being a slave it strongly implies one of two things:

1) Indentured servitude was just as bad as slavery (rubs a lot of people the wrong way because as you said it's voluntary)
2) Slavery wasn't all that bad (obviously rubs people the wrong way).

I don't know the context for the original conversation you're referring to. Perhaps that makes a difference. In general, though, it's divisive to take something that's generally (and rightly) considered awful, and make something that's less awful seem just as bad. "Say what you want to about Hitler, at least he didn't gas his own people!" - Sean Spicer (paraphrased referring to Assad). Assad did something really bad. Hitler did something worse. Comparing Hitler favorably to Assad was a bad idea from a PR standpoint. Comparing slavery favorably to anything else will also piss people off.

 

[FLaw47]

To some degree, yes, of course. But you AGREE to give up your freedoms, just as those millions of Europeans did.
I work for a major manufacturer.
The Constitution of the US says that I have inalienable (given by God) rights of freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, and the right to keep and bear arms.
But at WORK, I'll PROMISE you, I do NOT have those rights. I have agreed to set them aside while I am at work.

Ok, I just didn't realize I was a slave for 45 hours a week.

Edit: I did the antagonistic thing again. Listen, you have a point that indentured servitude was bad. You are also probably correct that some slaves were happy (though I take serious exception to your data collection. You took a "statistically significant" sample of a "possibly statistically significant sample" of slave's opinions. Even if we assume that they were all forthcoming (and these individuals likely would have been fairly young, on average, when they were slaves) you've played fast and loose with the term "statistically significant") we gain nothing from pointing it out. "Jesus Christ probably had bad poops at some point in his life". Is that true? Almost certainly. Does it add anything to the dialogue?

 

[blythewood tigers]

Ok, I just didn't realize I was a slave for 45 hours a week.

Edit: I did the antagonistic thing again. Listen, you have a point that indentured servitude was bad. You are also probably correct that some slaves were happy (though I take serious exception to your data collection. You took a "statistically significant" sample of a "possibly statistically significant sample" of slave's opinions. Even if we assume that they were all forthcoming (and these individuals likely would have been fairly young, on average, when they were slaves) you've played fast and loose with the term "statistically significant") we gain nothing from pointing it out. "Jesus Christ probably had bad poops at some point in his life". Is that true? Almost certainly. Does it add anything to the dialogue?

Flaw47, FreeSC is spot on in the comparison. Corporations or no more than a "mini" dictatorship, specifically designed that way by government input. Small private business (whom most are employed by) is somewhat better because "the boss" doesn't want to sacrifice turnover, training, etc.. vs. profit. In other words, it usually takes a real ass to get fired in private business. The only real difference between the two (slavery vs. business) is you can also "voluntarily" quit your job, whereas this was/is not possible living in indentured servitude.

 

[clemben]

I watched that entire Joe Biden video. Grasping at straws. It was a bit awkward, but photographers instruct people to place hands on shoulders, arms do go around waists. I'd tell Biden not to do that if I were advising him, but he didn't do anything morally wrong (and even if he did according to evangelicals these days he could just use grace and why are you judging him anyway and there really isn't any need for personal morality in an era or Trump bc it is all about the persons policies--am I doing that right??)

Aren't you the same folks who hate 'PC' culture and all these movements?

This week my 401k for the first time in a long time isn't giving me a positive rate of return. And these next months are when we transition from economic policy from one admin phasing out and the Trump era policies phasing in.

So thanks Obama?? Gas prices skyrocketing. Stock market down. My retirement down. A tax cut that made rich folks 33k and me 40 bucks and added trillions to the deficit without any spending cuts, making the bond market go crazy bc we can't pay for it. Tariffs? Spending billions on a wall that will cost more than the projections, won't do anything to stop the opioid epidemic and will hurt the overall economy while not fixing the immigration problems at all. Oh and TrumpCare is going to jack up my health insurance premiums next year. All while the president hangs out at his golf courses or rental properties, his family and cabinet make money off of taxpayers or waste taxpayers money (when he isn't firing those 'best people ever'), and he is making calls to Lou Dobbs during cabinet meetings to make actual policy. I'll stop myself because the list just flows...

And I didn't even mention morality in that last paragraph...

Thanks Trumpers. Thanks.