Help me understand something…

[TheSweatshirt]

Just hoping for a serious conversation, which I know is a lot to ask.

One of the major themes around disliking Biden was that he was weak and that empowered Russia and China to take more aggressive stances. But over the last month or two, it’s shifted to one of wanting to give Putin the occupied areas to avoid nuclear war. I read that as wanting him to not be so aggressive and instead accommodate a ruthless dictator who is committing war crimes.

These viewpoints seem diametrically opposed, yet are coming from the same group of people. What has changed that has convinced people to do a 180?

 

[yoshi121374]

Just hoping for a serious conversation, which I know is a lot to ask.

One of the major themes around disliking Biden was that he was weak and that empowered Russia and China to take more aggressive stances. But over the last month or two, it’s shifted to one of wanting to give Putin the occupied areas to avoid nuclear war. I read that as wanting him to not be so aggressive and instead accommodate a ruthless dictator who is committing war crimes.

These viewpoints seem diametrically opposed, yet are coming from the same group of people. What has changed that has convinced people to do a 180?

They are going to be against whichever posture/tactic the opposition party takes. And honestly,it's done by both parties and is one of the parts of American politics.

 

[TheSweatshirt]

They are going to be against whichever posture/tactic the opposition party takes. And honestly,it's done by both parties and is one of the parts of American politics.

I was thinking that both sides know an amped up war is good for the democrats next month. The Republicans just want to end it as quickly as possible while the democrats want to stoke the flames as much as possible.

 

[eubyscott]

They are going to be against whichever posture/tactic the opposition party takes. And honestly,it's done by both parties and is one of the parts of American politics.

Americans 6 favorite words: You are wrong, I am right.

 

[CU Alumnus]

Just hoping for a serious conversation, which I know is a lot to ask.

One of the major themes around disliking Biden was that he was weak and that empowered Russia and China to take more aggressive stances. But over the last month or two, it’s shifted to one of wanting to give Putin the occupied areas to avoid nuclear war. I read that as wanting him to not be so aggressive and instead accommodate a ruthless dictator who is committing war crimes.

These viewpoints seem diametrically opposed, yet are coming from the same group of people. What has changed that has convinced people to do a 180?

Unfortunately, the post below is more correct than I'd like to admit:

They are going to be against whichever posture/tactic the opposition party takes. And honestly,it's done by both parties and is one of the parts of American politics.

I'm a conservative, generally vote Republican, saw good and bad with Trump and do not want him to run again, and think MTG is a 'sexual non-intellectual' (fvcking idiot).

I think the current path is the right one. Support Ukraine, but avoid direct intervention. We cannot let Russia just run hog wild taking over countries.

HOWEVER - there are some downsides to this:

1) A weaker Russia means a stronger China in Asia. This isn't good for the US at all. We need some sort of balance in the area. Even though Russia is not great militarily, they can at least give China pause. But the really scary version is....

2) Russia could possibly get chummy with China. The two generally do not like each other, but they could get chummy if they have to (we hated the Russians in WWII, but guess who we were allied with....).

This is a complex situation. You can justify anything from isolationism to just short of direct intervention without really being an idiot.

 

[CU Alumnus]

They are going to be against whichever posture/tactic the opposition party takes. And honestly,it's done by both parties and is one of the parts of American politics.

Quoting again because this is really at the core of a lot of our problems.

One party takes a position on something, the other takes the opposite, and the moderates get kinda caught in the middle. The ones who think "you know, we really shouldn't discriminate against trans people, but it's really kinda stupid to have 10 year old kids getting their junk cut off" are kinda stuck. (I picked this as an example).

Then the one side says "See, those other guys wanna turn your little boys into little girls." Then the other side says "See, THOSE guys wanna send all trans people to concentration camps" (or some damn thing).

Next thing we know, people start thinking that they have to pick one extreme or the other. Even if 90% of each party ACTUALLY holds a reasonable position.

 

[yoshi121374]

Quoting again because this is really at the core of a lot of our problems.

One party takes a position on something, the other takes the opposite, and the moderates get kinda caught in the middle. The ones who think "you know, we really shouldn't discriminate against trans people, but it's really kinda stupid to have 10 year old kids getting their junk cut off" are kinda stuck. (I picked this as an example).

Then the one side says "See, those other guys wanna turn your little boys into little girls." Then the other side says "See, THOSE guys wanna send all trans people to concentration camps" (or some damn thing).

Next thing we know, people start thinking that they have to pick one extreme or the other. Even if 90% of each party ACTUALLY holds a reasonable position.

This is absolutely correct. We have lost all ability to have nuanced discussion without demonizing people who disagree with us. We have decided that compromise is a bad word. Social media has given way to big of a voice to the very vocal minorities on the far outside of our political parties.

We badly need a moderate who is popular and could create some consensus. Both parties just rips apart moderate candidates at this point. I couldn't imagine trying to run for public office.

Honestly, I am not a Biden fan, but there has been some improved moves towards the middle and we have gotten some things accomplished such as gun laws. We have also seen a calming of some of the rhetoric that came from Trump that was really bad for America. We so badly need our government to function again.

 

[CU Alumnus]

This is absolutely correct. We have lost all ability to have nuanced discussion without demonizing people who disagree with us. We have decided that compromise is a bad word. Social media has given way to big of a voice to the very vocal minorities on the far outside of our political parties.

We badly need a moderate who is popular and could create some consensus. Both parties just rips apart moderate candidates at this point. I couldn't imagine trying to run for public office.

Honestly, I am not a Biden fan, but there has been some improved moves towards the middle and we have gotten some things accomplished such as gun laws. We have also seen a claming of some of the rhetoric that came from Trump that was really bad for America. We so badly need our government to function again.

"The good thing about social media is it gives everyone a voice. The bad thing about social media is it gives everyone a voice."

Gun laws are probably a better example than I used, honestly. One extreme says ban everything, the other wants me to be able to buy an M2 Browning at Wal-Mart. Those in the middle get torn apart.

Seriously - what gun laws have been advanced under Biden though? "Bump stocks" - which I always considered more of a 'toy' than a serious addition to a weapon - were banned under Trump I think.

 

[yoshi121374]

"The good thing about social media is it gives everyone a voice. The bad thing about social media is it gives everyone a voice."

Gun laws are probably a better example than I used, honestly. One extreme says ban everything, the other wants me to be able to buy an M2 Browning at Wal-Mart. Those in the middle get torn apart.

Seriously - what gun laws have been advanced under Biden though? "Bump stocks" - which I always considered more of a 'toy' than a serious addition to a weapon - were banned under Trump I think.

Biden signs gun safety bill into law

The president's signing comes just over a month after the mass shooting at an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas, killed 19 children and two adults.

www.npr.org

Basically expanded age requirements for background check to 21. Added Red Flag laws.

 

[CU Alumnus]

Biden signs gun safety bill into law

The president's signing comes just over a month after the mass shooting at an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas, killed 19 children and two adults.

www.npr.org

Basically expanded age requirements for background check to 21. Added Red Flag laws.

Thanks. I honestly couldn't remember.

 

[yoshi121374]

Thanks. I honestly couldn't remember.

It, too me, was a good example that we can find common ground if we are willing to compromise on stuff that the majority agree with. It's so frustrating to see stalemate since agreeing with the other party about anything will get you killed in elections.

 

[Hammerdawg.NEAR]

This is absolutely correct. We have lost all ability to have nuanced discussion without demonizing people who disagree with us. We have decided that compromise is a bad word. Social media has given way to big of a voice to the very vocal minorities on the far outside of our political parties.

We badly need a moderate who is popular and could create some consensus. Both parties just rips apart moderate candidates at this point. I couldn't imagine trying to run for public office.

Honestly, I am not a Biden fan, but there has been some improved moves towards the middle and we have gotten some things accomplished such as gun laws. We have also seen a calming of some of the rhetoric that came from Trump that was really bad for America. We so badly need our government to function again.

Did you miss his speech a couple weeks back where he literally called half the country right wing extremists and domestic terrorists? That rhetoric was exponentially worse than anything Trump ever said

Yet nobody is talking about it. Funny how that works.

 

[yoshi121374]

Did you miss his speech a couple weeks back where he literally called half the country right wing extremists and domestic terrorists? That rhetoric was exponentially worse than anything Trump ever said

Yet nobody is talking about it. Funny how that works.

You are exactly the type of person who should have less input and less of a voice.

 

[Hammerdawg.NEAR]

You are exactly the type of person who should have less input and less of a voice.

Lmao. You’re such a butthurt little man

So don’t admit you’re wrong and address Biden’s ridiculous rhetoric, just circle back to Trump and talk like a 15 year old girl on her period. Typical

Gotta keep things centric

 

[WapPride]

Did you miss his speech a couple weeks back where he literally called half the country right wing extremists and domestic terrorists? That rhetoric was exponentially worse than anything Trump ever said

Yet nobody is talking about it. Funny how that works.

didn't CPAC have a huge banner up saying "we are domestic terrorists" ?

sounds like he's just calling a spade a spade

edit: that must've been after his comments - but you'll get no argument from me against calling MAGAs what they are

 

[yoshi121374]

Lmao. You’re such a butthurt little man

So don’t admit you’re wrong and address Biden’s ridiculous rhetoric, just circle back to Trump and talk like a 15 year old girl on her period. Typical

Gotta keep things centric

Says the dude he used a swastika for an avatar. Forgive me if ai don't give a crap what you think.

 

[TheSweatshirt]

Did you miss his speech a couple weeks back where he literally called half the country right wing extremists and domestic terrorists? That rhetoric was exponentially worse than anything Trump ever said

Yet nobody is talking about it. Funny how that works.

I talked about it. Love the message, but they delivery was meh.

You might want to look up what "literally" and "half" mean as he was referring to a segment of the population on the right, though it is getting bigger. Over 50% of republican candidates for Nov races are election deniers. Those are people who do not respect democracy. They attacked the capital. They wanted to hang the VP. They threaten poll workers. The Oath Keepers have infiltrated both local and federal law enforcement. They are domestic terrorists by definition.

Biden was very supportive of DeSantis after Ian and even complimented him. I thought it was a very classy move.

the reason more people aren't talking about it is because what he stated was grounded in reality, and not the nonsense that Trump peddled to his minions.

 

[iceheart08]

Says the dude he used a swastika for an avatar. Forgive me if ai don't give a crap what you think.

Yea. He's the only person I've ever blocked on this board. Took 17 years too.

 

[Hammerdawg.NEAR]

Yea. He's the only person I've ever blocked on this board. Took 17 years too.

Charmin soft

 

[Hammerdawg.NEAR]

I talked about it. Love the message, but they delivery was meh.

You might want to look up what "literally" and "half" mean as he was referring to a segment of the population on the right, though it is getting bigger. Over 50% of republican candidates for Nov races are election deniers. Those are people who do not respect democracy. They attacked the capital. They wanted to hang the VP. They threaten poll workers. The Oath Keepers have infiltrated both local and federal law enforcement. They are domestic terrorists by definition.

Biden was very supportive of DeSantis after Ian and even complimented him. I thought it was a very classy move.

the reason more people aren't talking about it is because what he stated was grounded in reality, and not the nonsense that Trump peddled to his minions.

So over 50% of republicans are election deniers who don’t support democracy, but he was only vilifying a small portion of the right so it’s no big deal. But it’s getting bigger. Whatever that means

 

[PawsFan_]

Just hoping for a serious conversation, which I know is a lot to ask.

One of the major themes around disliking Biden was that he was weak and that empowered Russia and China to take more aggressive stances. But over the last month or two, it’s shifted to one of wanting to give Putin the occupied areas to avoid nuclear war. I read that as wanting him to not be so aggressive and instead accommodate a ruthless dictator who is committing war crimes.

These viewpoints seem diametrically opposed, yet are coming from the same group of people. What has changed that has convinced people to do a 180?

The "nuclear war" narrative is pushed by Russia. They want to put fear in the West to pressure Z to the negotiating table. Z has no reason to talk now. He's winning.

The likelihood of nuclear war is the same as its ever been. Low

 

[PawsFan_]

This is absolutely correct. We have lost all ability to have nuanced discussion without demonizing people who disagree with us. We have decided that compromise is a bad word. Social media has given way to big of a voice to the very vocal minorities on the far outside of our political parties.

We badly need a moderate who is popular and could create some consensus. Both parties just rips apart moderate candidates at this point. I couldn't imagine trying to run for public office.

Honestly, I am not a Biden fan, but there has been some improved moves towards the middle and we have gotten some things accomplished such as gun laws. We have also seen a calming of some of the rhetoric that came from Trump that was really bad for America. We so badly need our government to function again.

Great first two paragraphs. Couldn't agree more.

Then you stumble with the third paragraph. There is nothing "middle" about this administration or Congress.

 

[yoshi121374]

Great first two paragraphs. Couldn't agree more.

Then you stumble with the third paragraph. There is nothing "middle" about this administration or Congress.

Maybe not congress, but I would suggest Biden is more moderate than the most vocal of his party.

While Biden wasn't my first choice, he was the most moderate of the candidates and I found it interesting that the Dems moved towards the middle when nominating him.

 

[TheSweatshirt]

So over 50% of republicans are election deniers who don’t support democracy, but he was only vilifying a small portion of the right so it’s no big deal. But it’s getting bigger. Whatever that means

Serious question - are you drunk?

I never said a small portion of the right. Work on your reading abilities. I never said he was vilifying. I said they fit the definition of domestic terrorists.

You seem like the perfect candidate to fall for misinformation because you read poorly and get outraged easily without knowing what you are talking about.

 

[TheSweatshirt]

The "nuclear war" narrative is pushed by Russia. They want to put fear in the West to pressure Z to the negotiating table. Z has no reason to talk now. He's winning.

The likelihood of nuclear war is the same as its ever been. Low

I don't doubt that at all. Totally agree with both sentences. What I was trying to understand is that so many on the right are now wanting to appease Putin in the name of ending the war. It's contrary to many of the concerns folks had about Biden (myself included). I was worried about how weak he was going to be but think he's handled Ukraine very well.

 

[anon_5e8aassgcbjz1]

I don't doubt that at all. Totally agree with both sentences. What I was trying to understand is that so many on the right are now wanting to appease Putin in the name of ending the war. It's contrary to many of the concerns folks had about Biden (myself included). I was worried about how weak he was going to be but think he's handled Ukraine very well.

Trump could piss on them and they’d call it rain. There’s not much to understand. You’re dealing with a bunch of rubes or pseudo-intellectual asshats that are unilaterally cynical out of convenience to what they choose to believe.

 

[CU Alumnus]

I don't doubt that at all. Totally agree with both sentences. What I was trying to understand is that so many on the right are now wanting to appease Putin in the name of ending the war. It's contrary to many of the concerns folks had about Biden (myself included). I was worried about how weak he was going to be but think he's handled Ukraine very well.

Who is wanting to do this? Besides TV talking heads....

 

[OleFastball]

Just hoping for a serious conversation, which I know is a lot to ask.

One of the major themes around disliking Biden was that he was weak and that empowered Russia and China to take more aggressive stances. But over the last month or two, it’s shifted to one of wanting to give Putin the occupied areas to avoid nuclear war. I read that as wanting him to not be so aggressive and instead accommodate a ruthless dictator who is committing war crimes.

These viewpoints seem diametrically opposed, yet are coming from the same group of people. What has changed that has convinced people to do a 180?

We shouldn't give Putin Ukraine. Ukraine, not the US, should fight for it.

Why do we need to get involved? What did Joe promise his business partners?

 

[anon_5e8aassgcbjz1]

We shouldn't give Putin Ukraine. Ukraine, not the US, should fight for it.

Why do we need to get involved? What did Joe promise his business partners?

I’d rather not live in a world where Russia is free to roll through Eastern Europe threatening nuclear war if it doesn’t get its way. Not giving them the means to properly repel the invasion is tantamount to surrendering Ukraine.

What did Putin promise Trump for his fealty?

 

[OleFastball]

I’d rather not live in a world where Russia is free to roll through Eastern Europe threatening nuclear war if it doesn’t get its way. Not giving them the means to properly repel the invasion is tantamount to surrendering Ukraine.

What did Putin promise Trump for his fealty?

We should protect our Allies. Ukraine is not a member of NATO and Putin has a rational reason for being upset with Ukraine whether we like it or not.


Putin didn’t promise Trump anything, Trump knew how to handle him, evidenced by the relationship during his time as president.

so Russia can’t “roll through Europe” that’s a false argument. The minute he attacks a NATO member it’s on like donkey Kong. But we simply can’t be the worlds police. We shouldn’t be losing any of our men to a fight that should be between Russia and Ukraine.

why should the US have the right to handpick a government for Ukraine in Russias back yard? Would the US allow Russia to install a communist regime in Canada (haha they have already done that on their own) . I don’t think we would be too happy about that.

 

[anon_5e8aassgcbjz1]

We should protect our Allies. Ukraine is not a member of NATO and Putin has a rational reason for being upset with Ukraine whether we like it or not.


Putin didn’t promise Trump anything, Trump knew how to handle him, evidenced by the relationship during his time as president.

so Russia can’t “roll through Europe” that’s a false argument. The minute he attacks a NATO member it’s on like donkey Kong. But we simply can’t be the worlds police. We shouldn’t be losing any of our men to a fight that should be between Russia and Ukraine.

why should the US have the right to handpick a government for Ukraine in Russias back yard? Would the US allow Russia to install a communist regime in Canada (haha they have already done that on their own) . I don’t think we would be too happy about that.

Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea aren’t members of NATO either. Putin doesn’t see Ukraine as a legitimate state. In that regard, his viewpoint is not rational.

Trump and Putin love each other I’m sure.

If you’re willing to go to war over Estonia getting invaded, I don’t see why you’d have an issue with our support to Ukraine thus far. We’ve not lost anyone serving on behalf of the US military in Ukraine, Russia’s military and economic capabilities will be degraded in the long term, and it’s a boon to domestic defense companies.

What government did we handpick? Ukraine tossed out Paul Manafort’s pal and had elections. And no, we wouldn’t allow such a thing, and it wouldn’t happen for two reasons anyway. 1. Russia can’t help them. 2. America doesn’t have any intention of launching an invasion of Canada on the basis that “communists” or “Nazis” are in charge there

What came of Russia’s whining and threats about Finland joining NATO? They nuke Helsinki yet?

 

[leetp]

Just hoping for a serious conversation, which I know is a lot to ask.

One of the major themes around disliking Biden was that he was weak and that empowered Russia and China to take more aggressive stances. But over the last month or two, it’s shifted to one of wanting to give Putin the occupied areas to avoid nuclear war. I read that as wanting him to not be so aggressive and instead accommodate a ruthless dictator who is committing war crimes.

These viewpoints seem diametrically opposed, yet are coming from the same group of people. What has changed that has convinced people to do a 180?

It's simple, really. Oppose the despot now, or later when he he has an even tighter grip on Europe's throat? What, too, about Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Guam, Alaska....see where this is going?

 

[anon_5e8aassgcbjz1]

It's simple, really. Oppose the despot now, or later when he he has an even tighter grip on Europe's throat? What, too, about Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Guam, Alaska....see where this is going?

No no you’ve got it all wrong! We let Putin take Ukraine, and he’ll be on our side if/when China invades Taiwan. He promises!