Hopefully this breaks the dam on school choice

[Willence]

This is so fantastic. I just pray that it sweeps the nation and that kids with less opportunity will now have the chance to change their lives!

Arizona’s New Law Funds Students, Not Just Government-Run Schools

It's good to watch your state lose its lead as a school choice innovator not because it's backsliding, but because other states are making it easier for

reason.com

 

[yoshi121374]

This is so fantastic. I just pray that it sweeps the nation and that kids with less opportunity will now have the chance to change their lives!

Arizona’s New Law Funds Students, Not Just Government-Run Schools

It's good to watch your state lose its lead as a school choice innovator not because it's backsliding, but because other states are making it easier for

reason.com

School Choice/Vouchers isn't choice. It just takes money out of education for lower income people who cannot afford Private School.

I don't have kids at all, should I demand a refund? Maybe I actually benefit by having an educated population to provide more productive workers so we have better services.

I always enjoy the debate/discussion with you, but we are very far apart on Public Education and probably won't ever agree.

 

[DW4_2016]

This is so fantastic. I just pray that it sweeps the nation and that kids with less opportunity will now have the chance to change their lives!

Arizona’s New Law Funds Students, Not Just Government-Run Schools

It's good to watch your state lose its lead as a school choice innovator not because it's backsliding, but because other states are making it easier for

reason.com

i always wonder why there is such a big correlation when a lot of private schools were built in the south and when public schools were integrated. crazy coincidence, for a place that definitely isn't racist.

 

[clempzenbill]

School Choice/Vouchers isn't choice. It just takes money out of education for lower income people who cannot afford Private School.

I don't have kids at all, should I demand a refund? Maybe I actually benefit by having an educated population to provide more productive workers so we have better services.

I always enjoy the debate/discussion with you, but we are very far apart on Public Education and probably won't ever agree.

It takes money out of a totally failed PUBLIC education system. Believe it or not you CAN be educated somewhere besides the union and permanent political class run failed public schools where parents are labeled terrorists simply by showing up to school board meetings and demanding input on what their own children are being taught. Decades ago the US had one of the best public systems in the world, now it slides further and further down with most of its students not being proficient in basic subjects. Many parents can afford the difference between a voucher and tuition to a vastly better private school. Charter schools work and the competition will force the pathetic public schools to improve their product or suffer more student losses. Governments offer a one size fits all mentality in everything they do. Governments have zero incentive to improve or change. Arrogant leftists will always tell us commoners to take what they offer and pound sand if they don’t like it, but in reality these elitists send their own kids to PRIVATE schools, so spare me the condescending attitude that there should only be one choice and that anything else can’t work because you say so. The comparative testing evidence and the hypocritical behavior of the elites overwhelmingly says otherwise.

 

[Spencer_York]

It takes money out of a totally failed PUBLIC education system. Believe it or not you CAN be educated somewhere besides the union and permanent political class run failed public schools where parents are labeled terrorists simply by showing up to school board meetings and demanding input on what their own children are being taught. Decades ago the US had one of the best public systems in the world, now it slides further and further down with most of its students not being proficient in basic subjects. Many parents can afford the difference between a voucher and tuition to a vastly better private school. Charter schools work and the competition will force the pathetic public schools to improve their product or suffer more student losses. Governments offer a one size fits all mentality in everything they do. Governments have zero incentive to improve or change. Arrogant leftists will always tell us commoners to take what they offer and pound sand if they don’t like it, but in reality these elitists send their own kids to PRIVATE schools, so spare me the condescending attitude that there should only be one choice and that anything else can’t work because you say so. The comparative testing evidence and the hypocritical behavior of the elites overwhelmingly says otherwise.

I'm a high school teacher. I'm not part of a teachers union but I would be if I could. Yes, some charter schools are good. Others however, suck. They exist to further defund public institutions and break the bargaining power of labor (teachers in this case.) Governments do have incentive to improve or change, it is when voters and constituents get mad and demand change.

Public schools stink due to lack of funding. It is a self reinforcing cycle. Here is what happens: School loses funding, cuts services (such as libraries, arts, teachers aids, reading coaches, SPED support) and can't replace teachers, the school gets worse as people are forced to do more with less and teachers see their class sizes balloon *while* they lose resources to help their students, when these schools get worse, politicians who don't like public schools say "See? I told you this stuff doesn't work! We can't give money to failing institutions!", funding is cut, and the cycle worsens.

Look, I think parent involvement in schools is good. But oftentimes parents don't know what the hell they are talking about. Look at the Critical Race Theory blowup. It was a completely astroturfed and non grass roots campaign created by people at RW think tanks. The parents had no idea what they were talking about. Shoot, some of the people who were protesting didn't even send their kids to those public schools!

 

[PAWrocka]

i always wonder why there is such a big correlation when a lot of private schools were built in the south and when public schools were integrated. crazy coincidence, for a place that definitely isn't racist.

fun fact ... and its football related ... If you have ever read "Friday Night Lights" there was a significant part of one of the early chapters that discussed desegregation and the debate where the line was for the Perriman and Odessa school districts.... It all was based on which school would get the most black football players

 

[yoshi121374]

It takes money out of a totally failed PUBLIC education system. Believe it or not you CAN be educated somewhere besides the union and permanent political class run failed public schools where parents are labeled terrorists simply by showing up to school board meetings and demanding input on what their own children are being taught. Decades ago the US had one of the best public systems in the world, now it slides further and further down with most of its students not being proficient in basic subjects. Many parents can afford the difference between a voucher and tuition to a vastly better private school. Charter schools work and the competition will force the pathetic public schools to improve their product or suffer more student losses. Governments offer a one size fits all mentality in everything they do. Governments have zero incentive to improve or change. Arrogant leftists will always tell us commoners to take what they offer and pound sand if they don’t like it, but in reality these elitists send their own kids to PRIVATE schools, so spare me the condescending attitude that there should only be one choice and that anything else can’t work because you say so. The comparative testing evidence and the hypocritical behavior of the elites overwhelmingly says otherwise.

As stated below this is an incredibly ignorant post. Just too many things wrong to address, and the other posts correct you, but for the love of God actually talk to some teachers, visit a school, find out what really goes on. Also, SC doesn't have a Teacher's Union.

 

[Willence]

School Choice/Vouchers isn't choice. It just takes money out of education for lower income people who cannot afford Private School.

I don't have kids at all, should I demand a refund? Maybe I actually benefit by having an educated population to provide more productive workers so we have better services.

I always enjoy the debate/discussion with you, but we are very far apart on Public Education and probably won't ever agree.

Public schools stink due to lack of funding. It is a self reinforcing cycle. Here is what happens: School loses funding, cuts services (such as libraries, arts, teachers aids, reading coaches, SPED support) and can't replace teachers, the school gets worse as people are forced to do more with less and teachers see their class sizes balloon *while* they lose resources to help their students, when these schools get worse, politicians who don't like public schools say "See? I told you this stuff doesn't work! We can't give money to failing institutions!", funding is cut, and the cycle worsens.

At $6,500 per student, you can almost pay the entire tuition. By allowing the dollars to follow the student we would increase competition in education to demand more. No offense meant here @yoshi121374 but if you don't have kids, your opinion is one of policy not practice. Have kids and see how rotten our system is and then we can talk more about it. That's in no way designed to impugn the efforts of your wife as a teacher. As I mentioned previously, my wife taught in public schools for 12 years in Title I schools. We have been there and done that.

@Spencer_York you can say we lack funding but we spend more on education (per student) than any nation on Earth not named Luxembourg. We precious little for it. As I have said so many times, a government should never be responsible for educating its citizens. We don't have funding issues. We have corruption and poor practice issues.

Iron sharpens iron in all things and that includes education. Our public education system is an abject failure and a lot of that is because it's been allowed to be. Pumping more money into it won't fix things. We need to re-imagine how education works and start truly providing opportunity to break the awful cycles we have everywhere in our society. I'm just not willing to sit back and let this crap go on any longer. There are so many things we can do and at the top of the list is providing choice and opportunity for kids and their education. I know firsthand what that can do. It's staggering how far ahead my kids are because of the educational opportunities we've been able to provide them.

 

[DW4_2016]

At $6,500 per student, you can almost pay the entire tuition. By allowing the dollars to follow the student we would increase competition in education to demand more. No offense meant here @yoshi121374 but if you don't have kids, your opinion is one of policy not practice. Have kids and see how rotten our system is and then we can talk more about it. That's in no way designed to impugn the efforts of your wife as a teacher. As I mentioned previously, my wife taught in public schools for 12 years in Title I schools. We have been there and done that.

@Spencer_York you can say we lack funding but we spend more on education (per student) than any nation on Earth not named Luxembourg. We precious little for it. As I have said so many times, a government should never be responsible for educating its citizens. We don't have funding issues. We have corruption and poor practice issues.

Iron sharpens iron in all things and that includes education. Our public education system is an abject failure and a lot of that is because it's been allowed to be. Pumping more money into it won't fix things. We need to re-imagine how education works and start truly providing opportunity to break the awful cycles we have everywhere in our society. I'm just not willing to sit back and let this crap go on any longer. There are so many things we can do and at the top of the list is providing choice and opportunity for kids and their education. I know firsthand what that can do. It's staggering how far ahead my kids are because of the educational opportunities we've been able to provide them.

if you pay the tax you have a voice. that's how it works. shouldn't have anything to do with having kids or not. or you can just stop taxing people who don't have kids for dumb shit like education.

also, if you think having less funding is going to change things at a public school, you're right. if you want things to be right from the top down, run for school board.

 

[scotchtiger]

if you pay the tax you have a voice. that's how it works.

Does that mean people who aren't net tax contributors don't have a voice?

 

[iceheart08]

It takes money out of a totally failed PUBLIC education system. Believe it or not you CAN be educated somewhere besides the union and permanent political class run failed public schools where parents are labeled terrorists simply by showing up to school board meetings and demanding input on what their own children are being taught. Decades ago the US had one of the best public systems in the world, now it slides further and further down with most of its students not being proficient in basic subjects. Many parents can afford the difference between a voucher and tuition to a vastly better private school. Charter schools work and the competition will force the pathetic public schools to improve their product or suffer more student losses. Governments offer a one size fits all mentality in everything they do. Governments have zero incentive to improve or change. Arrogant leftists will always tell us commoners to take what they offer and pound sand if they don’t like it, but in reality these elitists send their own kids to PRIVATE schools, so spare me the condescending attitude that there should only be one choice and that anything else can’t work because you say so. The comparative testing evidence and the hypocritical behavior of the elites overwhelmingly says otherwise.

This is an insane post totally unrelated to reality.

 

[DW4_2016]

Does that mean people who aren't net tax contributors don't have a voice?

unfortunately for you everyone with a vote has a voice.

 

[Spencer_York]

At $6,500 per student, you can almost pay the entire tuition. By allowing the dollars to follow the student we would increase competition in education to demand more. No offense meant here @yoshi121374 but if you don't have kids, your opinion is one of policy not practice. Have kids and see how rotten our system is and then we can talk more about it. That's in no way designed to impugn the efforts of your wife as a teacher. As I mentioned previously, my wife taught in public schools for 12 years in Title I schools. We have been there and done that.

@Spencer_York you can say we lack funding but we spend more on education (per student) than any nation on Earth not named Luxembourg. We precious little for it. As I have said so many times, a government should never be responsible for educating its citizens. We don't have funding issues. We have corruption and poor practice issues.

Iron sharpens iron in all things and that includes education. Our public education system is an abject failure and a lot of that is because it's been allowed to be. Pumping more money into it won't fix things. We need to re-imagine how education works and start truly providing opportunity to break the awful cycles we have everywhere in our society. I'm just not willing to sit back and let this crap go on any longer. There are so many things we can do and at the top of the list is providing choice and opportunity for kids and their education. I know firsthand what that can do. It's staggering how far ahead my kids are because of the educational opportunities we've been able to provide them.

Right, so fix corruption rather than cutting funding/place the funding where it needs to go. The problem is the bureaucracy that has been built up in some areas that just siphons money off the top. I have a friend who's mother teaches in NYC. She raised $1 million for their school library but half of that got sucked up by the Board of Ed and she never saw any of it. There are always rumors here in Chicago of contracts that include paying $40/bottle of bleach.

The United States has spends the most on health care of any country in the world per capita yet our health care is getting worse. That is because the money is going to line the pockets of admin, execs, and bureaucrats in the insurance industry rather than where it needs to go. This is similar to education. The solution is to cut the profit motive out of education and out of health care. The solution is efficient public funding which is why I am in favor of *robust* public education and public health care.

I fundamentally disagree that government shouldn't be responsible for educating citizens. But I'm not a conservative/libertarian.

 

[CUFam98]

I'm as fiscally conservative as they come, but even I don't think public school money should go to private schools.

1) If you want to go to private school, pay the tuition or get scholarships. Many of the private schools overcharge others to scholarship a few
2) Putting "stipend" dollars into education never works out the way they intend. Look at Hope scholarships and similar. The scholarships don't cover the full cost, but the school can't balance bill recipients. So what do they do, drive up the cost of tuition for those aren't covered by those lottery funded scholarships.


However, I would be 100% in favor of someone being able to take that money to another public school. You shouldn't be trapped into a bad school because of a zip code. There are very few counties and school districts with only 1 school AND that 1 school be a failing school.

 

[Willence]

I'm as fiscally conservative as they come, but even I don't think public school money should go to private schools.

1) If you want to go to private school, pay the tuition or get scholarships. Many of the private schools overcharge others to scholarship a few
2) Putting "stipend" dollars into education never works out the way they intend. Look at Hope scholarships and similar. The scholarships don't cover the full cost, but the school can't balance bill recipients. So what do they do, drive up the cost of tuition for those aren't covered by those lottery funded scholarships.


However, I would be 100% in favor of someone being able to take that money to another public school. You shouldn't be trapped into a bad school because of a zip code. There are very few counties and school districts with only 1 school AND that 1 school be a failing school.

Public schooling does not work as it is presently constituted. There's no possible way to make it work either. This is not a one-size-fits-all country and the problems faced within a single School district vary widely. Originally schooling was intended to be community-based and that method might work but these large public school districts with tons of layers and one size fits all solutions from the top down do not function effectively. They just take money and waste it and they also waste the learning lives of our children. We need to completely untether ourselves from this public education model and start over.

 

[yoshi121374]

Public schooling does not work as it is presently constituted. There's no possible way to make it work either. This is not a one-size-fits-all country and the problems faced within a single School district vary widely. Originally schooling was intended to be community-based and that method might work but these large public school districts with tons of layers and one size fits all solutions from the top down do not function effectively. They just take money and waste it and they also waste the learning lives of our children. We need to completely untether ourselves from this public education model and start over.

Again, you make a huge blanket statement when you state that "Public Schooling does not work". That's just factually wrong. Many schools and districts perform better than private schools and charters. I don't then say, "Private School and Charter Schools are all failing"

Fix the issues, but all aren't bad or failing. In fact most aren't failing.

 

[Cocks are Number 1]

i always wonder why there is such a big correlation when a lot of private schools were built in the south and when public schools were integrated. crazy coincidence, for a place that definitely isn't racist.

Do you have kids? Still trying to understand your perspective.

 

[nytigerfan]

This is so fantastic. I just pray that it sweeps the nation and that kids with less opportunity will now have the chance to change their lives!

Arizona’s New Law Funds Students, Not Just Government-Run Schools

It's good to watch your state lose its lead as a school choice innovator not because it's backsliding, but because other states are making it easier for

reason.com

I am sure this will benefit the poors at a higher rate just as much as those education lotteries have.

 

[Willence]

I am sure this will benefit the poors at a higher rate just as much as those education lotteries have.

If we make a priority out of benefiting everyone which is something that many would insist on then we will see great benefit for people who come from impoverished backgrounds. There's no reason that we just need to poo-poo everything because it's a change. So often I see people shooting everything down because it alters the status quo. The status quo is failing in an epic level. Please show me where the so-called "poor's" you referred to are benefiting from the current system? As for me, I call those people brothers and sisters and fellow Americans who have sacred worth and great value to our society.

 

[clempzenbill]

I'm a high school teacher. I'm not part of a teachers union but I would be if I could. Yes, some charter schools are good. Others however, suck. They exist to further defund public institutions and break the bargaining power of labor (teachers in this case.) Governments do have incentive to improve or change, it is when voters and constituents get mad and demand change.

Public schools stink due to lack of funding. It is a self reinforcing cycle. Here is what happens: School loses funding, cuts services (such as libraries, arts, teachers aids, reading coaches, SPED support) and can't replace teachers, the school gets worse as people are forced to do more with less and teachers see their class sizes balloon *while* they lose resources to help their students, when these schools get worse, politicians who don't like public schools say "See? I told you this stuff doesn't work! We can't give money to failing institutions!", funding is cut, and the cycle worsens.

Look, I think parent involvement in schools is good. But oftentimes parents don't know what the hell they are talking about. Look at the Critical Race Theory blowup. It was a completely astroturfed and non grass roots campaign created by people at RW think tanks. The parents had no idea what they were talking about. Shoot, some of the people who were protesting didn't even send their kids to those public schools!

What country on this planet spends more on public schools? There are thirty countries or more that spend far less and have better results. I think last I heard DC schools spent $11,000 per child with horrible results as a more agregious example. LA, Houston, Chicago and NY are right there with them. I hope you’re not against poor and middle class having more than one rotten choice. I see no reason to subjugate people to whatever happens to be in their area.
Public education could be the poster child for what’s wrong with bloated, wasteful, unyielding,unresponsive, unaccountable, one size fits all bureaucracies..

CRT is a disgusting, degrading, racist, Marxist, cancer which teaches white children that they are morally inferior, racist, oppressive, privileged and automatically guilty because of being white. It’s horribly destructive and devisive to young impressionable minds, just plain evil and it is being taught in public schools by radical leftists. . Even out here in Oconee County a principle was caught trying to introduce it and it was squelched. It’s much more pervasive than your seem to be aware of. It’s making its way through many many State and Federal agencies and must be stopped.

 

[yoshi121374]

What country on this planet spends more on public schools? There are thirty countries or more that spend far less and have better results. I think last I heard DC schools spent $11,000 per child with horrible results as a more agregious example. LA, Houston, Chicago and NY are right there with them. I hope you’re not against poor and middle class having more than one rotten choice. I see no reason to subjugate people to whatever happens to be in their area.
Public education could be the poster child for what’s wrong with bloated, wasteful, unyielding,unresponsive, unaccountable, one size fits all bureaucracies..

CRT is a disgusting, degrading, racist, Marxist, cancer which teaches white children that they are morally inferior, racist, oppressive, privileged and automatically guilty because of being white. It’s horribly destructive and devisive to young impressionable minds, just plain evil and it is being taught in public schools by radical leftists. . Even out here in Oconee County a principle was caught trying to introduce it and it was squelched. It’s much more pervasive than your seem to be aware of. It’s making its way through many many State and Federal agencies and must be stopped.

CRT is a scare tactic used by the right to fire up ignorant,racist voters. It is not happening like you are being told.

Talk to an actual teacher, quit reading/listening to right wing propaganda.

 

[Willence]

CRT is a scare tactic used by the right to fire up ignorant,racist voters. It is not happening like you are being told.

Talk to an actual teacher, quit reading/listening to right wing propaganda.

You can't speak for the entire country. I've seen plenty of examples, real examples. It may not be happening in the way people think where your wife works but that doesn't mean it's not happening. You don't know what the hell you're talking about when it comes to this. And I have talked to actual teachers. A lot of them. Stop listening to left-wing media designed to make you blind to the reality of the world. Stop throwing around the racist moniker if I find myself offended by these things. That's really ridiculous for you to make that kind of stereotypical charge against someone who is offended by any teachings of this nature. You don't have the first clue and I would advise you to get one with respect to what's going on. And no, I didn't get this from Fox News because I don't watch Fox News ever!

 

[dpic73]

What country on this planet spends more on public schools? There are thirty countries or more that spend far less and have better results. I think last I heard DC schools spent $11,000 per child with horrible results as a more agregious example. LA, Houston, Chicago and NY are right there with them. I hope you’re not against poor and middle class having more than one rotten choice. I see no reason to subjugate people to whatever happens to be in their area.
Public education could be the poster child for what’s wrong with bloated, wasteful, unyielding,unresponsive, unaccountable, one size fits all bureaucracies..

CRT is a disgusting, degrading, racist, Marxist, cancer which teaches white children that they are morally inferior, racist, oppressive, privileged and automatically guilty because of being white. It’s horribly destructive and devisive to young impressionable minds, just plain evil and it is being taught in public schools by radical leftists. . Even out here in Oconee County a principle was caught trying to introduce it and it was squelched. It’s much more pervasive than your seem to be aware of. It’s making its way through many many State and Federal agencies and must be stopped.

And you just outed yourself! I suspected all along that your real issue was the fear that going to school with people from all different backgrounds would make children turn into Democrats. Oh the horror!

That's in in a nutshell - all the rest of your words are just a distraction from saying the words out loud. SMFH

 

[iceheart08]

You can't speak for the entire country. I've seen plenty of examples, real examples. It may not be happening in the way people think where your wife works but that doesn't mean it's not happening. You don't know what the hell you're talking about when it comes to this. And I have talked to actual teachers. A lot of them. Stop listening to left-wing media designed to make you blind to the reality of the world. Stop throwing around the racist moniker if I find myself offended by these things. That's really ridiculous for you to make that kind of stereotypical charge against someone who is offended by any teachings of this nature. You don't have the first clue and I would advise you to get one with respect to what's going on. And no, I didn't get this from Fox News because I don't watch Fox News ever!

You must have kids in public school to be this indignant at another's assertion? Or did you "do your research"?

 

[Willence]

You must have kids in public school to be this indignant at another's assertion? Or did you "do your research"?

Wife taught public schools for 12 years. It doesn't take a lot of effort to understand. But go right ahead and do your usual spin that CRT is a university concept. I get it but that's playing semantics and what I am talking about happens.

We tried public schools. No thanks. I would never send my kids to public school. I want them to be successful and public schools are not arming kids for success.

 

[Willence]

One more thing I would say is what unifying or cooperative principle is espoused by calling people racist at every turn because of their political views and unwarranted extrapolation that goes on based on those views? I'm so tired of the ridiculousness of it all. CRT in its original form is not directly taught in schools. However, an abundance of CRT principles and beliefs have absolutely made their way into our schools. The response is to say that it's not CRT and it's a university concept that isn't taught. That's just way of distracting from the reality and trying to brand people at something they aren't. This kind of stuff has to stop.

Our national literacy rate is 88% which may sound great but it should be nearly 100%. Four of our most populous states have rates at or under 80%. And people who can read aren't reading to learn more about the world and about our nation. Understanding of our Constitution and the founding principles of our nation are subterranean. Even among many highly educated people on this board that is the case. We are putting our kids in silos and not encouraging them to spread their wings and learn about the world. There is so much wrong in all this. We can do so much better and it shouldn't be racist to want to see more fruits from the labor.

 

[yoshi121374]

One more thing I would say is what unifying or cooperative principle is espoused by calling people racist at every turn because of their political views and unwarranted extrapolation that goes on based on those views? I'm so tired of the ridiculousness of it all. CRT in its original form is not directly taught in schools. However, an abundance of CRT principles and beliefs have absolutely made their way into our schools. The response is to say that it's not CRT and it's a university concept that isn't taught. That's just way of distracting from the reality and trying to brand people at something they aren't. This kind of stuff has to stop.

Our national literacy rate is 88% which may sound great but it should be nearly 100%. Four of our most populous states have rates at or under 80%. And people who can read aren't reading to learn more about the world and about our nation. Understanding of our Constitution and the founding principles of our nation are subterranean. Even among many highly educated people on this board that is the case. We are putting our kids in silos and not encouraging them to spread their wings and learn about the world. There is so much wrong in all this. We can do so much better and it shouldn't be racist to want to see more fruits from the labor.

Just for factual sake, that literacy rate includes our Special Needs students who aren't capable of learning to read.

 

[Willence]

Just for factual sake, that literacy rate includes our Special Needs students who aren't capable of learning to read.

Can you document where they make up 10% of the population?

 

[yoshi121374]

Can you document where they make up 10% of the population?

Wasn't saying that, just pointing out that 100% isn't very realistic.