If you are a parent or grandparent, you need to look at these stats

[Toasted712]

I don’t disagree that the student loan forgiveness is a mere bandaid to the issue. But also, you talking about non college paths and investment there isn’t going to solve the main issue.

Almost everyone grows up wanting to go to college and have that life experience. It’s extremely valuable for the person to grow personally and socially too. That will still be there even with more trade schools etc.

The issue is that colleges shouldn’t be as expensive as they are. Not even close. It’s one of the more disgusting things we all kind of just accept today.

Completely agree.

My wife graduated with a micro biology degree. She worked for the city water company, a brewery, and a corporate/lab type job. She didn't like any of them. She bartends and loves it. She's extremely budget driven and had her student loans paid off by the time she was 30 being, predominately, a server and bartender. It is possible even with "lesser jobs" in people's eyes to still pay off college. She'd constantly would talk about how her coworkers were in so much debt from school but would go out and buy expensive things. School is still too expensive, no doubt, but the vast majority of society is terrible at managing money though which is probably the bigger issue.

 

[sregit18]

No he didn't. They work 1 gig job part time with no career opportunity or insurance.

You are correct, but working a gig job to earn extra money carries the implication that they earn money elsewhere. Otherwise they would not be earning "extra" money, they would simply be earning income.

 

[DClemsonTiger]

I don't really see a problem with the leisure time statistic (2), personally. Leisure time should be whatever a person enjoys doing. I think a more valuable statistic, particularly in view of statistic (1) about living at home, would be "what percentage of time is leisure time?"

If leisure time is a really big % of someone's time while they are also living at home on someone else's dime, it may suggest they need to be doing more to find a way to earn some income - applying to jobs, doing side gigs, etc.- but that's different than how they are using that leisure time, which matters much less.

I think the first statistic is much more concerning as a society. And I think it's a combination of a lot of factors, but we also shouldn't discount that automation and the resulting necessitated move toward services has made the number of "good paying jobs" much fewer in number than for prior generations. Now, there are a number of places we could create meaningful work for people that would represent a real investment in our society - teachers, social services, etc.- but people never seem to want to have that conversation.

 

[Buzzards Roost]

A good friend of mine who is the President of a small college called to wish the Tigers well against UNC (he really wants us to clobber them). He had been to a meeting and heard these startling statistics.
1) 47% of the male population in the US between 25 and 35 still live at home with their parents.
2) 75% of their leisure time is spent either watching tv or playing video games.
A great number of them work gig jobs to make extra money, but these jobs have no room to advance and offer no long term benefits.
I realize there are situations where moving back in with your parents short term makes sense,
but Mommy and Daddy need to boot the rest of these lazy freeloaders out.
No wonder the US is in such a mess.

That’s why college graduates are 60% female and the numbers are growing. A pediatrician friend told me that females aren’t into gaming at anywhere near the male level, less than 10%. And they are taught this is the reason for the achievement gap. And college isn’t the only measure. Also non college grad job success.
So the glass ceiling will shatter from within.
I feel fortunate I have always hated games. From board games to cards to video.

 

[TheValley91]

Completely agree.

My wife graduated with a micro biology degree. She worked for the city water company, a brewery, and a corporate/lab type job. She didn't like any of them. She bartends and loves it. She's extremely budget driven and had her student loans paid off by the time she was 30 being, predominately, a server and bartender. It is possible even with "lesser jobs" in people's eyes to still pay off college. She'd constantly would talk about how her coworkers were in so much debt from school but would go out and buy expensive things. School is still too expensive, no doubt, but the vast majority of society is terrible at managing money though which is probably the bigger issue.

Don't disagree with ya there on people living in the moment and not managing money properly. Just not sure that is near as fixable as the cost of college issue (which I know is EXTREMELY difficult to actually fix).

Sounds like a good woman btw.

 

[Toasted712]

Don't disagree with ya there on people living in the moment and not managing money properly. Just not sure that is near as fixable as the cost of college issue (which I know is EXTREMELY difficult to actually fix).

Sounds like a good woman btw.

True that the the cost of college is more fixable.

 

[yoseftiger]

An incredibly tired trope.

 

[mskoonce]

My son's best friend went to his parents after 2 years of college and told them he thought he was wasting their money because he had no idea what he could/would do with the degree he was earning. Is now in Tech school learning heating/AC and seems very happy. He enjoys what he is learning and knows there is a pretty good job waiting for him when he finishes up. His parents supported him and it seems to be working out so far. It doesnt work for everyone but it probably should be a path used more often.

 

[CUFam98]

Since housing typically appreciates everywhere not named Detroit, its always the "worst time to buy a starter home." Some times are just slightly "worser" than others but starter houses are always going to be more expensive for the subsequent buyers. Going by zillow, my decent, but not necessarily nice, 1st home in the Atlanta area has roughly doubled in value since we bought it in the 90s. But so have professional entry level salaries in that time as well. I couldn't have afforded my first house at its current price with my starting salary. But if I take the same salary that my organization is paying for a roughly similar job and similar experience the payment is almost the exact same percentage as it was in the late 90s.

The problem is, most of the dorms at Clemson and certainly all the new apartments are now nicer than my starter home. Their (and many of their parents) expectations are not tailored to reality.

 

[scotchtiger]

I don’t disagree that the student loan forgiveness is a mere bandaid to the issue. But also, you talking about non college paths and investment there isn’t going to solve the main issue.

Almost everyone grows up wanting to go to college and have that life experience. It’s extremely valuable for the person to grow personally and socially too. That will still be there even with more trade schools etc.

The issue is that colleges shouldn’t be as expensive as they are. Not even close. It’s one of the more disgusting things we all kind of just accept today.

I agree that college is too expensive. And the #1 contributing factor is easy access to government loans to pay for it. Loose monetary policy raises prices. It's a simple concept, and perhaps an unintended consequence of the student loan program, but one that should have been foreseen. Such is the case with many things that the government does.

To fix it, we need to fix the loan program. Underwrite student loans like anything else - based on likelihood of repayment. School quality, degree-specific job prospects, etc. Art history major at an expensive lib arts school will probably have a hard time making it through underwriting, as it should. Offer preferred loans (low-0% interest) to qualified people pursuing degrees in areas of high societal value (ex teachers). If the loose money begins to dry up, demand will decrease and prices will have to come down.

 

[Dungeon09]

Some of these house prices being thrown about in this thread are kinda misleading. A later 20s young adult doesn't need a house on Daniel Island or in a nice downtown urban area. Or heck even an upscale area anywhere. That's ridiculous. It's their first home.....

While overpriced, I can definitely agree with that, there are still options to buy a place to live that is affordable for the cost of living/salary in their respective areas everywhere in the country. Problem is that in today's culture every kid thinks they should be making 100K+ right out of college and move into a house as nice or nicer than their parents by the time they are 30. It's completely unrealistic. They don't believe in starter/affordable homes or working their way up to those nice homes.

How about this. In Aiken, 29803, there are currently 3 listings under $200k, the largest of those is 1100sq ft, and none of them are in neighborhoods that you’d want to live in.

 

[CUFam98]

I agree that college is too expensive. And the #1 contributing factor is easy access to government loans to pay for it. Loose monetary policy raises prices. It's a simple concept, and perhaps an unintended consequence of the student loan program, but one that should have been foreseen. Such is the case with many things that the government does.

To fix it, we need to fix the loan program. Underwrite student loans like anything else - based on likelihood of repayment. School quality, degree-specific job prospects, etc. Art history major at an expensive lib arts school will probably have a hard time making it through underwriting, as it should. Offer preferred loans (low-0% interest) to qualified people pursuing degrees in areas of high societal value (ex teachers). If the loose money begins to dry up, demand will decrease and prices will have to come down.

Just set a hard cap the amount of money the federal government programs will loan and make the recipients live within the budget. You can adjust for geographic influences on cost, but no unlimited loans. "Uncle Biden is going to give you a low interest loan up to 100k for your schooling. You can either find scholarships or other funding to cover the difference or you can go to USC Upstate instead of Wofford or going out of state."

Basically the same as Social Security. We are going to give you X, if you think you need more than X to live, provide it yourself.

 

[LaniKaiTiger]

I agree that college is too expensive. And the #1 contributing factor is easy access to government loans to pay for it. Loose monetary policy raises prices. It's a simple concept, and perhaps an unintended consequence of the student loan program, but one that should have been foreseen. Such is the case with many things that the government does.

To fix it, we need to fix the loan program. Underwrite student loans like anything else - based on likelihood of repayment. School quality, degree-specific job prospects, etc. Art history major at an expensive lib arts school will probably have a hard time making it through underwriting, as it should. Offer preferred loans (low-0% interest) to qualified people pursuing degrees in areas of high societal value (ex teachers). If the loose money begins to dry up, demand will decrease and prices will have to come down.

The salaries of university "administrators" and various other paper pushers are out of control. Too much money has gone into the college experience in my view as well: new dorms, new gyms, new student centers, dining, various student resources, etc.

The focus ought to be on providing a solid education at a reasonable cost, plain but not disgusting housing, nutritious but ordinary food, and a safe environment while letting kids act a fool to a controlled degree. Nothing more

 

[CUFam98]

How about this. In Aiken, 29803, there are currently 3 listings under $200k, the largest of those is 1100sq ft, and none of them are in neighborhoods that you’d want to live in.

You are taking the current prices and comparing them to what you started off. A 250k, 30 year fixed loan is about $1850-1900 including escrow right now.

That works out to be about $22k in mortgage a year.
Taking a very conservative approach that mortgage should be 25% of your income, thats roughly 88k household income. (Most first time buyers aren't at 25%. I know our first home was more like 40% of our income at first)
Now back track 25 years to when the parents of these first time home buyers were buying their first home using a moderate rate of 2% year over year salary inflation, it was a household income of about 55k.

Everything is mostly still in line with where it was a generation ago.

 

[scotchtiger]

The salaries of university "administrators" and various other paper pushers are out of control. Too much money has gone into the college experience in my view as well: new dorms, new gyms, new student centers, dining, various student resources, etc.

The focus ought to be on providing a solid education at a reasonable cost, plain but not disgusting housing, nutritious but ordinary food, and a safe environment while letting kids act a fool to a controlled degree. Nothing more

And where did that money come from? Easy access to student loans. It inflated everything about college, including the categories you referenced.

 

[LaniKaiTiger]

And where did that money come from? Easy access to student loans. It inflated everything about college, including the categories you referenced.

I don't disagree with you lol.

 

[CrouchingTiger72]

This subject has an endless subset of underlying issues.

 

[Dungeon09]

You are taking the current prices and comparing them to what you started off. A 250k, 30 year fixed loan is about $1850-1900 including escrow right now.

That works out to be about $22k in mortgage a year.
Taking a very conservative approach that mortgage should be 25% of your income, thats roughly 88k household income. (Most first time buyers aren't at 25%. I know our first home was more like 40% of our income at first)
Now back track 25 years to when the parents of these first time home buyers were buying their first home using a moderate rate of 2% year over year salary inflation, it was a household income of about 55k.

Everything is mostly still in line with where it was a generation ago.

SC Median Income:
1997: $34,282
2022: $57,444
% Change: 68%

SC Median Home Price
2000: $94,900
2022: $372,800
% Change: 293%

Median home prices in 1997-2000 were 2.7x the median salary. Now they’re 6.5x. That’s not mostly in line at all.

 

[LaniKaiTiger]

SC Median Income:
1997: $34,282
2022: $57,444
% Change: 68%

SC Median Home Price
2000: $94,900
2022: $372,800
% Change: 293%

Video games are clearly the issue

 

[Dungeon09]

Video games are clearly the issue

Those damned kids.

 

[TigerFlow]

Well they made a big mistake. They didn’t calculate the return on investment of a certain degree. They failed, their parents failed, their guidance counselor failed. All should be ashamed TBH.

I’m trying to imagine the conversation with my two boys. “Hey dad, I want to go to an expensive liberal arts school to get a degree with limited job prospects and earning potential. What do you think?”

I can’t imagine being such a horrible parent that I would allow it.

Wow. The schadenfreude. The small mindedness. So much of this post is pathetic. All the way down to the shaming of other parents who might do things differently than you.

As if everyone who goes to a liberal arts school ends up living at home on their parents couch with no job prospects.

You just described my wife and I, neither of whom ever lived at home after college. Both of whom have high salary jobs and successful careers. And we are far closer to the norm. Your description is far more the exception. And while I did have parental help with my tution, I paid for nearly half my Furman degree myself by working two summer jobs all through school and then a decade of student loans after graduating.

Open your mind a bit, buddy. More than one way to skin a cat.

 

[Clemblack]

50 years ago, a man with no college education could pretty easily get a good job that allowed him to support his family. This has become increasingly difficult to do, IMO. It is a problem.

 

[CUFam98]

SC Median Income:
1997: $34,282
2022: $57,444
% Change: 68%

SC Median Home Price
2000: $94,900
2022: $372,800
% Change: 293%

Median home prices in 1997-2000 were 2.7x the median salary. Now they’re 6.5x. That’s not mostly in line at all.

Median home price isn't a great measure of starter home. Those aren't appreciating nearly as fast. By definition they are less desirable homes and locations.

I would certainly agree that its harder to move up in home than it used to be. And its absolutely redonkulous what some of the middle and upper house prices are.

 

[southerncaltiger]

Completely agree.

My wife graduated with a micro biology degree. She worked for the city water company, a brewery, and a corporate/lab type job. She didn't like any of them. She bartends and loves it. She's extremely budget driven and had her student loans paid off by the time she was 30 being, predominately, a server and bartender. It is possible even with "lesser jobs" in people's eyes to still pay off college. She'd constantly would talk about how her coworkers were in so much debt from school but would go out and buy expensive things. School is still too expensive, no doubt, but the vast majority of society is terrible at managing money though which is probably the bigger issue.

Tip of the cap, to you my friend. That's a keeper. I've got one, too, but it took a second try for me. First one was a financial dingaling.

 

[CUFam98]

Video games are clearly the issue

I wish someone could explain to me how video games have stayed the same price. Super Nintendo games were around $50 and PS4 games are still around $50.

 

[LaniKaiTiger]

I wish someone could explain to me how video games have stayed the same price. Super Nintendo games were around $50 and PS4 games are still around $50.

Micro transaction model

 

[CUFam98]

Micro transaction model

I wish someone could explain it in language that I could understand how video games have stayed the same price. Super Nintendo games were around $50 and PS4 games are still around $50. 😂

 

[Toasted712]

Tip of the cap, to you my friend. That's a keeper. I've got one, too, but it took a second try for me. First one was a financial dingaling.

I offered to help pay them off quicker right around I knew I was going to propose and she refused.

For the life of me I can't understand how people marry someone that is financially irresponsible.

 

[LaniKaiTiger]

I wish someone could explain it in language that I could understand how video games have stayed the same price. Super Nintendo games were around $50 and PS4 games are still around $50. 😂

Video game companies aren’t making their bread off the $50 price for the disk. They get people to buy the game and then make their money off of the in-game content users buy for $1, $5, etc

 

[Toasted712]

I wish someone could explain it in language that I could understand how video games have stayed the same price. Super Nintendo games were around $50 and PS4 games are still around $50. 😂

Most games now have in game purchases for cosmetic things like new looks for your characters or something that gives you a slight (sometimes it's a major) advantage.

 

[Toasted712]

Video game companies aren’t making their bread off the $50 price for the disk. They get people to buy the game and then make their money off of the in-game content users buy for $1, $5, etc

@CUFam98 A couple of examples would be:

• Mobile games you can speed up/shorten timers that you'd otherwise have to wait for or get power ups or lives
• Madden or FIFA ultimate team (an online build your own team type mode) you can buy Madden/FIFA points that can be redeemed for packs of players. Better players = better chance to win.
• Lots of free games (MTG Arena, Fortnite) have "battle passes" that give you a variety of things like skins or points that can be redeemed in their online store.

Anyway, just about every game has something you can buy in game.

 

[CUFam98]

Most games now have in game purchases for cosmetic things like new looks for your characters or something that gives you a slight (sometimes it's a major) advantage.

I knew there was a reason my son was suddenly whipping me in PGA on PlayStation. I just texted him and that SOB got upgraded clubs. That bastard was outdriving me by 15 yards and he said it was because he was better. No wonder he always insisted on using his profile!!!



I'm late 40s and just texted him in school about video games. I hope I disrupted his lunch and not math class. Yeap, we can blame it all on video games!!!

 

[CUFam98]

@CUFam98 A couple of examples would be:

• Mobile games you can speed up/shorten timers that you'd otherwise have to wait for or get power ups or lives
• Madden or FIFA ultimate team (an online build your own team type mode) you can buy Madden/FIFA points that can be redeemed for packs of players. Better players = better chance to win.
• Lots of free games (MTG Arena, Fortnite) have "battle passes" that give you a variety of things like skins or points that can be redeemed in their online store.

Anyway, just about every game has something you can buy in game.

When EA Sports releases College Football, I'm buying all 5 stars!!! I'm going to dominate my kids.


I hope it comes out before they go off to college. It will be weird to tell them to be back in their dorm at 7 so I can whip them in online football.

 

[CUFam98]

50 years ago, a man with no college education could pretty easily get a good job that allowed him to support his family. This has become increasingly difficult to do, IMO. It is a problem.

I agree with this in general, but I also think it goes back to expectations.

50 years ago (heck 25 years ago) we didn't eat out nearly as often, didn't have flatscreens in every room with about 10 different streaming services, an iphone per person, infotainment system in basic cars, granite countertops, more household square footage than we'd ever need, travel sports, and a vacation every time school is on more than a 2 day break. Oh and also a storage unit for all the crap that can't fit in the house.

There aint nothing wrong with naugahyde and linoleum, especially in that first house/apartment.

 

[CUFam98]

Thought this was an interesting article for this thread. Its Census Bureau data, and goes back to expectations.

New US Homes Today Are 1,000 Square Feet Larger Than in 1973 and Living Space per Person Has Nearly Doubled​

3. New Housing Construction Costs. What about the cost of new houses over the last 42 years? On a per square foot basis using median house sales prices and median square footage, the inflation-adjusted price per square foot for new houses (in 2015 dollars) has been relatively stable since 1973 in a range between about $107 and $128 per square foot at an average of about $116 (see bottom chart above). The price of just more than $120 per square foot for new houses sold in 2015 was 8.5% below the peak of $131.29 (in 2015 dollars) per square foot for a new house in 2005.

 

[TheSweatshirt]

I agree with this in general, but I also think it goes back to expectations.

50 years ago (heck 25 years ago) we didn't eat out nearly as often, didn't have flatscreens in every room with about 10 different streaming services, an iphone per person, infotainment system in basic cars, granite countertops, more household square footage than we'd ever need, travel sports, and a vacation every time school is on more than a 2 day break. Oh and also a storage unit for all the crap that can't fit in the house.

There aint nothing wrong with naugahyde and linoleum, especially in that first house/apartment.

There is a lot of data now that supports renting as a better financial decision. Given the frequency with which people change jobs, and the salary bumps as a result, you make more money when you can be flexible. Not to mention paying for maintenance, insurance, taxes, and as a renter you can keep the down payment in the stock market where historically you get a better return.

IMO the only reason to buy is because you want the stability of living in an area where you raise kids. We’ve talked about buying a second home and I can’t make the math work on owning something that needs maintenance when I can take my pick of renting houses anywhere in the world and not have to do shit. And I get to keep that equity in my investments where it drastically outperforms.

Wait…. Wasn’t this a thread about damn kids?

 

[Dungeon09]

@CUFam98 A couple of examples would be:

• Mobile games you can speed up/shorten timers that you'd otherwise have to wait for or get power ups or lives
• Madden or FIFA ultimate team (an online build your own team type mode) you can buy Madden/FIFA points that can be redeemed for packs of players. Better players = better chance to win.
• Lots of free games (MTG Arena, Fortnite) have "battle passes" that give you a variety of things like skins or points that can be redeemed in their online store.

Anyway, just about every game has something you can buy in game.

Games now are also typically delivered electronically and you don’t physically own anything.

 

[GhostOfMatchesMalone]

And where did that money come from? Easy access to student loans. It inflated everything about college, including the categories you referenced.

Yeah but Hiden is gonna give everyone $10k toward their student loans.

Of course, the providers (who are owned by the government) will boost interest rates so that in reality, the students will end up paying MORE, not less.

Sheep applaud Hiden's move to help struggling students saddled with debt. SMDH

 

[chipp1027]

I agree with a lot of that. We have had a lot of opportunity with jobs since Covid, I agree. Most middle class friends I have were struggling to find a house that made sense for their family because these houses were being bought up left and right with cash buyers. Part of that is where I live(Appalachian Mountains - Boone area).

I’m not saying 25-35 year olds haven’t had opportunities, but to blindly say the reason they are still home is strictly laziness isn’t the whole issue or truth. It’s a lot more complex than that.

My younger brother(27) works his butt off and has a decent job. He’s on his own, but is supporting himself and his fiancé who is finishing up pharmacy school at Auburn. I’ve still had to send him some money through the past few years to help make ends meet. He’s highly productive in society, he works his butt off(50-60hrs a week), and lives on his own. I just feel he would be set up for success if he did what he’s doing now and I helped financially or if he stayed with our parents until his fiancé graduated and got a job that allowed her to contribute as well. It’s no secret that the cost of living is pretty insane right now and as a young adult trying to make ends meet is harder than most have ever had to deal with.

I don't think it has ever been "easy" for anyone to put a spouse or fiance through pharma/medical school on a solo income at age 27. I did it and it was never "easy". But he's doing it and sounds like the 2 of them will be set up for success very soon! If he's a hustler and willing to work those hours and his current job isn't paying what he needs I recommend he look around as there are so many career opportunities right now for someone that is willing to work.

 

[chipp1027]

I offered to help pay them off quicker right around I knew I was going to propose and she refused.

For the life of me I can't understand how people marry someone that is financially irresponsible.

It's undefeated