It is interesting to me. of course its tribalism and whatever your team is cheering for. the bar is low for what we expect of others i guess.
it is an irreconcilable contradiction.
Jalen Ramsey Tweet (Updated wit Dandre Hopkins)
- Thread starter Elul77
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NIH physician director blog post discussion study
How Immunity Generated from COVID-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection
A key issue as we move closer to ending the pandemic is determining more precisely how long people exposed to SARS-CoV-2, the COVID-19 virus, will make neutralizing antibodies against this dangerou…directorsblog.nih.gov
Abstract of study that is discussed in above link - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34103407/
Full text of study
Only this guys experts count guys.Here is a better one that shows that natural immunity is effective and lasting.
SARS-CoV-2 infection induces long-lived bone marrow plasma cells in humans - Nature
SARS-CoV-2 infection induces long-lived bone marrow plasma cells that correlate with anti-SARS-CoV-2 spike protein antibody titres in individuals who have recovered from COVID-19.
www.nature.com
The vaccines actually do prevent people from getting the virus, too. But no vaccine is 100% effective, so the rest of what you're saying still applies. This was why mask mandates weren't immediately lifted after vaccines became available, and why people like Fauci have noted that the US didn't need a mask mandate after a certain point of vaccination with highly effective vaccines, whereas other countries may need to consider using masks (as the WHO recommends).
The problem is that people will generally believe their lyin' eyes about anecdotal evidence more than they'll believe abstract evidence based on large numbers, even though the abstract evidence is more valid. Of course, people who dismiss the danger of COVID are on all sides of this, mostly because it's more important to them to not have a reason to be told what to do for public health purposes than to take expert advice about COVID into consideration. That's a genuine political problem, but public health interventionists sometimes don't acknowledge the burden of public health measures, while COVID-dismissive people aren't terribly interested in any evidence that doesn't confirm what they want to think.
It's reconcilable, but that's a story for another thread.
Ie. Everybody thinks personal choices about your body should be constrained in some way, except (the worst kind of) anarcho-libertarians. If you believe abortion is murdering a child, while vaccination is just about choosing to protect your own health or not, then you're going to see vaccination as more of a personal thing than the choice to kill a child. If you believe (unscientifically) that a "fetus" isn't a living human child, but that not getting vaccinated endangers others because you could spread disease, then you might think of abortion as more of a personal choice than vaccination.
In general, though, it's not good to be doctrinaire about specific issue- you need to be thinking about the specifics of a given problem, rather than trying to make the facts around that problem fit into your ideology. Personally, I think there's a more direct imperative not to kill innocent children than there is to more indirectly protect your community from the spread of disease. So, in my opinion, abortion should be outlawed, while vaccination should not be mandated across the board. However, in some circumstances, because vaccination affects the community, I think it's fine to require it for certain diseases and for participating in certain things.
In general, though, it's not good to be doctrinaire about specific issue- you need to be thinking about the specifics of a given problem, rather than trying to make the facts around that problem fit into your ideology. Personally, I think there's a more direct imperative not to kill innocent children than there is to more indirectly protect your community from the spread of disease. So, in my opinion, abortion should be outlawed, while vaccination should not be mandated across the board. However, in some circumstances, because vaccination affects the community, I think it's fine to require it for certain diseases and for participating in certain things.
That’s rich coming from the vaccine bully. Even when presented with data to the contrary you only believe your experts and hide behind well I will go with what the cdc recommends just because. Look at this guys post history guys he is a fraud. Funny how you never responded to LA county totally ignoring your precious cdc recommendations of the vaccinated not having to wear masks. 😂 I wonder why?
I only lurk because people like you add very little substance to respond to.
Will do bud. Thanks for the encouragement. Maybe one day my posts will reach your level of epic ness.
Keep believing what the media and government tell you.
it is reconcilable only if you are using a common definition of when a collection of cells becomes a "human." taking the predominate definition from the trend in state legislation restricting reproductive rights, a human is formed in 5 weeks or even at conception. that is the majority opinion of those that want to ban abortions. it is an extreme definition.
the vast majority of people on either side of the debate do not want to generally allow late term abortions. that is how the law has been.
the way you have reconciled it is to make a value judgment on the degree of the harm to a fellow human: "indirect" harm to the community vs "murdering a child."
is having an abortion at 5 weeks after conception a direct imperative to murder a child or is it the destruction of a group of cells? depends on your definition of human life.
if you take the extreme position that life begins at conception (or even at 5 weeks IMHO), then it is logical to infer that such a person also places the an extremely high value on sanctity of human life in general. if so, that person should struggle to make the value decision that indirect harm to other humans by not vaxxing and spreading the virus is ok. especially after 600k+ deaths from covid.
i prefer facebook for my facts. the lady down the street has a full blown lab in her garage and she's been running clinical trials since this thing started. something smells fishy
You can say this til you're blue in the face but folks that refuse the vaccine will NOT hear it. I agree w/ you FTR. I genuinely cannot understand people who are unable to comprehend this and therefore just keep yammering about knowing vaccinated people who test positive for Covid. DUHHH.
This is exactly my position. Vaccines are available on every street corner. If you want one, you can get it. If you don't, I couldn't care less, but open everything and burn all the masks!
That’s a great point but in these athletes point of view they have zero to little risk from Covid infection. Then you go to the mitigation of the thing. Everyone who wants the vaccine at this point can get it. If they infect a unvaccinated person of risk that is on the unvaccinated person not them. We know vaccinated people contract and spread Covid. This also can contribute to variants being formed.To a lesser degree sure but they still do and at what rates is unknown asymptomatic carriers and all. Should all people included the vaccinated go back to wearing masks because of the risk of infecting others? Maybe we should all put our masks back on. Or maybe we should just determine what risks we choose to take individually.
all of the risks and probabilities you reference are substantially reduced by being vaccinated. the likelihood of variants is significantly reduced, etc.
i am all about personal choice. i am also all about consequences for stupid choices.
They are reduced but they are not zero. Vaccinated can and do spread Covid and with that have the potential to kill and produce variants even if it’s to a lesser degree.
Lol. Vaccine, especially the new mRNA vaccines will expose you to exponentially more spike proteins than natural exposure will, thus resulting in a much stronger immune response. To get the same amount of exposure by natural exposure you’d basically have to be mainlining covid saline. Plus with natural exposure you run the risk of falling extremely ill and death. With a vaccine the risk is incredibly less.
Yeah the flu vaccine causes Guillan Barre in 1 in a million, but the flu itself kills way more than that. I’ll take my chances.
I have no qualms with people who are initially skeptical of something new, especially in medicine. But it has proven to be safe and now the vaccine skeptics just refuse to admit that they’re fine so instead of adjusting their opinion when presented with new information, they are doubling down and trying their best to bring the rest of society down with them.
of course they are not zero. very few choices in the situation or any health choice are zero. taking Tylenol is not zero risk.
right now over 99% of covid deaths are unvaccinated people, but not 100%. however, that is pretty compelling reason to get vaccinated. not getting vaccinated because it aint 100% would be pretty ****ing stupid.
in fact, you actually said the risk to young athletes is zero to near near zero. Anecdotally, we can apply that to Clemson last year and we had X Thomas and J. Foster , our two preseason starters at DE, out almost all year from covid. they each also had serious medical conditions for a long time. seems like a pretty big consequence/risk to the individual and their community, and they were young athletes with "zero to little risk."
If each variant is produced at a lesser degree eventually they will be so weak that it won't matter. But that is only if a majority of the population continues to vaccinate to weaken the strain. Doing nothing does nothing but prolong the life of the virus. That is the essential argument. Granted most people that decide not to vaccinate do so thinking that only 1-2% of the population will die from this disease. It is true that the mortality rate is low, however the burden to eradicate the virus is prolonged and becomes more costly over time. Cost of treatment, cost of loss wages due to inability to work, loss of life. You really have to ask yourself at what cost are you comfortable? Me personally, the vaccine was less intrusive than the possibility of me being hospitalized or possibly losing my life. Plus I just don't have the time to get sick.
We’re kind of arguing semantics here. “Getting the virus” is a relative term. Our bodies come in contact with viruses and bacteria every day and it’s up to our immune system to fight them off. As you know, the COVID-19 vaccines available just train our immune systems on what to do if/when they come in contact with it.
Most people that are anti vax probably don’t have jobs so it doesn’t matter if they get sick. I know this to be fact as 2 of my cousins don’t work and they got covid and said they had mild cases. It’s nothing to worry about
Sure, but I think some people are trying to say that the vaccines don't make it less likely that you'll be infected with the virus. They do, though. But they're not 100% effective in that regard. If you're saying that you can't be 100% sure you won't get the virus if you're vaccinated, you're obviously right.
To add to that, dying isn't the only bad outcome of getting the virus. Having a moderate or severe case is much more common, even for younger people. And, because it's so contagious, even fatality rates or severe illness rates that seem low translate to a large number of people dying or being very ill.
Oh so we are going to use anecdotal evidence now? 😂 We both know what the data says about the risk for people their age right? Again if their risk is low and they can’t predict wether they will pass on infection one way or another it’s possible there in lies why they are hesitant.
This is an argument for another time, but suffice to say that I don't think either issue can be boiled down to personal choice. Both depend on biological realities that we can't choose to ignore, and that we can't change by willfulness. This seems like the most conservative point of view, but not necessarily a classically liberal one, or any kind of liberal one.
Also, biologically speaking, we now know that human life begins at conception. But there's and ethical and a political question that still has to be answered: do we have the same responsibilities to that life as we have to adults? Does an adult's desire to not have a child, once already pregnant with a child, supersede the responsibility we have to protect the unborn child's life? And then, what rights should unborn lives have, and how should they be weighed against whatever reproductive rights of adults we recognize?
Even if a person comes down on the political side of recognizing the right to life of the unborn because they place a high value on innocent life, they might also see being indirectly responsible for the spread of disease (with disease being another layer in between their action and something that "just happens") as not being equal to being directly responsible for killing somoene.
Even if a person comes down on the political side of recognizing the right to life of the unborn because they place a high value on innocent life, they might also see being indirectly responsible for the spread of disease (with disease being another layer in between their action and something that "just happens") as not being equal to being directly responsible for killing somoene.
good points. its complicated and messy like a lot of issues.
Pretty sure I said it makes it less likely. Still not 100% Still doesn’t change the numbers for mortality rates your very own cdc have posted for athletes their age. Don’t worry though you will soon be able to take a booster to protect yourself from all your variants so you don’t have to clutch the pearls for the rest of your life. If you were really going to do your part though you would mask back up and mitigate your low but still a risk to others.
the anecdotal reference was because most vax hesitant or ant-vaxxers rely on anecdotal evidence to not vax over the consensus of objective science. just speaking in terms such folks understand.
i am pretty comfortable with the overwhelming medical evidence supporting the efficacy of getting vaccinated verses not vaccinated. as a result, I think folks who don't are being idiots.
Well that’s your opinion. I choose not to get it mainly because I have had Covid and see no need to get it. I agree those who are at high risk should get it. If they chose not to it’s their personal risk to take. Do you still wear a mask? If the answer is no do you feel comfortable with possibly infecting others? Or is that a risk you are willing to take?
77 participants, not randomized, investigators not blinded. Not only that, but the study discussion states multiple times that in natural immunity the antibody counts declined significantly at 4+ months. Yeah they’re still present, but they decline significantly. How do you get them back up? You can either be vaccinated and get a booster or you can get covid again and come into contact with a variant that your body doesn’t recognize because it is specifically trained to fight the one strain you encountered 6 months ago. That’s another benefit to mRNA vaccines, they are focused solely on the spike proteins. Those don’t mutate as often.Only this guys experts count guys.Here is a better one that shows that natural immunity is effective and lasting.
SARS-CoV-2 infection induces long-lived bone marrow plasma cells in humans - Nature
SARS-CoV-2 infection induces long-lived bone marrow plasma cells that correlate with anti-SARS-CoV-2 spike protein antibody titres in individuals who have recovered from COVID-19.
Why are you trying to read things you don’t understand. Ok let’s begin sure serum antibodies decreased in some but not all people in the study some even showed a increase. Forgot to add that detail huh. None of that is important though.More importantly it was found that in most people in the study a long-lived bone marrow plasma cells were detected which are key to fighting off covid19 and providing long term immunity. Forgot to add that little detail huh. Now to your spike protein comment. If you like I can link an article for you to better understand how variants are formed because you simply don’t have a clue. The spike protein mutation is exactly what is causing the variants. Not sure what you mean by they don’t mutate.
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