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Keep this in Mind when watching the news spin today

Rychek4 said:
The letter just asks them not to impede the Mueller investigation, no?
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Well, what was the Mueller investigation? Especially, what was the Mueller investigation as it pertains to the Ukraine? How was the Ukraine pulled into the Mueller investigation in the first place? If you haven't already figured it out, it will all come out in due time.
Also, the Dem Senators insinuate withholding support for Ukraine in the future if the Ukraine doesn't comply.
 
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orangelvis said:
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...kraine-in-may-demanding-it-investigate-trump/

Here is the actual letter.

https://www.foreign.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/5-4-18 Menendez joint letter to General Prosecutor of Ukraine on Mueller investigation.pdf

So, are the dems going to impeach themselves?
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The Dems are going after Trump for something that all politicians do... that’s why they are all rich when they leave office. I’m under the impression both sides typically look away because they both are guilty of corruption. The Dems have done a lot of positive over the last 3 years. They are breaking norms that hopefully will result in numerous politicians on both sides getting busted.

If it makes you feel better I think an impeachment inquiry helps Trump for 2020. Somehow the Dems have decided to quadruple down on the same crap that got Trump elected lol.
 
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orangelvis said:
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...kraine-in-may-demanding-it-investigate-trump/

Here is the actual letter.

https://www.foreign.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/5-4-18 Menendez joint letter to General Prosecutor of Ukraine on Mueller investigation.pdf

So, are the dems going to impeach themselves?
Click to expand...

Are you trying to be gullible? Can you not see this as trying to create false equivalency? The letter asks three things--they are labeled 1, 2 and *shocking* 3. None of those are inappropriate or intimidating or illegal or unethical. They don't imply withholding funding. The letter is trying to find out if the Trump Admin was trying to illegally impede the Mueller investigation.

Stop.

We have the memo (it is not a transcript). Even with the memo the president violated the constitution. You can't argue with that anymore. You can't. It was the second article of impeachment for Nixon.

What we did learn from the memo is that it is worse than expected. Trump was not just using Rudi G but the ATTORNEY GENERAL. If you care about the rule of law (or understand what it actually is) then you understand why this is a dark day for this country and law and order under an authoritarian presidency.

But I am sure you and your unpatriotic, hyper partisan conspiracy theorists will come up with something to justify your behavior (this is a pretty sad, pathetic attempt).

The reality is there is no line Trump could cross for you people because you don't really believe in the constitution or the framers. You believe in your own party politics over state.

Sad, indeed.
 
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clemben said:
Are you trying to be gullible? Can you not see this as trying to create false equivalency? The letter asks three things--they are labeled 1, 2 and *shocking* 3. None of those are inappropriate or intimidating or illegal or unethical. They don't imply withholding funding. The letter is trying to find out if the Trump Admin was trying to illegally impede the Mueller investigation.

Stop.

We have the memo (it is not a transcript). Even with the memo the president violated the constitution. You can't argue with that anymore. You can't. It was the second article of impeachment for Nixon.

What we did learn from the memo is that it is worse than expected. Trump was not just using Rudi G but the ATTORNEY GENERAL. If you care about the rule of law (or understand what it actually is) then you understand why this is a dark day for this country and law and order under an authoritarian presidency.

But I am sure you and your unpatriotic, hyper partisan conspiracy theorists will come up with something to justify your behavior (this is a pretty sad, pathetic attempt).

The reality is there is no line Trump could cross for you people because you don't really believe in the constitution or the framers. You believe in your own party politics over state.

Sad, indeed.
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UNBELIEVABLE....some of you guys are sooooo far gone....there are literally no words...and I'm the one that's hyper-partisan?

One thing you're right about. There is an attempt to create a false equivalency, but it's 180 degrees away from you think. And, just like all of the hyper-partisan, crazed Trump haters, the Rule of Law is only mentioned in reference to Trump, but, but bit..."no one is above the law".
Please tell us where Trump violated the Constitution. You made the assertion.
 
Rychek4 said:
Manafort most likely.
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...and how did that come about? Did the Ukraine just happen to offer up some info?
Were the Ukrainian leadership asked/coerced by any administration operatives to produce/investigate these things? Do you know why Trump mentions the US ambassador to the new Ukraine President? I doubt it, because you only follow the fake news that has lied to you for over 3 years and refuses to report anything negative regarding the deep state/swamp.
....Has any of Mike Pence's children been placed as Board members of any foreign countries? Have said children been also paid millions as consultants while serving on those boards? Has the NYT tipped off Pence that investigators in those foreign countries are investigating his child and the company he/she sits on Board of? Has Pence traveled to any such country and extorted them to fire such a prosecutor by withholding $1B in foreign aid?
I haven't seen any such evidence that Pence and family members have done any such thing. Have you? If he did, would it be important? Is anyone above the law?
 
Rychek4 said:
Yes.
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No. Not in the least. For 2.5 years, I've been saying that Russian collusion was fake news. I was called partisan, guilty of confirmation bias, etc. and more. Well, who was right? Which side was duped by their information sources>
 
orangelvis said:
No. Not in the least. For 2.5 years, I've been saying that Russian collusion was fake news. I was called partisan, guilty of confirmation bias, etc. and more. Well, who was right? Which side was duped by their information sources>
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That's not what makes you or absolves you from being hyper-partisan.
 
orangelvis said:
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...kraine-in-may-demanding-it-investigate-trump/

Here is the actual letter.

https://www.foreign.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/5-4-18 Menendez joint letter to General Prosecutor of Ukraine on Mueller investigation.pdf

So, are the dems going to impeach themselves?
Click to expand...

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I only skimmed these and won't even bother with the usual position on breitbart being a questionable source.

I actually agree with this. IF the Dems used a foreign government to investigate and find dirt on Trump, then people need to go to jail. Period. That's a crime.

My question is this. IF Trump did the same thing, @orangelvis, would you be in favor of him going to jail? Will you stop supporting him b/c he's a criminal? I suspect not. Trumpians believe that Trump is above the law.
 
hopefultiger13 said:
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I only skimmed these and won't even bother with the usual position on breitbart being a questionable source.

I actually agree with this. IF the Dems used a foreign government to investigate and find dirt on Trump, then people need to go to jail. Period. That's a crime.

My question is this. IF Trump did the same thing, @orangelvis, would you be in favor of him going to jail? Will you stop supporting him b/c he's a criminal? I suspect not. Trumpians believe that Trump is above the law.
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Well, Trump would actually have to use a foreign gov't first, wouldn't he? Do you think from you see in the transcripts that this is even remotely true? It's not partisan to have to be shown real evidence and intent of a crime, in order to believe a crime a crime was committed. It is, however, highly partisan to believe someone is guilty of something without having facts to back it up.
 
Rychek4 said:
That's not what makes you or absolves you from being hyper-partisan.
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So, if I have been right, because I never saw any real facts about Russian collusion regarding Trump, but my detractors on this board were telling me Trump was guilty of something they had no supporting facts to support, who would be guilty of hyper-partisanship?
 
orangelvis said:
So, if I have been right, because I never saw any real facts about Russian collusion regarding Trump, but my detractors on this board were telling me Trump was guilty of something they had no supporting facts to support, who would be guilty of hyper-partisanship?
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If that was the only thing we had talked about, and we had done it in an honest way, you would be correct that it would be incorrect to label you hyper-partisan. That would not be representative of the discussions we have had here.
 
Rychek4 said:
My understanding is it came about from tracing back bank records.
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Who asked for the Ukranian investigation into Manafort ? IS there any evidence that administration operatives were pressuring the Ukraine for that and any other dirt on Trump? And, that it occurred long before Mueller was even appointed? I'm stating that it did happen that way, and this will come out. No, I'm not going back and digging up references. It's all available online. It's easier to find if you use DuckDuckGo or any other search than Google. Google has their own issues that will be dealt with soon, as well.
 
orangelvis said:
Well, Trump would actually have to use a foreign gov't first, wouldn't he? Do you think from you see in the transcripts that this is even remotely true? It's not partisan to have to be shown real evidence and intent of a crime, in order to believe a crime a crime was committed. It is, however, highly partisan to believe someone is guilty of something without having facts to back it up.
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So the answer is no. Corruption is a partisan issue for you. Remind me how you’re different than the Dems again.
 
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Rychek4 said:
If that was the only thing we had talked about, and we had done it in an honest way, you would be correct that it would be incorrect to label you hyper-partisan. That would not be representative of the discussions we have had here.
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Well, enlighten me then. I'm listening.
 
Casa_del_Tigre said:
So the answer is no. Corruption is a partisan issue for you. Remind me how you’re different than the Dems again.
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The answer to what, is no. Corruption is corruption, period. No one has shown me any sign of corruption in the Trump admin, at least not yet. I've seen an entire collaboration of dems, some repubs, deep state bureaucrats, etc that have tried to turn the country that I love into a third world banana republic; through corruption.
 
orangelvis said:
The answer to what, is no. Corruption is corruption, period. No one has shown me any sign of corruption in the Trump admin, at least not yet. I've seen an entire collaboration of dems, some repubs, deep state bureaucrats, etc that have tried to turn the country that I love into a third world banana republic; through corruption.
Click to expand...

My question was hypothetical. IF Trump did what he's being accused of would you support him being impeached and going to jail? Would you stop supporting him? It's a simple question.
 
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orangelvis said:
The answer to what, is no. Corruption is corruption, period. No one has shown me any sign of corruption in the Trump admin, at least not yet. I've seen an entire collaboration of dems, some repubs, deep state bureaucrats, etc that have tried to turn the country that I love into a third world banana republic; through corruption.
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The transcript shows him trying to bring his personal lawyer into the Ukraine situation and also mentions that his personal lawyer has been in communication with them about Biden.....

So how is a personal lawyer being involved in foreign affairs not corruption again?

I’m not on here saying if it’s strong enough to impeach, you’re the one blindly saying there is nothing there when obviously that’s not true. I’m not convinced his conversation is much different than other presidents conversations, but that isn’t relevant to if he didn’t something corrupt. You still can’t admit the conversation was questionable or raises an alarm.

I’m sure you think U of SC runs a rogue program when a player test positive for pot, and forgive it when clemson players fail.
 
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Rychek4 said:
Neither side wants to ruin America. When I see you talk about how certain democrats are trying to ruin America, that's when I know you are Hyper-Partisan.
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Occam's Razor:
There are now reams of evidence as to how the Russian Collusion hoax began. The IG is soon to release his findings on the FISA abuse portion of the hoax. The IG just recently referred Comey for criminal activity for crimes committed while being the FBI DIRECTOR. McCabe is now facing a GRAND JURY inquiry. I'm quite sure that the Obama administration; from top to bottom was aware of everything going on; pertaining to illegally obtained COUNTER INTELLIGENCE investigations of a political opponent. This is the closest we've ever been as a country to total devastation of the rule of law and the demise of the Constitutional Republic. Yes, it does mainly involve dems, but there are repubs that are involved also. I am not basing my assertions solely on the basis of party affiliation.
 
Casa_del_Tigre said:
The transcript shows him trying to bring his personal lawyer into the Ukraine situation and also mentions that his personal lawyer has been in communication with them about Biden.....

So how is a personal lawyer being involved in foreign affairs not corruption again?

I’m not on here saying if it’s strong enough to impeach, you’re the one blindly saying there is nothing there when obviously that’s not true. I’m not convinced his conversation is much different than other presidents conversations, but that isn’t relevant to if he didn’t something corrupt. You still can’t admit the conversation was questionable or raises an alarm.

I’m sure you think U of SC runs a rogue program when a player test positive for pot, and forgive it when clemson players fail.
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This is a great post!

I think the evidence we've seen so far is questionable as well... which mean I don't support impeachment either (Surprise!)

The only thing I don't agree with is your thinking that the conversation that other President's have similar conversations. I can totally see a conversation where the President says "hey, we give you a LOT of military aid, we need you to support our UN resolution. If you don't, we are going to pull some or all of our aid". While this seems similar to what Trump did, it's really not. Pressuring another government to act in US interests is par for the course. That has to be done and I generally think that Trump does a good job of that.

But in this case, Trump DID NOT pressure a government to act in the interest of the US, he pressured them to act in the interest of TRUMP. BIG DIFFERENCE. A sitting President encourages a foreign government to politically injure a US citizen. That not what the Executive branch is supposed to be doing. Just like they aren't supposed to hawk personal hotels and their daughter's clothing lines.
 
orangelvis said:
Occam's Razor:
There are now reams of evidence as to how the Russian Collusion hoax began. The IG is soon to release his findings on the FISA abuse portion of the hoax. The IG just recently referred Comey for criminal activity for crimes committed while being the FBI DIRECTOR. McCabe is now facing a GRAND JURY inquiry. I'm quite sure that the Obama administration; from top to bottom was aware of everything going on; pertaining to illegally obtained COUNTER INTELLIGENCE investigations of a political opponent. This is the closest we've ever been as a country to total devastation of the rule of law and the demise of the Constitutional Republic. Yes, it does mainly involve dems, but there are repubs that are involved also. I am not basing my assertions solely on the basis of party affiliation.
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I'm not sure you are using Occam's Razor correctly, nor do I understand how this is a response to what I wrote.
 
Rychek4 said:
What is the motivation then?
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Regain the power inherent with the deep state. They never thought Hillary would or could lose the election, until it was too late. They are trying to circumvent Trump's presidency. Some have talked about impeachment, literally since day one. They thought they could pressure him to resign. They are desperate to hide everything that Trump is going to expose about the deep state and how it has operated for quite a while. I think there are probably good people within the bureaucracy that have been compromised over the years by money, illicit sex, etc. that are given a choice. Play or get exposed. Look at the people J. Epstein has associated with over the years. I think he was the point man. The man with the evidence that held people in check. The Intelligence community, many in the media conglomerates, etc are involved also.
Trump has never been a choir boy. I wouldn't want him as my pastor, but neither would I want my pastor to be president. Trump was a big playboy and skirt chaser. He admits that, but Trump is also rich enough that he knows a lot about how the political game has been played during his lifetime. I believe he wants to truly drain DC of the swamp creatures and return the country to the people. For the record, there are only a handful of people in either house of Congress combined, that I trust to always do the right thing.
I know you like links, etc, but it's way to much to try and accomplish here. There are a lot of you guys that I'd love to sit down with and have a few beers/drinks and talk about these things. I'm really very engaging and pleasant...lol
 
Now we have multiple conversations from the president. We have one or two from Mike Pence.

ALL OF THEM PERFECT.

I am with Ben Sasse who has read the whistleblower complaint.

There should be an impeachment inquiry--not impeachment but an inquiry. All the evidence should come out including the AG's role, if any, and possible attempt to obfuscate or cover-up for the president.

I love @orangelvis how you won't go on the record. In this scenario with Ukraine (and don't deflect to someone who isn't the president bc I for one could care less about anyone with a last name of Biden) what would it take for you to support impeaching the president?

Can you come up with anything? If you can't--isn't that telling for someone who claims to follow the rule of law...
 
clemben said:
Now we have multiple conversations from the president. We have one or two from Mike Pence.

ALL OF THEM PERFECT.

I am with Ben Sasse who has read the whistleblower complaint.

There should be an impeachment inquiry--not impeachment but an inquiry. All the evidence should come out including the AG's role, if any, and possible attempt to obfuscate or cover-up for the president.

I love @orangelvis how you won't go on the record. In this scenario with Ukraine (and don't deflect to someone who isn't the president bc I for one could care less about anyone with a last name of Biden) what would it take for you to support impeaching the president?

Can you come up with anything? If you can't--isn't that telling for someone who claims to follow the rule of law...
Click to expand...
Prepare for some deepstate nonsense, 4 or 5 hypothetical questions and some rambling about "just you wait, it's about to happen"
 
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Biden bragged on tape about doing far worse that Trump is even accused of. That’s why he has been very tempered in his responses. Let’s see what his conversations with the Ukraine looked like, or Obama’s with Iran. It’s going to get interesting. All Trump asked for was cooperation in investigating serious accusations with lots of sample, from Biden’s mouth no less. How else was he supposed to investigate? He needs their cooperation. No crime to see, just more of the same from Democrats.
 
Dbatz said:
Biden bragged on tape about doing far worse that Trump is even accused of. That’s why he has been very tempered in his responses. Let’s see what his conversations with the Ukraine looked like, or Obama’s with Iran. It’s going to get interesting. All Trump asked for was cooperation in investigating serious accusations with lots of sample, from Biden’s mouth no less. How else was he supposed to investigate? He needs their cooperation. No crime to see, just more of the same from Democrats.
Click to expand...

Just a quick question, do you guys actually believe this or do you just still hate Obama?

I do love that you gravitate to this kind of conspiracy theory but are willfully blind when Rudy and trump just tell you about the corruption.

Neither Obama or Biden are president. Neither sought dirt on a political opponent from Iran or the Ukraine. If they broke a law then the FBI should investigate.

None of that has anything to do with trump and an impeachment inquiry.
 
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clemben said:
Now we have multiple conversations from the president. We have one or two from Mike Pence.

ALL OF THEM PERFECT.

I am with Ben Sasse who has read the whistleblower complaint.

There should be an impeachment inquiry--not impeachment but an inquiry. All the evidence should come out including the AG's role, if any, and possible attempt to obfuscate or cover-up for the president.

I love @orangelvis how you won't go on the record. In this scenario with Ukraine (and don't deflect to someone who isn't the president bc I for one could care less about anyone with a last name of Biden) what would it take for you to support impeaching the president?

How about a crime! You can't go "on the record" and point to anything...anything at all, that is criminal in any way; pertaining to that phone call.
I'll be as nice as I can here. Your head is so far up the ass of fake news media and the rest of the corrupt democrat party that you really don't know sh!t from shinola.
Don't get me wrong, I've been hoping for the dems to impeach. The real question is what will it take for the DEMS to impeach the president.
Also, in case you don't know, and you don't, this person that the fake news and you are calling a "whistle blower", isn't even a whistle blower. This person doesn't have first hand knowledge of anything. They will be testifying to to second hand information given to them by someone who has not been identified. Since you seem to interested in the "rule of law", why don't you take a moment and look at the whistle blower statutes to see what constitutes a whistle blower.
Yes, I'm sure you don't want to hear anything about the Bidens. Too bad. You see any of this perpetual impeachment inquiry that you're so proud of, will have to include the Bidens. Why? Because they were mentioned in the phone call and the "intent" of Trump in mentioning them will have to come to light. You see, the Bidens are crooks.
I'm going to bet that you don't have the balls to watch Hannity's show tomorrow night. He just had a real investigative reporter on his show tonight, Jon Soloman of The Hill. Solomon is going to produce real documents; from the Ukraine Gov't, from Hunter Biden's attorneys, and from The State Department on Hannity's show tomorrow night, that will irrefutably prove that Hunter and Joe are criminals. So, do you believe in the rule of law? Do you you believe that no one is above the law? If so, be sure to tune in.
Oh, before I forget. Please put me on record as saying that this phone call bs is just another horse shit attempt by the dems to undo the 2016 election and it is going to blow up in their faces worse than the bull shit Russia Collusion, Mueller Report, Mueller testimony, and any other concoction they have attempted. Also, put me on record as saying that Trump will be re-elected by a bigger electoral margin than in 2016 and the Repubs will win back the House and increase their dominance of the Senate in 2020. Anything else you think I should go on record, for or against?


Can you come up with anything? If you can't--isn't that telling for someone who claims to follow the rule of law...
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