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Minneapolis shooting worst I've seen

Buzzards Roost

Woodrush
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Dec 1, 2002
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but to compound it the officer did no cpr and the passenger calmly filmed instead of cpr. I can see how she might be afraid since the cop still stood there with the gun while the guy was in extremis. But what about some medical care? Scoop and run to the ER and blood might have saved this guy. He was alive a while.
 
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I'm not sure why creating another thread was necessary but here goes...

For people who've questioned the girlfriend's actions, maybe you can say she was more concerned about livestreaming that him but there's no way to tell what kind of shock someone would be in after something like that plus with all of the other situations that have gone down, her instinct might have been to get as much evidence as possible or it would've just been "he reached for his gun so I shot him" and case closed. Seems she also might've thought he was just shot in the arm and would be okay, it wasn't for a little while that her reaction changed. She also just witnessed her boyfriend get shot for no good reason and possibly didn't want to put herself in a position where the cop could've reacted to her movements even if it's what he instructed her to do. And...she's not the one who's supposed to be experienced in these situations and how to properly treat a shooting victim.

The cop didn't seem to have much regard for the guy's life after shooting him a few times and instead just stood there continually pointing the gun at him. He should've been able to recognize that the victim was not a threat at that point as he's struggling to breathe.
 
I saw a post on facebook that explained one of the problems that is all too familiar in the police ranks (it's long but worth it):

"A long rant full of advice for my cop friends....

OK, after seeing Facebook and the media going crazy all day about the two most recent police-involved shootings, I have a little bit of advice for my police friends. For what it's worth, I've been a cop for 21 years and a police trainer since 1997. I have more than 75 instructor certifications in police subject areas and 4,000 hours of documented training, mostly in police use of force subjects. I spent 13 years of my career doing nothing but teaching use of force to cops as a full time job. I might know a little more than the talking head you are seeing on TV.

My cop readers need to focus on two issues:

1) Ensuring the validity of the initial transaction- The first thing that comes up in any police shooting investigation or any lawsuit filed against the cops is "Why did the cops contact the person they shot." If the reason for the contact is bogus, then everything that transpires later is viewed with suspicion.

The media works this angle to the cop's detriment. They blame the shooting on the reason for the stop, not what the suspect did afterwards. Right now we are hearing every media outlet talk about the man in Minnesota who was shot "for having a broken tail light." That's not why he was shot, but it doesn't matter in the court of public opinion.

Your contact with any citizen in an enforcement capacity needs to be rock-solid. Not only rock-solid in a legal sense, but rock-solid in the court of public opinion.

Look at the Minnesota shooting. The reason for contact (broken tail light) is valid legally, but what does the public think about cops pulling people over for bullshit like that? They don't like it. Following the logic, they will like it even less when someone gets shot as a result of a bullshit stop.

I know what the cop was doing, he was likely hunting for criminals with warrants. I see it pretty regularly. Cops pull over crappy cars for equipment violations, hunting for an arrest. Poor people who can't afford to fix busted tail lights often can't afford to pay their tickets, their child support, or their court fees. Their driver's licenses are often suspended and they regularly have warrants. Sometimes their passengers are in the same situation.

So, aggressive cop looking to arrest "bad guys" pulls over a beater car and runs everyone inside for warrants. About 1/4 of the time he gets lucky and gets an arrest. Every once in awhile, bad shit happens and the cop ends up in the national media spotlight.

STOP HASSLING PEOPLE! The fact that some dude has a suspended license or hasn't paid a speeding ticket is not negatively affecting the safety of the community you patrol. I know you want to do good things and make lots of arrests, but every stop you make has the potential to go REALLY bad. Don't stop people for bogus violations. Don't hunt minor scofflaws. The public doesn't respect you for doing so and occasionally you will get thrown under the bus when you screw something up, or your stop ends up in a shooting that you didn't intend.

Put yourself in the position of the Minnesota officer. Would you have made that traffic stop if you had known it would turn out like it did? My guess is the answer is "no". Think about that the next time you feel like making a stop for a cracked windshield or some other inconsequential violation.

2) You need more and better training. I don't know a single department in the country that gives its officers all the training they need. Initial recruit training in most states is abysmal. In Ohio, barbers get three times more training than cops get before being licensed. In-service training is even worse. I know some departments that provide NO in service training other than watching a couple videos a year.

If you are scared of legally armed citizens with CCW permits and you freak out because someone has a gun, you simply aren't confident in your own abilities. That's a huge problem. When you aren't skilled and confident, you get scared and you over react. Freaked out cops don't make good decisions. When cops don't make good decisions, they end up on the national news.

Your department won't give you the training you need. You have two options. You can seek out the training on your own or you can hope you never get into a bad spot where your lack of skills gets you killed or put in jail.

There has never been a greater variety of top notch weapons and martial arts training available for cops and private citizens. You need to start taking classes. You will be amazed at what you don't know. I was already a state-certified police firearms instructor before I took my first professional shooting class. I learned more in that first day of professional gun training than I did in the two-week police "instructor" school.

If you haven't done any training outside the academy or your agency's in-service classes, quite honestly your skills are likely to be subpar. You don't know what you are doing. You are prone to being killed or doing something stupid that will get you fired or jailed.

Even though I've been teaching gun skills professionally for almost my entire career, I still take other folks' training to keep my skills sharp. This year, I will take two weekend-long professional shooting classes and at least one three-day seminar that focuses on other issues like knife fighting, legal updates, empty hand skills and the like. And I pay for those classes (and travel costs and ammo) out of my own pocket. I shoot my guns at least weekly and pay for 5,000-10,000 rounds of practice ammo out of my own pocket every year. If you aren't doing something similar, you are not ready to fight real bad guys on the street. And you know what? Dealing with a person who has a gun doesn't freak me out. I know I'm better than he is.

The same is true with police defensive tactics training. If your only training is from the academy, you don't know how to fight. You owe it to yourself to get at least a year or two of quality training (at least 2x a week) at an outside martial arts studio that focuses on a realistic fighting art. And it better be a fighting art where you regularly train against other people who are trying to punch, kick, or choke you. Doing fancy katas in your dojo's mirror isn't adequate. Look at wrestling, Judo, Jujitsu, boxing, Muay Thai, MMA, or Krav Maga.

It doesn't have to be a lifetime passion. You just need to do the work necessary to beat most criminals. You'll be amazed at how differently you look at situations on the street when you know how to fight. Your confidence will be a game changer and the criminals won't even try you.

OR, of course, you can ignore my advice, roll the dice and hope nothing bad happens. I wish you luck if you choose that route. It hasn't worked out so well for some other folks lately.

If you've read this far, I thank you for your time. If you are a cop, I hope it prompts some positive change.

As always, the views I express here are the rambling thoughts of a single curmudgeonly police trainer. They do not reflect the views of my fellow officers, supervisors, or agency."
 
I saw a post on facebook that explained one of the problems that is all too familiar in the police ranks (it's long but worth it):

"A long rant full of advice for my cop friends....

OK, after seeing Facebook and the media going crazy all day about the two most recent police-involved shootings, I have a little bit of advice for my police friends. For what it's worth, I've been a cop for 21 years and a police trainer since 1997. I have more than 75 instructor certifications in police subject areas and 4,000 hours of documented training, mostly in police use of force subjects. I spent 13 years of my career doing nothing but teaching use of force to cops as a full time job. I might know a little more than the talking head you are seeing on TV.

My cop readers need to focus on two issues:

1) Ensuring the validity of the initial transaction- The first thing that comes up in any police shooting investigation or any lawsuit filed against the cops is "Why did the cops contact the person they shot." If the reason for the contact is bogus, then everything that transpires later is viewed with suspicion.

The media works this angle to the cop's detriment. They blame the shooting on the reason for the stop, not what the suspect did afterwards. Right now we are hearing every media outlet talk about the man in Minnesota who was shot "for having a broken tail light." That's not why he was shot, but it doesn't matter in the court of public opinion.

Your contact with any citizen in an enforcement capacity needs to be rock-solid. Not only rock-solid in a legal sense, but rock-solid in the court of public opinion.

Look at the Minnesota shooting. The reason for contact (broken tail light) is valid legally, but what does the public think about cops pulling people over for bullshit like that? They don't like it. Following the logic, they will like it even less when someone gets shot as a result of a bullshit stop.

I know what the cop was doing, he was likely hunting for criminals with warrants. I see it pretty regularly. Cops pull over crappy cars for equipment violations, hunting for an arrest. Poor people who can't afford to fix busted tail lights often can't afford to pay their tickets, their child support, or their court fees. Their driver's licenses are often suspended and they regularly have warrants. Sometimes their passengers are in the same situation.

So, aggressive cop looking to arrest "bad guys" pulls over a beater car and runs everyone inside for warrants. About 1/4 of the time he gets lucky and gets an arrest. Every once in awhile, bad shit happens and the cop ends up in the national media spotlight.

STOP HASSLING PEOPLE! The fact that some dude has a suspended license or hasn't paid a speeding ticket is not negatively affecting the safety of the community you patrol. I know you want to do good things and make lots of arrests, but every stop you make has the potential to go REALLY bad. Don't stop people for bogus violations. Don't hunt minor scofflaws. The public doesn't respect you for doing so and occasionally you will get thrown under the bus when you screw something up, or your stop ends up in a shooting that you didn't intend.

Put yourself in the position of the Minnesota officer. Would you have made that traffic stop if you had known it would turn out like it did? My guess is the answer is "no". Think about that the next time you feel like making a stop for a cracked windshield or some other inconsequential violation.

2) You need more and better training. I don't know a single department in the country that gives its officers all the training they need. Initial recruit training in most states is abysmal. In Ohio, barbers get three times more training than cops get before being licensed. In-service training is even worse. I know some departments that provide NO in service training other than watching a couple videos a year.

If you are scared of legally armed citizens with CCW permits and you freak out because someone has a gun, you simply aren't confident in your own abilities. That's a huge problem. When you aren't skilled and confident, you get scared and you over react. Freaked out cops don't make good decisions. When cops don't make good decisions, they end up on the national news.

Your department won't give you the training you need. You have two options. You can seek out the training on your own or you can hope you never get into a bad spot where your lack of skills gets you killed or put in jail.

There has never been a greater variety of top notch weapons and martial arts training available for cops and private citizens. You need to start taking classes. You will be amazed at what you don't know. I was already a state-certified police firearms instructor before I took my first professional shooting class. I learned more in that first day of professional gun training than I did in the two-week police "instructor" school.

If you haven't done any training outside the academy or your agency's in-service classes, quite honestly your skills are likely to be subpar. You don't know what you are doing. You are prone to being killed or doing something stupid that will get you fired or jailed.

Even though I've been teaching gun skills professionally for almost my entire career, I still take other folks' training to keep my skills sharp. This year, I will take two weekend-long professional shooting classes and at least one three-day seminar that focuses on other issues like knife fighting, legal updates, empty hand skills and the like. And I pay for those classes (and travel costs and ammo) out of my own pocket. I shoot my guns at least weekly and pay for 5,000-10,000 rounds of practice ammo out of my own pocket every year. If you aren't doing something similar, you are not ready to fight real bad guys on the street. And you know what? Dealing with a person who has a gun doesn't freak me out. I know I'm better than he is.

The same is true with police defensive tactics training. If your only training is from the academy, you don't know how to fight. You owe it to yourself to get at least a year or two of quality training (at least 2x a week) at an outside martial arts studio that focuses on a realistic fighting art. And it better be a fighting art where you regularly train against other people who are trying to punch, kick, or choke you. Doing fancy katas in your dojo's mirror isn't adequate. Look at wrestling, Judo, Jujitsu, boxing, Muay Thai, MMA, or Krav Maga.

It doesn't have to be a lifetime passion. You just need to do the work necessary to beat most criminals. You'll be amazed at how differently you look at situations on the street when you know how to fight. Your confidence will be a game changer and the criminals won't even try you.

OR, of course, you can ignore my advice, roll the dice and hope nothing bad happens. I wish you luck if you choose that route. It hasn't worked out so well for some other folks lately.

If you've read this far, I thank you for your time. If you are a cop, I hope it prompts some positive change.

As always, the views I express here are the rambling thoughts of a single curmudgeonly police trainer. They do not reflect the views of my fellow officers, supervisors, or agency."
This is excellent advice. I regularly saw law enforcement personnel in my various martial arts training experiences that had NO idea how to defend themselves.
 
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My only point was medical. Blame will do what it will. The lack of medical response is ridiculous. I treat a lot of multiple gunshot victims and many can't be saved. But some can and he clearly was awake for a while and had no cardiac injury. Who knows if he could have been saved by a simple chest tube? The shooting should have immediately converted to a medical resuscitation.
 
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I saw a post on facebook that explained one of the problems that is all too familiar in the police ranks (it's long but worth it):

"A long rant full of advice for my cop friends....

OK, after seeing Facebook and the media going crazy all day about the two most recent police-involved shootings, I have a little bit of advice for my police friends. For what it's worth, I've been a cop for 21 years and a police trainer since 1997. I have more than 75 instructor certifications in police subject areas and 4,000 hours of documented training, mostly in police use of force subjects. I spent 13 years of my career doing nothing but teaching use of force to cops as a full time job. I might know a little more than the talking head you are seeing on TV.

My cop readers need to focus on two issues:

1) Ensuring the validity of the initial transaction- The first thing that comes up in any police shooting investigation or any lawsuit filed against the cops is "Why did the cops contact the person they shot." If the reason for the contact is bogus, then everything that transpires later is viewed with suspicion.

The media works this angle to the cop's detriment. They blame the shooting on the reason for the stop, not what the suspect did afterwards. Right now we are hearing every media outlet talk about the man in Minnesota who was shot "for having a broken tail light." That's not why he was shot, but it doesn't matter in the court of public opinion.

Your contact with any citizen in an enforcement capacity needs to be rock-solid. Not only rock-solid in a legal sense, but rock-solid in the court of public opinion.

Look at the Minnesota shooting. The reason for contact (broken tail light) is valid legally, but what does the public think about cops pulling people over for bullshit like that? They don't like it. Following the logic, they will like it even less when someone gets shot as a result of a bullshit stop.

I know what the cop was doing, he was likely hunting for criminals with warrants. I see it pretty regularly. Cops pull over crappy cars for equipment violations, hunting for an arrest. Poor people who can't afford to fix busted tail lights often can't afford to pay their tickets, their child support, or their court fees. Their driver's licenses are often suspended and they regularly have warrants. Sometimes their passengers are in the same situation.

So, aggressive cop looking to arrest "bad guys" pulls over a beater car and runs everyone inside for warrants. About 1/4 of the time he gets lucky and gets an arrest. Every once in awhile, bad shit happens and the cop ends up in the national media spotlight.

STOP HASSLING PEOPLE! The fact that some dude has a suspended license or hasn't paid a speeding ticket is not negatively affecting the safety of the community you patrol. I know you want to do good things and make lots of arrests, but every stop you make has the potential to go REALLY bad. Don't stop people for bogus violations. Don't hunt minor scofflaws. The public doesn't respect you for doing so and occasionally you will get thrown under the bus when you screw something up, or your stop ends up in a shooting that you didn't intend.

Put yourself in the position of the Minnesota officer. Would you have made that traffic stop if you had known it would turn out like it did? My guess is the answer is "no". Think about that the next time you feel like making a stop for a cracked windshield or some other inconsequential violation.

2) You need more and better training. I don't know a single department in the country that gives its officers all the training they need. Initial recruit training in most states is abysmal. In Ohio, barbers get three times more training than cops get before being licensed. In-service training is even worse. I know some departments that provide NO in service training other than watching a couple videos a year.

If you are scared of legally armed citizens with CCW permits and you freak out because someone has a gun, you simply aren't confident in your own abilities. That's a huge problem. When you aren't skilled and confident, you get scared and you over react. Freaked out cops don't make good decisions. When cops don't make good decisions, they end up on the national news.

Your department won't give you the training you need. You have two options. You can seek out the training on your own or you can hope you never get into a bad spot where your lack of skills gets you killed or put in jail.

There has never been a greater variety of top notch weapons and martial arts training available for cops and private citizens. You need to start taking classes. You will be amazed at what you don't know. I was already a state-certified police firearms instructor before I took my first professional shooting class. I learned more in that first day of professional gun training than I did in the two-week police "instructor" school.

If you haven't done any training outside the academy or your agency's in-service classes, quite honestly your skills are likely to be subpar. You don't know what you are doing. You are prone to being killed or doing something stupid that will get you fired or jailed.

Even though I've been teaching gun skills professionally for almost my entire career, I still take other folks' training to keep my skills sharp. This year, I will take two weekend-long professional shooting classes and at least one three-day seminar that focuses on other issues like knife fighting, legal updates, empty hand skills and the like. And I pay for those classes (and travel costs and ammo) out of my own pocket. I shoot my guns at least weekly and pay for 5,000-10,000 rounds of practice ammo out of my own pocket every year. If you aren't doing something similar, you are not ready to fight real bad guys on the street. And you know what? Dealing with a person who has a gun doesn't freak me out. I know I'm better than he is.

The same is true with police defensive tactics training. If your only training is from the academy, you don't know how to fight. You owe it to yourself to get at least a year or two of quality training (at least 2x a week) at an outside martial arts studio that focuses on a realistic fighting art. And it better be a fighting art where you regularly train against other people who are trying to punch, kick, or choke you. Doing fancy katas in your dojo's mirror isn't adequate. Look at wrestling, Judo, Jujitsu, boxing, Muay Thai, MMA, or Krav Maga.

It doesn't have to be a lifetime passion. You just need to do the work necessary to beat most criminals. You'll be amazed at how differently you look at situations on the street when you know how to fight. Your confidence will be a game changer and the criminals won't even try you.

OR, of course, you can ignore my advice, roll the dice and hope nothing bad happens. I wish you luck if you choose that route. It hasn't worked out so well for some other folks lately.

If you've read this far, I thank you for your time. If you are a cop, I hope it prompts some positive change.

As always, the views I express here are the rambling thoughts of a single curmudgeonly police trainer. They do not reflect the views of my fellow officers, supervisors, or agency."

His take on the lack of training is scary. I did not realize that a police officer needs to do that much extra training on their own to adequately do their job. Thanks for sharing.
 
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I saw a post on facebook that explained one of the problems that is all too familiar in the police ranks (it's long but worth it):

"A long rant full of advice for my cop friends....

OK, after seeing Facebook and the media going crazy all day about the two most recent police-involved shootings, I have a little bit of advice for my police friends. For what it's worth, I've been a cop for 21 years and a police trainer since 1997. I have more than 75 instructor certifications in police subject areas and 4,000 hours of documented training, mostly in police use of force subjects. I spent 13 years of my career doing nothing but teaching use of force to cops as a full time job. I might know a little more than the talking head you are seeing on TV.

My cop readers need to focus on two issues:

1) Ensuring the validity of the initial transaction- The first thing that comes up in any police shooting investigation or any lawsuit filed against the cops is "Why did the cops contact the person they shot." If the reason for the contact is bogus, then everything that transpires later is viewed with suspicion.

The media works this angle to the cop's detriment. They blame the shooting on the reason for the stop, not what the suspect did afterwards. Right now we are hearing every media outlet talk about the man in Minnesota who was shot "for having a broken tail light." That's not why he was shot, but it doesn't matter in the court of public opinion.

Your contact with any citizen in an enforcement capacity needs to be rock-solid. Not only rock-solid in a legal sense, but rock-solid in the court of public opinion.

Look at the Minnesota shooting. The reason for contact (broken tail light) is valid legally, but what does the public think about cops pulling people over for bullshit like that? They don't like it. Following the logic, they will like it even less when someone gets shot as a result of a bullshit stop.

I know what the cop was doing, he was likely hunting for criminals with warrants. I see it pretty regularly. Cops pull over crappy cars for equipment violations, hunting for an arrest. Poor people who can't afford to fix busted tail lights often can't afford to pay their tickets, their child support, or their court fees. Their driver's licenses are often suspended and they regularly have warrants. Sometimes their passengers are in the same situation.

So, aggressive cop looking to arrest "bad guys" pulls over a beater car and runs everyone inside for warrants. About 1/4 of the time he gets lucky and gets an arrest. Every once in awhile, bad shit happens and the cop ends up in the national media spotlight.

STOP HASSLING PEOPLE! The fact that some dude has a suspended license or hasn't paid a speeding ticket is not negatively affecting the safety of the community you patrol. I know you want to do good things and make lots of arrests, but every stop you make has the potential to go REALLY bad. Don't stop people for bogus violations. Don't hunt minor scofflaws. The public doesn't respect you for doing so and occasionally you will get thrown under the bus when you screw something up, or your stop ends up in a shooting that you didn't intend.

Put yourself in the position of the Minnesota officer. Would you have made that traffic stop if you had known it would turn out like it did? My guess is the answer is "no". Think about that the next time you feel like making a stop for a cracked windshield or some other inconsequential violation.

2) You need more and better training. I don't know a single department in the country that gives its officers all the training they need. Initial recruit training in most states is abysmal. In Ohio, barbers get three times more training than cops get before being licensed. In-service training is even worse. I know some departments that provide NO in service training other than watching a couple videos a year.

If you are scared of legally armed citizens with CCW permits and you freak out because someone has a gun, you simply aren't confident in your own abilities. That's a huge problem. When you aren't skilled and confident, you get scared and you over react. Freaked out cops don't make good decisions. When cops don't make good decisions, they end up on the national news.

Your department won't give you the training you need. You have two options. You can seek out the training on your own or you can hope you never get into a bad spot where your lack of skills gets you killed or put in jail.

There has never been a greater variety of top notch weapons and martial arts training available for cops and private citizens. You need to start taking classes. You will be amazed at what you don't know. I was already a state-certified police firearms instructor before I took my first professional shooting class. I learned more in that first day of professional gun training than I did in the two-week police "instructor" school.

If you haven't done any training outside the academy or your agency's in-service classes, quite honestly your skills are likely to be subpar. You don't know what you are doing. You are prone to being killed or doing something stupid that will get you fired or jailed.

Even though I've been teaching gun skills professionally for almost my entire career, I still take other folks' training to keep my skills sharp. This year, I will take two weekend-long professional shooting classes and at least one three-day seminar that focuses on other issues like knife fighting, legal updates, empty hand skills and the like. And I pay for those classes (and travel costs and ammo) out of my own pocket. I shoot my guns at least weekly and pay for 5,000-10,000 rounds of practice ammo out of my own pocket every year. If you aren't doing something similar, you are not ready to fight real bad guys on the street. And you know what? Dealing with a person who has a gun doesn't freak me out. I know I'm better than he is.

The same is true with police defensive tactics training. If your only training is from the academy, you don't know how to fight. You owe it to yourself to get at least a year or two of quality training (at least 2x a week) at an outside martial arts studio that focuses on a realistic fighting art. And it better be a fighting art where you regularly train against other people who are trying to punch, kick, or choke you. Doing fancy katas in your dojo's mirror isn't adequate. Look at wrestling, Judo, Jujitsu, boxing, Muay Thai, MMA, or Krav Maga.

It doesn't have to be a lifetime passion. You just need to do the work necessary to beat most criminals. You'll be amazed at how differently you look at situations on the street when you know how to fight. Your confidence will be a game changer and the criminals won't even try you.

OR, of course, you can ignore my advice, roll the dice and hope nothing bad happens. I wish you luck if you choose that route. It hasn't worked out so well for some other folks lately.

If you've read this far, I thank you for your time. If you are a cop, I hope it prompts some positive change.

As always, the views I express here are the rambling thoughts of a single curmudgeonly police trainer. They do not reflect the views of my fellow officers, supervisors, or agency."

Thanks for sharing SWU. Good to know the Anderson area cops are training and stay on top of things. Least that's what I hope, they certainly have the resources readily available,
 
His take on the lack of training is scary. I did not realize that a police officer needs to do that much extra training on their own to adequately do their job. Thanks for sharing.
IMO, police officers should receive the same amount of training as our Military personnel. Always evolving and learning. It's really not any different. Just think if our Armed Forces received the amount of training most Police officers receive, we would get slaughtered in Battle.
 
Thanks for sharing SWU. Good to know the Anderson area cops are training and stay on top of things. Least that's what I hope, they certainly have the resources readily available,
I thought about sharing this with their new minted sheriff, Chad McBride.
 
What bothers me about this shooting is the rush to judgement. There is no evidence to support either the cop or the victim. We the public have no idea what happened, or didn't happen, before the tape started.

This. Everyone jumped all over the Trayvon and Michael Brown cases, then once all the evidence came out, they were by no means victims.
 
His take on the lack of training is scary. I did not realize that a police officer needs to do that much extra training on their own to adequately do their job. Thanks for sharing.
It's equally sad that these departments have the funding to buy military equipment yet won't spend money on adequate training and self defense. I mean WTF!
 
Didn't actually see the shooting or what precipitated it. All we saw was Suellen seizing the moment for her fifteen minutes. Obviously, she didn't give two shits the dying man.
 
I saw a post on facebook that explained one of the problems that is all too familiar in the police ranks (it's long but worth it):

"A long rant full of advice for my cop friends....

OK, after seeing Facebook and the media going crazy all day about the two most recent police-involved shootings, I have a little bit of advice for my police friends. For what it's worth, I've been a cop for 21 years and a police trainer since 1997. I have more than 75 instructor certifications in police subject areas and 4,000 hours of documented training, mostly in police use of force subjects. I spent 13 years of my career doing nothing but teaching use of force to cops as a full time job. I might know a little more than the talking head you are seeing on TV.

My cop readers need to focus on two issues:

1) Ensuring the validity of the initial transaction- The first thing that comes up in any police shooting investigation or any lawsuit filed against the cops is "Why did the cops contact the person they shot." If the reason for the contact is bogus, then everything that transpires later is viewed with suspicion.

The media works this angle to the cop's detriment. They blame the shooting on the reason for the stop, not what the suspect did afterwards. Right now we are hearing every media outlet talk about the man in Minnesota who was shot "for having a broken tail light." That's not why he was shot, but it doesn't matter in the court of public opinion.

Your contact with any citizen in an enforcement capacity needs to be rock-solid. Not only rock-solid in a legal sense, but rock-solid in the court of public opinion.

Look at the Minnesota shooting. The reason for contact (broken tail light) is valid legally, but what does the public think about cops pulling people over for bullshit like that? They don't like it. Following the logic, they will like it even less when someone gets shot as a result of a bullshit stop.

I know what the cop was doing, he was likely hunting for criminals with warrants. I see it pretty regularly. Cops pull over crappy cars for equipment violations, hunting for an arrest. Poor people who can't afford to fix busted tail lights often can't afford to pay their tickets, their child support, or their court fees. Their driver's licenses are often suspended and they regularly have warrants. Sometimes their passengers are in the same situation.

So, aggressive cop looking to arrest "bad guys" pulls over a beater car and runs everyone inside for warrants. About 1/4 of the time he gets lucky and gets an arrest. Every once in awhile, bad shit happens and the cop ends up in the national media spotlight.

STOP HASSLING PEOPLE! The fact that some dude has a suspended license or hasn't paid a speeding ticket is not negatively affecting the safety of the community you patrol. I know you want to do good things and make lots of arrests, but every stop you make has the potential to go REALLY bad. Don't stop people for bogus violations. Don't hunt minor scofflaws. The public doesn't respect you for doing so and occasionally you will get thrown under the bus when you screw something up, or your stop ends up in a shooting that you didn't intend.

Put yourself in the position of the Minnesota officer. Would you have made that traffic stop if you had known it would turn out like it did? My guess is the answer is "no". Think about that the next time you feel like making a stop for a cracked windshield or some other inconsequential violation.

2) You need more and better training. I don't know a single department in the country that gives its officers all the training they need. Initial recruit training in most states is abysmal. In Ohio, barbers get three times more training than cops get before being licensed. In-service training is even worse. I know some departments that provide NO in service training other than watching a couple videos a year.

If you are scared of legally armed citizens with CCW permits and you freak out because someone has a gun, you simply aren't confident in your own abilities. That's a huge problem. When you aren't skilled and confident, you get scared and you over react. Freaked out cops don't make good decisions. When cops don't make good decisions, they end up on the national news.

Your department won't give you the training you need. You have two options. You can seek out the training on your own or you can hope you never get into a bad spot where your lack of skills gets you killed or put in jail.

There has never been a greater variety of top notch weapons and martial arts training available for cops and private citizens. You need to start taking classes. You will be amazed at what you don't know. I was already a state-certified police firearms instructor before I took my first professional shooting class. I learned more in that first day of professional gun training than I did in the two-week police "instructor" school.

If you haven't done any training outside the academy or your agency's in-service classes, quite honestly your skills are likely to be subpar. You don't know what you are doing. You are prone to being killed or doing something stupid that will get you fired or jailed.

Even though I've been teaching gun skills professionally for almost my entire career, I still take other folks' training to keep my skills sharp. This year, I will take two weekend-long professional shooting classes and at least one three-day seminar that focuses on other issues like knife fighting, legal updates, empty hand skills and the like. And I pay for those classes (and travel costs and ammo) out of my own pocket. I shoot my guns at least weekly and pay for 5,000-10,000 rounds of practice ammo out of my own pocket every year. If you aren't doing something similar, you are not ready to fight real bad guys on the street. And you know what? Dealing with a person who has a gun doesn't freak me out. I know I'm better than he is.

The same is true with police defensive tactics training. If your only training is from the academy, you don't know how to fight. You owe it to yourself to get at least a year or two of quality training (at least 2x a week) at an outside martial arts studio that focuses on a realistic fighting art. And it better be a fighting art where you regularly train against other people who are trying to punch, kick, or choke you. Doing fancy katas in your dojo's mirror isn't adequate. Look at wrestling, Judo, Jujitsu, boxing, Muay Thai, MMA, or Krav Maga.

It doesn't have to be a lifetime passion. You just need to do the work necessary to beat most criminals. You'll be amazed at how differently you look at situations on the street when you know how to fight. Your confidence will be a game changer and the criminals won't even try you.

OR, of course, you can ignore my advice, roll the dice and hope nothing bad happens. I wish you luck if you choose that route. It hasn't worked out so well for some other folks lately.

If you've read this far, I thank you for your time. If you are a cop, I hope it prompts some positive change.

As always, the views I express here are the rambling thoughts of a single curmudgeonly police trainer. They do not reflect the views of my fellow officers, supervisors, or agency."

Part of a post I made yesterday was about lack of training and I got criticized. Ohhhhh from the mouth of a police professional.
 
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George Zimmerman is a first class murderer. Everything he did in that shooting was premeditated.

Not really. And he was cleared by a jury. Most people didn't look at all the evidence and made up their minds.....similar to Michael Brown. Don't get me wrong, Zimmermann is a major chode.

But Michael Brown and Martin do not belong in the same argument as Walter Scott, Rice, Garner, etc.
 
This. Everyone jumped all over the Trayvon and Michael Brown cases, then once all the evidence came out, they were by no means victims.

Respectfully disagreeing, there was no video of either of the cases you mentioned. And in the videos released of this shooting, it shows an officer bull rush and slam a guy to the ground while his partner shoots him point blank in the chest multiple times.

Having seen the video, the cops escalated the situation, not the other way around (Michael brown rushed an officer and who knows with trayvon, although I tend to think he was also at fault).

In the videos at large in this case, homeboy was no aggressor (and the store owner- who allowed him on premises to do his 'thang'- has said as much also).

It was unjustified in my opinion and shows a lack of proper restraint and training on the officers' part.
 
His take on the lack of training is scary. I did not realize that a police officer needs to do that much extra training on their own to adequately do their job. Thanks for sharing.

The fact that this needs to be emphasized is what terrifies me:

Your contact with any citizen in an enforcement capacity needs to be rock-solid. Not only rock-solid in a legal sense, but rock-solid in the court of public opinion.
 
Respectfully disagreeing, there was no video of either of the cases you mentioned. And in the videos released of this shooting, it shows an officer bull rush and slam a guy to the ground while his partner shoots him point blank in the chest multiple times.

Having seen the video, the cops escalated the situation, not the other way around (Michael brown rushed an officer and who knows with trayvon, although I tend to think he was also at fault).

In the videos at large in this case, homeboy was no aggressor (and the store owner- who allowed him on premises to do his 'thang'- has said as much also).

It was unjustified in my opinion and shows a lack of proper restraint and training on the officers' part.

I do agree these two (minnesota and Dallas) look very one sided....especially Minnesota. And if that is the case, I hope the cops are sent to jail. I am just saying we shouldnt rush to judgement. Everyone did the same with Michael Brown, and it turns out, he attacked the cop and beat the shit out of him, and it turned out all of the witnesses had different stories. End story, the cop in that case was completely justified.

Like I said, these two cases look different though...especially the actions of the cop in Minnesota after the shooting.
 
I do agree these two (minnesota and Dallas) look very one sided....especially Minnesota. And if that is the case, I hope the cops are sent to jail. I am just saying we shouldnt rush to judgement. Everyone did the same with Michael Brown, and it turns out, he attacked the cop and beat the shit out of him, and it turned out all of the witnesses had different stories. End story, the cop in that case was completely justified.

Like I said, these two cases look different though...especially the actions of the cop in Minnesota after the shooting.

The problem is the rush to judgement and sensationalism that is so prevalant in today's society. It's sometimes hard to tell up from down anymore.
 
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My only point was medical. Blame will do what it will. The lack of medical response is ridiculous. I treat a lot of multiple gunshot victims and many can't be saved. But some can and he clearly was awake for a while and had no cardiac injury. Who knows if he could have been saved by a simple chest tube? The shooting should have immediately converted to a medical resuscitation.

I think the girl was in no position to move since the cop who shot her boyfriend was still pointing the weapon inside the car.

I think the cop was in shock. ***THIS IS NOT EXCUSING THE SHOOTING*** Even if he had the training to theoretically provide first aid, I think he went full spaz once he realized the guy was dead.

By the time back-up arrived, it was too late.
 
Didn't need first aid. He needed to be put in an ambulance and in 5 minutes could have been receiving trauma blood and rolling to the OR. Don't know if it would have mattered but I've seen it work. The cop was the problem even after the shooting for continuing too waste time standing there with the gun when there was a life to save
 
Didn't need first aid. He needed to be put in an ambulance and in 5 minutes could have been receiving trauma blood and rolling to the OR. Don't know if it would have mattered but I've seen it work. The cop was the problem even after the shooting for continuing too waste time standing there with the gun when there was a life to save

I'm not sure what this means.

Additional responders (off video - but assume the best case and and ambulance arrived) showed up while the video played. The guy was dead by the time anyone else got there. So the cop called someone, immediately, before the video started.

So unless you can think of some way for a faster ambulance to get there, the only additional thing the cop could've done would have been to apply first aid.
 
I heard he was alive and moaning for 20 min after the shooting while nothing happened
 
Wait for the facts to come out on both these cases.

Newly released video in Louisiana shows why the officer may have used force.

I'll wait and see what comes out.
 
I was watching the movie EYE in the SKY and was reading about the shootings both in LA and MN

The details that go into launching a HELLFIRE missile are incredibly complicated and drawn out and very detailed

the confrontation between a police officer and a person on the street can be very messy and decisions have to be made on a split second basis

I really don't understand the calm demeanor of the lady recording on Facebook NOR why the police officer kept his gun raised

It was rather bizarre

Since seeing the video I have heard information that if correct changes my first impression of what happened

One bit of information was that the car was stopped based on the man resembling a bank robber, then I understand the gun was not in the pocket but was in the mans lap and he was reaching into his lap

the policeman as I understand it is not Caucasian but of Mexican descent

The above information may be wrong as I heard it in passing so my thinking is based on that information

if the above information is correct then that changes some of the narrative however there are still lots of questions I have that I would like to have answered

As an example of my thinking in the Charleston shooting by a police officer of a suspect running away from the officer the shooting was totally unjustified as the danger the officer claimed was fleeing the scene so there was no imminent danger to him

At worse murder, but lacks pre-medition but still murder of some degree

All of these cases do need in depth investigation as any person killed by whatever means or person we should work as a society and people to minimize these losses to families
 
It's equally sad that these departments have the funding to buy military equipment yet won't spend money on adequate training and self defense. I mean WTF!
Military equipment WAS given by federal government. A lot of that was cut when Mr. Obama thought Feeguson looked to militarized.
 
People still think Michael Brown was a victim?

That is the attitude that keeps the hate against POs going strong. IT was proven in a court of law that Michael Brown assailed the PO who basically defended his life. It was also proven that some of the initial interviews that got to the media and social media were lies.

Yet, beyond all reasonable thought, a segment of our population still view Michael Brown as some sort of innocent victim.

It doesn't help that our administration immediately goes to the town, again without all the facts, and stirs up racial tensions. When you have the leader of our country who is not intelligent enough to let ALL the facts come out before he starts spouting some crap about prosecuting bad cops(related to specific incidents like Michael Brown) - well of course the black community is going to cue off his reaction and feel justified. Off topic comment: Obama is the worst president in my lifetime, and that includes Jimmy Carter.
 
Didn't need first aid. He needed to be put in an ambulance and in 5 minutes could have been receiving trauma blood and rolling to the OR. Don't know if it would have mattered but I've seen it work. The cop was the problem even after the shooting for continuing too waste time standing there with the gun when there was a life to save

Surely you're not going to insult our intelligence and tell us you really don't believe he called for medical assistance before the girlfriend started recording?

Either he called for it or knew it was on the way.
 
The way that officer was pump up after the shooting shows me he has a problem. You cannot have someone have a gun that cannot control his emotions and energies. That officer was so amp-ed up that he flat out lost it and could not control himself. I see a lot of similarities to the officer shooting in Charleston. A better psychological evaluation and training is going to be needed for many police officers. They have split second decisions to make, but they need to learn when to pump the breaks. You cannot go around shooting people then realizing after the fact that you made the wrong decision. Usually I side with the law enforcement, this time I believe they were at fault.
 
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Not really. And he was cleared by a jury. Most people didn't look at all the evidence and made up their minds.....similar to Michael Brown. Don't get me wrong, Zimmermann is a major chode.

But Michael Brown and Martin do not belong in the same argument as Walter Scott, Rice, Garner, etc.

I completely understand why people would have a hard time viewing Michael Brown as a victim. But in what way does Trayvon not fit that description?
And save me the jury thing. OJ was also acquitted because of a jury.
 
I do agree these two (minnesota and Dallas) look very one sided....especially Minnesota. And if that is the case, I hope the cops are sent to jail. I am just saying we shouldnt rush to judgement. Everyone did the same with Michael Brown, and it turns out, he attacked the cop and beat the shit out of him, and it turned out all of the witnesses had different stories. End story, the cop in that case was completely justified.

Like I said, these two cases look different though...especially the actions of the cop in Minnesota after the shooting.
And his life ruined by the liberal media.
 
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