NSIAP I will just leave this here...(rona related)

[moradatiger70]

EXCLUSIVE: SC woman’s death certificate lists COVID-19, but family says she never had it!

https://www.wistv.com/2020/08/13/exclusive-sc-womans-death-certificate-lists-covid-family-says-she-never-had-it/

 

[nsp1996]

These aren't the 'droids you are looking for. You can go about your business. Move along.

(and be afraid of the scary monster that is living under your bead waiting for you)

 

[amynhop]

EXCLUSIVE: SC woman’s death certificate lists COVID-19, but family says she never had it!

https://www.wistv.com/2020/08/13/exclusive-sc-womans-death-certificate-lists-covid-family-says-she-never-had-it/

I posted the same thing in the round table thread that says the numbers are being misrepresented.

 

[Jangalang1]

Hospitals get financial incentives for covid deaths, right?

 

[fatpiggy]

The numbers are not up for debate. They are all accurate, correctly identified and they distinguish between dying soley of rona and dying of other natural causes with rona in your system. This is not up for debate.

 

[dandeman330]

Hospitals get financial incentives for covid deaths, right?

They don't get money for covid deaths. They do get reimbursed for covid treatment through Medicare at an increased rate. It's part of the CARES Act and is supposed to help hospitals cover extra costs associated with treating Covid patients.

https://www.aha.org/advisory/2020-0...es-guidance-implementing-cares-act-provisions

 

[hopefultiger13]

Yawn... Are there mistakes? You bet. Name ANYTHING that's big enough to be important, and you'll find mistakes. They are exceptions to the rule, not the norm. I'm sure there's someone who died of COVID that was marked as something else. Same thing.

 

[TigerJR]

Follow the money

 

[eubyscott]

Yawn... Are there mistakes? You bet. Name ANYTHING that's big enough to be important, and you'll find mistakes. They are exceptions to the rule, not the norm. I'm sure there's someone who died of COVID that was marked as something else. Same thing.

But that wouldn’t fit in with all the conspiracy theories out there. Everything that doesn’t align with someone’s beliefs is automatically a conspiracy now.

 

[pickenstiger]

Yawn... Are there mistakes? You bet. Name ANYTHING that's big enough to be important, and you'll find mistakes. They are exceptions to the rule, not the norm. I'm sure there's someone who died of COVID that was marked as something else. Same thing.

Mmm i don't think so. Current state of affairs in our country, lot more incentive to name any condition as a complication of COVID. So no, if there's a chance to name something as COVID they will not name it as something else. Doesn't fit the narrative otherwise
I'm waiting for more testing to done with influenza this coming flu season. But of course, who wants to compare apples to apples when dealing with case numbers for something other than COVID.

 

[Cavitybacks]

This seems fairly simple....

Look at avg number of deaths in one year in SC.

Look at avg number of deaths at the end of this year in SC.

Compare the numbers. If you see a spike, then that would tell you something was different.

I do not feel like looking this up.

 

[HunterPKP]

Yawn... Are there mistakes? You bet. Name ANYTHING that's big enough to be important, and you'll find mistakes. They are exceptions to the rule, not the norm. I'm sure there's someone who died of COVID that was marked as something else. Same thing.

Yawn all you want. There are exceptions and then big, fraudulent missteps. The coding of COVID deaths is a prime example of this. My wife's sister is a FBI agent specializing in Pharma Fraud. The FBI has spun up another very large team to investigate COVID coding fraud by hospital groups coding inaccurately to gain access to more of the stimulus money. That doesn't happen for an exception. Stay tuned on that one.

 

[HumasButthole]

The numbers are not up for debate. They are all accurate, correctly identified and they distinguish between dying soley of rona and dying of other natural causes with rona in your system. This is not up for debate.

Oh, well, I guess that settles it then

 

[SGTiger]

Yawn... Are there mistakes? You bet. Name ANYTHING that's big enough to be important, and you'll find mistakes. They are exceptions to the rule, not the norm. I'm sure there's someone who died of COVID that was marked as something else. Same thing.

Yeah, no one would falsify records for financial gain. They are just mistakes. Bless your little low-IQ heart.

 

[CUFam98]

Yeah, no one would falsify records for financial gain. They are just mistakes. Bless your little low-IQ heart.

What is the financial gain?

 

[hopefultiger13]

But that wouldn’t fit in with all the conspiracy theories out there. Everything that doesn’t align with someone’s beliefs is automatically a conspiracy now.

Yep. In my opinion, THIS is the single worst thing Trump (and to a lesser extent, the Republican party) has done to this country.

A death certificate is filled out wrong and it seems a BUNCH of folks think that It's PROOF that there's a massive conspiracy to inflate COVID numbers. When did this kind of thinking become the norm? Seriously, which is more likely. Some clerk filling out the form wrong or a vast conspiracy (involving literally thousands of clerks across the country) intentionally doing the wrong thing just to inflate the numbers and presumably "get Trump". REALLY?

I mean how many times does Trump go to this well before SOMEONE in the Republican party says he's full of shit. Let's see.. who's involved in a conspiracy against Trump?... Let's start with the QANON folks and their NWO run by billionare and actor pedifiles, the FBI, the CIA, all the other intelligence agencies, the Justice Dept, all Climate Researchers around the world, let's not forget the entire free press (enemies of the people), every Democrat , the NIH, the CDC, the FDA, all the doctors that did the study for the hydroxy meds, let's not forget the National Hurricane Center (those bastards!... if they'd just quit monitoring hurricanes, we wouldn't have as many high category storms), alternative energy folks promoting those windmills that cause cancer (that's not a joke), every state government (except Florida) that promotes mail in voting, FEMA for saying that 3000 people died in the Puerto Rico Hurricane... it was done by Dems to make Trump look bad. I'm sure I'm missing some. But look at that list... are all those people doing the wrong thing just to "get Trump"? Or maybe, just maybe a single lying shady businessman is being a lying shady businessman.

Is there ANYONE that disagrees with Trump that isn't part of some conspiracy to "get Trump".

 

[dandeman330]

This seems fairly simple....

Look at avg number of deaths in one year in SC.

Look at avg number of deaths at the end of this year in SC.

Compare the numbers. If you see a spike, then that would tell you something was different.

I do not feel like looking this up.

So I was curious and obviously the data is not finalized but does seem to support the current totals.

Currently per the CDC the are 34,320 deaths in SC through week ending 8.1.20

Average Expected Death Count is 30,600


Currently through 8.13.20 for SCDHEC there have been 2,089 confirmed and 97 probable. So the official count is on the low end of excess deaths.

Now there are other factors. Decrease in auto accidents due to reduced travel, Increase due to delaying of medical care for other ailments(e.g. Heart attacks and strokes); increase in domestic violence deaths, suicides etc.

Here's the data.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

 

[hopefultiger13]

So I was curious and obviously the data is not finalized but does seem to support the current totals.

Currently per the CDC the are 34,320 deaths in SC through week ending 8.1.20

Average Expected Death Count is 30,600


Currently through 8.13.20 for SCDHEC there have been 2,089 confirmed and 97 probable. So the official count is on the low end of excess deaths.

Now there are other factors. Decrease in auto accidents due to reduced travel, Increase due to delaying of medical care for other ailments(e.g. Heart attacks and strokes); increase in domestic violence deaths, suicides etc.

Here's the data.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

Dude, SCDHEC is obviously part of the Deep State. They are ALL secret Dems and are out to get Trump.

 

[pwjacks]

It is truly sad how the media doesn't do any actual investigating and how that allows a narrative to take hold that is clearly politically motivated. The financial gain and incentive for health care facilities to list someone as COVID positive is simple and easy to find. And yes, it absolutely results in deaths being "attributed" to COVID that are incorrect. How often is this happening? Don't know, but the fraud enforcement is already starting and will be signficant over the next few years. The article may or may not be an example. Another well known possible example (though I would say probable) is the revelation a few weeks ago that dozens of Florida labs were reporting 100% positive. Seems like a minor or irrelevant problem, but when you understand the CARES act distribution and compliance requirements, you will look at it from a different perspective.

Do hospitals or other providers get paid more for covid deaths? No. But, you ultimately get to the same result because of the significant funds given to hospitals/other providers for COVID treatment. First, as everyone knows, they get paid more than normal DRG payment if they code the patient as COVID positive. If they code them as COVID positive, then if the patient dies, it is a COVID death. Second, and what everyone doesn't know, is that virtually all health care providers received money from the CARES act through direct lump payments. For example, Prisma Health Midlands received $27,466,707. If the provider kept the funds (they had the option to send it back), they have to certify to CMS that they funds are used for matters relating to COVID. If a patient is COVID positive, funds can be used for those expenses, if they are not COVID positive, they can't. Again, financial incentive to list a patient as COVID positive. If they are listed as positive and they die, its a COVID death.

None of this is to say that that the deaths are wildly overstated, but any statement that the relationship between COVID deaths and reimbursement doesn't exist is just flat wrong.

 

[jebsdaddy]

Let's just say there is a 10% error in coding the deaths. Remember there is just as likely to be some that are missed and coded as something other than covid. Even if there is a 10% conspiracy number out there does that really change anything? So we have only had 150k die as opposed to 166k. It is still a big deal either way.

 

[iceheart08]

They don't get money for covid deaths. They do get reimbursed for covid treatment through Medicare at an increased rate. It's part of the CARES Act and is supposed to help hospitals cover extra costs associated with treating Covid patients.

https://www.aha.org/advisory/2020-0...es-guidance-implementing-cares-act-provisions

if a death is coded as the result of COVID, does that mean the hospital is eligible for that 20% in reimbursement for the treatment regardless of the treatment? For isntance, if the hospital says a person died of COVID, but it was really, say, a car accident, will the hospital get extra reimbursement for the work they did to fix that persons broken, say, spine?

 

[dandeman330]

if a death is coded as the result of COVID, does that mean the hospital is eligible for that 20% in reimbursement for the treatment regardless of the treatment? For isntance, if the hospital says a person died of COVID, but it was really, say, a car accident, will the hospital get extra reimbursement for the work they did to fix that persons broken, say, spine?

It's not if they died of it's what they are treated for. I would think spinal surgery would be reimbursed at a higher rate than covid that's a very complicated surgery. It's similar to visiting the dentist. Insurance company reimburses for cleaning at one rate, cavity at another, crown at another. I guess you could say everyone got the most expensive/profitable treatment everytime you submit a claim but eventually that's going to stand out and you'll get caught for fraud.

Now, could hospitals say a flu patient had covid and get reimbursed at higher rate. I guess. Hopefully, there are some controls in place but Medicare fraud would not be new to covid. It happens all the time.

 

[iceheart08]

It's not if they died of it's what they are treated for. I would think spinal surgery would be reimbursed at a higher rate than covid that's a very complicated surgery. It's similar to visiting the dentist. Insurance company reimburses for cleaning at one rate, cavity at another, crown at another. I guess you could say everyone got the most expensive/profitable treatment everytime you submit a claim but eventually that's going to stand out and you'll get caught for fraud.

Now, could hospitals say a flu patient had covid and get reimbursed at higher rate. I guess. Hopefully, there are some controls in place but Medicare fraud would not be new to covid. It happens all the time.

so, to be clear, coding a death as covid related does not entitle a hospital to an increased reimbursement rate for ANY treatment that patient received, just treatments approved and related to COVID? So thats not part of the incentive structure in CODING a death as COVID (obviously there are other incentives to do so though).

 

[dandeman330]

so, to be clear, coding a death as covid related does not entitle a hospital to an increased reimbursement rate for ANY treatment that patient received, just treatments approved and related to COVID? So thats not part of the incentive structure in CODING a death as COVID (obviously there are other incentives to do so though).

Yes. I would say there are incentives but you do not get reimbursed for each death.

 

[dandeman330]

so, to be clear, coding a death as covid related does not entitle a hospital to an increased reimbursement rate for ANY treatment that patient received, just treatments approved and related to COVID? So thats not part of the incentive structure in CODING a death as COVID (obviously there are other incentives to do so though).

Another item to consider. Let's say you were in a car wreck and you had covid. The hospital is not going to treat you in the regular ward due to the risk of infection of the non-covid patients in that ward. Therefore you would be treated in the Covid ward even though you were admitted for a car accident.

 

[MFunkhouser]

EXCLUSIVE: SC woman’s death certificate lists COVID-19, but family says she never had it!

https://www.wistv.com/2020/08/13/exclusive-sc-womans-death-certificate-lists-covid-family-says-she-never-had-it/

This was a good friend of mines grandmother. Died at home. Transported straight to the funeral home, no tear ever administered. Has had dementia/Alzheimer’s for years. This is not a one off. The numbers are juiced, if you can’t see that then you’re a total moron and a sheep. If it wasn’t an election year, or if Barry O was in office, this would barely be a story anymore.

 

[castlesl]

The numbers are not up for debate. They are all accurate, correctly identified and they distinguish between dying soley of rona and dying of other natural causes with rona in your system. This is not up for debate.

Thank goodness you are the authority on this matter and settled that for everyone. It is utterly unthinkable that someone, particularly at a hospital, would fudge a document (that ultimately has no bearing on anything or anyone) solely for the purpose of getting a lot of money.

 

[pwjacks]

Summary of my post.

1. Hospitals are not directly reimbursed, paid, or incentivized for categorizing COVID as a cause of or contributing to death.
2. Hospitals have a significant incentive through enhanced reimbursement to diagnose a patient as having COVID. If they diagnose them with COVID and the die, COVID will be listed, as a minimum, as contributing to death (but no, not if they die in a car accident so don't read that into my statement)
3. All health care providers who took CARES act funds have a significant incentive to diagnose a patient as having COVID so they can allocate expenses to their CARES act funds. Again, if they die, COVID will be listed.

So the argument that hospitals are not getting reimbursed for COVID deaths is technically true, but they have significant incentive to diagnose with COVID and there are a lot of people diagnosed with COVID that don't have a positive test and a lot of questionable test results. COVID doesn't get on the death certificate without a diagnosis. So.....

 

[dandeman330]

Summary of my post.

1. Hospitals are not directly reimbursed, paid, or incentivized for categorizing COVID as a cause of or contributing to death.
2. Hospitals have a significant incentive through enhanced reimbursement to diagnose a patient as having COVID. If they diagnose them with COVID and the die, COVID will be listed, as a minimum, as contributing to death (but no, not if they die in a car accident so don't read that into my statement)
3. All health care providers who took CARES act funds have a significant incentive to diagnose a patient as having COVID so they can allocate expenses to their CARES act funds. Again, if they die, COVID will be listed.

So the argument that hospitals are not getting reimbursed for COVID deaths is technically true, but they have significant incentive to diagnose with COVID and there are a lot of people diagnosed with COVID that don't have a positive test and a lot of questionable test results. COVID doesn't get on the death certificate without a diagnosis. So.....

I agree with everything you said that there are incentives for hospitals to diagnose patients with Covid to increase reimbursement rates but the total Covid deaths per the SCDHEC is actually less than the total deaths in 2020 less 2020 expected deaths. Now obviously there can be some variances but death rates over time are fairly constant. What would explain the overall increase in total deaths in 2020?

 

[BHSRebels89]

Yawn... Are there mistakes? You bet. Name ANYTHING that's big enough to be important, and you'll find mistakes. They are exceptions to the rule, not the norm. I'm sure there's someone who died of COVID that was marked as something else. Same thing.

Im no conspiracy theorist but do you think anyone accidentally gets cancer on their death certificate as COD? Im doubting it.

 

[pwjacks]

I agree with everything you said that there are incentives for hospitals to diagnose patients with Covid to increase reimbursement rates but the total Covid deaths per the SCDHEC is actually less than the total deaths in 2020 less 2020 expected deaths. Now obviously there can be some variances but death rates over time are fairly constant. What would explain the overall increase in total deaths in 2020?

Now this is my opinion, but I talk with multiple doctors and health care providers every day. I don't think this is as prevalent as it was a few months ago, but there were significant deaths from preventable conditions that were due to patients not seeking treatments. Heart attacks, strokes, diabetic complications, thrombosi (everywhere), trauma, etc. From March to May, one large hospital in SC had more patients present with ruptured appendix than they had in three years prior. I'm sure there were some folks that died at home or on hospice that had COVID and were never diagnosed and because they had a terminal condition, it wasn't counted, but I'm not it should have been anyway, but that's just water cooler talk. And I would bet there have a been a number of "pneumonia" deaths early on that were probably COVID. But most people that actually die of COVID have serious respiratory complications that require ICU level treatment. These folks aren't sitting in their lazy boy and just dying and no one knows why.

This doesn't take into account people that have a terminal or near terminal condition who die of that terminal condition but who may have also had COVID and it "contributed" to their death. The only person I directly know that has died had lupus and renal failure. Not to be crass, but she was one foot in the grave and COVID came along and kicked her in. She would have lived 3-12 months longer, but combine an auto-immune disorder and renal failure, COVID definitely contributed to and hastened her death.

 

[Hey Y'all]

Their is a $25,000.00 incentive for hospitals for Covid 19 related deaths.

 

[dandeman330]

Now this is my opinion, but I talk with multiple doctors and health care providers every day. I don't think this is as prevalent as it was a few months ago, but there were significant deaths from preventable conditions that were due to patients not seeking treatments. Heart attacks, strokes, diabetic complications, thrombosi (everywhere), trauma, etc. From March to May, one large hospital in SC had more patients present with ruptured appendix than they had in three years prior. I'm sure there were some folks that died at home or on hospice that had COVID and were never diagnosed and because they had a terminal condition, it wasn't counted, but I'm not it should have been anyway, but that's just water cooler talk. And I would bet there have a been a number of "pneumonia" deaths early on that were probably COVID. But most people that actually die of COVID have serious respiratory complications that require ICU level treatment. These folks aren't sitting in their lazy boy and just dying and no one knows why.

This doesn't take into account people that have a terminal or near terminal condition who die of that terminal condition but who may have also had COVID and it "contributed" to their death. The only person I directly know that has died had lupus and renal failure. Not to be crass, but she was one foot in the grave and COVID came along and kicked her in. She would have lived 3-12 months longer, but combine an auto-immune disorder and renal failure, COVID definitely contributed to and hastened her death.

I agree that there is an increase due to people failing to get proper care, increased suicide rates but you would also expect to see a decrease in the number of auto deaths due to people sheltering in place, not commuting etc.

Here are CDC totals for the 1st 31 weeks of the each of the years.

28,777 -2017

29,770 -2018

29,825 - 2019

34,320 -2020

That's a pretty large jump this year and currently SCDHEC is reporting roughly 2,100 deaths. Perhaps some of that increase could be attributed to the factors that you listed above but I think it's also possible that there are more unreported deaths than there are overreported/false covid deaths.

 

[dandeman330]

Their is a $25,000.00 incentive for hospitals for Covid 19 related deaths.

Who pays that incentive? Is it part of the CARES Act?

 

[tigerc]

Story of person died in a nursing home from a blow to the head after a fall. Death certificate- Covid

 

[pwjacks]

I agree that there is an increase due to people failing to get proper care, increased suicide rates but you would also expect to see a decrease in the number of auto deaths due to people sheltering in place, not commuting etc.

Here are CDC totals for the 1st 31 weeks of the each of the years.

28,777 -2017

29,770 -2018

29,825 - 2019

34,320 -2020

That's a pretty large jump this year and currently SCDHEC is reporting roughly 2,100 deaths. Perhaps some of that increase could be attributed to the factors that you listed above but I think it's also possible that there are more unreported deaths than there are overreported/false covid deaths.

I will honestly say I have no idea nor does anyone else. Most the evidence of either side is so anecdotal that it is comical that intelligent people are even talking about it. In normal circumstances, we wouldn't be. When a brittle diabetic gets a sever stomach virus and dies, we don't count that as a stomach virus death. Ultimately though, in my experience, when health care providers have a significant financial incentive to code a patient with a certain condition, most will do it if they can justify it (which they should) and some (a much larger number than you would think) will just flat out lie to get the money. Those Florida lab results were just fraud.

 

[CUFam98]

Summary of my post.

1. Hospitals are not directly reimbursed, paid, or incentivized for categorizing COVID as a cause of or contributing to death.
2. Hospitals have a significant incentive through enhanced reimbursement to diagnose a patient as having COVID. If they diagnose them with COVID and the die, COVID will be listed, as a minimum, as contributing to death (but no, not if they die in a car accident so don't read that into my statement)
3. All health care providers who took CARES act funds have a significant incentive to diagnose a patient as having COVID so they can allocate expenses to their CARES act funds. Again, if they die, COVID will be listed.

So the argument that hospitals are not getting reimbursed for COVID deaths is technically true, but they have significant incentive to diagnose with COVID and there are a lot of people diagnosed with COVID that don't have a positive test and a lot of questionable test results. COVID doesn't get on the death certificate without a diagnosis. So.....

Very good post. One thing I’ll add, the CARES Act funds don’t have to all be spent on “COVID care.” There is a lot of leeway. It can be spent on workforce/training, emergency operation centers, new facility for COVID (mobile units, reopening COVID only beds) and “lost revenue that are attributable to coronavirus.”

As much as volume fell in April and May, plus having to be fully staffed, no hospital will have to jimmy the numbers to spend CARES Act on paper.

The Medicare advanced payment is a different story. But that’s not limited to COVID.

 

[pwjacks]

Very good post. One thing I’ll add, the CARES Act funds don’t have to all be spent on “COVID care.” There is a lot of leeway. It can be spent on workforce/training, emergency operation centers, new facility for COVID (mobile units, reopening COVID only beds) and “lost revenue that are attributable to coronavirus.”

As much as volume fell in April and May, plus having to be fully staffed, no hospital will have to jimmy the numbers to spend CARES Act on paper.

The Medicare advanced payment is a different story. But that’s not limited to COVID.

Completely agree it doesn't have to be COVID care, but I disagree there is "a lot" of leeway. I've walked multiple providers who have tried to take that position and showed them the error of their thought process. There is leeway, but providers better be VERY VERY careful.

 

[fatpiggy]

Thank goodness you are the authority on this matter and settled that for everyone. It is utterly unthinkable that someone, particularly at a hospital, would fudge a document (that ultimately has no bearing on anything or anyone) solely for the purpose of getting a lot of money.

It was sarcasm. Certain posters on this board were telling me a couple weeks ago the numbers “were not up for debate” and I was trying to throw a little heat their way.