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OT: AHCA

Also, quick note here:

Donald Trump believes Obamacare is going to fail without changes. He also said, yesterday, that if his plan does the pass he is going to allow it to fail and then blame Democrats.

How could that possibly be acceptable to anyone?

He doesn't care about you and your family. He said it. He cares about scoring political points. He wants Obamacare to fail.

What the actual **** is wrong with him
I did NOT vote for Donald Trump. He's a reality show actor in the whithouse. However, he is absolutely correct that Obamacare would fail/collapse without intervention. The #s are not working out and are skyrocketing exponentially. Within 2 years, no one would be able to afford an ACA plan benefit without government intervention, which means higher taxes to pay for it. The choices are clear, you either move forward with it and spend more than the trillions forcasted or back off from it. There is no reason to persecute Trump over this. It would have happened no matter who was in office.
 
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Read this. It does not address the more fundamental issues of America lifestyles, healthcare expectations, litigation mentality or medical innovation, but it does address the cost issue. Also, I have a colleague in a Canadian affiliate who believes that the single fundamental cause of its poor health system is its population density or lack thereof. That's just one opinion, and no, I'm not going to research it, but I don't think anyone will deny that's it's system is a failure.

http://www.politicususa.com/2016/02...have-universal-healthcare-like-europeans.html

Thank you for providing a link. A few points, some of which have been mentioned by another poster.

1) The article mainly argues that it's not politically expedient to have a single payer system. That may be true (Republicans do a really good job of messaging) but that doesn't mean it's a good or bad idea.

2) The article assumed we'd have to have the exact same tax structure as the UK, which is some bizzaro false equivalency. As I cited earlier, the US pays $9,451 per capita in healthcare vs $4,003 in the UK. Their system is much cheaper. I concede that there are other factors driving healthcare costs and that we would not be able to replicate their expenditures just by going single payer. However, we know that we would save money by going single payer so I think we should do it and ALSO work on some of the other issues.

3) Canadians love their healthcare system, they'd hardly call it a failure. 82% said their system was better than the United States (Sorry, 2009 was the latest poll I could find). We also don't have to exactly mirror what Canada does. I'm down with benchmarking other systems and taking what is proven to work. I just think it's laughable that people ignore the evidence that's out there in favor of Universal Healthcare (be it by single payer or gov't supported mandatory private insurers).
 
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On a side note:

Airlines should charge a base fare (for the seat) with a base amount of weight built in oer person, body and luggage. Like 250 lbs. if your combined weight is less, you dont pay for your luggage. Why should my 155 lb frame pay the same as the 300 lb fatty next to me? He is consuming more gas to transport his ass.
are you rob spence or munson?
 
You weigh 155 pounds?
5'11" 155lb 31 inch waist 9% body fat.
250px-%27David%27_by_Michelangelo_JBU0001.JPG

That's for you Dixon
 
How could you possibly enforce this/determine ratings. And how do you choose what constitutes healthy choices?

Easy. Fat = pay more. Really fat = pay a lot more. Smoke = pay a lot more. Do drugs = pay more. Etc.

How do they determine ratings on life insurance? Weight, medical history and current status, smoker or not, driving record, age.

We shouldn't penalize the insured pool because some people are irresponsible or make bad choices. Let them pay for those choices. It might actually encourage healthier behavior.
 
Easy. Fat = pay more. Really fat = pay a lot more. Smoke = pay a lot more. Do drugs = pay more. Etc.

How do they determine ratings on life insurance? Weight, medical history and current status, smoker or not, driving record, age.

We shouldn't penalize the insured pool because some people are irresponsible or make bad choices. Let them pay for those choices. It might actually encourage healthier behavior.
theres other ways around it... like i don't know... taxing sugary drinks that make people fat cause adult diabetes. :)

make health care providers report weight at every appointment, setup system where it goes to insurance companies after visits.
 
theres other ways around it... like i don't know... taxing sugary drinks that make people fat cause adult diabetes. :)

make health care providers report weight at every appointment, setup system where it goes to insurance companies after visits.

It's just an exercise for actuaries. Identify the top 10 preventable drivers of healthcare costs (weight, smoking, etc. are just the obvious ones) and rate people accordingly. This isn't rocket science.

Those that are less of a burden on the system will pay less. Those that are a burden will pay more and will have a financial incentive to correct their behavior. People will pay their fair share, which will be properly correlated to their projected costs.
 
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theres other ways around it... like i don't know... taxing sugary drinks that make people fat cause adult diabetes. :)

make health care providers report weight at every appointment, setup system where it goes to insurance companies after visits.
I'm about as liberal as it gets, and that crosses the line. MDs cant be policemen. Gotta do it another way. But taxes on sugary drinks are a great start. And higher taxes on tobacco.
 
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Thank you for providing a link. A few points, some of which have been mentioned by another poster.

1) The article mainly argues that it's not politically expedient to have a single payer system. That may be true (Republicans do a really good job of messaging) but that doesn't mean it's a good or bad idea.

2) The article assumed we'd have to have the exact same tax structure as the UK, which is some bizzaro false equivalency. As I cited earlier, the US pays $9,451 per capita in healthcare vs $4,003 in the UK. Their system is much cheaper. I concede that there are other factors driving healthcare costs and that we would not be able to replicate their expenditures just by going single payer. However, we know that we would save money by going single payer so I think we should do it and ALSO work on some of the other issues.

3) Canadians love their healthcare system, they'd hardly call it a failure. 82% said their system was better than the United States (Sorry, 2009 was the latest poll I could find). We also don't have to exactly mirror what Canada does. I'm down with benchmarking other systems and taking what is proven to work. I just think it's laughable that people ignore the evidence that's out there in favor of Universal Healthcare (be it by single payer or gov't supported mandatory private insurers).
Good post. Glad to see you seem to be a little more open minded. Now I would ask that you look closer in the reasons for the difference in health care cost. Actually, Norway is the next most expensive to the US.

My whole point of all of these posts is to say that there are underlying factors in the US that have nothing to do with single payer or private payer distinctions that cause these differences, some of which require a change in Efficiency, some of which require a change in the US perception and demand of heath benefits and others that, frankly, I'm unwilling to support a change in.

Many believe (and I'm one of those) that the efficiency issue amounts to less rhan 20% of the factors causing US healthcare to be more expensive. However, regardless of the #, it is clear that there are other factors involved. Maybe we just need to agreed to disagree, because you will never convince me that a single payer system will cut our heathcare costs in half. And if you do try to do that by mandating costs on providers we will effectively kill medical innovation. There would also be a requirement of fundamental changes in care, such as not wasting medical care (or minimizing medical care) for the elderly, the disabled or the terminally ill. That simply is not the kind of society I want to live in, and I'm willing to pay a little extra in premiums to ensure that is not the case.

Also, the Canadian backlash has occurred within the last 3-4 years. I'll see if I can find somthing on that.
 
Most insurance companies have been charging higher priemiums if you smoke. Thing is, they define smoking as smoking just one cigarette, pipe, or cigar within the last 6 months.

And taxes are already high for cigaretts but I also don't like the government acting as police as to what people should or should not eat. I think that can become a slippery slope. NTM they will likely get it all wrong.
 
Good post. Glad to see you seem to be a little more open minded. Now I would ask that you look closer in the reasons for the difference in health care cost. Actually, Norway is the next most expensive to the US.

My whole point of all of these posts is to say that there are underlying factors in the US that have nothing to do with single payer or private payer distinctions that cause these differences, some of which require a change in Efficiency, some of which require a change in the US perception and demand of heath benefits and others that, frankly, I'm unwilling to support a change in.

Many believe (and I'm one of those) that the efficiency issue amounts to less rhan 20% of the factors causing US healthcare to be more expensive. However, regardless of the #, it is clear that there are other factors involved. Maybe we just need to agreed to disagree, because you will never convince me that a single payer system will cut our heathcare costs in half. And if you do try to do that by mandating costs on providers we will effectively kill medical innovation. There would also be a requirement of fundamental changes in care, such as not wasting medical care (or minimizing medical care) for the elderly, the disabled or the terminally ill. That simply is not the kind of society I want to live in, and I'm willing to pay a little extra in premiums to ensure that is not the case.

Also, the Canadian backlash has occurred within the last 3-4 years. I'll see if I can find somthing on that.

My point was that we should pursue it even if it doesn't halve our expenditures. It's a known improvement in cost (and the moral thing to do aside, but that's pretty subjective). If we can cut 20% of healthcare spending that's HUGE. Cutting 5% is still gigantic. Why leave it on the table, is all I'm saying.
 
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My point was that we should pursue it even if it doesn't halve our expenditures. It's a known improvement in cost (and the moral thing to do aside, but that's pretty subjective). If we can cut 20% of healthcare spending that's HUGE. Cutting 5% is still gigantic. Why leave it on the table, is all I'm saying.
Ok, but is it worth it. Let me give you a real life example, me. My father died of hear disease at age 59. I eat healthy and exercise regularly, but was still diagnosed with high cholesterol about 10 years ago. I take Lipitor daily and I hope that It will extend my life expectancy for an additional 10 - 15 years. What do you think the odds would be that Pfizer hires a guy named Bruce Roth to develop statin drugs if we had a single provider system where the provider has a monopoly to determine what drugs it will buy and how much it will pay. Without a competitive market, it's doubtful Pfizer even makes the investment to begin with. Also what about the equipment manufacturer that has an MRI machine that's operates more efficiently and twice as effectively. However, the single provider hospital can not afford it and has to respond "we are doing just fine with what we have." What about the medical doctor that works 60 hours a week, and makes less than his plumber. He barely made it through college but at least now he has a permanent job. Is that the person you want diagnosing you for care. I know these are extremes, but these are also the general consequences of socialism, and that's really what you are proposing, the socialism of health care. Again, I ask you, is it worth it to gain 5 or 10 percent.
 
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Ok, but is it worth it. Let me give you a real life example, me. My father died of hear disease at age 59. I eat healthy and exercise regularly, but was still diagnosed with high cholesterol about 10 years ago. I take Lipitor daily and I hope that It will extend my life expectancy for an additional 10 - 15 years. What do you think the odds would be that Pfizer hires a guy named Bruce Roth to develop statin drugs if we had a single provider system where the provider has a monopoly to determine what drugs it will buy and how much it will pay. Without a competitive market, it's doubtful Pfizer even makes the investment to begin with. Also what about the equipment manufacturer that has an MRI machine that's operates more efficiently and twice as effectively. However, the single provider hospital can run afford it and has to respond PR "we are doing just fine with what we have." What about the medical doctor that works 60 hours a week, and makes less than his plumber. He barely made it through college but at least now he has a permanent job. Is that the person you want diagnosing you for care. I know these are extremes, but these are also the general consequences of socialism, and that's really what you are proposing, the socialism of health care. Again, I ask you, is it worth it to gain 5 or 10 percent.
All very valid arguments. I would argue that it is worth it purely from a moral standpoint. But going back to your Lipitor example, I dont think we should keep the status quo just because of the threat of decreased innovation. Drug companies already are OVERinnovating. What I mean is this: do we really need 15 statins? I would argue absolutely not.
 
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Ok, but is it worth it. Let me give you a real life example, me. My father died of hear disease at age 59. I eat healthy and exercise regularly, but was still diagnosed with high cholesterol about 10 years ago. I take Lipitor daily and I hope that It will extend my life expectancy for an additional 10 - 15 years. What do you think the odds would be that Pfizer hires a guy named Bruce Roth to develop statin drugs if we had a single provider system where the provider has a monopoly to determine what drugs it will buy and how much it will pay. Without a competitive market, it's doubtful Pfizer even makes the investment to begin with. Also what about the equipment manufacturer that has an MRI machine that's operates more efficiently and twice as effectively. However, the single provider hospital can not afford it and has to respond "we are doing just fine with what we have." What about the medical doctor that works 60 hours a week, and makes less than his plumber. He barely made it through college but at least now he has a permanent job. Is that the person you want diagnosing you for care. I know these are extremes, but these are also the general consequences of socialism, and that's really what you are proposing, the socialism of health care. Again, I ask you, is it worth it to gain 5 or 10 percent.

I thank you for the reasonable discussion. I think we're coming to the end of what we can objectively talk about but I'll respond to a few points you have here. You are talking about a single provider system and I've been advocating a single payer system. I imagine that a single provider system would exemplify your concerns more than a single payer system would. I am not advocating state controlled hospitals, doctors, or drug companies. A single payer system probably would reduce doctor's wages, true. It probably would do some to stifle innovation, true. There's good data out there about how little innovation there actually is within pharmaceuticals (lots of new drugs are only marginal improvements over their predecessors and I don't think we should be incentivizing drug companies to be focusing their efforts there over other items). Truly novel treatments would still be pursued because they'd still be needed. There would still be a payback for that and our single payer system would be willing to pay a reasonable price for these. Regardless, if the US's pharma industry becomes less profitable other country's companies would step up some because it would be relatively more profitable for them to do so (invisible hand, etc).

So, while I appreciate your concerns, I think they are overstated (not wrong) and worth it. I think that we could do a lot to improve the situation of doctors (subsidize medschool, stop artificially limiting the supply of doctors). I think that a single payer system with optional private insurance is the way to go. Make sure everybody has their critical needs covered in a more cost effective manner and let those who can afford to pay for better and/or "unnecessary" procedures.
 
What if maxed the amount of contribution a family has to pay for healthcare insurance? Say 7 percent for a household. If you can get insurance for less than 7 percent of your household income then there is no government assistance. Everyone contributes. What do libs think?
 
What if maxed the amount of contribution a family has to pay for healthcare insurance? Say 7 percent for a household. If you can get insurance for less than 7 percent of your household income then there is no government assistance. Everyone contributes. What do libs think?
don't quite understand what you are trying to say here... many many households spend more than 7% of their income on health care. for medium to low income household healtcare probably represents 20% of their annual spending.
 
I did NOT vote for Donald Trump. He's a reality show actor in the whithouse. However, he is absolutely correct that Obamacare would fail/collapse without intervention. The #s are not working out and are skyrocketing exponentially. Within 2 years, no one would be able to afford an ACA plan benefit without government intervention, which means higher taxes to pay for it. The choices are clear, you either move forward with it and spend more than the trillions forcasted or back off from it. There is no reason to persecute Trump over this. It would have happened no matter who was in office.

you missed the point, and proved mine, at the same time. If ObamaCare is going to fail, and bankrupt our country, then the logical next step is to seek to fix it. instead. trump is just going to let it happen, regardless of how it will impact our nation, or the people who rely on it for coverage. all to prove a point. he is LITERALLY playing political games with people's lives.
 
don't quite understand what you are trying to say here... many many households spend more than 7% of their income on health care. for medium to low income household healtcare probably represents 20% of their annual spending.

I know and 20 percent is waaay too much. Not saying 7 percent is the magic number, but it's not a major issue if the cost can be somewhat controlled. Health insurance was never meant to rival your house payment.
 
I know and 20 percent is waaay too much. Not saying 7 percent is the magic number, but it's not a major issue if the cost can be somewhat controlled. Health insurance was never meant to rival your house payment.

median household income in the US is 57K... 7% of that is 4000.

4000k is nothing... average PERSON spends 10K per year on care.

my wife and I are in our early 30s... no conditions, no prescriptions, no kids, not pregnant, and we spent about 3-4 k last year. (cost of care, not coverage, our coverage cost about 8K, which we are glad to pay because we might discover we need 200K in surgery someday) if half of america can get family healthcare for 7% of their income then it will mean a massive tax on the rest of america.
 
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I thank you for the reasonable discussion. I think we're coming to the end of what we can objectively talk about but I'll respond to a few points you have here. You are talking about a single provider system and I've been advocating a single payer system. I imagine that a single provider system would exemplify your concerns more than a single payer system would. I am not advocating state controlled hospitals, doctors, or drug companies. A single payer system probably would reduce doctor's wages, true. It probably would do some to stifle innovation, true. There's good data out there about how little innovation there actually is within pharmaceuticals (lots of new drugs are only marginal improvements over their predecessors and I don't think we should be incentivizing drug companies to be focusing their efforts there over other items). Truly novel treatments would still be pursued because they'd still be needed. There would still be a payback for that and our single payer system would be willing to pay a reasonable price for these. Regardless, if the US's pharma industry becomes less profitable other country's companies would step up some because it would be relatively more profitable for them to do so (invisible hand, etc).

So, while I appreciate your concerns, I think they are overstated (not wrong) and worth it. I think that we could do a lot to improve the situation of doctors (subsidize medschool, stop artificially limiting the supply of doctors). I think that a single payer system with optional private insurance is the way to go. Make sure everybody has their critical needs covered in a more cost effective manner and let those who can afford to pay for better and/or "unnecessary" procedures.
I agree, but I don't make a distinction between a single provider or payer since whoever controls the purse strings controls the provider. I know there have been studies done years ago to show projections, but I can't find any now. Here is how i would see it, not based on data. Assuming improvements in efficiency amount to 10%, you still have to cover an additional 20mil participants. Assuming that cost is a 25% increase, the net is still a 15% increase to healthcare that is already the highest in the world. Given that this increase ls likely unacceptable, a single payer can just tell the providers that they have to tighten their belt. For example, the gov could just tell hospitals that in order to participate you have to cut costs by 10%. Providers have no choice and will comply, but they cut costs by cutting services (less nurses, less available hours etc). After 3-5 years or so, inefficiencies mount due to single provider burocracy and lack of competition in additional to medical inflation. Let's assume costs have increased by 20%. Just like the electrical power industry the semi-monopoly providers lobby the government to increase rates. Again as a single payer the government can say, no. Let's assume here a 3.5% per year increase is granted over 2 years. So, costs have increased 30% over a 5 year period, but revenue has increased by only 13%. The result is a continued reduction in services at this point private hospitals and supplemental plans start to pop up. After that , we begin to notice fewer new drugs on the market and fewer innovations in heath care. Just today I read a report where the UK has acknowledged that it's limiting knee and hip replacements based on pai thresholds. That is, if you are not in enough pain, you are not going to get that hip or knee replacement you need.

It's just my opinion, but I believe that without fundamental change in the way we (uS citizens) drive Heath care, simply moving to a single payer system is a recipe for disaster as far as the quality of care is concerned. The economics will drive the quality of care down. It also will ultimately cost more for the middle class that will carry the burden of covering currently uninsured and ultimately lead to the stagnation of medical innovation in this country. So, yea, right now I think it's a bad idea.
 
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You left out a number of reasons why health care cost are so high in the US. Sure, medical inflation is high, but there are many reasons. Medical malpractice insurance is high and that cost is passed to the consumer, but that's a minor cost compared to other reasons. I agree with you that the ACA would ultimately be a governmental burden, but it hadn't gotten there yet and ultimately that would not directly relate to higher heath costs, but higher taxes. My fear was that the ACA would implode resulting in a single provider and socialzed health care.

So why is healthcare so expensive and why can't we just follow other countries?

First, US mandatory Heath care. No hospital can deny health care for someone who is not insured. They can't turn you away. Have you been in an emergency room lately? You will see tons of people there being treated for a cold ...because it's free at least to a majority of the patients. This cost is transferred to the purchasers of insurance, you and me. However, do you want this to go away. If my son is on a camping trip and is injured, I want him to have immediate care. I don't want him waiting around to ensure his insurance card is valid

Second, medical innovation. Yes, those things that save our lives sometimes. It's those neat MRI machines, those new laser surgery machines, new innovation in cancer treatment, new designer drugs (half the population is on statins now, but no one even knew what they were in the 80s). All these great things that heal us ang give us longer life span that are invented somewhere and a lot of that occurs in the US. Until they become generic these items cost a premium. That's so the med manuf and drug companies can recoup its costs and profi off of its investment. These innovation costs are passed on to the consumer. Unlike most other countries, the us is a leader in medical innovation. One of my biggest fears of socialized medicine is the elimination of medical innovation. Why design a drug that cures cancer if you are not going to make $ off of it or hire scientists who might be able to make a cure for cancer if you don't see a profit in it or why make a better MRI if there is no one willing to pay for it. I for one don't want to see innovation in medicine stagnated at all.

Third, the US social attitude toward healthcare. Suppose you mother or wife is sick. You take her to a hospital and demand the best treatment possible be given to her. Cost is no object. You want the best surgeon, the best and latest equipment and the best treatment. Cost is never an issue for anyone in the USif we need care, regardless of age or socioeconomic status. We demand it, no questions asked. When was the last time you heard someone say, I'm in my 70s and I need cancer treatment but the doctors say my life expectancy is not that king anyway, so it's not worth the couple hundred grad it would otherwise cost. We don't look at health care that way. We spare no expense from the richest to the poorest for even one day of additional life. I like that and, again, it's a concern with socialized medicine, but someone has to pay for it. It's one of the reasons why individuals in countries with socialized medicine buy seperatevor supplemental policies. In effect, the rich get quality care and the poor don't.

My point in all of this is that there is no real easy answer from either a liberal or conservative view. The only way to really change this in an overhauling significant manner is to change the way we citizens view healthcare in the US, and I, for one, am not willing to accept many of those changes. And for those that want to nationalize healthcare, I suggest you think again because you might get what you wish for.
Another issue is the US subsidizes Prescription Drug costs for other countries. Certain drugs are more expensive here because other countries limit the amount the drug company can charge in their . Drug companies are free to charge whatever they can get as a result we pay higher rates effectively subsidizing the cost of the medicine for other countries.

n the market so they ask for higher price here.
 
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Another issue is the US subsidizes Prescription Drug costs for other countries. Certain drugs are more expensive here because other countries limit the amount the drug company can charge in their . Drug companies are free to charge whatever they can get as a result we pay higher rates effectively subsidizing the cost of the medicine for other countries.
much bigger issue than medical malpractice... medical malpractice is a big boogeyman for conservatives but it really doesn't contribute very much to the overall cost of healthcare... and a large percentage of medical malpractice cost is justified (not due to tort or fraud)
 
you missed the point, and proved mine, at the same time. If ObamaCare is going to fail, and bankrupt our country, then the logical next step is to seek to fix it. instead. trump is just going to let it happen, regardless of how it will impact our nation, or the people who rely on it for coverage. all to prove a point. he is LITERALLY playing political games with people's lives.
Neither Obama nor Trump would let it fail and, believe me, the country is not going to fold in the next 12 months. If you heard that, it's just rhetoric. Trump wants to repeal the ACA, but he can't do that completely unless the democratic conceded. He can still effectively do what he wants by changing the law, but he has budget constraints to consider. There is going to be no failing of the gov. One way or another he will make his changes. If Clinton were elected she would likely have fixed it. Probably by implementing a single payer system for individuals (i.e. Force individuals to purchase coverage through an ACA plan). That would have been a heady move and the second step to socialized healthcare. Naturally, Trump is not going to do that. He's going to take the opposite approach, which is to appeal r amend p it and eliminate the mandates and and give subsidies to the elderly. In either case, the world is not going to collapse. He's also going to preserve the pre-existing condition exclusion, so the fact that you have diabetes should no affect your premium.

So the ACA plans are going away, but there were better plans on the market anyway. I don't know your personal situation, but I'd guess that it's not going to significantly affect your personal situation one way or another.
 
Another issue is the US subsidizes Prescription Drug costs for other countries. Certain drugs are more expensive here because other countries limit the amount the drug company can charge in their . Drug companies are free to charge whatever they can get as a result we pay higher rates effectively subsidizing the cost of the medicine for other countries.

n the market so they ask for higher price here.
Agree. This is part of the medical innovation issue. We would not have these great drugs if we had a single payer that limited the amount that could be charged for the drug. They would not be invented in the first place.
 
median household income in the US is 57K... 7% of that is 4000.

4000k is nothing... average PERSON spends 10K per year on care.

my wife and I are in our early 30s... no conditions, no prescriptions, no kids, not pregnant, and we spent about 3-4 k last year. (cost of care, not coverage, our coverage cost about 8K, which we are glad to pay because we might discover we need 200K in surgery someday) if half of america can get family healthcare for 7% of their income then it will mean a massive tax on the rest of america.

Give me a plan that has been proposed that will not do this?

My personal opinion is that Rand Paul's plan was the best. But it will never get enough votes b/c of how many people will lose their insurance. I love the idea of shopping for group insurance plans (that can cross state boundaries by the way). But there are always going to be people who are going to get left out. And the MSM is going to let America know about the poor people who will be left out. And it will be used in a way that will make the Republicans seem heartless.

There is not a plan that will cover every American and not create a massive tax on America.
 
Neither Obama nor Trump would let it fail and, believe me, the country is not going to fold in the next 12 months. If you heard that, it's just rhetoric. Trump wants to repeal the ACA, but he can't do that completely unless the democratic conceded. He can still effectively do what he wants by changing the law, but he has budget constraints to consider. There is going to be no failing of the gov. One way or another he will make his changes. If Clinton were elected she would likely have fixed it. Probably by implementing a single payer system for individuals (i.e. Force individuals to purchase coverage through an ACA plan). That would have been a heady move and the second step to socialized healthcare. Naturally, Trump is not going to do that. He's going to take the opposite approach, which is to appeal r amend p it and eliminate the mandates and and give subsidies to the elderly. In either case, the world is not going to collapse. He's also going to preserve the pre-existing condition exclusion, so the fact that you have diabetes should no affect your premium.

So the ACA plans are going away, but there were better plans on the market anyway. I don't know your personal situation, but I'd guess that it's not going to significantly affect your personal situation one way or another.

I'm a type 2 diabetic who's jobs don't always provide healthcare, so it's likely to have a major impact on my family and I. We've budgeted 1.5k per month for healthcare for the three of us.

And to be clear, I'm not overweight, and my diabetes is genetic.

Finally. Why not take him at his word?
 
I'm a type 2 diabetic who's jobs don't always provide healthcare, so it's likely to have a major impact on my family and I. We've budgeted 1.5k per month for healthcare for the three of us.

And to be clear, I'm not overweight, and my diabetes is genetic.

Finally. Why not take him at his word?

You're supposed to take him seriously but not literally, Ice. Unless it's about a wall or a Muslim ban. Then he was both.
 
Give me a plan that has been proposed that will not do this?

My personal opinion is that Rand Paul's plan was the best. But it will never get enough votes b/c of how many people will lose their insurance. I love the idea of shopping for group insurance plans (that can cross state boundaries by the way). But there are always going to be people who are going to get left out. And the MSM is going to let America know about the poor people who will be left out. And it will be used in a way that will make the Republicans seem heartless.

There is not a plan that will cover every American and not create a massive tax on America.
i'm just saying 7% is way to low a cap... if middle income americans want to reproduce and have high income ameicans pay for their medical bills then i have no problem with middle income americans paying 15-20% of their take home income towards health care.

what i'd really like is prebate type HSAs and actually give everyone in this country a stake in controlling their cost of care.
 
i'm just saying 7% is way to low a cap... if middle income americans want to reproduce and have high income ameicans pay for their medical bills then i have no problem with middle income americans paying 15-20% of their take home income towards health care.

what i'd really like is prebate type HSAs and actually give everyone in this country a stake in controlling their cost of care.
You've made some great point. What you're missing is the intelligence level of most Americans. I work in a hospital and see people that can barely sign their names every day. I have to teach people how to take their meds multiple times. Do you think much of America is able to navigate an HSA? I think not.
 
Please someone hir me in the head with a 2x4 if I ever comment about healthcare legislation on this board again. Thank you in advance.
 
Please someone hir me in the head with a 2x4 if I ever comment about healthcare legislation on this board again. Thank you in advance.

Why, I thought we played quite nice together. :)
 
CBB should be fired. not many CBB apologists left on the board. Am curious to see if anyone can come up with a good argument for obamacarelite, or the AHCA?

Seriously. nobody is happy about this thing. democrats hate it. most conservatives think it doesnt go far enough. AARP came out against it. In my state, 7 rural hospitals are going to close, forcing literally hundreds of thousands to travel across treacherous mountain passes to get health care. It will also cost thousands of jobs in the healthcare industry in Colorado. Hospital CEOS are against it, medical research companies are against it, patient advocacy groups are against it, and doctors groups are starting to come out against. There is almost nobody attached to our healthcare system that thinks this is a good idea.

As a diabetic, I know this is going to be a disaster for me, and add at least 1k a month in costs for testing supplies and/or increased premium's, even though, study after study after study tells us that low-cost testing supplies and insulin drive down long-term costs significantly and improve health outcomes.

And sure, if you dont ever want to buy insurance, you no longer have to, but, instead, if you dont want to buy insurance for a year, then you want it next year, youll have to pay a massive penalty, and not to the federal government, but to health insurance companies.

They couldnt even come up with a real new name, and they know how popular the ACA is, so all they did was add an H? This is insanity.

they are going to give credits to EVERYONE, with no need or means testing. Do you seriously believe that 30 year old CEO making $3,000,000 per year should get the exact same subsidy as a 30 year old making $14,000. How does that make any sense at all.

Who likes this thing?

EDIT: and holy crap. if you are an old person on a fixed budget, or a poor old person, you are totally ****ed. AARP estimates that a senior earning 15k a year could see a 8000 premium increase as a result of the loss of sliding scale subsidies, and the new allowable ratio of premiums going up from 3-1 to 5-1. How is that acceptable to anyone?
AARP benefitted from Oama crap. They won't with the new HC. I
I did NOT vote for Donald Trump. He's a reality show actor in the whithouse. However, he is absolutely correct that Obamacare would fail/collapse without intervention. The #s are not working out and are skyrocketing exponentially. Within 2 years, no one would be able to afford an ACA plan benefit without government intervention, which means higher taxes to pay for it. The choices are clear, you either move forward with it and spend more than the trillions forcasted or back off from it. There is no reason to persecute Trump over this. It would have happened no matter who was in office.

You are correct. There is so much ignorance in this thread about Obamashit it would make me look like a fvcking genius. I'm not.

It killed jobs, it lowered incomes and xiuld go on but the Libtards wiuld stroke out. We don't need anymore brain dead folks procreating
 
All very valid arguments. I would argue that it is worth it purely from a moral standpoint. But going back to your Lipitor example, I dont think we should keep the status quo just because of the threat of decreased innovation. Drug companies already are OVERinnovating. What I mean is this: do we really need 15 statins? I would argue absolutely not.
Sorry, I missed your comment. I can't respond to it since I promised myself I wouldn't. .... but I want to.
 
Why, I thought we played quite nice together. :)
It's not about you. I've enjoyed it. It's just that I have to discuss this kind of stuff (less philosophical and more specific) at work all the time and I don't want to bring it to one of my simple pleasures of discussing Clemson sports. Plus, I've spent way too much time responding.
 
Sorry, I missed your comment. I can't respond to it since I promised myself I wouldn't. .... but I want to.
Why, I thought we played quite nice together. :)
i'm just saying 7% is way to low a cap... if middle income americans want to reproduce and have high income ameicans pay for their medical bills then i have no problem with middle income americans paying 15-20% of their take home income towards health care.

what i'd really like is prebate type HSAs and actually give everyone in this country a stake in controlling their cost of care.
I'm a type 2 diabetic who's jobs don't always provide healthcare, so it's likely to have a major impact on my family and I. We've budgeted 1.5k per month for healthcare for the three of us.

And to be clear, I'm not overweight, and my diabetes is genetic.

Finally. Why not take him at his word?
I think this was the calmest political thread with the best exchange of ideas I have ever seen on TI (minus @tigerGUY's dumbass comments, but he cant help it, cause he's a dumbass). I enjoyed it.
 
The article you linked is from over 25 years ago and the ACA tried to address this with the 80/20 rule meaning only 20% of premiums can go to administrative cost. This sounds great to policy wonks, but the big insurers are not set up to thrive under this model because they do not aggressively negotiate prices and create narrow networks, a la Kaiser and Molina. They were designed to appeal to companies who want to provide access to the majority of the doctors in their region and have comprehensive benefits.

I found this Bloomberg article that says pretty much the exactly same thing...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...alth-care-is-so-expensive-insurance-companies
Conspiracy theorists, can't live with them, can't live with them.

I love this.
#PizzaGate-no conspiracy
Birther movement-no conspiracy
Wiretaps with no evidence, Russia-no conspiracy
Health Insurance companies making off like bandits? Conspiracy.
 
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