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OT- Conservatives and their big government...

I think this is an important debate for us to have in the United States. There's a lot that's been lost in translation over time with respect to the Constitution as we continually seek to parse language to mean things that aren't necessarily there. The best tools we have are to go behind the curtain and see what went on during the debate in those days.

First a look at the 14th Amendment:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

The principle debate deals with "subject to the jurisdiction" and what that means. In 1866 when asked about this, Senator Lyman Trumbull (D-IL), Chairman of the Judiciary Committee (and a key figure in the drafting and adoption of the 14th Amendment) was asked what the phrase “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof” meant, he responded: “That means ‘subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof.’ What do we mean by ‘complete jurisdiction thereof’? Not owing allegiance to anyone else. That is what it means.”

The guiding principle behind the 14th Amendment was to correct the repugnant Dred Scott v. Sandford decision (1857) and recognize citizenship for the freed slaves. The verbiage in the Citizenship Clause was derived from the Civil Rights Act of 1866, enacted by the same legislators (the 39th Congress) who framed the 14th Amendment. The Civil Rights Act of 1866 conferred citizenship on “All persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed.” (Emphasis added.) Foreign nationals resident in the United States, and children who become citizens of a foreign country at birth would obviously be excluded from this definition.

In response to what Trumbull said, Senator Jacob Howard (R-MI), stated that its language “is simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already,” explaining that “This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, [or] who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers...I concur entirely with the honorable Senator from Illinois [Trumbull], in holding that the word “jurisdiction,” as here employed, ought to be construed so as to imply a full and complete jurisdiction on the part of the United States, . . . ; that is to say, the same jurisdiction in extent and quality as applies to every citizen of the United States now."

The United States Supreme Court has never fully ruled on this matter. My opinion is that we need that and then we can decide as a nation what we think is the right path. In either case, a person born to people here on a Green Card or some sort of legal residency would not be what is considered an "anchor baby." They fall under the jurisdiction of the United States and their legal status would follow that of their parents. What if they were here on a work Visa, had a child that was automatically deemed a US Citizen and then wished to return to their country of origin only to find their child was not allowed there because he/she wasn't a citizen of said nation? There's a lot of complexity here that requires a genuine dialogue. What someone thinks of Trump has nothing to do with this. This is a question for our future and the person who is President during this is irrelevant. That's the great thing about the United States. What we do is of the people and therefore not subject to the whims of a President no matter how much we may like or dislike that person.

Hat tip to Mark Pulliam for the sourcing of some of what I posted.
 
Simply come here the legal way or don't come. Hard for some to figure out I guess.
Yeah, it’s just that simple! Why don’t the people fleeing terrible conditions in third world countries to try and make a better life for themselves and their families understand that!
 
Yeah, it’s just that simple! Why don’t the people fleeing terrible conditions in third world countries to try and make a better life for themselves and their families understand that!

Nobody said they couldn’t come. Just do it legally. We have millions of immigrants who are now citizens that did it the right (legal) way. I don’t understand the attitude of some people (nor saying you) that think it’s okay for someone to enter a country of laws by breaking a law entering illegally. I’m all for the American Dream and accepting immigrants. Black, white, green, blue, atheist, Jew, Muslim, etc. Just do it lawfully. A plan to rush a country’s border in mass and forcefully enter It is not the way to be accepted. Do the proper paperwork, come here legally, pay taxes and live the “American Dream”!
 
Yeah, it’s just that simple! Why don’t the people fleeing terrible conditions in third world countries to try and make a better life for themselves and their families understand that!

The law is the law. If you want to break that, fine. Have your lawlessness, I really don’t care either way
 
I think this is an important debate for us to have in the United States. There's a lot that's been lost in translation over time with respect to the Constitution as we continually seek to parse language to mean things that aren't necessarily there. The best tools we have are to go behind the curtain and see what went on during the debate in those days.

First a look at the 14th Amendment:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

The principle debate deals with "subject to the jurisdiction" and what that means. In 1866 when asked about this, Senator Lyman Trumbull (D-IL), Chairman of the Judiciary Committee (and a key figure in the drafting and adoption of the 14th Amendment) was asked what the phrase “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof” meant, he responded: “That means ‘subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof.’ What do we mean by ‘complete jurisdiction thereof’? Not owing allegiance to anyone else. That is what it means.”

The guiding principle behind the 14th Amendment was to correct the repugnant Dred Scott v. Sandford decision (1857) and recognize citizenship for the freed slaves. The verbiage in the Citizenship Clause was derived from the Civil Rights Act of 1866, enacted by the same legislators (the 39th Congress) who framed the 14th Amendment. The Civil Rights Act of 1866 conferred citizenship on “All persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed.” (Emphasis added.) Foreign nationals resident in the United States, and children who become citizens of a foreign country at birth would obviously be excluded from this definition.

In response to what Trumbull said, Senator Jacob Howard (R-MI), stated that its language “is simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already,” explaining that “This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, [or] who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers...I concur entirely with the honorable Senator from Illinois [Trumbull], in holding that the word “jurisdiction,” as here employed, ought to be construed so as to imply a full and complete jurisdiction on the part of the United States, . . . ; that is to say, the same jurisdiction in extent and quality as applies to every citizen of the United States now."

The United States Supreme Court has never fully ruled on this matter. My opinion is that we need that and then we can decide as a nation what we think is the right path. In either case, a person born to people here on a Green Card or some sort of legal residency would not be what is considered an "anchor baby." They fall under the jurisdiction of the United States and their legal status would follow that of their parents. What if they were here on a work Visa, had a child that was automatically deemed a US Citizen and then wished to return to their country of origin only to find their child was not allowed there because he/she wasn't a citizen of said nation? There's a lot of complexity here that requires a genuine dialogue. What someone thinks of Trump has nothing to do with this. This is a question for our future and the person who is President during this is irrelevant. That's the great thing about the United States. What we do is of the people and therefore not subject to the whims of a President no matter how much we may like or dislike that person.

Hat tip to Mark Pulliam for the sourcing of some of what I posted.

Very interesting. I had never given the 14th much thought.

Thanks for posting have a new rabbit hole to go down.
 
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Nobody said they couldn’t come. Just do it legally. We have millions of immigrants who are now citizens that did it the right (legal) way. I don’t understand the attitude of some people (nor saying you) that think it’s okay for someone to enter a country of laws by breaking a law entering illegally. I’m all for the American Dream and accepting immigrants. Black, white, green, blue, atheist, Jew, Muslim, etc. Just do it lawfully. A plan to rush a country’s border in mass and forcefully enter It is not the way to be accepted. Do the proper paperwork, come here legally, pay taxes and live the “American Dream”!
I agree. I think it’d be perfect if everyone who came here was able to do so legally.

But I also think that’s an easy thing to say when you’ve never lived in a situation where breaking the immigration laws of another country is the best Option you have for a better life.

I just roll my eyes at those who pretend this isn’t a very complex issue not only for the US but for the people who are coming here.
 
I agree. I think it’d be perfect if everyone who came here was able to do so legally.

But I also think that’s an easy thing to say when you’ve never lived in a situation where breaking the immigration laws of another country is the best Option you have for a better life.

I just roll my eyes at those who pretend this isn’t a very complex issue not only for the US but for the people who are coming here.

I get it. It does come across as hypocritical for someone who was never in their situation personally to speak on it but we are a country of laws and I can tell you what would happen to me by breaking a law and it isn’t being granted citizenship to the greatest country in the world. The world sucks and I get it. Great Grandparents immigrated here legally from Scotland. Dirt poor, worked on a farm their entire lives, paid taxes and lived the American Dream as a result. It wasn’t easy for them to get to America nor was it glamorous but they did it the right way and as a result I live the dream every damn day. There is not 100% perfect answer to immigration but people acting like it’s okay or smart to have open borders are delusional. I as an American citizen have to obey the law in its entirety or be subject to its punishment. Just because they come from a bad situation doesn’t give them free reign to enter this country.
 
I think this is an important debate for us to have in the United States. There's a lot that's been lost in translation over time with respect to the Constitution as we continually seek to parse language to mean things that aren't necessarily there. The best tools we have are to go behind the curtain and see what went on during the debate in those days.

First a look at the 14th Amendment:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

The principle debate deals with "subject to the jurisdiction" and what that means. In 1866 when asked about this, Senator Lyman Trumbull (D-IL), Chairman of the Judiciary Committee (and a key figure in the drafting and adoption of the 14th Amendment) was asked what the phrase “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof” meant, he responded: “That means ‘subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof.’ What do we mean by ‘complete jurisdiction thereof’? Not owing allegiance to anyone else. That is what it means.”

The guiding principle behind the 14th Amendment was to correct the repugnant Dred Scott v. Sandford decision (1857) and recognize citizenship for the freed slaves. The verbiage in the Citizenship Clause was derived from the Civil Rights Act of 1866, enacted by the same legislators (the 39th Congress) who framed the 14th Amendment. The Civil Rights Act of 1866 conferred citizenship on “All persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed.” (Emphasis added.) Foreign nationals resident in the United States, and children who become citizens of a foreign country at birth would obviously be excluded from this definition.

In response to what Trumbull said, Senator Jacob Howard (R-MI), stated that its language “is simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already,” explaining that “This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, [or] who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers...I concur entirely with the honorable Senator from Illinois [Trumbull], in holding that the word “jurisdiction,” as here employed, ought to be construed so as to imply a full and complete jurisdiction on the part of the United States, . . . ; that is to say, the same jurisdiction in extent and quality as applies to every citizen of the United States now."

The United States Supreme Court has never fully ruled on this matter. My opinion is that we need that and then we can decide as a nation what we think is the right path. In either case, a person born to people here on a Green Card or some sort of legal residency would not be what is considered an "anchor baby." They fall under the jurisdiction of the United States and their legal status would follow that of their parents. What if they were here on a work Visa, had a child that was automatically deemed a US Citizen and then wished to return to their country of origin only to find their child was not allowed there because he/she wasn't a citizen of said nation? There's a lot of complexity here that requires a genuine dialogue. What someone thinks of Trump has nothing to do with this. This is a question for our future and the person who is President during this is irrelevant. That's the great thing about the United States. What we do is of the people and therefore not subject to the whims of a President no matter how much we may like or dislike that person.

Hat tip to Mark Pulliam for the sourcing of some of what I posted.

Perfect response and well said.
 
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It is also worthy of mention that our friends on the left love to say with respect to other debates that we need to get with the rest of the modern world on things. Well the vast majority of the modern world doesn't recognize jus soli or "birthright citizenship."

Many of the nations that do have this in place are now reconsidering this status or already in the process of removing it. It's a recipe for massive problems and there are better ways to handle things.
 
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I think this is an important debate for us to have in the United States. There's a lot that's been lost in translation over time with respect to the Constitution as we continually seek to parse language to mean things that aren't necessarily there. The best tools we have are to go behind the curtain and see what went on during the debate in those days.

First a look at the 14th Amendment:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

The principle debate deals with "subject to the jurisdiction" and what that means. In 1866 when asked about this, Senator Lyman Trumbull (D-IL), Chairman of the Judiciary Committee (and a key figure in the drafting and adoption of the 14th Amendment) was asked what the phrase “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof” meant, he responded: “That means ‘subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof.’ What do we mean by ‘complete jurisdiction thereof’? Not owing allegiance to anyone else. That is what it means.”

The guiding principle behind the 14th Amendment was to correct the repugnant Dred Scott v. Sandford decision (1857) and recognize citizenship for the freed slaves. The verbiage in the Citizenship Clause was derived from the Civil Rights Act of 1866, enacted by the same legislators (the 39th Congress) who framed the 14th Amendment. The Civil Rights Act of 1866 conferred citizenship on “All persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed.” (Emphasis added.) Foreign nationals resident in the United States, and children who become citizens of a foreign country at birth would obviously be excluded from this definition.

In response to what Trumbull said, Senator Jacob Howard (R-MI), stated that its language “is simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already,” explaining that “This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, [or] who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers...I concur entirely with the honorable Senator from Illinois [Trumbull], in holding that the word “jurisdiction,” as here employed, ought to be construed so as to imply a full and complete jurisdiction on the part of the United States, . . . ; that is to say, the same jurisdiction in extent and quality as applies to every citizen of the United States now."

The United States Supreme Court has never fully ruled on this matter. My opinion is that we need that and then we can decide as a nation what we think is the right path. In either case, a person born to people here on a Green Card or some sort of legal residency would not be what is considered an "anchor baby." They fall under the jurisdiction of the United States and their legal status would follow that of their parents. What if they were here on a work Visa, had a child that was automatically deemed a US Citizen and then wished to return to their country of origin only to find their child was not allowed there because he/she wasn't a citizen of said nation? There's a lot of complexity here that requires a genuine dialogue. What someone thinks of Trump has nothing to do with this. This is a question for our future and the person who is President during this is irrelevant. That's the great thing about the United States. What we do is of the people and therefore not subject to the whims of a President no matter how much we may like or dislike that person.

Hat tip to Mark Pulliam for the sourcing of some of what I posted.
Republicans control everything. They should have changed it. Now they are going to side with big government to do it for them.
 
Republicans control everything. They should have changed it. Now they are going to side with big government to do it for them.

You aren't real good at civics are you? We must have a ruling from scotus on the 14th amendment first. You can't make laws that counter the US Constitution. Only leftists can get away with circumventing or manipulating the Constitution anyway. Thankfully we have a more sensible court now to stop that overreach.
 
You aren't real good at civics are you? We must have a ruling from scotus on the 14th amendment first. You can't make laws that counter the US Constitution. Only leftists can get away with circumventing or manipulating the Constitution anyway. Thankfully we have a more sensible court now to stop that overreach.
Whatever makes you sleep at night bud. The way I see it is it’s a two player race to big government and the GOP is currently in the lead.
 
Whatever makes you sleep at night bud. The way I see it is it’s a two player race to big government and the GOP is currently in the lead.

I don't disagree there. I wish it were different but you are 100% correct about that. It's just a matter of process with this particular issue.
 
I don't disagree there. I wish it were different but you are 100% correct about that. It's just a matter of process with this particular issue.
Yes. And the “process” sides with how liberals believe government works. I’m okay with getting rid of birthright. I’m not okay with Donald creating another example for the Dems to reference when they do the same.
 
Yes. And the “process” sides with how liberals believe government works. I’m okay with getting rid of birthright. I’m not okay with Donald creating another example for the Dems to reference when they do the same.

Out of curiosity, how does it side with how liberals believe government works?
 
Rule by pen. Obama was the best at it.

Oh! That isn't why Trump is doing what he is. There's no other way to force a court battle over this issue so that SCOTUS will have to eventually rule on this matter. Any executive order will never go into effect and they all know this.
 
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