OT: How do you justify separating children from their parents?

[orangelvis]

You aint sure what the lie was? The lie was that it wasn't his fault. He created the situation with his policy change which Sessions sent to the DHS. These are facts that will not be explained away by some kind of whataboutism as it pertains to the laws on teh books and who is responsible for those laws.

Did some kids get separated in teh past from their parents? YES, if their parents were determined to be MS13 or terrorists or whatever, but a complete and no tolerance policy, enacted by the POTUS, lead to the prosecution of ALL the of age parents, and thus their separation from their children.

When he told the American people that he couldn't do anything about it, he lied. When he claimed it wasn't his fault, he lied. Theres more lies, but those are the important ones.

The situation sucks, people are trying to come into the USA illegally. Locking them up and separating them from their children is a tough guy act that Trump wanted to do as a deterrant. He actually is upset that he had to back down from it. They were opening up more child tent camps in anticipation of more. Since May 2k kids have been separated, this whole situation was created to make a political crisis. It was planned, it was deliberate.

This "policy" you refer to, is nothing more than Trump telling Sessions to uphold the existing law. Trump has repeatedly said that congress needs to change the law. Changing the law is a non starter for dems and some repubs in the senate; by their own statements. So who is ultimately responsible; Logically? The dems and some repubs, true colors will be revealed now that Trump has signed the EO. Keeping the children with their parents will not be enough for them, because their true desire is simply let these people walk into country unimpeded. Just watch and see.

 

[orangelvis]

https://nrccfi.camden.rutgers.edu/files/nrccfi-fact-sheet-2014.pdf

 

[FLaw47]

This "policy" you refer to, is nothing more than Trump telling Sessions to uphold the existing law. Trump has repeatedly said that congress needs to change the law. Changing the law is a non starter for dems and some repubs in the senate; by their own statements. So who is ultimately responsible; Logically? The dems and some repubs, true colors will be revealed now that Trump has signed the EO. Keeping the children with their parents will not be enough for them, because their true desire is simply let these people walk into country unimpeded. Just watch and see.

If a person is the sole reason a problem existed and fixed it entirely on their own, it's their fault. The laws didn't change between administrations. And don't give me the "we have to uphold the law" bullshit. There are a ton of laws that aren't enforced and that's just how it is. It's called prosecutorial discretion and the executive gets a lot of latitude in what to prioritize. Trump decided to prioritize separation, lied about it being his decision, lied about being able to end it, and then ended it all on his own.

 

[Rychek4]

This "policy" you refer to, is nothing more than Trump telling Sessions to uphold the existing law.

This is factually incorrect and a lie. No law or court ruling mandates family separations.

Illegal entry is a misdemeanor for first-time offenders and a conviction is grounds for deportation. Because of Trump’s executive order, DHS can deport people for misdemeanors more easily, because the government no longer prioritizes the removal of dangerous criminals, gang members or national-security threats.

Yes you read that correctly. Trump had created a policy that not only separated children from their parents, but it did NOT prioritize the removal of criminals and gang members. Well played.

 

[FLaw47]

It's not illogical if you define what it means to "systematically and thanklessly take advantage of" someone. Who do we "systematically and thanklessly take advantage of"? How do we do that?

Of course, once you specify/define the problem, you then have to specify/define the "responsibility" that should be assumed to remedy the inequity.

See, morality and logic can be a wonderful marriage.

I don't know what specifics you are thing of, but in general I do subscribe to the belief that contracts between 2 parties often favor the party with the better leverage, and that is as it should be in a free market system. As long as both parties realize the expected benefit of the contract and the terms of the contract are met, then neither party can make claims of being "systematically taken advantage of". Just something to think about when evaluating Americas interactions with the rest of the world.

Ok. We take advantage of Mexicans and their more lax labor standards for cheaper fruit and automobiles. We take advantage of Bangladesh's lax labor standards for cheap clothes. We overthrew the democratically elected government of Guatemala and subjected them to a 36 year Civil War for f'ning bananas (where we get the term "banana republic" from). Those are the ones I could rattle off without looking into it at all. Our global record of completely screwing over the less fortunate is appalling and yes, I do think we have a responsibility to do something about that.

Also I flatly reject your "favor the party with the better leverage, and that is as it should be in a free market system" argument. Maybe in an unregulated economy that's true but if you want to see an unregulated economy I invite you to look at the early 20th century and then make it a lot worse. We have labor standards for a very good reason and only morons support a fully unfettered free market or full fledged socialism. We've been in a mixed economy for centuries and that's the only way it should be. Might doesn't make right with this. Leverage is one component but it's not the be all, end all. That's why it's illegal to deny someone service at the emergency room. Hospital has a lot of leverage there but for whatever reason, they're not allowed to force you sign a contract that you'll be their personal slave for the rest of your life. That situation passes your "As long as both parties realize the expected benefit of the contract and the terms of the contract are met, then neither party can make claims of being "systematically taken advantage of"" test but I think we both know it's stupid.

 

[Poker_Tiger]

You aint sure what the lie was? The lie was that it wasn't his fault. He created the situation with his policy change which Sessions sent to the DHS. These are facts that will not be explained away by some kind of whataboutism as it pertains to the laws on teh books and who is responsible for those laws.

Did some kids get separated in teh past from their parents? YES, if their parents were determined to be MS13 or terrorists or whatever, but a complete and no tolerance policy, enacted by the POTUS, lead to the prosecution of ALL the of age parents, and thus their separation from their children.

When he told the American people that he couldn't do anything about it, he lied. When he claimed it wasn't his fault, he lied. Theres more lies, but those are the important ones.

The situation sucks, people are trying to come into the USA illegally. Locking them up and separating them from their children is a tough guy act that Trump wanted to do as a deterrant. He actually is upset that he had to back down from it. They were opening up more child tent camps in anticipation of more. Since May 2k kids have been separated, this whole situation was created to make a political crisis. It was planned, it was deliberate.

Weren’t there separated children in these facilities the day before the policy took effect? I’m not sure what day that was, but if that is true, in what way did Trump “create” this situation?

Short of genetic testing, I don’t see how anyone is going to determine which groups of adults and children that show up at our boarders are legitimate families and which are not. That is a real problem.

As far as not being able to do anything about it, he clearly backtracked on that, though it is true he cannot make or modify the law. Only Congress can do that. I do think the executive order is a political play. It will ultimately not fly. Pressure will then go back to Congress. That whole move was about the midterms. It is actually a very savvy political move, but it does expose Trump to criticism that he lied. Of course, that has been said about a million times since his election, so it is just more of the same.

 

[Rychek4]

It is actually a very savvy political move

I cannot understand how this comment makes any sense whatsoever.

 

[nytigerfan]

As far as not being able to do anything about it, he clearly LIED on that, though it is true he cannot make or modify the law. Only Congress can do that. I do think the executive order is a political play. It will ultimately not fly. Pressure will then go back to Congress. That whole move was about the midterms. It is actually a very savvy political move, but it does expose Trump to criticism that he lied. Of course, that has been said about a million times since his election, so it is just more of the same.

Fixed it for you

 

[orangelvis]

If a person is the sole reason a problem existed and fixed it entirely on their own, it's their fault. The laws didn't change between administrations. And don't give me the "we have to uphold the law" bullshit. There are a ton of laws that aren't enforced and that's just how it is. It's called prosecutorial discretion and the executive gets a lot of latitude in what to prioritize. Trump decided to prioritize separation, lied about it being his decision, lied about being able to end it, and then ended it all on his own.

Well, that's not entirely true. There was a time when Obama was doing the same thing, just not as much "outrage".

https://www.vox.com/2015/7/29/9067877/family-detention-immigration-flores

 

[nytigerfan]

I cannot understand how this comment makes any sense whatsoever.

You gotta give Trump some credit here. He did say during the campaign “I could shoot someone in the middle of 5th Avenue and I would not lose any supporters.” He was so right. The sheep will follow without question.

 

[FLaw47]

Well, that's not entirely true. There was a time when Obama was doing the same thing, just not as much "outrage".

https://www.vox.com/2015/7/29/9067877/family-detention-immigration-flores

Right in the headline, try reading it: "Why is the Obama administration still fighting to keep immigrant families behind bars?"

 

[orangelvis]

This is factually incorrect and a lie. No law or court ruling mandates family separations.

Illegal entry is a misdemeanor for first-time offenders and a conviction is grounds for deportation. Because of Trump’s executive order, DHS can deport people for misdemeanors more easily, because the government no longer prioritizes the removal of dangerous criminals, gang members or national-security threats.

Yes you read that correctly. Trump had created a policy that not only separated children from their parents, but it did NOT prioritize the removal of criminals and gang members. Well played.

...

...and you're saying this has never been done before...

https://www.vox.com/2015/7/29/9067877/family-detention-immigration-flores

"Immigrant rights advocates invoked the Flores settlement to challenge the current detentions. The government argued that key parts of Flores didn't apply because the children were being detained with their parents. But on Friday, after months of negotiation, federal Judge Dolly Gee sided with the advocates. She ruled that the government was holding children in secured, prison-like, unlicensed facilities, and that violated the 1996 agreement."

 

[Poker_Tiger]

Ok. We take advantage of Mexicans and their more lax labor standards for cheaper fruit and automobiles. We take advantage of Bangladesh's lax labor standards for cheap clothes. We overthrew the democratically elected government of Guatemala and subjected them to a 36 year Civil War for f'ning bananas (where we get the term "banana republic" from). Those are the ones I could rattle off without looking into it at all. Our global record of completely screwing over the less fortunate is appalling and yes, I do think we have a responsibility to do something about that.

Also I flatly reject your "favor the party with the better leverage, and that is as it should be in a free market system" argument. Maybe in an unregulated economy that's true but if you want to see an unregulated economy I invite you to look at the early 20th century and then make it a lot worse. We have labor standards for a very good reason and only morons support a fully unfettered free market or full fledged socialism. We've been in a mixed economy for centuries and that's the only way it should be. Might doesn't make right with this. Leverage is one component but it's not the be all, end all. That's why it's illegal to deny someone service at the emergency room. Hospital has a lot of leverage there but for whatever reason, they're not allowed to force you sign a contract that you'll be their personal slave for the rest of your life. That situation passes your "As long as both parties realize the expected benefit of the contract and the terms of the contract are met, then neither party can make claims of being "systematically taken advantage of"" test but I think we both know it's stupid.

So you are saying we should only trade with countries that have the same (or greater) labor protections than we do, and if we do trade with them, that means we have done so immorally and are taking advantage of them for our benefit?

Ok, I can understand that view. But what is the solution? If we stop trade with these countries unless they meet our standards, then we will ultimately hurt their economies making their situation worse. If we mandate they raise their standards, their costs will increase reducing or eliminating revenue from their products. Subsidies as an economic panacea never work over the long term.

Whatever your answer, I just appreciate the reasonable discussion driven by facts and logic vs the emotional garbage all over social media and even the news media.

 

[Rychek4]

...

...and you're saying this has never been done before...

https://www.vox.com/2015/7/29/9067877/family-detention-immigration-flores

"Immigrant rights advocates invoked the Flores settlement to challenge the current detentions. The government argued that key parts of Flores didn't apply because the children were being detained with their parents. But on Friday, after months of negotiation, federal Judge Dolly Gee sided with the advocates. She ruled that the government was holding children in secured, prison-like, unlicensed facilities, and that violated the 1996 agreement."

Did you even read your own citation? They didn't separate the families in that case, they held them but they didn't break up the family. Don't make me defend Obama, damn.

"One 7-year-old just lay in his mother’s arms while she bottle-fed him."

 

[nytigerfan]

Well, that's not entirely true. There was a time when Obama was doing the same thing, just not as much "outrage".

https://www.vox.com/2015/7/29/9067877/family-detention-immigration-flores

The government argued that key parts of Flores didn't apply because the children were being detained with their parents.

Did you read the article? Families were detained with their children. Children were. It separated from their parents. This article actually destroys the other arguments you have made in this very thread.

 

[FLaw47]

So you are saying we should only trade with countries that have the same (or greater) labor protections than we do, and if we do trade with them, that means we have done so immorally and are taking advantage of them for our benefit?

Ok, I can understand that view. But what is the solution? If we stop trade with these countries unless they meet our standards, then we will ultimately hurt their economies making their situation worse. If we mandate they raise their standards, their costs will increase reducing or eliminating revenue from their products. Subsidies as an economic panacea never work over the long term.

Whatever your answer, I just appreciate the reasonable discussion driven by facts and logic vs the emotional garbage all over social media and even the news media.

My point is that we've done some objectively awful things and a lot of subjectively awful things. I don't haven't a solution, honestly. I just think that, given our record, we could probably show a little more empathy to the people fleeing their homes for one reason or another.

 

[orangelvis]

Right in the headline, try reading it: "Why is the Obama administration still fighting to keep immigrant families behind bars?"

Try reading

" And guards separated kids (some as young as 6) from their parents as a way of disciplining them."

 

[Rychek4]

Try reading

" And guards separated kids (some as young as 6) from their parents as a way of disciplining them."

Unilaterally separating families as policy vs. some guards doing shitty things to kids misbehaving is a false equivalence and you know it.

 

[Poker_Tiger]

I cannot understand how this comment makes any sense whatsoever.

Because I think Trump knows this order will be shot down by the courts. He will get to say “I tried, but like I said originally, it is outside of my power to do anything about these laws”. That will both highlight the fact that Congress needs to change the law and put pressure back on them to do it at the same time.

Of course, this assumes that the option of just letting the immigrants that show up at the boarder with children go, is not an option. Which will just help further segment people into groups that believe either there should be boarders or there shouldn’t be boarders. I don’t think Trump or the Republicans care much about the “no boarders” crowd because they are never going to change their minds anyway. So even that is a good move.

 

[FLaw47]

Try reading

" And guards separated kids (some as young as 6) from their parents as a way of disciplining them."

Yeah man, time out is the same as sending your child across the country and not saying where you sent them. Or when you'll see them again.

 

[Poker_Tiger]

Fixed it for you

That’s fine. You can call that a lie.

I think the executive order is more of the “lie” because he knows it won’t hold up. And I think that will just help prove his statement that he can not do anything about the laws is true.

Now he could chose to just let these apparent families that show up at the boarder go, but he will not do that.

 

[orangelvis]

Unilaterally separating families as policy vs. some guards doing shitty things to kids misbehaving is a false equivalence and you know it.

And you and the MSM are totally disregarding the fact that more than half of these supposed families are not families at all. These children are only separated initially to determine if they are being used to enter the country; only to be sold off into the trafficking system, which I have brought attention in other threads. This is more complicated than is being reported and these children are being diligently cared for until final determinations can be made.
I still say that from a political standpoint, this is a false outrage orchestrated by the left to take the focus off the conspiracy, sedition and possible treason that was perpetrated by the Obama/Clinton cabal.
Wonder what is really being revealed here?

 

[FLaw47]

And you and the MSM are totally disregarding the fact that more than half of these supposed families are not families at all. These children are only separated initially to determine if they are being used to enter the country; only to be sold off into the trafficking system, which I have brought attention in other threads. This is more complicated than is being reported and these children are being diligently cared for until final determinations can be made.
I still say that from a political standpoint, this is a false outrage orchestrated by the left to take the focus off the conspiracy, sedition and possible treason that was perpetrated by the Obama/Clinton cabal.
Wonder what is really being revealed here?

View embedded media

If you can't win the argument, change subjects!

 

[orangelvis]

That’s fine. You can call that a lie.

I think the executive order is more of the “lie” because he knows it won’t hold up. And I think that will just help prove his statement that he can not do anything about the laws is true.

Now he could chose to just let these apparent families that show up at the boarder go, but he will not do that.

True. More than half are not families at all. There are ports of entry where asylum can be applied for with no separation. Those that choose to try to enter illegally must be viewed with suspicion; because of the child trafficking situation, which is far more dangerous to children and far more prevalent than people realize.

 

[orangelvis]

If you can't win the argument, change subjects!

not changing the subject, just making a point. It's easy to see when the msm on cue changes the subject in conjunction with lib politicians. Only takes them about an hour to accomplish. They give it away, though, by using the same rhetoric; using words like Nazi, concentration camps, etc.
Like I said earlier, doesn't matter that POTUS signed EO. The truth is these people want open borders, period.

 

[Rychek4]

And you and the MSM are totally disregarding the fact that more than half of these supposed families are not families at all. These children are only separated initially to determine if they are being used to enter the country; only to be sold off into the trafficking system

Do you have some evidence of this? I won't entertain your conjecture and conspiracy theories. I do believe you are blindly loyal to our party and I believe the Republican party that Reagan and Goldwater once lead is in tatters. I don't know if it was the southern strategy that did it or some other force, money and greed perhaps, but this isn't a party that represents me anymore.

 

[orangelvis]

Do you have some evidence of this? I won't entertain your conjecture and conspiracy theories. I do believe you are blindly loyal to our party and I believe the Republican party that Reagan and Goldwater once lead is in tatters. I don't know if it was the southern strategy that did it or some other force, money and greed perhaps, but this isn't a party that represents me anymore.

I'm not a party loyalist. I'm not even registered with either party. I did have to pick a party to vote in the primary last week. I believe there are people in both parties that are not pro-American in the traditional sense. They are not interested in the sovereignty of the US as a nation. Pelosi is out this morning demanding zero border enforcement. I like Trump because he is doing or trying to do everything he promised. When has that ever happened? In his inauguration address he said that this was not a peaceful transfer of power from one party to the other, but he was going to give power back to the people; where it belongs. He has to clean out the "swamp" in order to accomplish this, and that is what is happening. I believe the swamp includes the msm which acts in unison as the propaganda arm of the swamp. I believe we will see riots in the next week or so. These are astro turfed and will be made to appear bigger than they actually are. They've done this before. Isn't it amazing to you that we are witnessing the unveiling of the biggest abuse of power in American history and no one in the msm is investigating/reporting on it?
My youngest daughter works for DSS in the Foster/Adoption division. My brother works for Dept of Labor. They both know things. Also, just google and see all the arrest that are happening. Operation "Broken Heart" was the latest. There have been many others. You only see these stories in local news coverage. Why? Where do you think the children come from that are used to create child pornography? Used as sex slaves? Women also.
The ACLU is already attacking the EO. It will be challenged and overturned in court using the "Flores" precedent. This is why the POTUS has been hammering congress to come up with a new, common sense immigration legislation that will protect the border. He campaigned on it and was a big reason he was elected. He is opposed by all dems and many repubs; for different reasons. The point is, we will either be a sovereign nation with controllable borders; like every other country, or we won't. There are legal ways to apply for asylum or citizenship.
EDIT: to add this
https://arkofhopeforchildren.org/child-trafficking/child-trafficking-statistics

 

[FLaw47]

I'm not a party loyalist. I'm not even registered with either party. I did have to pick a party to vote in the primary last week. I believe there are people in both parties that are not pro-American in the traditional sense. They are not interested in the sovereignty of the US as a nation. Pelosi is out this morning demanding zero border enforcement. I like Trump because he is doing or trying to do everything he promised. When has that ever happened? In his inauguration address he said that this was not a peaceful transfer of power from one party to the other, but he was going to give power back to the people; where it belongs. He has to clean out the "swamp" in order to accomplish this, and that is what is happening. I believe the swamp includes the msm which acts in unison as the propaganda arm of the swamp. I believe we will see riots in the next week or so. These are astro turfed and will be made to appear bigger than they actually are. They've done this before. Isn't it amazing to you that we are witnessing the unveiling of the biggest abuse of power in American history and no one in the msm is investigating/reporting on it?
My youngest daughter works for DSS in the Foster/Adoption division. My brother works for Dept of Labor. They both know things. Also, just google and see all the arrest that are happening. Operation "Broken Heart" was the latest. There have been many others. You only see these stories in local news coverage. Why? Where do you think the children come from that are used to create child pornography? Used as sex slaves? Women also.
The ACLU is already attacking the EO. It will be challenged and overturned in court using the "Flores" precedent. This is why the POTUS has been hammering congress to come up with a new, common sense immigration legislation that will protect the border. He campaigned on it and was a big reason he was elected. He is opposed by all dems and many repubs; for different reasons. The point is, we will either be a sovereign nation with controllable borders; like every other country, or we won't. There are legal ways to apply for asylum or citizenship.

Don't worry @Rychek4, he personally knows people who know things. And if you don't believe him, google it yourself. He can't be bothered.

 

[Rychek4]

I'm not a party loyalist.

You'll have to forgive me but I believe about 85% of this post is regurgitated garbage and I think you are a lair not worthy of further discussion.

 

[orangelvis]

Don't worry @Rychek4, he personally knows people who know things. And if you don't believe him, google it yourself. He can't be bothered.

OK smartass. Just edited with an attachment. I don't care what you believe and I'm not trying to convince people who don't really care otherwise. Its pretty obvious to me that illegal crossings that involve children are highly suspicious when a true family can simply show up a port of entry and file for asylum without being separated. Makes me think that that illegal crosser didn't really have asylum on their minds to begin with, only if they get caught. But hey, that's just me, evidently.

 

[orangelvis]

You'll have to forgive me but I believe about 85% of this post is regurgitated garbage and I think you are a lair not worthy of further discussion.

Your prerogative. No skin off my teeth. Just watch what and see what happens.