OT: How does the Mueller investigation play out?

[Charybdis]

Some ground rules. No partisan quibbling. I'm not asking what you think should happen, if you think Trump is Christ, or if you think he is Satan, or anything in between.

Just curious for opinions/predictions on actual outcomes.

I can see scenarios where this blows up into a full-scale constitutional crisis (President pardoning himself, refusing to make public the investigation, shutting down the investigation before it is finished, but I can also see it being a whole of smoke and no fire, eventually ending up as a political talking point for the next election cycle).

Your thoughts?

 

[GoodWord28]

Roundtable in 3,2....

 

[WinstonW101]

It will play out Better than this thread will go

 

[blizzard]

I think it's a damn disgrace how they treated Flynn

 

[JAMCRACKER99]

Will end up somewhere in between.

 

[hj_gville]

And to think Gary Johnson’s Perot-esque bid was derailed because he didn’t know where the f@&$ Aleppo was.

 

[Daytontiger]

I think what will happen is what's already begun to happen: there is actual evidence of crime but the GOP-run Senate shrugs its shoulders and says "so what?"

Lots of quibbling and bickering will ensue. A whole lot of nothing.

--Mr. DT

 

[ClemsonGentleman]

I think politics is the dirtiest "sport", and the players end up being the cops, judge and jury.

It will all be decided in November 2020.

 

[wdrcu75]

While they're at it they should give everyone in DC the same thorough proctological exam that Trump's getting.

 

[auctionhome]

They have evidence of a crime now and you'll see the scope and number of crimes grow over time. They will not impeach or bring charges while in office, but he will not run again.

 

[johnhugh]

I think trump just decides not to run again. Then he gets indicted after stepping away from office. Then trump supporters cry out that the law is fake news. Fox cries about lawyers and law enforcement being bullies, and msnbc creams all over itself

 

[Jtyler]

 

[dbjork6317]

Some ground rules. No partisan quibbling. I'm not asking what you think should happen, if you think Trump is Christ, or if you think he is Satan, or anything in between.

Just curious for opinions/predictions on actual outcomes.

I can see scenarios where this blows up into a full-scale constitutional crisis (President pardoning himself, refusing to make public the investigation, shutting down the investigation before it is finished, but I can also see it being a whole of smoke and no fire, eventually ending up as a political talking point for the next election cycle).

Your thoughts?

I think some sort of constitutional issue and gut check for both political parties is likely how this winds up.

The President has continuously called the investigation a fraud and a witch hunt. However the investigation has yielded several guilty please and seems poised to issue more indictments.

Not only has the President consistently publicly undermined the investigation, he has also praised people like Roger Stone for not making a deal with Mueller while dangling the carrot of a pardon which could be viewed as witness tampering.

Regardless of how you feel about the President, these are potentially significant challenges to the constitution and rule of law.

With it becoming increasingly clear that were crimes committed by members of the Trump campaign, and with a very strong case being made that Trump himself directed some of these activities, the investigation will continue to grow tighter and tighter around the President’s inner circle. An indictment of Donald Trump Jr seems imminent.

It is only a matter of time before the President reacts in a way that challenges the American principles of the rule of law. Whether it’s firing Mueller or pardoning himself or whatever the case may be, there is nothing about this President’s time in office that suggests he will allow this to play out without interference.

When that happens, both parties will really have to look themselves in the mirror and decide how important the constitution is to them. This is especially true for Republicans who will be under immense political pressure to stand pat.

Every new indictment or guilty plea that the investigation secures makes it more difficult for any politician to brush it off if/when the President interferes in the investigation.

 

[PalmettoTiger1]

It is truly SAD to see the replies and conclusions throughout this thread

 

[PalmettoTiger1]

While they're at it they should give everyone in DC the same thorough proctological exam that Trump's getting.

There would be no survivors as DC is not a swamp but a cesspool

Trump just waded in and exposed it more than the people want the American people to see

 

[wdrcu75]

As @Westendtiger says, he pulled back the curtain.

 

[MBRO]

Looking forward to 2019 when the Middle Eastern connections are explored by the Special Counsel.

 

[Charybdis]

Looking forward to 2019 when the Middle Eastern connections are explored by the Special Counsel.

Go on.

 

[Charybdis]

It is truly SAD to see the replies and conclusions throughout this thread

Such as?

 

[Rychek4]

I think some sort of constitutional issue and gut check for both political parties is likely how this winds up.

The President has continuously called the investigation a fraud and a witch hunt. However the investigation has yielded several guilty please and seems poised to issue more indictments.

Not only has the President consistently publicly undermined the investigation, he has also praised people like Roger Stone for not making a deal with Mueller while dangling the carrot of a pardon which could be viewed as witness tampering.

Regardless of how you feel about the President, these are potentially significant challenges to the constitution and rule of law.

With it becoming increasingly clear that were crimes committed by members of the Trump campaign, and with a very strong case being made that Trump himself directed some of these activities, the investigation will continue to grow tighter and tighter around the President’s inner circle. An indictment of Donald Trump Jr seems imminent.

It is only a matter of time before the President reacts in a way that challenges the American principles of the rule of law. Whether it’s firing Mueller or pardoning himself or whatever the case may be, there is nothing about this President’s time in office that suggests he will allow this to play out without interference.

When that happens, both parties will really have to look themselves in the mirror and decide how important the constitution is to them. This is especially true for Republicans who will be under immense political pressure to stand pat.

Every new indictment or guilty plea that the investigation secures makes it more difficult for any politician to brush it off if/when the President interferes in the investigation.

Without regard to what I want to happen, this seems like the most likely outcome.

 

[JAMCRACKER99]

While they're at it they should give everyone in DC the same thorough proctological exam that Trump's getting.

They start with the biggest ass first.

 

[Casa_del_Tigre]

While they're at it they should give everyone in DC the same thorough proctological exam that Trump's getting.

I agree. If there are other politicians that have numerous felons working for them they should be investigated.

 

[clemben]

I think it's a damn disgrace how they treated Flynn

Those FBI agents--how could they let Flynn lie to them even after they asked him if he wanted to have White House counsel in the room. How dare they??

If you lie to the FBI as the National Security Advisor, a felony, why does that even matter? And when Kate McFarland also lies and like 14 other people lie about the same thing--who cares? At least they let McFarland amend her testimony.

And who cares why he lied? Why take 70 hours or so of testimony from Flynn? I used to be all 'law and order' and protect national security/terrorism/who cares about civil liberties, but this cabal of guys catching people telling lies--this is just too much! Don't tread on me!

 

[hopefultiger13]

Well, it's no secret on here how I feel about our President, but I'll try and answer as best I can w/o letting that dislike interfere too much:

The bottom line here is that no one outside of Mueller's investigation knows a damn thing. There have been a BUNCH of conclusions drawn from the charges and pleas and filings that HAVE to be public. The networks put a bunch of experts on and they say what they THINK is happening. Maybe they are right and maybe they aren't. But they don't KNOW and neither do we.

IMHO, proving that the then Candidate Trump conspired to defraud the United States with Russia is a tough thing to do. There does appear to be some smoke here. I do trust Mueller to find out and prove the case if it can be done. If Mueller can't prove the case, I'll believe that as well.

My problem with this whole thing is that our President has NOT acted like an innocent man. I don't have a problem with him building a Trump Tower in Moscow with all the negotiation and dirty dealings that that must involve. That's business as usual for Trump and company.

I do have a problem with the systematic lying about it. If Trump said, yep, been working to have a new Trump tower built in Russia... doesn't look like it's going to happen though. And yep, I've had Russians investing in my real estate deals here and abroad for years. Their money spends just as well as American money. Simple, no? And Donald Trump is a genius right?

But that's not what happened. This story has changed MULTIPLE times. First Trump denied any contact (forget conspiracy/collusion) with Russia at all for himself AND his campaign. When this story was proven false by the "fake news" media. THEN they were just meeting to sort out Russian adoptions. When this story was pretty much immediately proven false (again by the "fake news" media). THEN, yes we were meeting to get dirt on Clinton, but we didn't get any. Now I think that we are at the point where the fact that the meeting took place but it wasn't actually illegal. Kind of the same deal with Trump tower. Trump lied about it, then took a step back and lied some more.

Those are not the actions of an honest man. One thing is perfectly clear right now is that you can't believe a word about this thing that comes out of Trump's mouth b/c he's lied every step of the way. We are going to have to wait on Mueller, and that's going to be a while.

 

[TigerGrowls]

Some ground rules. No partisan quibbling. I'm not asking what you think should happen, if you think Trump is Christ, or if you think he is Satan, or anything in between.

Just curious for opinions/predictions on actual outcomes.

I can see scenarios where this blows up into a full-scale constitutional crisis (President pardoning himself, refusing to make public the investigation, shutting down the investigation before it is finished, but I can also see it being a whole of smoke and no fire, eventually ending up as a political talking point for the next election cycle).

Your thoughts?

Trump committed no crimes. The charged felons around him are collateral damage of the deep state hit put on him when he became the republican nominee. Yes Manafort committed unrelated crimes, but none that can be remotely connected to Trump in any way whatsoever at this point. The deep state coup attempt is still in progress today. I think he will not ever be charged with crimes, but may be impeached by the house. It will die in the senate. I say that he will run and win in 2020 as of today.

Roughly 45% of the country is strongly for him and another 45% strongly against him and we will see how this plays out. Most are strongly ensconced in their viewpoints and I am included in that. It would take a lot for me to drop my support of Trump unless some strong facts come forward which I have not seen yet. This campaign finance crap with Cohen is a joke....no crimes committed, but even if you can derive an infraction, its a civil offense that is only fined as evidenced by commissar obama having to pay a 375k fine in 2014 directed by his protector eric holder.

The state of NY thinks it has open season for an inquisition of his entire life...this is not right and should/better not happen. All of this Cohen crap started with a gestapo type raid on a lawyers office and this never happens in America except here....it was a fishing expedition designed to go after Trump. Parties in this thread talking rule of law have it flipped the wrong way in a distorted fashion since its against Trump.

I still rate higher odds of Hillary and Obama being put in gitmo than Trump being proven a traitor to America.

 

[Rychek4]

Trump committed no crimes.

We just don't know if this is true yet. I will make no assertions to anyone's guilt or innocence until I have all the facts and at least some of the 17 investigations into Trump and his organization have concluded.

 

[TigerGrowls]

We just don't know if this is true yet. I will make no assertions to anyone's guilt or innocence until I have all the facts and at least some of the 17 investigations into Trump and his organization have concluded.

Where is presumption of innocence and what is the justification for any of these investigations? Its all a sham.

 

[Rychek4]

Where is presumption of innocence

He is still President and not in jail, obviously this presumption is still intact. As it should be.

what is the justification for any of these investigations?

July 2016: The FBI opens a counterintelligence investigation into links between the Trump campaign and the Russian government. Republican members of the House Intelligence Committee later confirmed that information from Papadopoulos triggered the investigation.

Other than that, I assume all the guilty pleas show some justification for the investigations.

 

[TigerGrowls]

He is still President and not in jail, obviously this presumption is still intact. As it should be.



July 2016: The FBI opens a counterintelligence investigation into links between the Trump campaign and the Russian government. Republican members of the House Intelligence Committee later confirmed that information from Papadopoulos triggered the investigation.

Other than that, I assume all the guilty pleas show some justification for the investigations.

@Rychek4 ,,,you know that Papadopoulos was set up by Brennan and CIA spies Halper and a few others. Paid him to go over there, asked him leading questions over a series of meetings to plant ideas, then got him drunk and conveniently put him in front of australian ambassador(Clinton Friend & associate) Downer and asked the same question again in front of an attractive woman. If thats the pretense for all of this then its a sham. I still want Brennan, Clapper and a number of others in gitmo for this and it has a chance to happen.

 

[Rychek4]

@Rychek4 ,,,you know that Papadopoulos was set up by Brennan and CIA spies Halper and a few others. Paid him to go over there, asked him leading questions over a series of meetings to plant ideas, then got him drunk and conveniently put him in front of australian ambassador(Clinton Friend & associate) Downer and asked the same question again in front of an attractive woman. If thats the pretense for all of this then its a sham. I still want Brennan, Clapper and a number of others in gitmo for this and it has a chance to happen.

If these are your assertions, I would need to see some evidence to believe them. Try to find something that isn't an opinion piece.

 

[hopefultiger13]

Trump committed no crimes. The charged felons around him are collateral damage of the deep state hit put on him when he became the republican nominee. Yes Manafort committed unrelated crimes, but none that can be remotely connected to Trump in any way whatsoever at this point. The deep state coup attempt is still in progress today. I think he will not ever be charged with crimes, but may be impeached by the house. It will die in the senate. I say that he will run and win in 2020 as of today.

Roughly 45% of the country is strongly for him and another 45% strongly against him and we will see how this plays out. Most are strongly ensconced in their viewpoints and I am included in that. It would take a lot for me to drop my support of Trump unless some strong facts come forward which I have not seen yet. This campaign finance crap with Cohen is a joke....no crimes committed, but even if you can derive an infraction, its a civil offense that is only fined as evidenced by commissar obama having to pay a 375k fine in 2014 directed by his protector eric holder.

The state of NY thinks it has open season for an inquisition of his entire life...this is not right and should/better not happen. All of this Cohen crap started with a gestapo type raid on a lawyers office and this never happens in America except here....it was a fishing expedition designed to go after Trump. Parties in this thread talking rule of law have it flipped the wrong way in a distorted fashion since its against Trump.

I still rate higher odds of Hillary and Obama being put in gitmo than Trump being proven a traitor to America.

How do you know that Trump committed no crimes? Because he told you so?

I this is absolutely what I don't understand at all. Trump has CLEARLY lied about damn near all of this. Remember when he didn't know about the payments? He said that to the American people. Now we know that he did (and I'm not talking Cohen... his lawyers have said this.. AND the National Enquirer has as well) AND that he did it to keep it out of the news so his campaign wouldn't take a hit. Trump was paying them off so his family wouldn't be hurt? Please. Like his wife and kids don't KNOW that he screws anything with a pulse.

We also know that he lied every step of the way on Russia. Remember when there was NO CONTACT between him and Russia? He said he hadn't spoken to anyone in Russia in years. All the while the Trump Tower in Moscow negotiations had been going on.

Trump is a liar, pure and simple. Here are some other good ones. US Steele is opening 5 new factories. N Korea is no longer a threat to the US. He says WHATEVER makes him look good or keeps him from looking bad. So he tells us that there's a vast conspiracy to "get" him by people (many of them life long Republicans) in the government. There's also a vast conspiracy to make him look bad by the "fake news" media. Now there's a conspiracy in the state of NY to "get" him... An inquisition of his entire life, I think you said. Please man.

Trump has spent his ENTIRE life looking after himself and making himself look great. Trump is all about Trump and always has been, rules and laws are something to get around if you can. But all of a sudden, he's the good guy and all these other folks are out to get him? I don't understand the blind faith that Trump's supporters have for him. He's never done a damn thing that didn't help himself first and foremost.

 

[nytigerfan]

Trump committed no crimes.

We just don't know yet. But we will find out soon enough. If you look at what is happening with an unbiased view, you can put the pieces together and assume that Trump will be charged with crimes. Here are a few indicators...

Trump and his followers like you and Hannity are doing everything they can to discredit the investigation. They are creating an alternate reality - with no evidence - that Mueller is the head of his own crime family, which is of course is made up mostly of people that have dedicated their lives to law enforcement. SO much for blue lives matter.

As Trey Gowdy said to Trump, "When you are innocent, act like it." Trump's behavior is not that of an innocent man, when he says he wants to fire his AG for recusing himself and "not protecting me."

Guiliani - his attorney - keeps moving the goal posts. First, "he didn't do it and it is all nonsense". Second, "even if he did do it so what, people do this stuff all the time". Third, "OK, he did it but it isnt a crime." Fourth, "OK even if it was a crime he is the president and you cannot convict him".

The constant lies. Trump lies and lies and lies and lies. It is crazy how anyone can trust him at this point. As Giuliani said in trump's defense, "Truth isnt truth."

 

[nytigerfan]

Some ground rules. No partisan quibbling. I'm not asking what you think should happen, if you think Trump is Christ, or if you think he is Satan, or anything in between.

Just curious for opinions/predictions on actual outcomes.

I can see scenarios where this blows up into a full-scale constitutional crisis (President pardoning himself, refusing to make public the investigation, shutting down the investigation before it is finished, but I can also see it being a whole of smoke and no fire, eventually ending up as a political talking point for the next election cycle).

Your thoughts?

I think the x factor is the economy, it is showing very troubling signs right now and we are likely going to see a significant downturn in the next year. If that happens, then I think Repubs will dump trump and he will likely face impeachment in the senate as well.

 

[Rychek4]

I think the x factor is the economy, it is showing very troubling signs right now and we are likely going to see a significant downturn in the next year. If that happens, then I think Repubs will dump trump and he will likely face impeachment in the senate as well.

Yeah I don't like it when the 50 day crosses the 200 day.

 

[firegiver]

I think some sort of constitutional issue and gut check for both political parties is likely how this winds up.

The President has continuously called the investigation a fraud and a witch hunt. However the investigation has yielded several guilty please and seems poised to issue more indictments.

Not only has the President consistently publicly undermined the investigation, he has also praised people like Roger Stone for not making a deal with Mueller while dangling the carrot of a pardon which could be viewed as witness tampering.

Regardless of how you feel about the President, these are potentially significant challenges to the constitution and rule of law.

With it becoming increasingly clear that were crimes committed by members of the Trump campaign, and with a very strong case being made that Trump himself directed some of these activities, the investigation will continue to grow tighter and tighter around the President’s inner circle. An indictment of Donald Trump Jr seems imminent.

It is only a matter of time before the President reacts in a way that challenges the American principles of the rule of law. Whether it’s firing Mueller or pardoning himself or whatever the case may be, there is nothing about this President’s time in office that suggests he will allow this to play out without interference.

When that happens, both parties will really have to look themselves in the mirror and decide how important the constitution is to them. This is especially true for Republicans who will be under immense political pressure to stand pat.

Every new indictment or guilty plea that the investigation secures makes it more difficult for any politician to brush it off if/when the President interferes in the investigation.

Really well said. I think this ends badly personally. Trump's has played the fear card a whole lot and riles his base up in doing so. I'm personally very worried that he will challenge the rule of law. He's done so already and is floating the idea that these are just process crimes etc. It scares me because if Trump is indicted and just pardons himself, the new watermark in American politics is that you can do whatever you want and get away with it, even in the public eye.

 

[firegiver]

Trump committed no crimes. The charged felons around him are collateral damage of the deep state hit put on him when he became the republican nominee. Yes Manafort committed unrelated crimes, but none that can be remotely connected to Trump in any way whatsoever at this point. The deep state coup attempt is still in progress today. I think he will not ever be charged with crimes, but may be impeached by the house. It will die in the senate. I say that he will run and win in 2020 as of today.

Roughly 45% of the country is strongly for him and another 45% strongly against him and we will see how this plays out. Most are strongly ensconced in their viewpoints and I am included in that. It would take a lot for me to drop my support of Trump unless some strong facts come forward which I have not seen yet. This campaign finance crap with Cohen is a joke....no crimes committed, but even if you can derive an infraction, its a civil offense that is only fined as evidenced by commissar obama having to pay a 375k fine in 2014 directed by his protector eric holder.

The state of NY thinks it has open season for an inquisition of his entire life...this is not right and should/better not happen. All of this Cohen crap started with a gestapo type raid on a lawyers office and this never happens in America except here....it was a fishing expedition designed to go after Trump. Parties in this thread talking rule of law have it flipped the wrong way in a distorted fashion since its against Trump.

I still rate higher odds of Hillary and Obama being put in gitmo than Trump being proven a traitor to America.

Scratch a lie, catch a thief my friend. You look past his lies without a blink. Why is that?

 

[nytigerfan]

Trump committed no crimes. The charged felons around him are collateral damage of the deep state hit put on him when he became the republican nominee. Yes Manafort committed unrelated crimes, but none that can be remotely connected to Trump in any way whatsoever at this point. The deep state coup attempt is still in progress today. I think he will not ever be charged with crimes, but may be impeached by the house. It will die in the senate. I say that he will run and win in 2020 as of today.

Roughly 45% of the country is strongly for him and another 45% strongly against him and we will see how this plays out. Most are strongly ensconced in their viewpoints and I am included in that. It would take a lot for me to drop my support of Trump unless some strong facts come forward which I have not seen yet. This campaign finance crap with Cohen is a joke....no crimes committed, but even if you can derive an infraction, its a civil offense that is only fined as evidenced by commissar obama having to pay a 375k fine in 2014 directed by his protector eric holder.

The state of NY thinks it has open season for an inquisition of his entire life...this is not right and should/better not happen. All of this Cohen crap started with a gestapo type raid on a lawyers office and this never happens in America except here....it was a fishing expedition designed to go after Trump. Parties in this thread talking rule of law have it flipped the wrong way in a distorted fashion since its against Trump.

I still rate higher odds of Hillary and Obama being put in gitmo than Trump being proven a traitor to America.

Breaking news, more crimes...

The Donald J. Trump Foundation has agreed to dissolve under judicial supervision amid an ongoing lawsuit concerning its finances, according to a document filed Tuesday in Manhattan Supreme Court by the New York state Attorney General's office.
The dissolution of President Donald Trump's charity resolves one element of the attorney general's civil lawsuit against the foundation, which includes claims that the President and his children violated campaign finance laws and abused its tax-exempt status. The lawsuit will continue in court because it also seeks two other outcomes: $2.8 million in restitution, plus penalties, and a ban on Trump and his three eldest children serving on the board of any other New York nonprofit.
The agreement to dissolve, signed by both the foundation and Attorney General Barbara Underwood's office, also allows the attorney general's office to review the recipients of the charity's assets. The most recent tax returnfiled by the foundation listed its net assets at slightly more than $1.7 million.
"Our petition detailed a shocking pattern of illegality involving the Trump Foundation -- including unlawful coordination with the Trump presidential campaign, repeated and willful self-dealing, and much more. This amounted to the Trump Foundation functioning as little more than a checkbook to serve Mr. Trump's business and political interests," Underwood said in a statement Tuesday.

 

[firegiver]

Breaking news, more crimes...

The Donald J. Trump Foundation has agreed to dissolve under judicial supervision amid an ongoing lawsuit concerning its finances, according to a document filed Tuesday in Manhattan Supreme Court by the New York state Attorney General's office.
The dissolution of President Donald Trump's charity resolves one element of the attorney general's civil lawsuit against the foundation, which includes claims that the President and his children violated campaign finance laws and abused its tax-exempt status. The lawsuit will continue in court because it also seeks two other outcomes: $2.8 million in restitution, plus penalties, and a ban on Trump and his three eldest children serving on the board of any other New York nonprofit.
The agreement to dissolve, signed by both the foundation and Attorney General Barbara Underwood's office, also allows the attorney general's office to review the recipients of the charity's assets. The most recent tax returnfiled by the foundation listed its net assets at slightly more than $1.7 million.
"Our petition detailed a shocking pattern of illegality involving the Trump Foundation -- including unlawful coordination with the Trump presidential campaign, repeated and willful self-dealing, and much more. This amounted to the Trump Foundation functioning as little more than a checkbook to serve Mr. Trump's business and political interests," Underwood said in a statement Tuesday.

It's ridiculous.

I'm predicting now, Mueller proves that Trump has been laundering money for Russian Oligarchs, through his realestate deals in NY. That its been happening for a long time.