OT - HVAC Question

[ClemsonMax]

I know we have some very knowledgeable HVAC people ( @idohvac2 ) (@scartiger i think also does HVAC) on the board and I'm sure some who have recently gone through the process of replacing their unit, so had a question for anyone to offer advice. So our upstairs unit has a Freon leak were all the Freon has leaked out and because the unit is 11 years old (Trane), it seems like it makes more financial sense to replace it, rather than try to find the leak, repair it, and refill it with the old Freon. So we're going to get a few quotes, but its also being suggested we should replace the duct work as well. Our duct work doesn't look amazing, but also doesn't look like its in that bad of shape. Is it pretty standard to replace the duct work as well when getting a new system, or is that more of an upsell? Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[scartiger]

I know we have some very knowledgeable HVAC people ( @idohvac2 ) (@scartiger i think also does HVAC) on the board and I'm sure some who have recently gone through the process of replacing their unit, so had a question for anyone to offer advice. So our upstairs unit has a Freon leak were all the Freon has leaked out and because the unit is 11 years old (Trane), it seems like it makes more financial sense to replace it, rather than try to find the leak, repair it, and refill it with the old Freon. So we're going to get a few quotes, but its also being suggested we should replace the duct work as well. Our duct work doesn't look amazing, but also doesn't look like its in that bad of shape. Is it pretty standard to replace the duct work as well when getting a new system, or is that more of an upsell? Thanks in advance for any advice.

@idohvac2 and @clempzenbill and I believe they are several more on board. I'm just a plumber.

 

[TigerDentGuy]

@idohvac2 and @clempzenbill and I bebelie they are several more on board. I'm just a plumber.

I need septic service. Not sure who to call in the piedmont area. Idea?
Edit Sorry for the hijack of thread

 

[scartiger]

I need septic service. Not sure who to call in the piedmont area. Idea?
Edit Sorry for the hijack of thread

Benji 864-444-7313 just tell him Sid said to call him.

 

[toogoodootgr]

@idohvac2 and @clempzenbill and I bebelie they are several more on board. I'm just a plumber.

A few things. Have they even looked for the leak? It might be a simple fix and much less than replacing everything. They make drop-in refrigerant to replace the old R-22 stuff. If the unit is only 11 years old then is might not even be R-22. It is hard to tell with the duct work. Unless you have some major issues, I would not see where the duct work would need to be replaced. I assume the duct is in the attic? You shouldn't have any moisture issues up there. I do commercial stuff, but I see this all the time when friends call about residential. The residential guys are always trying to up-sell. First, I would find out if they located the Freon leak. If it is in an evaporator coil, then it is possibly not repairable. Second, I would do a visual inspection of the duct work. If the insulation appears to be in decent shape and you do not have a mold issues, then I would just tape on any loose insulation and be done with that. Definitely get a second opinion, and ask questions.
Where is the leak? Have you searched for it?
What type of Freon does my unit use?
What is wrong with the duct work?
Why does all my duct work need to be replaced?

 

[ClemsonMax]

A few things. Have they even looked for the leak? It might be a simple fix and much less than replacing everything. They make drop-in refrigerant to replace the old R-22 stuff. If the unit is only 11 years old then is might not even be R-22. It is hard to tell with the duct work. Unless you have some major issues, I would not see where the duct work would need to be replaced. I assume the duct is in the attic? You shouldn't have any moisture issues up there. I do commercial stuff, but I see this all the time when friends call about residential. The residential guys are always trying to up-sell. First, I would find out if they located the Freon leak. If it is in an evaporator coil, then it is possibly not repairable. Second, I would do a visual inspection of the duct work. If the insulation appears to be in decent shape and you do not have a mold issues, then I would just tape on any loose insulation and be done with that. Definitely get a second opinion, and ask questions.
Where is the leak? Have you searched for it?
What type of Freon does my unit use?
What is wrong with the duct work?
Why does all my duct work need to be replaced?

Thanks for all the good info! Haven't looked yet, they came last night and tried to fix it, but that's when they diagnosed that as the issue. Coming back today to do some work while its not so late and see what they can find. He mentioned they might have to do a nitrogen test, but if they do that then the unit will be inoperable until that's complete and fixed, but the unit is off right now anyway since its not blowing any heat. The duct work doesn't look so bad, which is why I asked since it doesn't seam like its got any holes in the insulation and looks to be in pretty decent shape. But it is R-22, since he kept talking about how much its gone up in price and since its completely leaked out it will be quite expensive to refill. Will see what the tech says today, but now I have some better questions to ask. Thanks again.

 

[TBoyd83]

Out of curiosity how much would the new duct work cost?

 

[toogoodootgr]

Thanks for all the good info! Haven't looked yet, they came last night and tried to fix it, but that's when they diagnosed that as the issue. Coming back today to do some work while its not so late and see what they can find. He mentioned they might have to do a nitrogen test, but if they do that then the unit will be inoperable until that's complete and fixed, but the unit is off right now anyway since its not blowing any heat. The duct work doesn't look so bad, which is why I asked since it doesn't seam like its got any holes in the insulation and looks to be in pretty decent shape. But it is R-22, since he kept talking about how much its gone up in price and since its completely leaked out it will be quite expensive to refill. Will see what the tech says today, but now I have some better questions to ask. Thanks again.

No problem. They have replacement refrigerant for the r-22 now. It is much cheaper and lowers efficiency by a minimal amount. Nitrogen test is normal when trying to find a leak. Once the leak is fixed they pull a vacuum on the system an recharge with gas. All of that would be standard operating procedure. Let me know if you have any other questions.

 

[ClemsonMax]

Out of curiosity how much would the new duct work cost?

Haven't gotten an official quote. But guy said probably 1.5 -2k.

 

[FloridaTigerFan]

Thanks for all the good info! Haven't looked yet, they came last night and tried to fix it, but that's when they diagnosed that as the issue. Coming back today to do some work while its not so late and see what they can find. He mentioned they might have to do a nitrogen test, but if they do that then the unit will be inoperable until that's complete and fixed, but the unit is off right now anyway since its not blowing any heat. The duct work doesn't look so bad, which is why I asked since it doesn't seam like its got any holes in the insulation and looks to be in pretty decent shape. But it is R-22, since he kept talking about how much its gone up in price and since its completely leaked out it will be quite expensive to refill. Will see what the tech says today, but now I have some better questions to ask. Thanks again.

A Nitrogen test is standard to find leaks. The service tech will pull a vacuum on the R-22 and fill your system with nitrogen and rub soapy water around your system to locate leaks.

Please know, R-22 is a very efficient refrigerant... 10-20% more effective than the alternatives. It is just expensive to replace and keep adding to a leak. I think R-22 is running about $14- $20 a lbs at wholesale to a licensed HVAC. You probably will pay $40 to $50 a pound. I had to buy 350 lbs for a chiller last week and it was $14.50 lbs for us here in Little Rock, AR.

407c is the R-22 conversion, but you may have to replace your coils on the interior air handler to do the conversion. If your replacing the outside condenser unit, you can still buy a replacement unit that ships with Nitrogen, and a service company can charge with R-22 once installed. I know Trane sells them, there is just a longer lead-time.

Good luck with everything!

I work for Trane on the commercial division for some of their special services. I was finance major from Clemson now acting like a mechanical engineer each day at work.

 

[CU1TruTiger4Life]

Solar panels is the wat to go op.

 

[clemsonkelly]

Remember your new system is only as good as your ductwork, also if you are with sce&g they are offering 300 and 500 dollar rebates depending on seer rating, they are also offering a rebate on ductwork, Daikin is offering a 12 year parts and Labor Warranty, 6 year condenser replacement if compressor fails in year 1-6.
Most systems come with 10 year parts and labor warranty.
Get several quotes but dont jump on the lowest

 

[ClemsonMax]

So they found a leak at suction line joint at air handler. They said that it looked too small to be the only leak. Also said the line wasn’t big enough for what it needs to be. Said they could replace the line set for about 1600 but since the system ran dry for a little bit not sure exactly what it would run like once replaced and filled back up. Other option was replacement. 8600 for 3 ton 15 seer 12700 for 3 ton 16 seer. Lennox systems as that’s all they sell and said they have performed well and I’m sure it’s financially beneficial to their company as well. Both include electrical, drain, line set, and install. Will get another company out for another quote but they’ve been pretty good to me through the years. They’re a little higher priced but they always get to me same day whenever I have had an issue.

 

[Ltb378]

I sell HVAC in Charlotte area. Let me know if you need help

 

[OrangeTigerTower]

Those install prices are about double what Im paying in York County....

 

[ClemsonMax]

Those install prices are about double what Im paying in York County....

Yeah getting another company out to see what they quote. If they are close that’s one thing, but if they are far apart will probably need a third for a better idea. They say the most important part is who does the install, but would imagine most of the companies who have been around for a long time are all pretty good.

 

[toogoodootgr]

So they found a leak at suction line joint at air handler. They said that it looked too small to be the only leak. Also said the line wasn’t big enough for what it needs to be. Said they could replace the line set for about 1600 but since the system ran dry for a little bit not sure exactly what it would run like once replaced and filled back up. Other option was replacement. 8600 for 3 ton 15 seer 12700 for 3 ton 16 seer. Lennox systems as that’s all they sell and said they have performed well and I’m sure it’s financially beneficial to their company as well. Both include electrical, drain, line set, and install. Will get another company out for another quote but they’ve been pretty good to me through the years. They’re a little higher priced but they always get to me same day whenever I have had an issue.

That seems extremely high

 

[ClemsonMax]

That seems extremely high

That's what I was thinking as well. Called the office this morning and that was the finance price, the non finance price for 15 seer is 8,158 and 16 is 11,435. And have another company coming out tomorrow to give me another quote to compare.

 

[OrangeTigerTower]

For reference I had a 3 ton package unit installed and all duct work replaced in a small rental house recently. I paid $4,400 total.
Now it was a smaller home and crawl space is walkable, all duct in crawl etc. So not totally apples to apples but $8k seems insane

 

[ClemsonMax]

For reference I had a 3 ton package unit installed and all duct work replaced in a small rental house recently. I paid $4,400 total.
Now it was a smaller home and crawl space is walkable, all duct in crawl etc. So not totally apples to apples but $8k seems insane

That sounds way better heh and hopefully tomorrow I get a quote more in the 6k range.

 

[ClemsonMax]

Got a 2nd quote. Right around 7.5k. So looks like for what we reason this an above average install. But at least they agreed the ductwork was in good enough shape it doesn’t need to be replaced.

 

[Ltb378]

- Make sure they give you info that the return & supply is large enough (duct and grill sizes) Lack of airflow is the #1 problem with new installs, most duct systems are originally undersized.
- if it’s a split system (ac outside / furnace inside) ask about the line set size and their charging methods
- make sure your labor warranty is clearly laid out on what’s covered & what’s not
- technically, a “financed price & “non financed price” is illegal. But if your getting a 0% rate (usually thru Wells Fargo) there is financing fees hidden in the price


Hope it helps, good luck!

 

[ClemsonMax]

- Make sure they give you info that the return & supply is large enough (duct and grill sizes) Lack of airflow is the #1 problem with new installs, most duct systems are originally undersized.
- if it’s a split system (ac outside / furnace inside) ask about the line set size and their charging methods
- make sure your labor warranty is clearly laid out on what’s covered & what’s not
- technically, a “financed price & “non financed price” is illegal. But if your getting a 0% rate (usually thru Wells Fargo) there is financing fees hidden in the price


Hope it helps, good luck!

Thanks so much for the advice. I asked most of those. Just didn’t get specifics on the line set size. I just know they said they were going to go a little bigger. And they offered a price financed through them or a check price. We’re doing the check price since it’s cheaper but interesting to hear that’s not really legal.

 

[ClemsonMax]

Surprised if its semi-illegal to give a check discount, they put on the actual invoice -406 check discount. But thanks again for all the advice everyone. We are back in action!