OT: Police Reform

[CreoleTiger]

Amazing, when this subject became the forefront of the American consciousness in 2020 my suggestions were as follows:
1. Manipulate existing municipal budgets to significantly increase the pay of all first responders. The result would be an increase in quality of the applicants for these positions.
2. Make the right type of continuous self defense training mandatory. You stop training for any reasons beyond injury or sickness, you lose your job. Self defense training should be at least in part, conducted on the clock.
3. Institute mandatory yearly physical fitness test as part of continued employment with age related adjustments to the standards included.

 

[pwjacks]

Okay...here goes. 30 year RETIRED with 25 years as a Federal Officer.
Most of you have ZERO idea about whats it like by yourself in the middle of nowhere when some person wants to go off on you.
Most have seen the videos of Atlanta and other places where 2,3,4 grown men are still not enough to get control of one single guy.
Most of you would simply freeze, let the guy grab a gun or a knife and send YOU to your grave.
Most would never stand there and have people call you the most horrible names 2 inches from your face, or have attorneys continually question your morale and ethical values regardless how strong they are.
Most protesters who have some opinion about police reforms, non lethal weapons, or how THEY would do it....would be killed, resign, or be in hospital after 30 days.
I have been a firearms trainer, hostage negotiator, alcohol and drug specialist, and prison reform activist.
With all that...lets take people like LeBron and whom ever else would like to go through some serious scenario training and see if their attitude changes. Im betting it will.
God bless the blue. They dont call it the THIN blue line for nothing.

I will never forget the feeling I had when I was riding with the BIL one night and he tried to pull over a car running down the road with no headlights. Blue lighted him, didn't slow down, didn't speed up, didn't stop. Blue lights and siren, didn't slow down, didn't speed up, didn't stop, but finally pulled over a mile or so down the road in a very rural area. BIL had audio on so I could hear him. I was terrified the guy was going to pull a gun. BIL called me a pu&&y. I realized I was....

 

[fatpiggy]

In addition to more training for officers .... where are the people screaming for people to STOP RESISTING. Don't resist, don't get shot.

 

[jmm45]

Agree 1000% with this. Just had a conversation with co-workers on this. inexcusable in my opinion that multiple officers at the scene could not restrain these individuals.

I think I understand the premise of this post but don’t think inexcusable is the appropriate word here. Not jumping you at all, but have you ever had to subdue someone who REALLY didn’t want to be? Sometimes you just lose because you got beat too. This is why tasers and certain holds are used - incredibly effective.

I can assure you, no matter how strong or big you may be, it’s not easy. Add certain drugs or booze to the mix and it can be amplified. Some form of martial arts training would be fantastic for all LE, and in specific disciplines that rely on holds and submissions are better.

For the OP - thank you for what you do.

 

[nytigerfan]

Unfortunately no, I still treated them the same and also gave him a warning. I don’t treat people different. It’s not personal to me and I will say that is a area that needs changing. We have way to many hot heads.

That is great that you approach it that way. I have a good friend in the DEA, he was one of the agents that built the case against and got Chris Coke in Jamaica extradited to the US. He told me that his approach is always friendly, never take anything personally. With CI's, drug lords in cuffs, whatever, he is always friendly and it makes it easier to get cooperation. He was even friendly to the hit man who liked to decapitate people and carry their heads around.

I also recently read Malcolm Gladwell's book Talking to Strangers. He interviews the guy who essentially developed the police practice of stopping people for minor infractions and then seeing what else you can bust them for. He said in the interview that he envisioned these tactics being used everywhere, but unfortunately they were used primarily - and in some cases exclusively - in poor minority neighborhoods. I think years of that has led to the massive distrust that these folks have for the police. Those policies either need to be enforced the same way everywhere or abandoned.

 

[wmnesbitt]

Cris please don’t move this to round table because I feel like it will have good discussion.

Guys I am a police officer and I see so many people say we need police reform so I just wanted to see what people think could be done on the reform side. I will start with a couple things. Police are so short staffed that it is hard to find quality people to fill the positions. Start with higher pay and much more tighter hiring practices. Second in the 4th circuit which includes SC we aren’t allowed to use a taser anymore unless the subject is physically aggressive toward us or if they are a threat to society ex. a person wanted for murder running from you would be a exigent circumstance. They need to change this ruling because it has now caused more officers to have to go hands on and start a physical encounter with the subject vs tasing a verbally resisting subject. Tasers are very safe and effective when used properly. Lastly officers need mandatory BJJ training paid for by the dept. Officers desperately need to be trained in how to control subjects on the ground. The last two controversial police shootings (Atlanta, Wisconsin) have come when multiple officers couldn’t control the suspect on the ground and let him get up. If these officers are trained in this and the subject is placed into custody on the ground then these shootings never happened. Please respond respectfully, thank you.

Thank you so much for what you do. I think many LEO are pretty aligned with your thinking as well.

It is sad, but honestly, with every encounter being filmed and broadcast showing the LEO in a bad light even when they act appropriately this is a no win situation. Taze someone - Media jumps on it, wrestle someone to ground - Media jumps on it. Baton some on - Media jumps on it, choke hold - ban it, shoot someone for resisting because all other actions failed - we have where we are today.

We need effective measures agreed upon nationwide. Tazing, batons, rubber bullets, last resort firearms etc. Publish that. Train to that. and do that. Then when a cop tazes someone and everyone want to make a publicity stunt, we are all like - "cool, cop did what she/he was supposed to" Taze, then baton when taze failed - criminal has a broken leg and bloody nose, we will all say "well he should have stayed down after he was tazed"

I don't now the real answer, no one does. All I know is that whatever it is will never be enough for everyone.

 

[nsp1996]

Some great suggestions here. I would also suggest that we need to work on hiring more from the local communities. It would help if the police looked like the people that they were protecting and serving. I also wonder at everyone, particularly our conservative brethren who are very opposed to tax increases suggesting pay increases and expanded training for officers. Where do we get these funds from?

Well, we could make people prove that they are legal citizens before receiving government aid. There is one place that we could find a bunch of money.

 

[nsp1996]

You absolutely don't want to have to "hold someone back". Someone mentioned that it's difficult to tell if it's a violent cop, or if they are racist. I totally agree,but it's hard to blame people for feeling that it's racist if it's primarily white cops against people of color. We have got to diversify our departments.

Yes and that's why we have people like Kapernick and NBA basketball teams, and rap artists and demonstrators coming together to promote young kids getting an education and staying out of trouble and holding up law enforcement as a worthy profession to aspire to. Which is helping but will take time...

Oh, wait.

 

[clintontiger1]

Thank you so much for what you do. I think many LEO are pretty aligned with your thinking as well.

It is sad, but honestly, with every encounter being filmed and broadcast showing the LEO in a bad light even when they act appropriately this is a no win situation. Taze someone - Media jumps on it, wrestle someone to ground - Media jumps on it. Baton some on - Media jumps on it, choke hold - ban it, shoot someone for resisting because all other actions failed - we have where we are today.

We need effective measures agreed upon nationwide. Tazing, batons, rubber bullets, last resort firearms etc. Publish that. Train to that. and do that. Then when a cop tazes someone and everyone want to make a publicity stunt, we are all like - "cool, cop did what she/he was supposed to" Taze, then baton when taze failed - criminal has a broken leg and bloody nose, we will all say "well he should have stayed down after he was tazed"

I don't now the real answer, no one does. All I know is that whatever it is will never be enough for everyone.

Thanks for the response, I agree that social media has killed race relations. I mean killed it.

 

[nsp1996]

Thanks for the response, I agree that social media has killed race relations. I mean killed it.

Not that it means anything, but I tend to agree. Not only social media, but media in general. Because in general if there is a way to play towards calm, rational sensibilities or to spin something waaay up the mainstream media will in most cases spin it up. Ratings!

 

[clintontiger1]

I will also give you a point about more specialized MMA training. I bring in my son who is 15 and weighs 150 pounds from time to time to let rookies try and handcuff him. I realized wrestling with him on the floor at home that he is a absolute handful and he has no training. Guess what one on one or two on one they can’t cuff him 75 percent of the time doing it the proper academy taught way. I tell you this so you can see how impossible this job is. I will say that we do have a officer who has had some MMA training and he has hardly any issue with getting him to comply.

 

[Casa_del_Tigre]

Cris please don’t move this to round table because I feel like it will have good discussion.

Guys I am a police officer and I see so many people say we need police reform so I just wanted to see what people think could be done on the reform side. I will start with a couple things. Police are so short staffed that it is hard to find quality people to fill the positions. Start with higher pay and much more tighter hiring practices. Second in the 4th circuit which includes SC we aren’t allowed to use a taser anymore unless the subject is physically aggressive toward us or if they are a threat to society ex. a person wanted for murder running from you would be a exigent circumstance. They need to change this ruling because it has now caused more officers to have to go hands on and start a physical encounter with the subject vs tasing a verbally resisting subject. Tasers are very safe and effective when used properly. Lastly officers need mandatory BJJ training paid for by the dept. Officers desperately need to be trained in how to control subjects on the ground. The last two controversial police shootings (Atlanta, Wisconsin) have come when multiple officers couldn’t control the suspect on the ground and let him get up. If these officers are trained in this and the subject is placed into custody on the ground then these shootings never happened. Please respond respectfully, thank you.

Honest question: Do you not have issue with police spending millions on military grade toys while not paying cops anything?

My views are like all things government. More money = shittier government product. Public education funding is another great example.

Easiest fix would be legalize weed. Weeds only purpose now is to give a cop a reason to harass citizens. Remove weed laws and fix the problem. It’s alarming the rate of black people i see being detained why cops are looking for weed.

 

[clintontiger1]

Honest question: Do you not have issue with police spending millions on military grade toys while not paying cops anything?

My views are like all things government. More money = shittier government product. Public education funding is another great example.

Easiest fix would be legalize weed. Weeds only purpose now is to give a cop a reason to harass citizens. Remove weed laws and fix the problem. It’s alarming the rate of black people i see being detained why cops are looking for weed.

Thanks for the reply. Almost all military equipment is given to local police through programs. We have some and didn’t spend a dime. Now whether we need it is a different thing but it’s not about money. I am totally on board with the weed thing. I have yet worked a marijuana infused murder or violent crime but I can tell you countless incidents of alcohol fueled things. So I totally understand.

 

[cred0021]

Not a training question but organizational: would we better off getting rid of city police and have all law enforcement under sheriff departments? Too many sorry mayors and city officials that seem to hamstring city police departments. And sheriffs are elected officials that basically report to the governor - seems like it would be a more efficient organization, and we can technically vote the bad ones out of office. Of course, I realize sheriffs in the South have some issues, too (I live in Florence, so...)

 

[treetiger]

I know that when my sister was acting up when she was young, my parents sent her to John de la Howe School in McCormick, SC. Maybe they could have a reform school for police officers? (satire!!!)

 

[Casa_del_Tigre]

Thanks for the reply. Almost all military equipment is given to local police through programs. We have some and didn’t spend a dime. Now whether we need it is a different thing but it’s not about money. I am totally on board with the weed thing. I have yet worked a marijuana infused murder or violent crime but I can tell you countless incidents of alcohol fueled things. So I totally understand.

I’ve only be arrested once back in college: and it was while hammered drunk lol.

 

[tigrbybirth]

Cris please don’t move this to round table because I feel like it will have good discussion.

Guys I am a police officer and I see so many people say we need police reform so I just wanted to see what people think could be done on the reform side. I will start with a couple things. Police are so short staffed that it is hard to find quality people to fill the positions. Start with higher pay and much more tighter hiring practices. Second in the 4th circuit which includes SC we aren’t allowed to use a taser anymore unless the subject is physically aggressive toward us or if they are a threat to society ex. a person wanted for murder running from you would be a exigent circumstance. They need to change this ruling because it has now caused more officers to have to go hands on and start a physical encounter with the subject vs tasing a verbally resisting subject. Tasers are very safe and effective when used properly. Lastly officers need mandatory BJJ training paid for by the dept. Officers desperately need to be trained in how to control subjects on the ground. The last two controversial police shootings (Atlanta, Wisconsin) have come when multiple officers couldn’t control the suspect on the ground and let him get up. If these officers are trained in this and the subject is placed into custody on the ground then these shootings never happened. Please respond respectfully, thank you.

I'll restrict my comments to things I at least think I understand. What you say wrt taser use and training to take subjects into custody on the ground make a lot of sense but I don't know enough to comment intelligently.

That out of the way, officer pay, funding for training, and scrutiny in the hiring process rise to the top of my list. I also think we need a more independent investigative arm for police infractions. I'm sure there are dozen more things but those hit me as priority.

Law enforcement officers are underpaid for what they do. Because of that, you get people who are committed to making the world better and are willing to take less in pay because of their character. Over time, however, those people will have families and many will make the decision to pursue more lucrative employment if it is available to them. That means we will lose some of the best and brightest and keep some that can't get work elsewhere. We'll also keep some dedicated professionals but I'm just talking in generalities.

Another group that will take lower pay are people who want the power of being in control of others. Those are the ones who are more likely to abuse their authority. They are also the ones who will respond with force when their authority is challenged. Generally, this type of officer will have less confidence in themselves and more prone to see challenges where none exist.

Let's just take the example of an officer who pulls over a black couple. That couple may have been pulled over before for what they view as an unjust reason. They may approach the situation expecting a racist officer. They may have an attitude. It's also possible that the non-driver has been drinking and has all those same feelings. An officer lacking in self confidence and enjoying a feeling of power is likely to escalate rather than deescalate the situation. I watched this very scenario play out a couple years ago and the husband got shot.

If we pay more and are more selective in the hiring process, we are less likely to see this scenario play out again. It will take both because we won't be able to fill open jobs with the perfect candidates if salaries aren't competitive with what high caliber candidates can make somewhere else. In fact, salaries need to be higher because these folks are putting their lives at risk.

Lastly, we need significantly more and better investment in training. The OP cited training on taking someone into custody while on the ground. That's an excellent example. We need training on how to calm things down. We need training on when an officer should let a suspect go. There are hundreds of scenarios where letting the guy go makes sense but I doubt there is any training course that says it's okay. (would love to be wrong on this one) I'm thinking specifically of the Atlanta shooting in the fast food parking lot. The cops had his car and had seen his driver's license. It was an intense situation and I'm sure adrenaline kicked in but letting that go would not hurt anyone. It would actually have gone worse for him. His car would have been towed and he would have been arrested in his home the next day.

 

[JAMCRACKER99]

Thank you for your service sir. What police officers deal with on a daily basis and never knowing who you are dealing with or what their intentions are is extremely stressful. It takes a special person to do the job.

I would agree with my niece who is a police officer in that they need more money to attract a larger and more qualified pool of candidates, stricter minimum hiring qualifications, more training, stricter disciplinary measures, etc.

With all that being said, I see no reason why, regarding the most recent examples of police violence, people were shot or killed. No reason at all.

 

[clintontiger1]

Not a training question but organizational: would we better off getting rid of city police and have all law enforcement under sheriff departments? Too many sorry mayors and city officials that seem to hamstring city police departments. And sheriffs are elected officials that basically report to the governor - seems like it would be a more efficient organization, and we can technically vote the bad ones out of office. Of course, I realize sheriffs in the South have some issues, too (I live in Florence, so...)

Yeah I don’t think that would help. We have a lot of problem sheriffs in our state. I think it’s a good idea if done right though

 

[dandeman330]

Thanks for your service. What's you thoughts on increasing social workers to handle some of these domestic disputes? Seems like police are a catch all to handle situations that they are not completely trained for. Obviously there are certain situations that would require a LEO when there are weapons involved.

 

[CUTiger81]

Good thread and lots of good suggestions. Here are my thoughts:

1. Some basic level of BJJ training on a monthly basis is essential. I know Rener Gracie's gym in Southern California has programs specifically designed to work with police officers. Maybe you spend 1 day a month, paid for by the department, training at a qualified gym. You don't need to be a world class black belt but just a basic understand of how to manage distance and control them from the guard or the back is critical for the job IMO.

Now...with that being said, there are several issues: a) learning to control a suspect once they're down is one thing, getting them to the ground is an entirely different skillset....especially for a 50 year old officer dealing with a more athletic 25 year old suspect; b) we have to educate the public on the use of these techniques....if an officer subdues a suspect and chokes him unconscious, this is not police brutality or excessive use of force....this is a safe way to control a non-compliant offender without causing long-term damage; c) physical confrontation should be a 2nd to last resort (ahead of deadly force)...it's not fair to ask an officer who knows very little about a suspect or what they have in their possession to engage in a grappling scenario. What if he has a knife? What if he has a gun? What if he catches you on the button and knocks you out? What if he gets your weapon in the scrum? All of which could cost an officer their life.

2. The use of a taser or pepper spray needs to be available to all officers in scenarios where a suspect is not obeying legal commands.

3. Body cams for all officers.

4. And the most important, greater emphasis on hiring practices. We should know about someone's mental health history, their background, their intentions, their qualifications, etc....before putting them in the police academy.

 

[clintontiger1]

I'll restrict my comments to things I at least think I understand. What you say wrt taser use and training to take subjects into custody on the ground make a lot of sense but I don't know enough to comment intelligently.

That out of the way, officer pay, funding for training, and scrutiny in the hiring process rise to the top of my list. I also think we need a more independent investigative arm for police infractions. I'm sure there are dozen more things but those hit me as priority.

Law enforcement officers are underpaid for what they do. Because of that, you get people who are committed to making the world better and are willing to take less in pay because of their character. Over time, however, those people will have families and many will make the decision to pursue more lucrative employment if it is available to them. That means we will lose some of the best and brightest and keep some that can't get work elsewhere. We'll also keep some dedicated professionals but I'm just talking in generalities.

Another group that will take lower pay are people who want the power of being in control of others. Those are the ones who are more likely to abuse their authority. They are also the ones who will respond with force when their authority is challenged. Generally, this type of officer will have less confidence in themselves and more prone to see challenges where none exist.

Let's just take the example of an officer who pulls over a black couple. That couple may have been pulled over before for what they view as an unjust reason. They may approach the situation expecting a racist officer. They may have an attitude. It's also possible that the non-driver has been drinking and has all those same feelings. An officer lacking in self confidence and enjoying a feeling of power is likely to escalate rather than deescalate the situation. I watched this very scenario play out a couple years ago and the husband got shot.

If we pay more and are more selective in the hiring process, we are less likely to see this scenario play out again. It will take both because we won't be able to fill open jobs with the perfect candidates if salaries aren't competitive with what high caliber candidates can make somewhere else. In fact, salaries need to be higher because these folks are putting their lives at risk.

Lastly, we need significantly more and better investment in training. The OP cited training on taking someone into custody while on the ground. That's an excellent example. We need training on how to calm things down. We need training on when an officer should let a suspect go. There are hundreds of scenarios where letting the guy go makes sense but I doubt there is any training course that says it's okay. (would love to be wrong on this one) I'm thinking specifically of the Atlanta shooting in the fast food parking lot. The cops had his car and had seen his driver's license. It was an intense situation and I'm sure adrenaline kicked in but letting that go would not hurt anyone. It would actually have gone worse for him. His car would have been towed and he would have been arrested in his home the next day.

I see what your saying and I’ll be honest I’ve never thought about just letting someone go. Unfortunately I think this will lead to more problems. If criminals think if they resist we will just let them go will spread and everyone will be fighting. Secondly we rarely find the person the next day when they do get away. Heck we still haven’t found people from 2 years ago that got away. I just don’t think it’s feasible.

 

[clintontiger1]

Good thread and lots of good suggestions. Here are my thoughts:

1. Some basic level of BJJ training on a monthly basis is essential. I know Rener Gracie's gym in Southern California has programs specifically designed to work with police officers. Maybe you spend 1 day a month, paid for by the department, training at a qualified gym. You don't need to be a world class black belt but just a basic understand of how to manage distance and control them from the guard or the back is critical for the job IMO.

Now...with that being said, there are several issues: a) learning to control a suspect once they're down is one thing, getting them to the ground is an entirely different skillset....especially for a 50 year old officer dealing with a more athletic 25 year old suspect; b) we have to educate the public on the use of these techniques....if an officer subdues a suspect and chokes him unconscious, this is not police brutality or excessive use of force....this is a safe way to control a non-compliant offender without causing long-term damage; c) physical confrontation should be a 2nd to last resort (ahead of deadly force)...it's not fair to ask an officer who knows very little about a suspect or what they have in their possession to engage in a grappling scenario. What if he has a knife? What if he has a gun? What if he catches you on the button and knocks you out? What if he gets your weapon in the scrum? All of which could cost an officer their life.

2. The use of a taser or pepper spray needs to be available to all officers in scenarios where a suspect is not obeying legal commands.

3. Body cams for all officers.

4. And the most important, greater emphasis on hiring practices. We should know about someone's mental health history, their background, their intentions, they qualifications, etc....before putting them in the police academy.

Awesome response and agree with all you said

 

[clintontiger1]

Thanks for your service. What's you thoughts on increasing social workers to handle some of these domestic disputes? Seems like police are a catch all to handle situations that they are not completely trained for. Obviously there are certain situations that would require a LEO when there are weapons involved.

Yes, yes and yes. Would love for them to be there to mediate the situation and be a voice. Two problems, funding and those calls are so violent and go from 0-100 in seconds I just do t know if it would be possible. It would also be one other person on scene that I would to protect, however I would give it a try

 

[muddy05tiger]

I also recently read Malcolm Gladwell's book Talking to Strangers. He interviews the guy who essentially developed the police practice of stopping people for minor infractions and then seeing what else you can bust them for. He said in the interview that he envisioned these tactics being used everywhere, but unfortunately they were used primarily - and in some cases exclusively - in poor minority neighborhoods. I think years of that has led to the massive distrust that these folks have for the police. Those policies either need to be enforced the same way everywhere or abandoned.

And Gladwell came to the very conclusion that we shouldn't be using those tactics outside of crime-ridden areas for the very reason it creates animosity against LE nationwide. Sandra Bland would still be alive if that tactic was NOT used just outside of Prairie View A&M.

I don't remember the inventor of that tactic believing it should be used everywhere. My recollection was that it was supposed to be used in a very focused area (e.g. one city block), not widespread.

 

[IETiger81]

To the poster about de-escalating training. I will say this, we get a good amount of training on this and unfortunately if you were in this job you would see that most of the subjects we deal with de-escalation just simply doesn’t work.

Can you elaborate on this? Why don't these techniques work and etc? I have a good friend and he spouts "de-escalation" ad nauseum.

 

[m_l_murphy]

Not a training question but organizational: would we better off getting rid of city police and have all law enforcement under sheriff departments? Too many sorry mayors and city officials that seem to hamstring city police departments. And sheriffs are elected officials that basically report to the governor - seems like it would be a more efficient organization, and we can technically vote the bad ones out of office. Of course, I realize sheriffs in the South have some issues, too (I live in Florence, so...)

The elected law enforcement officials in the area where I live are crooked as dogs' hind legs. I have lived here for 32 years & in that time the county has had 2 sheriffs. Both of their careers in LE ended when they declined to run for reelection in exchange for not being prosecuted. Needless to say, I don't have much confidence in our local law enforcement.

 

[gcsoccer16]

Stop resisting arrest may help too. When a law enforcement officer tells you to do something it's probably best to do what they say. Reaching into the car with the guns already drawn seems like a very very stupid thing to do.

When do the criminals take responsibility for their actions?

 

[Ole Tom]

Last year 55 police officers were feloniously killed while performing their jobs. The police killed ~1000 people in the line of duty. We need to lower both of those numbers.

 

[Clemblack]

Why?

Some of the best Police officers are former Military leaders who are highly trained/skilled at it. More so than a college kid with his Undergraduate degree ever will be.

@clintontiger1 - thank you for your Service in a very difficult time right now. Alot of people really can't appreciate it enough.

Unfortunately, it seems alot of the people screaming "Police Reform" are also the same ones clamoring to "Defund the Police" as well.

Some of the suggestions and discussion points itt do make sense. Constant training to handle the evolving changes and actions in our society. I think the Urban areas, the Local Officials need to support the Police better than they have been. Disgusting what the Mayor of NYC has been doing to the Police force there.

Be safe!

For the same reason any occupation would require a degree.

I'm an insurance adjuster. Had to have a degree to get the job. And I don't arrest people or carry a gun.

 

[clemsonu0219]

What is TARGET DISCRIMINATION ??? These officers were calked thise locations. Please explain.

Shoot/no shoot. It’s training that helps you identify actual threats vs non. So the idea is to be able to more efficiently identify when someone is actually trying to kill you vs not.

Split second decisions.

So, for example, one target will have a picture of a man holding a snickers bar with a mean looking face (NO SHOOT).

Another the same, or similar, that’s holding a Pistol pointed at you (SHOOT).

These scenarios also helps to identify when someone is too trigger happy and needs even more training or perhaps isn’t fit for the job.

 

[muddy05tiger]

For the same reason any occupation would require a degree.

I'm an insurance adjuster. Had to have a degree to get the job. And I don't arrest people or carry a gun.

Dr. Moise in the History dept is a very proud draft-dodger. He also said during one of our classes that if the US military had more ppl like him, we wouldnt have had the violence against civilian issues we had during Vietnam. See the contradiction?

If a person has a degree and can work as an insurance adjuster (or like for a bank like I do), why would we go deal with violence, be called every name in the book, have piss & sh!t thrown us, etc.? We won't. Even if you make competitive for what we make now we won't. Many of the LE you see committing these acts now are unionized and making even more than you or I.

Requiring a degree solves nothing. It's just another arbitrary requirement thrown out.

 

[HisDudeliness57]

I’m proud of this thread for staying civil. I think there has been some great discussion with even better suggestions. Wanted to share a bit of sad news, which might also explain why some cops act the way they do. https://apple.news/AFyEvQLjvTaiaVB0C2YR9VA

yea I know it’s Fox News. But couldn’t find the story anywhere else. I also don’t have a political party, so don’t take it there please

 

[ThunderYLightning]

Couple of thoughts...

* Recruiting: Would something like the G.I. Bill attract ambitious candidates and simultaneously increase the level of education across the board?

* Body cams:

4. Universal body cams. Absolutely.

I am in the video industry and speak with LE professionals on a fairly regular basis. Not one person Ive interviewed about video in LE is stoked about camera footage available live (without the opportunity to review first). I would say there is an internal struggle with the ubiquitous use of body cams and no one in LE is going to march to the State or Fed clamoring for legislature.

 

[tallulahtiger30319]

Excellent topic. Completely agree on the staffing problems, hiring issues, etc. Here's a couple initial thoughts on my end.

- Training definitely needs updating, you mentioned BJJ as something that should be mandatory, and that taser rules should be relaxed so we hopefully have less lethal force used when situations spiral quickly. But we also need to stop training cops as if they're militant mercenaries. Yes, they need to be law enforcement, skilled with lawful use of their weapon, etc...but they also need to know & respect the law, and be able to act as peacekeepers, law enforcers, and have actual skills in de-escalation.

- The "few bad apples" argument can't fly any more. It's just not acceptable. Some jobs just can't have bad members, and if you find them, you move on from them without a ton of extra chances. I'd say the vast majority of Americans understand that it's an incredibly stressful, often traumatic job. But it's such an important one that the bad apples need to be tossed aside much quicker. We can't have more Derek Chauvins with 15+ serious allegations / infractions on his work record, yet still he's on the street as a cop terrorizing the public that he's supposed to be protecting. Identify those bad seeds early and get rid of them. Hire slowly, fire quickly. The "bad apples" are the minority, we all know that....but they're kept on duty far too often and for far too long, and it's a big reason they spoil the reputation of the good officers, and the good work the majority of the police is doing. We don't allow commercial airline pilots to keep flying after "just a few crashes"...because of the importance and impact of their job on the public. We need to treat bad police the same way. I'd bet the majority of public complaints against officers in a department are against a small group of repeat offender cops. Cleaning up individual departments would be a big step in the right direction towards rebuilding a positive public perception of police.

Agree, but good luck getting that story out. Do you really think the media will report on it?

 

[agantt]

Any police reform bill should include a min 10 sentence w/o parole for anyone resisting arrest, there are very little consequences for resisting arrest...make the criminals think twice about fighting an officer. No one wants to get to the core of the problem, if you comply with officers legal command there won't be an issue. Society has got to start teaching people to have respect for authority, they don't have respect for teachers when young, their parents and school admin don't back the teachers.....and the problem grows from there. Also no one mentions that in 2019 there were twice as many unarmed white Americans killed in police confrontations as African Americans (19w-9b). I do agree that every law enforcement officer needs a body cam as well as open freedom to use taser to subdue unruly assailant. People with cell phone cameras rarely get the entire confrontation then the media cuts that down further to fit their narrative.
Thank you for your service OP.

 

[clintontiger1]

I believe that body cams are one of our most useful tools out there. If your a department that can afford them you should definitely have them. If you can afford them and don’t your doing your officers and your citizens a disservice.
About de-escalation, basically it’s verbal judo and yes we train on it a good bit. The reason it doesn’t work is if you show up on scene and they are hell bent on not listening, being aggressive, not following simple orders and physically resisting arrest there is no de-escalation technique that will work. Plus now everyone thinks we are the bad guys so it’s just getting worse to try and reason with people.

 

[clintontiger1]

Guys I also want to ad that statistics can be skewed and sometimes don’t point out a accurate picture.

 

[tallulahtiger30319]

The military is a double edged sword. Unfortunately we haven’t had a lot of luck with them. They have been to militarized and rough around the edges. Just personally speaking with us. The 4th circuit has no clue and says its excessive force but it’s a hell of a lot better than killing people. Yes Gracie is the best out there geared towards LE but good luck getting depts to fund it. We desperately need more training.

OK, the training is expensive and likely too expensive for the department to absorb into an already ridiculously lean budget. So how about getting super creative and out f the box? I would bet most good officers would be happy to give up a Saturday or Sunday or 2 to get going in the direction of better policing and better community relations. And I bet the communities served would be motivated to get involved in helping create better police officers. Maybe find a BJJ instructor in the community who would volunteer his services to help the Officers learn. Win-Win.

Definitely not ideal, but it might just work. This or something equally out of the box. I don't know. Just seems like we can't give up just because it's complicated.

 

[Jwilliamsiii]

I’m proud of this thread for staying civil. I think there has been some great discussion with even better suggestions. Wanted to share a bit of sad news, which might also explain why some cops act the way they do. https://apple.news/AFyEvQLjvTaiaVB0C2YR9VA

yea I know it’s Fox News. But couldn’t find the story anywhere else. I also don’t have a political party, so don’t take it there please

That was sad and tragic. Not surprised it didn’t make national news other than fox tho. Prayers for that family.