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OT: Police Reform

clintontiger1

Valles Marineris
Gold Member
Oct 27, 2011
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Cris please don’t move this to round table because I feel like it will have good discussion.

Guys I am a police officer and I see so many people say we need police reform so I just wanted to see what people think could be done on the reform side. I will start with a couple things. Police are so short staffed that it is hard to find quality people to fill the positions. Start with higher pay and much more tighter hiring practices. Second in the 4th circuit which includes SC we aren’t allowed to use a taser anymore unless the subject is physically aggressive toward us or if they are a threat to society ex. a person wanted for murder running from you would be a exigent circumstance. They need to change this ruling because it has now caused more officers to have to go hands on and start a physical encounter with the subject vs tasing a verbally resisting subject. Tasers are very safe and effective when used properly. Lastly officers need mandatory BJJ training paid for by the dept. Officers desperately need to be trained in how to control subjects on the ground. The last two controversial police shootings (Atlanta, Wisconsin) have come when multiple officers couldn’t control the suspect on the ground and let him get up. If these officers are trained in this and the subject is placed into custody on the ground then these shootings never happened. Please respond respectfully, thank you.
 
Cris please don’t move this to round table because I feel like it will have good discussion.

Guys I am a police officer and I see so many people say we need police reform so I just wanted to see what people think could be done on the reform side. I will start with a couple things. Police are so short staffed that it is hard to find quality people to fill the positions. Start with higher pay and much more tighter hiring practices. Second in the 4th circuit which includes SC we aren’t allowed to use a taser anymore unless the subject is physically aggressive toward us or if they are a threat to society ex. a person wanted for murder running from you would be a exigent circumstance. They need to change this ruling because it has now caused more officers to have to go hands on and start a physical encounter with the subject vs tasing a verbally resisting subject. Tasers are very safe and effective when used properly. Lastly officers need mandatory BJJ training paid for by the dept. Officers desperately need to be trained in how to control subjects on the ground. The last two controversial police shootings (Atlanta, Wisconsin) have come when multiple officers couldn’t control the suspect on the ground and let him get up. If these officers are trained in this and the subject is placed into custody on the ground then these shootings never happened. Please respond respectfully, thank you.
I'm just going to say thank you for what you do.
 
Serious question, because I truly don’t know. If you are in a tussle with someone do you generally know what they are wanted for already? Does that play into your mind when you are apprehending someone as to how much force to use?

I would think someone wanted for being a deadbeat dad or a murderer are probably occupying different levels of force in your mind already.
 
Officers desperately need to be trained in how to control subjects on the ground. The last two controversial police shootings (Atlanta, Wisconsin) have come when multiple officers couldn’t control the suspect on the ground and let him get up. If these officers are trained in this and the subject is placed into custody on the ground then these shootings never happened. Please respond respectfully, thank you.

Agree 1000% with this. Just had a conversation with co-workers on this. inexcusable in my opinion that multiple officers at the scene could not restrain these individuals.
 
Thank you for your service OP. I think more training and more simulation of real live situations. I don't know all the "ins and outs" but if these officers rarely or never practice live situations where they could be shot at then they won't know how to react when it really happens.
 
Thank you for what you do. As to the short staffing, I have no doubt this will continue to be an issue as our national media continues to vilify policing along with a certain ideology that is spreading like wildfire. Who the hell would want to get in the profession with no one backing your play? Be safe out there.
 
Mandatory monthly non-lethal force and lethal force training including target discrimination is badly needed. Thankfully, simulation is becoming much more of a reality.

There are many, many Officers that essentially only get training updates once per year, just not enough.

Totally agree with BJJ, should be mandatory.
 
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Thank you for what you do Sir.....I think it is a two way street. Yes Police reform sounds like a good idea but how that happens is beyond my scope of knowledge. Better training, hiring, etc....all sound good. Secondly, if citizens would comply with what officers ask them a lot of this crap would never happen but with the media and social media turning arrests into prime time events it give criminals more of a reason to act out? But as we know by now it’s always the police’s fault no matter how bad the criminal.
 
I think mandatory body cams throughout the country would be something I could get with.

I agree that officers need to be better trained to handle a physical altercation and that tasers should absolutely be used rather than their firearm. It seems, and I could be off, that officers are very quick to the trigger.

Definitely need to have tighter restrictions on who can become a police officer.

Thanks for the respectful post.
 
Appreciate your service. That was one of my first thoughts with the latest incident in Wisc - why couldn't 3 individuals together get him to the ground or block his ability to gain access to the vehicle. I wish they would actually show everyone accurate statistics on this data also - from what I can find online, blacks nor whites are dying at a very high rate at the hands of Law Enforcement. I'm glad that I don't have to make split second decisions about things like this.
 
Increased salaries since these jobs aren’t for everyone.

Monthly mental health training.

Non lethal tactic training monthly.

Thank you for what you do OP. My dad was a state trooper and I never remember his job being as hard as what is faced these days. Right is right and wrong is wrong, but we as a society shouldn’t ignore the fact that we need training too. You can’t ask police to assume the worst in everyone when you assume the worst in them.
 
Agree 1000% with this. Just had a conversation with co-workers on this. inexcusable in my opinion that multiple officers at the scene could not restrain these individuals.
The Wisconsin shooting was a violent scene from the get go with boyfriend refusing to leave the house. It will be interesting to see if the individual had a knife in his hand because I don't want to try to take someone down if they have a knife. Tasing already failed so the guy might be on meth or crack. It is easy to judge from a distance. Defunding police certainly won't help departments like their's buy bodycams. George Floyd was a hit IMHO and it had nothing to do with his ethnicity. Counterfeit money is not easy to make and large latino night clubs would be a great place to launder counterfeit money by Mexican cartels if they so chose. God bless and peace to all peaceful people.
 
Excellent topic. Completely agree on the staffing problems, hiring issues, etc. Here's a couple initial thoughts on my end.

- Training definitely needs updating, you mentioned BJJ as something that should be mandatory, and that taser rules should be relaxed so we hopefully have less lethal force used when situations spiral quickly. But we also need to stop training cops as if they're militant mercenaries. Yes, they need to be law enforcement, skilled with lawful use of their weapon, etc...but they also need to know & respect the law, and be able to act as peacekeepers, law enforcers, and have actual skills in de-escalation.

- The "few bad apples" argument can't fly any more. It's just not acceptable. Some jobs just can't have bad members, and if you find them, you move on from them without a ton of extra chances. I'd say the vast majority of Americans understand that it's an incredibly stressful, often traumatic job. But it's such an important one that the bad apples need to be tossed aside much quicker. We can't have more Derek Chauvins with 15+ serious allegations / infractions on his work record, yet still he's on the street as a cop terrorizing the public that he's supposed to be protecting. Identify those bad seeds early and get rid of them. Hire slowly, fire quickly. The "bad apples" are the minority, we all know that....but they're kept on duty far too often and for far too long, and it's a big reason they spoil the reputation of the good officers, and the good work the majority of the police is doing. We don't allow commercial airline pilots to keep flying after "just a few crashes"...because of the importance and impact of their job on the public. We need to treat bad police the same way. I'd bet the majority of public complaints against officers in a department are against a small group of repeat offender cops. Cleaning up individual departments would be a big step in the right direction towards rebuilding a positive public perception of police.
 
Cris please don’t move this to round table because I feel like it will have good discussion.

Guys I am a police officer and I see so many people say we need police reform so I just wanted to see what people think could be done on the reform side. I will start with a couple things. Police are so short staffed that it is hard to find quality people to fill the positions. Start with higher pay and much more tighter hiring practices. Second in the 4th circuit which includes SC we aren’t allowed to use a taser anymore unless the subject is physically aggressive toward us or if they are a threat to society ex. a person wanted for murder running from you would be a exigent circumstance. They need to change this ruling because it has now caused more officers to have to go hands on and start a physical encounter with the subject vs tasing a verbally resisting subject. Tasers are very safe and effective when used properly. Lastly officers need mandatory BJJ training paid for by the dept. Officers desperately need to be trained in how to control subjects on the ground. The last two controversial police shootings (Atlanta, Wisconsin) have come when multiple officers couldn’t control the suspect on the ground and let him get up. If these officers are trained in this and the subject is placed into custody on the ground then these shootings never happened. Please respond respectfully, thank you.

Training is a huge part of the problem, but, training isn’t cheap, and usually, when budgets get cut, training is the first to go. Unfortunately, the National narrative continues to go in the opposite direction of what’s needed for improvement, which is more funding, not less. But, at the end of the day, LE is a very messy business and nothing in the narrative now addresses the biggest issue, which is the behavior of individuals coming into contact with LE. Unfortunately all the training in the world will not greatly reduce the number of the incidences, in my opinion, until people change their behavior and belief systems.
 
Guys thank you for the responses. All very respectful and several good ideas as well. To the poster about de-escalating training. I will say this, we get a good amount of training on this and unfortunately if you were in this job you would see that most of the subjects we deal with de-escalation just simply doesn’t work.
 
Serious question, because I truly don’t know. If you are in a tussle with someone do you generally know what they are wanted for already? Does that play into your mind when you are apprehending someone as to how much force to use?

I would think someone wanted for being a deadbeat dad or a murderer are probably occupying different levels of force in your mind already.
Very good question. It’s 50/50 on whether or not you know if there wanted or something before you start fighting with them. However yes your anxiety does rise if you know your fighting a wanted violent felon vs say someone wanted for disorderly conduct. Now you should use the level of force necessary to effect the arrest according to how they are resisting (armed, unarmed ex) but regardless as human nature yes the nature of crime does come into play.
 
Cris please don’t move this to round table because I feel like it will have good discussion.

Guys I am a police officer and I see so many people say we need police reform so I just wanted to see what people think could be done on the reform side. I will start with a couple things. Police are so short staffed that it is hard to find quality people to fill the positions. Start with higher pay and much more tighter hiring practices. Second in the 4th circuit which includes SC we aren’t allowed to use a taser anymore unless the subject is physically aggressive toward us or if they are a threat to society ex. a person wanted for murder running from you would be a exigent circumstance. They need to change this ruling because it has now caused more officers to have to go hands on and start a physical encounter with the subject vs tasing a verbally resisting subject. Tasers are very safe and effective when used properly. Lastly officers need mandatory BJJ training paid for by the dept. Officers desperately need to be trained in how to control subjects on the ground. The last two controversial police shootings (Atlanta, Wisconsin) have come when multiple officers couldn’t control the suspect on the ground and let him get up. If these officers are trained in this and the subject is placed into custody on the ground then these shootings never happened. Please respond respectfully, thank you.

So popular consensus (so far) seems to support "better" hiring, and more physical altercation training among other things.

But how do we square "tightening" of hiring, and having a force more prepared and willing and capable of going hands-on with affirmative action quotas? Quotas don't get you "better" oftentimes you get the opposite... but one thing for sure is that you will always get the racial / gender mix that you mandate, regardless of who is "best".

Lets say that we do this and it working. What you will end up with is more physical altercations between cops and suspects and lots of footage of police tuning up suspects because thats what we want and are selecting and training to that end. IMO.
 
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Training should help but:

Dont shoot people in the back. Running toward you is a threat, away from you is not.

If a suspect is cuffed and on the ground get off of them.

When an officer has multiple incidents in his file of excessive use of force, kick them to the curb.

Screen applicants better for mental health issues.

Its going to be hard now, not too many people these days want to be an officer. NY is having record retirements and early retirements.
 
Minimum 1 year of training before going on active duty
Increased community oversight
Increased community policing
End Qualified Immunity.

Have to find a way to end the blue wall of silence that prevents good cops from speaking out against the bad.
Love the idea of ending qualified immunity, but being a devil’s advocate on your first point. To have that limitation requires more police officers. Do you agree with that?
 
My question is do we have sufficient support mechanisms in place for officers’ mental well being?

I don’t think I can imagine how low pay, high stress, and fear impact their psyche.

And don't forget about having a bunch of people telling you that you are fukked up and racist and worthless all the time I'm sure that would do wonders for your mental state.

Edit: I took out the politcal point even though it is accurate.
 
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Minimum 1 year of training before going on active duty
Increased community oversight
Increased community policing
End Qualified Immunity.

Have to find a way to end the blue wall of silence that prevents good cops from speaking out against the bad.

^these - especially the emphasis on Community Policing. Police need to live in the communities they police.

I will also say that ... we need to end "The War on Drugs". Its been a monumental failure and is ripe with corruption. Those funds need to go to education, community, rehabilitation, and mental health facilities ...... this would entail locking up a fair amount of our local, state, and federal politicians because there is little doubt in my mind that they have cartel money in their bank accounts.
 
Guys I am a police officer (THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE)

and I see so many people say we need police reform so I just wanted to see what people think could be done on the reform side.

I will start with a couple things.

Police are so short staffed that it is hard to find quality people to fill the positions. (Is there a placement program in place for military veterans fresh out that can make contact with forces around the country? )

Start with higher pay and much more tighter hiring practices.

Second in the 4th circuit which includes SC we aren’t allowed to use a taser anymore (Why would they decide to do this?)

unless the subject is physically aggressive toward us or if they are a threat to society

ex. a person wanted for murder running from you would be a exigent circumstance.

They need to change this ruling because it has now caused more officers to have to go hands on and start a physical encounter with the subject vs tasing a verbally resisting subject. (This is dangerous. Why would they do this?)

Tasers are very safe and effective when used properly.

Lastly officers need mandatory BJJ training paid for by the dept. Officers desperately need to be trained in how to control subjects on the ground.

The last two controversial police shootings (Atlanta, Wisconsin) have come when multiple officers couldn’t control the suspect on the ground and let him get up. If these officers are trained in this and the subject is placed into custody on the ground then these shootings never happened. (Gracie Jui Jitzu)

Please respond respectfully, thank you.
 
Training should help but:

Dont shoot people in the back. Running toward you is a threat, away from you is not.

If a suspect is cuffed and on the ground get off of them.

When an officer has multiple incidents in his file of excessive use of force, kick them to the curb.

Screen applicants better for mental health issues.

Its going to be hard now, not too many people these days want to be an officer. NY is having record retirements and early retirements.
Thanks for the response. I’m not debating the Wisconsin thing but as a police officer and I’m behind you and you are reaching for a deadly weapon, gun or knife, then you are going to get shot plain and simple. As a citizen let’s say you get in a tussle with someone and you are armed and a weapon falls off of them and they start reaching for it. Are you going to wait for them to turn around and shoot or stab you. I highly doubt it. These are the situations we are in. I was just putting that out there as a general situation.
 
Some great suggestions here. I would also suggest that we need to work on hiring more from the local communities. It would help if the police looked like the people that they were protecting and serving. I also wonder at everyone, particularly our conservative brethren who are very opposed to tax increases suggesting pay increases and expanded training for officers. Where do we get these funds from?
 
Cris please don’t move this to round table because I feel like it will have good discussion.

Guys I am a police officer and I see so many people say we need police reform so I just wanted to see what people think could be done on the reform side. I will start with a couple things. Police are so short staffed that it is hard to find quality people to fill the positions. Start with higher pay and much more tighter hiring practices. Second in the 4th circuit which includes SC we aren’t allowed to use a taser anymore unless the subject is physically aggressive toward us or if they are a threat to society ex. a person wanted for murder running from you would be a exigent circumstance. They need to change this ruling because it has now caused more officers to have to go hands on and start a physical encounter with the subject vs tasing a verbally resisting subject. Tasers are very safe and effective when used properly. Lastly officers need mandatory BJJ training paid for by the dept. Officers desperately need to be trained in how to control subjects on the ground. The last two controversial police shootings (Atlanta, Wisconsin) have come when multiple officers couldn’t control the suspect on the ground and let him get up. If these officers are trained in this and the subject is placed into custody on the ground then these shootings never happened. Please respond respectfully, thank you.
I'm curious- in your training, were you told that you were allowed to use deadly force if somebody stole your taser and tried to use it on you?
 
Guys I am a police officer (THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE)

and I see so many people say we need police reform so I just wanted to see what people think could be done on the reform side.

I will start with a couple things.

Police are so short staffed that it is hard to find quality people to fill the positions. (Is there a placement program in place for military veterans fresh out that can make contact with forces around the country? )

Start with higher pay and much more tighter hiring practices.

Second in the 4th circuit which includes SC we aren’t allowed to use a taser anymore (Why would they decide to do this?)

unless the subject is physically aggressive toward us or if they are a threat to society

ex. a person wanted for murder running from you would be a exigent circumstance.

They need to change this ruling because it has now caused more officers to have to go hands on and start a physical encounter with the subject vs tasing a verbally resisting subject. (This is dangerous. Why would they do this?)

Tasers are very safe and effective when used properly.

Lastly officers need mandatory BJJ training paid for by the dept. Officers desperately need to be trained in how to control subjects on the ground.

The last two controversial police shootings (Atlanta, Wisconsin) have come when multiple officers couldn’t control the suspect on the ground and let him get up. If these officers are trained in this and the subject is placed into custody on the ground then these shootings never happened. (Gracie Jui Jitzu)

Please respond respectfully, thank you.
The military is a double edged sword. Unfortunately we haven’t had a lot of luck with them. They have been to militarized and rough around the edges. Just personally speaking with us. The 4th circuit has no clue and says its excessive force but it’s a hell of a lot better than killing people. Yes Gracie is the best out there geared towards LE but good luck getting depts to fund it. We desperately need more training.
 
Minimum 1 year of training before going on active duty
Increased community oversight
Increased community policing
End Qualified Immunity.

Have to find a way to end the blue wall of silence that prevents good cops from speaking out against the bad.

With the exception of some community oversight, I don't see how any of those things help. They just create more/different problems.

No LE agency has the funds to leave an officer in training for a full year before they start. Turnover is too large to justify it.

In the worst crime areas, who do you think would even qualify to do LE work? It just isn't feasible.

Would you go work in a job where you could get sued constantly by felons? I wouldn't.
 
I have a basic, but perhaps uninformed question...

What happened to officers using the club or baton or whatever it was once called as nonlethal force to subdue an individual who is resisting?

I'm guessing they had that taken away from them by politicians?

What's the story here?
 
Cris please don’t move this to round table because I feel like it will have good discussion.

Guys I am a police officer and I see so many people say we need police reform so I just wanted to see what people think could be done on the reform side. I will start with a couple things. Police are so short staffed that it is hard to find quality people to fill the positions. Start with higher pay and much more tighter hiring practices. Second in the 4th circuit which includes SC we aren’t allowed to use a taser anymore unless the subject is physically aggressive toward us or if they are a threat to society ex. a person wanted for murder running from you would be a exigent circumstance. They need to change this ruling because it has now caused more officers to have to go hands on and start a physical encounter with the subject vs tasing a verbally resisting subject. Tasers are very safe and effective when used properly. Lastly officers need mandatory BJJ training paid for by the dept. Officers desperately need to be trained in how to control subjects on the ground. The last two controversial police shootings (Atlanta, Wisconsin) have come when multiple officers couldn’t control the suspect on the ground and let him get up. If these officers are trained in this and the subject is placed into custody on the ground then these shootings never happened. Please respond respectfully, thank you.
The biggest change needs 2 officers per car. Trying to handle a large athletic man with bad intentions is tough to handle with just one officer.
 
Love the idea of ending qualified immunity, but being a devil’s advocate on your first point. To have that limitation requires more police officers. Do you agree with that?
How so? I don’t see how having 1st year officers go through 12 months of training means more net officers. We’d probably have more people wash out during that year of training which would have a cost associated with it...but I do support increased pay for living in the community you serve.
 
Some great suggestions here. I would also suggest that we need to work on hiring more from the local communities. It would help if the police looked like the people that they were protecting and serving. I also wonder at everyone, particularly our conservative brethren who are very opposed to tax increases suggesting pay increases and expanded training for officers. Where do we get these funds from?
We def need more funding for training but yes no one wants to do it. I agree we need more of our locals to match our community. I would say our community is probably 70-80 minority but we can’t find any minority candidates. Not sure how to fix that.
 
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We def need more funding for training but yes no one wants to do it. I agree we need more of our locals to match our community. I would say our community is probably 70-80 minority but we can’t find any minority candidates. Not sure how to fix that.

I am all for funding. What's challenging is we need minority cops,but the minute you do any sort of incentive program for hiring minority police people start screaming about Affirmative Action.
 
I appreciate the job police officers do and I recognize officers are in a tough spot, but there absolutely needs to be reform.

I know this might sound hokie, but a big part of the issue is just how they are trained to see the public as "subjects" and "suspects" and not individual people. Training needs to be as much about talking with and understanding people, as it is having better procedures for when things do escalate.

I actually have little hope it will get better because if anything, this reform will need much more money than we are spending on policing now. If anything, these moronic politicians are defunding the police.
 
Bachelors degree should be required
Why?

Some of the best Police officers are former Military leaders who are highly trained/skilled at it. More so than a college kid with his Undergraduate degree ever will be.

@clintontiger1 - thank you for your Service in a very difficult time right now. Alot of people really can't appreciate it enough.

Unfortunately, it seems alot of the people screaming "Police Reform" are also the same ones clamoring to "Defund the Police" as well.

Some of the suggestions and discussion points itt do make sense. Constant training to handle the evolving changes and actions in our society. I think the Urban areas, the Local Officials need to support the Police better than they have been. Disgusting what the Mayor of NYC has been doing to the Police force there.

Be safe!
 
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