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OT: Police Reform

I have a basic, but perhaps uninformed question...

What happened to officers using the club or baton or whatever it was once called as nonlethal force to subdue an individual who is resisting?

I'm guessing they had that taken away from them by politicians?

What's the story here?
I can’t speak about different states but in S.C. yes we can use batons and usually they fall in the use of force progression before deadly force. Problem is police are getting so bashed with use of force incidents they are scared to be seen using them.
 
Great post and discussion. The defund and demilitarize discussion is so counterproductive and is exactly why this problem persists and never gets solved. Politicians/activists do two things which paralyzes the discussion:

1. They automatically lump excessive force and race. These are two very very different problems and need to be addressed separately, in each case and globally. Did the cop in the Floyd case use excessive and unnecessary force, 100%. Is he a racist? We don't know. You can address these questions/investigations separately in a very effective and efficient way. Immediately lump them together and you get nowhere fast, particularly in the current political environment.

2. They don't let the system work, even for a minute. Police officers have varying levels of qualified immunity for their actions. This is a absolute necessity to allow them to do their jobs. But it takes time to investigate ALL the evidence. The system actually works most of the time (not all the time, but it never does in our judicial system), but when politicians/athletes/celebrities, etc. immediately jump to "an innocent/unarmed black person was murdered by a racist white cop", the process is screwed and you have what we have now. I certainly understand that people on every side will raise heck and protest and yell, which is perfectly fine and expected. But leaders need to be above that on individual cases. Clearly this discussion is needed, but right now there are very few people that can actually carry the discussion and even pretend to make a long-term difference.

I have law enforcement in my extended family. My BIL was a police officer. He's college educated and loves law enforcement. He counted every day as a police officer until he could become a federal officer. He ultimately became a US Marshall. Much better pay, less risk, better retirement, better training, better resources, etc. We lose way too many good police officers for these reasons.

My thoughts on your question:

1. Better hiring. Many companies do extensive personality profiling prior to hire. I've know a lot of police officers through my BIL. 5 minutes into a conversation and you could tell the one(s) that would be prone to letting anger and frustration creep into their job. We need to make sure those types aren't hired. Someone mentioned mental health above. Absolutely agree. These are incredibly high stress jobs that most of us cannot fathom. They need to have this resource available at all times, to help them and identify those that may have problems. This would include racial, discriminatory and prejudicial screening as well as anger management, stress tolerance, anxiety, etc.

2. Dedicate MORE money. Higher salaries, better training, better retirement, etc. We need to be able to recruit and retain good police officers. Training, training, training.

3. As advanced as we are technologically, I don't understand why there haven't been more advancement in non-lethal resources. Tasers don't work on drugged out individuals or may not pierce thick clothing. We have to provide them better and more reliable non-lethal equipment.

4. Universal body cams. Absolutely.

Finally, somewhere in this, someone, anyone who can make a difference also has to get through to people that whether you think police officers are evil or fantastic, if you will just listen, follow basic instructions and not resist, the chances of even having a gun pulled on you is virtually non-existent, much less getting shot. With that said, the vast majority of examples that make headlines are people with criminal records that have the cops called on them for what they are doing and they then resist, flee, attack and the only real way to stop those people from getting shot is special operations-type training on hand-to-hand combat/subdue techniques AND reliable, effective non-lethal equipment.
 
The military is a double edged sword. Unfortunately we haven’t had a lot of luck with them. They have been to militarized and rough around the edges. Just personally speaking with us. The 4th circuit has no clue and says its excessive force but it’s a hell of a lot better than killing people. Yes Gracie is the best out there geared towards LE but good luck getting depts to fund it. We desperately need more training.

is there not a gracie gym or mma gym in clinton?

id rather have a military guy you have to hold back versus a #$#$$$%
 
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No officer with 3 excessive write ups should hold a badge anywhere.

The good cops need to speak up when they see a bad cop/colleague do something that isn’t right.

Gotta increase pay so we stop hiring people with itchy trigger fingers and poor character
 
How so? I don’t see how having 1st year officers go through 12 months of training means more net officers. We’d probably have more people wash out during that year of training which would have a cost associated with it...but I do support increased pay for living in the community you serve.
Because a training officer is responsible for that trainee and can’t be 100% effective. So in order to be 100% effective as a staff, you’d have to fill that opportunity.

Also agree with your stance on communities; officers should receive incentives living in them
 
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You absolutely don't want to have to "hold someone back". Someone mentioned that it's difficult to tell if it's a violent cop, or if they are racist. I totally agree,but it's hard to blame people for feeling that it's racist if it's primarily white cops against people of color. We have got to diversify our departments.
 
I would like to propose the notion that maybe things aren’t as bad as the media would have us believe. No doubt there will be situations that aren’t managed properly by the police and those need to be scrutinized and dealt with. With that said, we can’t place all the blame on the police. If people would obey police commands the overwhelming majority of these would stop. Below are some excerpts from a WSJ article.

375 million annual contacts that police officers have with civilians.

In 2019 police officers fatally shot 1,004 people, most of whom were armed or otherwise dangerous. African-Americans were about a quarter of those killed by cops last year (235), a ratio that has remained stable since 2015.

In 2018, the latest year for which such data have been published, African-Americans made up 53% of known homicide offenders in the U.S. and commit about 60% of robberies, though they are 13% of the population.

The police fatally shot nine unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019, according to a Washington Post database, down from 38 and 32, respectively, in 2015.

In 2018 there were 7,407 black homicide victims. Assuming a comparable number of victims last year, those nine unarmed black victims of police shootings represent 0.1% of all African-Americans killed in 2019. By contrast, a police officer is 18½ times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a police officer.

***Summary:
-We have a bunch of police interactions each year and 99.99% are handled well.
-The majority of violent crime in this country comes from a small portion of the population, which in turn leads to more police interactions with that group.
-Black homicides are a much bigger problem.
-Cops are in more danger if being killed by a black assailant then a cop killing an unarmed black man.

If we ignore these facts and continue to demand change, credibility is lost. We need to address the entire problem.
 
We def need more funding for training but yes no one wants to do it. I agree we need more of our locals to match our community. I would say our community is probably 70-80 minority but we can’t find any minority candidates. Not sure how to fix that.
well ... the simplistic answer is more community outreach and job fairs. Bridge programs like Vocational/Technical programs in high school.

but you cant start here, you have to start higher. Start with policy such as all police officers must wear body cams and they must be turned on. This protects the community AND the officers. Its amazing to me that this hasnt been mandated.

Next, police oversight needs to come from the community NOT from within the brotherhood.
 
Seriously everyone thank you for the responses and so far I totally agree with most things. I will also say that we ALL as a community have got to not look at everyone as bad including police. I stopped a car a while back at 3-4 in the morning for excessive speed. First thing out of the drivers mouth was you stopped me cause I’m black. It was 4 in the morning I couldn’t see who the heck was driving. When people hate you they resist you. That’s why we all have to change our outlook on police, on the people police deal with. We, including the people we deal with are not all bad.
 
I would like to propose the notion that maybe things aren’t as bad as the media would have us believe. No doubt there will be situations that aren’t managed properly by the police and those need to be scrutinized and dealt with. With that said, we can’t place all the blame on the police. If people would obey police commands the overwhelming majority of these would stop. Below are some excerpts from a WSJ article.

375 million annual contacts that police officers have with civilians.

In 2019 police officers fatally shot 1,004 people, most of whom were armed or otherwise dangerous. African-Americans were about a quarter of those killed by cops last year (235), a ratio that has remained stable since 2015.

In 2018, the latest year for which such data have been published, African-Americans made up 53% of known homicide offenders in the U.S. and commit about 60% of robberies, though they are 13% of the population.

The police fatally shot nine unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019, according to a Washington Post database, down from 38 and 32, respectively, in 2015.

In 2018 there were 7,407 black homicide victims. Assuming a comparable number of victims last year, those nine unarmed black victims of police shootings represent 0.1% of all African-Americans killed in 2019. By contrast, a police officer is 18½ times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a police officer.

***Summary:
-We have a bunch of police interactions each year and 99.99% are handled well.
-The majority of violent crime in this country comes from a small portion of the population, which in turn leads to more police interactions with that group.
-Black homicides are a much bigger problem.
-Cops are in more danger if being killed by a black assailant then a cop killing an unarmed black man.

If we ignore these facts and continue to demand change, credibility is lost. We need to address the entire problem.
The article you are referencing is an opinion piece that lacks concrete data especially in regards to the 18.5 times more likely stat.

There are bigger problems in society at play but we are focusing on police reform in this thread. Thanks
 
Because a training officer is responsible for that trainee and can’t be 100% effective. So in order to be 100% effective as a staff, you’d have to fill that opportunity.

Also agree with your stance on communities; officers should receive incentives living in them
Agreed, along with pay differential and a pretty high bar to become a training officer.
 
I probably shouldn’t post but wth. Police is like everything else nowadays the quality of people have gone down hill. From what I see there isn’t a few bad apples it just the opposite. There’s only a few good cops. The police are not There to protect. They are there to arrest as many people possible. The police are not your friends! “Hello Mr Smith did you know you have a tail light out”? Warnings hardly exist anymore. “Have you been drinking”? What’s in the glove box” what’s under the seat? Do you give consent for me to search your car and if not I’ll keep you here for 2 hours until I get. His object is to find as many things as he can on you to cost you as much money as he can for the state. I say screw you. Go sit in your kids elementary school class and take Names when the teacher goes to the bathroom! The whole system needs to be over hauled. Make the job attractive to people with the right motives for the job. I agree decriminalize drugs and No I’m. It a user. If your not driving high who cares! Stop trying to run the state on ticket money heck up taxes a freaking $1.00. Get the idiot that never got a date or an invitation to the party out of policing. 4 year criminal justice degree, raise the pay significantly. Police officers should be specialties like our armed services. The best of the best in our society and all this rap would go away!!!
 
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well ... the simplistic answer is more community outreach and job fairs. Bridge programs like Vocational/Technical programs in high school.

but you cant start here, you have to start higher. Start with policy such as all police officers must wear body cams and they must be turned on. This protects the community AND the officers. Its amazing to me that this hasnt been mandated.

Next, police oversight needs to come from the community NOT from within the brotherhood.
Hey man I totally agree with the body cams. I have no idea how in the hell we still aren’t funding this for our depts. As far as community oversight. I agree their needs to be more but it needs to be a mixture of community and peers. The community will never know or understand the difficulty of this job so they shouldn’t be my sole judge but they should be included.
 
Seriously everyone thank you for the responses and so far I totally agree with most things. I will also say that we ALL as a community have got to not look at everyone as bad including police. I stopped a car a while back at 3-4 in the morning for excessive speed. First thing out of the drivers mouth was you stopped me cause I’m black. It was 4 in the morning I couldn’t see who the heck was driving. When people hate you they resist you. That’s why we all have to change our outlook on police, on the people police deal with. We, including the people we deal with are not all bad.
I agree. It can really be unfair for both parties. A kid grows up with a couple occasions of him being harassed by a bad officer and then that carries over to feeling its because of his skin. Then you have a good officer like yourself doing your job and immediately feel hated because of your job.

Both feel on edge and its a crappy situation for everyone involved. Thanks again for making a civil thread.
 
Hey man I totally agree with the body cams. I have no idea how in the hell we still aren’t funding this for our depts. As far as community oversight. I agree their needs to be more but it needs to be a mixture of community and peers. The community will never know or understand the difficulty of this job so they shouldn’t be my sole judge but they should be included.
I agree with that.
 
Hey guys
I probably shouldn’t post but wth. Police is like everything else nowadays the quality of people have gone down hill. From what I see there isn’t a few bad apples it just the opposite. There’s only a few good cops. The police are not There to protect. They are there to arrest as many people possible. The police are not your friends! “Hello Mr Smith did you know you have a tail light out”? Warnings hardly exist anymore. “Have you been drinking”? What’s in the glove box” what’s under the seat? Do you give consent for me to search your car and if not I’ll keep you here for 2 hours until I get. His object is to find as many things as he can on you to cost you as much money as he can for the state. I say screw you. Go sit in your kids elementary school class and take Names when the teacher goes to the bathroom! The whole system needs to be over hauled. Make the job attractive to people with the right motives for the job. I agree decriminalize drugs and No I’m. It a user. If your not driving high who cares! Stop trying to run the state on ticket money heck up taxes a freaking $1.00. Get the idiot that never got a date or an invitation to the party out of policing. 4 year criminal justice degree, raise the pay significantly. Police officers should be specialties like our armed services. The best of the best in our society and all this rap would go away!!!
man you bring up some great things. You know what I agree with you. The only thing I will say is not every agency isn’t like this. I will say we write a very small amount of tickets compared to statewide. We try to focus on being more community oriented but I do agree with you.
 
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Seriously everyone thank you for the responses and so far I totally agree with most things. I will also say that we ALL as a community have got to not look at everyone as bad including police. I stopped a car a while back at 3-4 in the morning for excessive speed. First thing out of the drivers mouth was you stopped me cause I’m black. It was 4 in the morning I couldn’t see who the heck was driving. When people hate you they resist you. That’s why we all have to change our outlook on police, on the people police deal with. We, including the people we deal with are not all bad.
So what happened when you told him it was dark and you couldn't see who was driving? He change his tone then? and oh yea, about the excessive speeding thing Sir"....
 
I would like to propose the notion that maybe things aren’t as bad as the media would have us believe. No doubt there will be situations that aren’t managed properly by the police and those need to be scrutinized and dealt with. With that said, we can’t place all the blame on the police. If people would obey police commands the overwhelming majority of these would stop. Below are some excerpts from a WSJ article.

375 million annual contacts that police officers have with civilians.

In 2019 police officers fatally shot 1,004 people, most of whom were armed or otherwise dangerous. African-Americans were about a quarter of those killed by cops last year (235), a ratio that has remained stable since 2015.

In 2018, the latest year for which such data have been published, African-Americans made up 53% of known homicide offenders in the U.S. and commit about 60% of robberies, though they are 13% of the population.

The police fatally shot nine unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019, according to a Washington Post database, down from 38 and 32, respectively, in 2015.

In 2018 there were 7,407 black homicide victims. Assuming a comparable number of victims last year, those nine unarmed black victims of police shootings represent 0.1% of all African-Americans killed in 2019. By contrast, a police officer is 18½ times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a police officer.

***Summary:
-We have a bunch of police interactions each year and 99.99% are handled well.
-The majority of violent crime in this country comes from a small portion of the population, which in turn leads to more police interactions with that group.
-Black homicides are a much bigger problem.
-Cops are in more danger if being killed by a black assailant then a cop killing an unarmed black man.

If we ignore these facts and continue to demand change, credibility is lost. We need to address the entire problem.
Thanks for the response and yes I agree there are societal problems but we have got some issues with police and we need some change so let’s stick to that in this thread.
 
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Appreciate the service you and your colleagues provide.

IMO, reform means we need to be reassessing and rebuilding what "services" our LE agencies provide. I think we've given police too many duties which consequently put beat cops into bad positions.

For example, do we really need LE writing speeding tickets? Isn't this one of the most dangerous encounters for both an officer and civilian? Either fund a public safety office to enforce traffic laws or find some other means to regulate. Police don't conduct and enforce health dept sanitation laws in restaurants.

In short, I believe our local LE should look more like the FBI or marshals. More of a focus on solving crime than a presence to try and prevent.
 
Why?

Some of the best Police officers are former Military leaders who are highly trained/skilled at it. More so than a college kid with his Undergraduate degree ever will be.

@clintontiger1 - thank you for your Service in a very difficult time right now. Alot of people really can't appreciate it enough.

Unfortunately, it seems alot of the people screaming "Police Reform" are also the same ones clamoring to "Defund the Police" as well.

Some of the suggestions and discussion points itt do make sense. Constant training to handle the evolving changes and actions in our society. I think the Urban areas, the Local Officials need to support the Police better than they have been. Disgusting what the Mayor of NYC has been doing to the Police force there.

Be safe!

Good point. Maybe military experience and or Bachelors degree?
 
Mandatory monthly non-lethal force and lethal force training including target discrimination is badly needed. Thankfully, simulation is becoming much more of a reality.

There are many, many Officers that essentially only get training updates once per year, just not enough.

Totally agree with BJJ, should be mandatory.
What is TARGET DISCRIMINATION ??? These officers were called to these locations. Please explain.
 
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So what happened when you told him it was dark and you couldn't see who was driving? He change his tone then? and oh yea, about the excessive speeding thing Sir"....
Unfortunately no, I still treated them the same and also gave him a warning. I don’t treat people different. It’s not personal to me and I will say that is a area that needs changing. We have way to many hot heads.
 
What is TARGET DISCRIMINATION ??? These officers were calked thise locations. Please explain.
Target Discrimination is real. I’ve seen or heard of it plenty. Basically you see 4 black youth riding in a car that look like thugs(they aren’t) cause they have dreads or whatever. They are more likely to get stopped vs 4 white teenagers riding around looking like college kids. It is a true problem in our job. Now I will say that the last two shootings officers were called there so this wouldn’t apply.
 
I definitely think police officers need to be paid more. I can’t imagine the difficulty being an officer today. So thankful we have law enforcement and I appreciate you and your dedication and service. I back the blue. Always have. Always will.
GOod gravy yes. Everyone agrees teachers should be paid more....Cops are paid less than teachers, and many cops have degrees, face danger on a weekly basis, and work long, odd hours.
 
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Sorry if I missed someone, I’m offf today so I’m trying to reply to as much as possible. Please remember to focus on the topic please.
 
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Target Discrimination is real. I’ve seen or heard of it plenty. Basically you see 4 black youth riding in a car that look like thugs(they aren’t) cause they have dreads or whatever. They are more likely to get stopped vs 4 white teenagers riding around looking like college kids. It is a true problem in our job. Now I will say that the last two shootings officers were called there so this wouldn’t apply.

When did racial profiling change to target discrimination?
 
because of the power they have over the average citizen i think cops should have extra penalty levied if they're found guilty of an abuse of power type crime. i think changing the punishment could minimize that crime rate.

they also have to figure out how to make whistle-blowing easier and make it easier to eliminate bad cops. just like almost anything it's the few douchebags in the bunch that spoil it.

plus, just like teachers, they should pay more if they want to find good ones. tough to get the best available when your pay is so low
 
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We have no BJJ within a hour of us. Plus the ones that are within that hour range are all very expensive for the officer to pay

so that means an opportunity for a small business

a vacuum in clinton sc

you should go on mma sites and see if you can find a graduate of a school who would be interested in opening a gym near the station
 
Great post imo. I wish they would bring in hank voight to do the training. Hank would have no problem getting suspects to comply
 
Hey man I totally agree with the body cams. I have no idea how in the hell we still aren’t funding this for our depts. As far as community oversight. I agree their needs to be more but it needs to be a mixture of community and peers. The community will never know or understand the difficulty of this job so they shouldn’t be my sole judge but they should be included.


seems like google would fund this just for google maps

put those cameras on top of all police units too
 
Okay...here goes. 30 year RETIRED with 25 years as a Federal Officer.
Most of you have ZERO idea about whats it like by yourself in the middle of nowhere when some person wants to go off on you.
Most have seen the videos of Atlanta and other places where 2,3,4 grown men are still not enough to get control of one single guy.
Most of you would simply freeze, let the guy grab a gun or a knife and send YOU to your grave.
Most would never stand there and have people call you the most horrible names 2 inches from your face, or have attorneys continually question your morale and ethical values regardless how strong they are.
Most protesters who have some opinion about police reforms, non lethal weapons, or how THEY would do it....would be killed, resign, or be in hospital after 30 days.
I have been a firearms trainer, hostage negotiator, alcohol and drug specialist, and prison reform activist.
With all that...lets take people like LeBron and whom ever else would like to go through some serious scenario training and see if their attitude changes. Im betting it will.
God bless the blue. They dont call it the THIN blue line for nothing.
 
No officer with 3 excessive write ups should hold a badge anywhere.

The good cops need to speak up when they see a bad cop/colleague do something that isn’t right.

Gotta increase pay so we stop hiring people with itchy trigger fingers and poor character
Agreed. As long as you know that there is a difference between a complaint and a write up. any joe schmoe can file a comlaint.
 
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