ADVERTISEMENT

OT - We all knew this was coming (Iran plane crash)

Hey Navy!

I think that Trump is understanding the threat that China poses with their advances toward the ultimate high ground, space. I think that he's recognizing the threat.... But that's just my uninformed opinion.

Russia is not a threat to project real power. They are a sh*t show only exceeded by ME culture countries. Their Strategic forces, however are a different story. That's ok. Russions are not a crazy theocratic people... if theocratic it is in the Judeo-Christian tradition and not some other... MAD will work with them.

On a regional level... Trump is goading/pushing europe to take responsibility for their own defense. Poland is a poster child.

Specifics on the recap that you have issue with?
I’d say Russia is projecting some pretty effective power in the Ukraine (which no one seems to talk about anymore) and Syria. They totally changed the game in Syria and saved Asad. Syria was days from crashing when they arrived.

Europe does need to spend more on defense. Many of their military’s are a shell. Especially Germany whose GNP is the highest in Europe. Next to the Brits, the French are probably our biggest proponents.

We’ve wanted to focus on China for 20 years. The ME just keeps pulling resources in.
 
The number sixteen is symbolic of love and loving.
that checks out...
giphy.gif
 
  • Like
Reactions: Walhalla Wildman
Let's get the heck out of Iraq. Now that we produce 12 million barrels of oil a day, we don't need them. Just leave. Thank GWB for creating the next Persian Empire.
 
For those interested, what’s happening now with Russia, Iran, and Turkey getting chummy with each other the last several years is all leading up to the fulfillment of Ezekiel 38-39. Russia will soon lead an invasion into Israel for Israel’s wealth, and they will be joined by Iran and Turkey, among others. No one helps Israel, not even the U.S. God alone wins the battle for Israel. And ultimately that’s what all this stuff in the Middle East that’s been going on for years is about. Israel.

God has already told us what will happen in the not too distant future. John 14:29 says it best as to why He does:

“I have told you these things before they happen so that when they do happen, you will believe.”

Hmmmm. Far be it from me to contradict His word. But.....

Russia and Israel, while not best of friends, get along and cooperate. They are both rational actors when it comes to their relationship. And frankly. Israel would smoke the Russians: at least in a short fight.

Turkey hates the Russians and the Russians hate Turkey. The only reason they talk right now is because Erdogan is an Islamist dick who blames America for the coup attempt in 2016. Putin buddying up with him is to drive a wedge between Turkey and NATO (US). The Kurd issues was one we and Turkey don't see eye to eye on. Putin and Asad used that. Turkey's decision in 2015 to belatedly enter the fight against ISIS was a positive game changer for us. The basing/geography gave greatly improved our ability to project power in Syria. With the defeat of ISIS, Trump, despite the backlash, sided with Turkey on the Kurd issue. In part to side with a NATO ally and to keep his promise to get troops out. Remember the Kurds have been killing LOTS of Turks in Turkey for years. They were critical in the fight against ISIS, and America loves the underdog. However they aren't exactly good neighbors either. Trump sided with a long term ally (despite their current anti-American leader). Long term, this was the right play. Turkey just wants to secure its border for further attacks. They've done that. Turkey, Iran and Iraq all hate the Kurds. In 2018, post Mosul, they quickly teamed and squashed the Peshmerga's attempt at gaining independence from Iraq.

Isreal's wealth? If you mean the billions in foreign aid we give them to sustain them, then yeah, they are wealthy. But not really. I admire the fight in the Israelis but they 1) spy and steal from us and 2) would not exist without our support. American tax dollars finance their security. Israel's GDP is around $400 Million annually. To put this in perspective, South Carolina's is aournd $200 Billion annually. Texas is at $1.6 trillion by itself which is about the same size as Russia's GDP. US aid this year to Israel is $3.3 billion.....slightly more than their GDP.

I've spent far too much time on this.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nsp1996
Iran, China and Russia just did joint naval exercises in December. https://www.ft.com/content/3d5a4cf0-288f-11ea-9a4f-963f0ec7e134

So do we - with both Russia and China. We held a joint humanitarian exercise with China in December and had a run of joint operations with Russia from 2010-2013 (abeit that was 6 years ago).

Info on the China operation:

https://www.newsweek.com/us-china-joint-drills-tensions-1471258

I don't know dick about anything, but it seems like there's way too much money coming in to China from the US for them to side with Iran. And prob the same with Russia.

The US is the backbone of China's economy. Without us, who will they sell their stuff to? We aren't the only consumer, but we are almost certainly the biggest.

I doubt they will care about one terrorist getting vaporized. They (Chinese) aren't exactly kind to Muslims in their own country BTW.
 
@Buzzards Roost I agree with you about the moronic, partisan logic chain re: Trump, but there is only a tenuous similarity with the USS Vincennes shootdown of Iran Air 655 in July of 1988. Way different context.

1987 - Iran v. Iraq still going on. May .. USS Stark hit with a Exocet killing 37 injuring 21 and disabling the vessel. Much commentary and second-guessing of the Captain of that ship for not being more aggressive in defending his vessel. USN ships continue operation EARNEST WILL re: flagging and escorting tankers.

1988- EARNEST WILL continues. 14 April USS Samuel B Roberts strikes an Iranian Mine. 18 April US Executes op PRAYING MANTIS destroying some Iranian offshore platforms and sinking damn near the entire Iranian Navy. 3 July - USS Vincennes, while passing thru the straight of hormuz was engaged / engaging Iranian gunboats with one of her helicopters reportedly engaged with small arms fire.

IA 655 was mis-Identified by the USS Vincennes as a potential Iranian F14. Vincennes attempted 10 times to contact IA 655. No success. It was squawking as a commercial flight but was reportedly thought to be on a descending profile (not confirmed by examination of the computer data) and approaching attack range.. and was shot down.

Mistakes were made... but surely the crew and ultimately the Captain of the Vincennes was influenced by preceding events.

An civ aircraft taking off from Tehran... outbound... talking to Iranian ATC, with no (None, nada) inbound anything.... Not the same thing.

Not. Even. Close.


b7782a5e7ecd01e434a30b6f27a24d4605d78bf984ed5751e414fe17a77f7387.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: nsp1996
Hmmmm. Far be it from me to contradict His word. But.....

Russia and Israel, while not best of friends, get along and cooperate. They are both rational actors when it comes to their relationship. And frankly. Israel would smoke the Russians: at least in a short fight.

Turkey hates the Russians and the Russians hate Turkey. The only reason they talk right now is because Erdogan is an Islamist dick who blames America for the coup attempt in 2016. Putin buddying up with him is to drive a wedge between Turkey and NATO (US). The Kurd issues was one we and Turkey don't see eye to eye on. Putin and Asad used that. Turkey's decision in 2015 to belatedly enter the fight against ISIS was a positive game changer for us. The basing/geography gave greatly improved our ability to project power in Syria. With the defeat of ISIS, Trump, despite the backlash, sided with Turkey on the Kurd issue. In part to side with a NATO ally and to keep his promise to get troops out. Remember the Kurds have been killing LOTS of Turks in Turkey for years. They were critical in the fight against ISIS, and America loves the underdog. However they aren't exactly good neighbors either. Trump sided with a long term ally (despite their current anti-American leader). Long term, this was the right play. Turkey just wants to secure its border for further attacks. They've done that. Turkey, Iran and Iraq all hate the Kurds. In 2018, post Mosul, they quickly teamed and squashed the Peshmerga's attempt at gaining independence from Iraq.

Isreal's wealth? If you mean the billions in foreign aid we give them to sustain them, then yeah, they are wealthy. But not really. I admire the fight in the Israelis but they 1) spy and steal from us and 2) would not exist without our support. American tax dollars finance their security. Israel's GDP is around $400 Million annually. To put this in perspective, South Carolina's is aournd $200 Billion annually. Texas is at $1.6 trillion by itself which is about the same size as Russia's GDP. US aid this year to Israel is $3.3 billion.....slightly more than their GDP.

I've spent far too much time on this.

A very grown up an insightful post which is too much for TI, but good commentary nonetheless. It should have gotten a bunch of likes.

I'd highlight that any coungtry (IRAQ, SYRIA etc. ) are countries with boundaries that were made up. Also I agree with you on Israel, but it's the lone, western, secular state to provide a counterbalance in that whole backward, f-'d up region. So we help them and their existence helps us. Then there is the whole other biblical angle and the overall knowledge that the Jews kinda got a bad deal during WWII and allowing them to have a piece of desert is probably pretty nice.

Kurds. Again you are on point. There is no country called the "Kurd Republic", "United States of Kurds" , or even, "Kurdistan".. there are multiple factions of kurds. Turkey, however is a recognized state and is a member of NATO. Each Kurdish faction in turn helped us because we helped them. We helped them because they helped us. When that business relationship (with each faction) ceases to be good FOR US then it's not good. It's that simple.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PawsFan_
I’d say Russia is projecting some pretty effective power in the Ukraine (which no one seems to talk about anymore) and Syria. They totally changed the game in Syria and saved Asad. Syria was days from crashing when they arrived.

Europe does need to spend more on defense. Many of their military’s are a shell. Especially Germany whose GNP is the highest in Europe. Next to the Brits, the French are probably our biggest proponents.

We’ve wanted to focus on China for 20 years. The ME just keeps pulling resources in.

Argument could be made that Russia is on the right side of Syria, from a "which side is best for the world at large" view. Basically Assad is a psychopath BUT he kept a lid on the damn place. I'm not convinced anyone can actually build a real democracy over there. Closest thing to a country over there that seems to be reasonably stable (aside from Israel) is Jordan, and they are a Kingdom.

Germany is funny because, in small arms at least, Germany has some fine companies. H&K, Walther, Sig-Sauer.......all make damn good small arms. H&K wants to build a rifle to replace the M4 for the US so bad they can taste it.

But when it comes to the big stuff - plus the government has to be committed to actually doing it of course.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nsp1996
Argument could be made that Russia is on the right side of Syria, from a "which side is best for the world at large" view. Basically Assad is a psychopath BUT he kept a lid on the damn place. I'm not convinced anyone can actually build a real democracy over there. Closest thing to a country over there that seems to be reasonably stable (aside from Israel) is Jordan, and they are a Kingdom.

US weapons have to be made in the US. There's no way the US Congress is going to take those jobs away from US Gun Manufacturers...especially since the M4 is made in Columbia. Sorry Hans. Invest in getting your tanks and planes to run.

Russian is in Syria for 2 reasons. 1) Putin wanted to thumb his nose at Obama. and 2) Syria owes Russia a crap ton of money. If Syria falls, Russia would lose all its investment.

Syria was actively using WMD on its own people. They still have lots of chems. Russia has done well moderating them as they don't want any part of WMD incidents either.
 
US weapons have to be made in the US. There's no way the US Congress is going to take those jobs away from US Gun Manufacturers...especially since the M4 is made in Columbia. Sorry Hans. Invest in getting your tanks and planes to run.

Russian is in Syria for 2 reasons. 1) Putin wanted to thumb his nose at Obama. and 2) Syria owes Russia a crap ton of money. If Syria falls, Russia would lose all its investment.

Syria was actively using WMD on its own people. They still have lots of chems. Russia has done well moderating them as they don't want any part of WMD incidents either.

Maybe I'm in the minority. I'm glad Russia is there. Let them spend their money to help a regime who, while not run by Mother Theresa, is a known actor and keeps a lid on Islamic bullshit in order to remain in power. Israel is plenty capable of keeping a Assad led Syria in check.

Whatever Russian military power ...Air, Land or Sea is in the ME, would last minutes or maybe hours in the event of any real conflict with the US. So I say to them, have fun.
 
Last edited:
One has to wonder why Iran didn't ground all civilian traffic in the wake of their attack.

Ah... You haven't spent time in Islamic countries (like found in the ME).

Don't waste a second of your time wondering. Just accept incompetence such as this as normal.

Because it is.
 
Ok, but it’s kind of hard to have much confidence in our citizens at the moment. Seems like people prefer idiocy.

I agree. Our founding fathers (imperfect men doing the best that they could) tried to guard against this... and did a magnificent job. I believe, divinely inspired. Our bi-cameral government , and very importantly.. the electoral college.. are just two ways. What we really need, to counterract these this are congressional term limits. This would further impeed mob rule, which our founding fathers were so afraid of. I also believe that we need to add Supreme Court mandatory retirement limits... our founding fathers could have never imagined someone habitually living so long past the point that they would be intellectually agile as we have now. This, in addition to the fact that they would have had a hard time imagining judges legislating from the bench.
 
US weapons have to be made in the US. There's no way the US Congress is going to take those jobs away from US Gun Manufacturers...especially since the M4 is made in Columbia. Sorry Hans. Invest in getting your tanks and planes to run.

Russian is in Syria for 2 reasons. 1) Putin wanted to thumb his nose at Obama. and 2) Syria owes Russia a crap ton of money. If Syria falls, Russia would lose all its investment.

Syria was actively using WMD on its own people. They still have lots of chems. Russia has done well moderating them as they don't want any part of WMD incidents either.

No disagreement with any of your comments, but I'm not following your point. Maybe just a symptom from several days away from this thread...

Help me get back into your convo, please.
 
I’d say Russia is projecting some pretty effective power in the Ukraine (which no one seems to talk about anymore) and Syria. They totally changed the game in Syria and saved Asad. Syria was days from crashing when they arrived.

Europe does need to spend more on defense. Many of their military’s are a shell. Especially Germany whose GNP is the highest in Europe. Next to the Brits, the French are probably our biggest proponents.

We’ve wanted to focus on China for 20 years. The ME just keeps pulling resources in.

Maybe a little late to comment on this but... Agreed on Russia's impact in Syria. ( on a side note... Not sure why having Assad in power is a bad thing... but that's my personal opinion.)

Also... Ukraine.... sure. Too bad the last admin didn't OK lethal aid that they needed. However...driving irregular forces (with some advanced hardware) across a land border isn't really that impressive on the power projection scale.

I was thinking of the Russian Navy in the Med and their bases in Syria... they are but a thought from total destruction if it ever comes to that in the mind of the US.
 
I agree. Our founding fathers (imperfect men doing the best that they could) tried to guard against this... and did a magnificent job. I believe, divinely inspired. Our bi-cameral government , and very importantly.. the electoral college.. are just two ways. What we really need, to counterract these this are congressional term limits. This would further impeed mob rule, which our founding fathers were so afraid of. I also believe that we need to add Supreme Court mandatory retirement limits... our founding fathers could have never imagined someone habitually living so long past the point that they would be intellectually agile as we have now. This, in addition to the fact that they would have had a hard time imagining judges legislating from the bench.
I think this kind of stuff would have the opposite effect.
 
Let's get the heck out of Iraq. Now that we produce 12 million barrels of oil a day, we don't need them. Just leave. Thank GWB for creating the next Persian Empire.

Can't totally do that. Still need a state to govern remote areas, act as a counterbalance to Iran, and give us bases in the region.

We jacked up Iran beyond belief. Going to have to remain for a while longer. Afghanistan? Yeah. Leave.
 
Tell us more...

Can't remember if I responded or not. He insinuated that the plane shoot-down was somehow Trumps responsibility.

Detestible.

But it really doesn't matter. Buttigeig is a political novelty in a horribly bad Dem field. He is and will be a non-player. He can go back to Gary Indiana and the idiots who elected him mayor.
 
Ah... You haven't spent time in Islamic countries (like found in the ME).

Don't waste a second of your time wondering. Just accept incompetence such as this as normal.

Because it is.

To give my comments some perspective, I very recently retired as a CAPT in the Navy Reserve. For the last seven years I have worked almost exclusively on CENTCOM issues. I've lived two of the last 5 years in the Middle East. This time last year I was finishing up my last tour. I have been the senior advisor to AFCENT and NAVCENT on air and maritime planning. My civilian job supports AFCENT in a similar capacity.
 
To give my comments some perspective, I very recently retired as a CAPT in the Navy Reserve. For the last seven years I have worked almost exclusively on CENTCOM issues. I've lived two of the last 5 years in the Middle East. This time last year I was finishing up my last tour. I have been the senior advisor to AFCENT and NAVCENT on air and maritime planning. My civilian job supports AFCENT in a similar capacity.

Then you should well know thst the only redeeming quality of the entire region is that it has oil.
 
Ah... You haven't spent time in Islamic countries (like found in the ME).

Don't waste a second of your time wondering. Just accept incompetence such as this as normal.

Because it is.

Just like incompetence can be found anywhere or are you just being straight up racist?
 
US weapons have to be made in the US. There's no way the US Congress is going to take those jobs away from US Gun Manufacturers...especially since the M4 is made in Columbia. Sorry Hans. Invest in getting your tanks and planes to run.

Russian is in Syria for 2 reasons. 1) Putin wanted to thumb his nose at Obama. and 2) Syria owes Russia a crap ton of money. If Syria falls, Russia would lose all its investment.

Syria was actively using WMD on its own people. They still have lots of chems. Russia has done well moderating them as they don't want any part of WMD incidents either.

Hans?
HansGruber.jpeg

(BTW, that was supposedly Rickman's first movie role EVARRRRR)

To the weapons, they have to be made in the US, but not by a US Company. I don't know that the US currently uses a small arm made by a US company.

M4 - FN, Belgium, as you stated, but at a US plant. H&K has an update with piston drive (as opposed to direct impingement) but the benefits don't seem to be worth the cost)
M9 - Beretta, Italy (also the oldest continually operating company in the world I think)
M17 - Sig/Sauer, Germany. Why, BTW?
M249 - FN, still Belgium, probably made in Columbia right beside the M4
Marines' bomb-throwing revolver (M32) - US made, but a South African design (man the South Africans make some really cool guns). Made by a US-based split off of a SA company.

The M9 was kind of a shitstorm because people didn't like the idea of relying on a foreign country for a weapon. But hell - no country ever lost a war because their pistols sucked.

Funny story - the L85 rifle the British use absolutely sucked donkey balls on first iteration. Guess who finally took over the project and fixed it?

H&K. A German company. Though they were technically owned by the British somehow.

BTW I am not an H&K fanboy of any sort.

My statement was kind of a joke anyway because having good gun manufacturers (which the freaking Germans do) doesn't necessarily result in a strong military.
 
Last edited:
Just like incompetence can be found anywhere or are you just being straight up racist?

Just straight up stating what I believe to be true based upon my personal, on the ground observations and what I see in the news, know from information I get from co-workers etc.

Individual incompetence.? Of course it happens all the time, everywhere. I live in Florida. There is crazy stupid stuff that happens here every day.

There is just a whole lot of governmental and organizational "incompetence" concentrated in the ME.... Morso than, let's say Europe. Or North America. Or, South America. Or Australia. Or Asia. Or most of SE Asia. If you think that make me racist, well then you do.
 
Just straight up stating what I believe to be true based upon my personal, on the ground observations and what I see in the news, know from information I get from co-workers etc.

Individual incompetence.? Of course it happens all the time, everywhere. I live in Florida. There is crazy stupid stuff that happens here every day.

There is just a whole lot of governmental and organizational "incompetence" concentrated in the ME.... Morso than, let's say Europe. Or North America. Or, South America. Or Australia. Or Asia. Or most of SE Asia. If you think that make me racist, well then you do.

Well, is that incompetence based on hundreds of years of colonial influence and religious infighting leading to their lack of experience managing processes and governments in a western way, or do you just think Arabs are dumb?
 
Well, is that incompetence based on hundreds of years of colonial influence and religious infighting leading to their lack of experience managing processes and governments in a western way, or do you just think Arabs are dumb?

I've always been treated well out in town. You are a guest and the Arab/Muslim culture values treating guests with hospitality. From a busines perspective, many, not all, are corrupt and lazy. And most GCC Arabs will not do manual labor. They bring in hundreds of thousand of Pacific Muslims in to be their laborers. Their tribes are like mini-Mafias. Their loyalty to their family, tribe and Shiekh come before loyalty to their country or government. That's why its difficult for us to deal with them govt to govt. Big govt doesn't influence the Shiekhs. You better have some watsa built up to get things done. Nepotism reigns supreme. They can be a pain in the butt. They will flex their authority whenever they can to make sure you know they are the man, Now, if they consider you a friend, if you have helped them.....they will make stuff happen for you fast. Then, getting a hard problem solved is just a phone call away.

Understand that each country has a different personality. Saudi is the big dog. Richest, biggest, and on paper, the most powerful. They are the keeper of Mecca and Medina. They think their sh!t doesn't stink. UAE is the jewel. They are the little brother that likes to show big brother (Saudi) up. Bahrain is a small island with a Sunni king and lots a Shia. They depend on Saudi for protection so will pretty much toe the Saudi line. Qatar is the crazy cousin no one currently likes. King Al Thani has ticked the GCC royally since he took the thrown. He's Islamicly conservative. He's quietly funneled money to the Muslim Brotherhood whose charter is to make the whole world and Islamic State....which means kings are not needed: only Imans. Kuwait is a bit like Saudi but is still nervous about Iraq and conscience that they border Iran. Omani's are wishy washy. They just want everyone to get along and don't take a side on many issues. Afghan is tribal. The people don't care about a central government. And the central govt can really govern such a large country. Iraq, well I think they are improving but the Arab Sunni, Arab Shia, Kurd Sunni dynamic means its tough for them to get consenus on issues. They've just had so many bombs dropped on them in the last 20 years its hard for the average guy to live a stable life. I feel for them in that way.

At the end of the day, you are an infidel. They will be your friend, but you are beneath them. Many respect America's status and that gives you street cred. But you are still not their peer in their eyes. You are a Christian on their soil and that makes them nervous as well. The Crusades are alive and well in many of their eyes.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Rychek4
Well, is that incompetence based on hundreds of years of colonial influence and religious infighting leading to their lack of experience managing processes and governments in a western way, or do you just think Arabs are dumb?
Lack of education. They know the Koran. They know what their Shiekhs and father tell them. They are a highly censored society which means outside ideas do not flow in.
 
Last edited:
They have shawarma's too.
Iran doesn’t, because they’re not Arabs and weren’t part of the Ottoman Empire. Which is one reason why it doesn’t quite make sense to say it’s “racist” to generalize about the region, whether the generalization is true or not.
 
Last edited:
Shawarma's aren't an unique Arab dish. Iran does have shawarma's. As does most of the region including Turkey, Israel and the Ukraine. Each country has a slightly different style. I prefer Bahraini shawarm's. For about 6 bucks you can eat like a king.
 
ADVERTISEMENT