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Photo ID

Should we be required to show photo ID to vote?

  • Yea

  • Nay


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I am not usually one to get into the political threads, but I will repeat a point at hand that is being glossed over repeatedly... that these measures are being enacted to stop something that, by most credible reports, is not a problem. One report cites that there have been 31 credible incidents of voter fraud vs. 1 billion ballots cast since the year 2000. Another report showed that a ten year study in Texas brought 2 cases of provable voter fraud vs. tens of millions of ballots.

What is the real motivation, if not to stop something that is not a problem?

-Mr. DT
 
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To the best of my knowledge, the best place to get a photo ID is the DMV. If you have to go to the DMV, you better plan for it taking the whole morning or the whole afternoon. If you're someone who struggles with transportation or not having an ID in the first place, you probably have an hourly job. I know most of you who don't see a problem with these laws think that the people who are affected by this law don't have jobs, but you'd be wrong for most of them. If you have an hourly job, you may find it difficult to get that time off to go to the DMV, even if you can get there. And you may not be able to afford the lost wages from taking the time off to get to the DMV.

In NC, to be eligible for your free ID, in addition to having to physically go to the DMV, you have to provide any two of:

  • Driver license (LOL)
  • Birth certificate (costs money)
  • Social security card (requires photo ID to get a card! LOL!)
  • North Carolina school documentation (what if you didn't go to school in NC?)
  • Military ID
  • Court document
This discussion also leaves out the fact that most of these voter ID laws also restrict early voting, which is mostly popular with lower socio-economic status individuals who work hourly jobs. These people tend to be minorities. The Ohio law actually expanded early voting in whiter districts and restricted it in majority-minority districts.

As with most things, it's not as simple as saying "should people have an ID, yes or no?" I'm fine with requiring an ID to vote. Make it really easy to get an ID.

The thing that these sorts of debates have really crystallized for me is the degree to which most Republicans just actively refuse to have any empathy for their fellow man. Which is hilarious because most Republicans identify as Christian, and I think empathy is a Christian value. Perhaps I'm wrong about that though. I'm sure a bunch of people are about to tell me so, but I'm going to go back to doing my salaried job that lets me have time off to go to the DMV.
Lol! Yep, Christians can't stand for anything these days without people twisting what Christian values really are. 4 years and can get to the DMV? Give me a break
 
I am not usually one to get into the political threads, but I will repeat a point at hand that is being glossed over repeatedly... that these measures are being enacted to stop something that, by most credible reports, is not a problem. One report cites that there have been 31 credible incidents of voter fraud vs. 1 billion ballots cast since the year 2000. Another report showed that a ten year study in Texas brought 2 cases of provable voter fraud vs. tens of millions of ballots.

What is the real motivation, if not to stop something that is not a problem?

-Mr. DT
i will throw out there that the wall street journal had a more moderate take on those studies...

either there is little voting fraud happening... or.... voting fraud is very hard to detect and quantify.

studies that have attempted to link voter IDs with deceased SSNs have shown very little evidence of fraud.
 
I am not usually one to get into the political threads, but I will repeat a point at hand that is being glossed over repeatedly... that these measures are being enacted to stop something that, by most credible reports, is not a problem. One report cites that there have been 31 credible incidents of voter fraud vs. 1 billion ballots cast since the year 2000. Another report showed that a ten year study in Texas brought 2 cases of provable voter fraud vs. tens of millions of ballots.

What is the real motivation, if not to stop something that is not a problem?

-Mr. DT

Apparently appalachiatiger witnessed all 31 incidents of voter fraud cited.
 
and yet 21 million people live without it, and there is no law that requires it. you say it is a part of living, but that doesn't make it true.

i'm going to conceed, i don't know where the 21 million number came from... i even believe it to be significantly lower...

but even if it is only 2 million (less than 1% of the population), then i'm still going to say they have a right to vote.

Well I'm glad you conceded on the 21 million, I have no idea where you were getting that number. Sounds made up to me.

Secondly, who is talking about taking away their right to vote?
 
Lol! Yep, Christians can't stand for anything these days without people twisting what Christian values really are. 4 years and can get to the DMV? Give me a break


Attempting to suppress a persons constitutional right to vote under the charade/lie of solving a problem that does not exist is not very Christian no?
 
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Well I'm glad you conceded on the 21 million, I have no idea where you were getting that number. Sounds made up to me.

Secondly, who is talking about taking away their right to vote?
someone else threw it out, i think a dem congresswoman used it once... i don't believe it, but i've not seen anyone else posit a number of people who don't have the ID required to vote but are otherwise eligible.

it is impeeding their right to vote, putting an undue burden on them. now if it is easy and free to get a non operator photo voter id card, then great. from what i've read, the folks who don't have drivers licenses generally don't have their birth certificate or any of the other docs that would be required to certify you.

there are people who for whatever reason, are completely off the grid. homeless, etc.

i don't know what the solution is. a voter id requirement makes good sense to me if you can find a way to make it easy for the easily disenfranchised to get photo IDs... but how do you make sure there isn't fraud when they get them?

i'm guessing most homeless folks aren't carrying their birth certificate.
 
To the best of my knowledge, the best place to get a photo ID is the DMV. If you have to go to the DMV, you better plan for it taking the whole morning or the whole afternoon. If you're someone who struggles with transportation or not having an ID in the first place, you probably have an hourly job. I know most of you who don't see a problem with these laws think that the people who are affected by this law don't have jobs, but you'd be wrong for most of them. If you have an hourly job, you may find it difficult to get that time off to go to the DMV, even if you can get there. And you may not be able to afford the lost wages from taking the time off to get to the DMV.

In NC, to be eligible for your free ID, in addition to having to physically go to the DMV, you have to provide any two of:

  • Driver license (LOL)
  • Birth certificate (costs money)
  • Social security card (requires photo ID to get a card! LOL!)
  • North Carolina school documentation (what if you didn't go to school in NC?)
  • Military ID
  • Court document
This discussion also leaves out the fact that most of these voter ID laws also restrict early voting, which is mostly popular with lower socio-economic status individuals who work hourly jobs. These people tend to be minorities. The Ohio law actually expanded early voting in whiter districts and restricted it in majority-minority districts.

As with most things, it's not as simple as saying "should people have an ID, yes or no?" I'm fine with requiring an ID to vote. Make it really easy to get an ID.

The thing that these sorts of debates have really crystallized for me is the degree to which most Republicans just actively refuse to have any empathy for their fellow man. Which is hilarious because most Republicans identify as Christian, and I think empathy is a Christian value. Perhaps I'm wrong about that though. I'm sure a bunch of people are about to tell me so, but I'm going to go back to doing my salaried job that lets me have time off to go to the DMV.

well said.
 
No offense taken. Voting polls are generally located closer to the folks voting in them than a DMV office. Also, just because a person has had to figure out how to get to a poll should not be the basis of then saying you need to figure out how to get to the DMV first.

That logic is like saying: hey, if you could afford to by a car, why don't you buy two cars then?
No its like saying that you can afford a car, you can afford to take and pay for the license.
 
@iceheart08 @Orangeoveralls @toolucky52384

How about this for a solution to your made up problem of people somehow not being able to get to a dmv once in their adult life.

When the census comes around the census taker, captures a picture of everyone in the house that is 15 years old or older and has proof of us citizenship , and mails a government id. If your were to turn 18 between a census a local government official would come to visit and do the same.
 
@iceheart08 @Orangeoveralls @toolucky52384

How about this for a solution to your made up problem of people somehow not being able to get to a dmv once in their adult life.

When the census comes around the census taker, captures a picture of everyone in the house that is 15 years old or older and has proof of us citizenship , and mails a government id. If your were to turn 18 between a census a local government official would come to visit and do the same.
i think what you are propsing is inefficent and would not solve problem of homeless, etc.

also i dont conceed that the ability to get to a dmv is the primary obstacle. the documentation required to get a photo ID is in many places 2 of a series of documents that the person may or may not have.

i asked the question above... help me answer it...

at what point is effort a poll tax? how much effort / bureaucracy constitutes a tax. if you don't have your birth certificate or ss card, then i'd suggest it is probably quite difficult for you to obtain a photo id.
 
@iceheart08 @Orangeoveralls @toolucky52384

How about this for a solution to your made up problem of people somehow not being able to get to a dmv once in their adult life.

When the census comes around the census taker, captures a picture of everyone in the house that is 15 years old or older and has proof of us citizenship , and mails a government id. If your were to turn 18 between a census a local government official would come to visit and do the same.
i'd also throw out there that voting fraud is an incredibly inefficient crime. think of the effort required to obtain a 100 vote advantage? you couldn't possibly do it yourself, so you'd have to recruit people to help you (and they'd have to be willing to risk prosecution to assist), you'd have to get names of people to impersonate, and spend how many effort hours?

i think it would be a lot easier to blackmail someone on the election commission... catch them cheating on their wife or something and get them to assist in a ballot box stuffing effort... that's where the real votes are... ballot box stuffing... not voter impersonation.
 
and all 3 federal appeals court judges who struck down the NC law today.

NC Laws included:

The voting law imposed a voter ID requirement, cut early voting opportunities, eliminated same-day voter registration and banned out-of-precinct voting, among other provisions.

Every single one of these applies in way higher percentages to people that vote for Democrats and happened to enacted immediately when Republicans took control of all 3 branches of the state government. I don't see how anybody can sit here and actually believe the NC Voter Law was anything other than an attempt to suppress vote of people less likely to vote Republican.

Trump wants to fix a system that is rigged. This would be a great place to start.

I am fine with the Republicans enacting these policies and simple saying we did it to help keep power. Fine. At least you are being honest. Republicans are not the only party that try to maintain power by any means necessary.
 
So far, @appalachiatiger has claimed to have "witnessed fraud," has been asked by multiple posters to explain what happened, and has not replied to a single one. He has posted since those questions were asked. Why not answer the question app?? You love laying these claims out there, then do nothing about it. Could it be because IT DIDNT HAPPEN, BUT IT'S ALL IN YOUR HEAD?? Like the story of your "son" being kidnapped? How has anyone else not realized that he is schizophrenic and makes all of this shit up?
 
Used to say yes, but have changed my mind. Almost no evidence of voter fraud, stiff penalties already in place if caught, such a time consuming and likely low impact crime.

Photo id laws are intended to prevent the urban population from voting. Now if the US adopted sine type of universal government issued photo id I'd be in favor of the requirement, but I would be against the US using a universal ID.





Just 2 I found within a 30 second search on youtube.
 




Just 2 I found within a 30 second search on youtube.
i think you and i have different definitions of almost no evidence. 19 cases in the 2012 election for the state in the second video. that pretty much makes my point of it being a non issue.

the first video, shows dead ssn voting... which has been found to be mostly clerical errors by poll workers in a south carolina study.
 
i think you and i have different definitions of almost no evidence. 19 cases in the 2012 election for the state in the second video. that pretty much makes my point of it being a non issue.

the first video, shows dead ssn voting... which has been found to be mostly clerical errors by poll workers in a south carolina study.
Would you consider either of these cases to be wrong? I mean I think any voter fraud at all is wrong.
 
Clearly, the issue is at least tinged in politics and often racial politics.

I generally agree that having a government-issued ID is no big deal for most of us. However, as one poster noted, states like Alabama closed DMVs in heavily poor and rural areas making it difficult for people to even get government ID cards. There is no doubt that the impact of such actions falls mainly on the poor and largely minority citizens.

Perhaps states should send mobile vans to poor areas to provide government-issued IDs?

There is another alternative. Allow people to vote without ID cards if they are willing to sign affidavits that they live where they say they live and they are who they say they are. Those ballots are held in a separate repository from ones from citizens with proof of ID. When the ballots are counted the ones in the separate repository are included only if there are enough to swing the election in a different direction. And efforts are made to verify that what they swore to is true.

The larger question that likely needs to be answered is: Do states that require voter ID laws have lower rates of voter fraud than those that have no restrictions? If not, then it probably is not worth the political fight.
 
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Would you consider either of these cases to be wrong? I mean I think any voter fraud at all is wrong.
yes. it should be prosecuted. if someone is found to be guilty of knowingly committing voter fraud they should be locked up. i advocated for this without any provocation very early in this thread.
 




Just 2 I found within a 30 second search on youtube.

This argument that because there are so few cases of fraud means it's not a problem, is like saying: I put out a mouse trap; caught 1 mouse, so there are no more mice. I think the bigger problem is that voter fraud is hard to police. That's why it should be prosecuted to the max when it is found. Free and fair elections is one thing that keeps us from becoming a banana republic.
 
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This argument that because there are so few cases of fraud means it's not a problem, is like saying: I put out a mouse trap; caught 1 mouse, so there are no more mice. I think the bigger problem is that voter fraud is hard to police. That's why it should be prosecuted to the max when it is found. Free and fair elections is one thing that keeps us from becoming a banana republic.
i don't know what the procedures are at the polls when suspect activity happens... i'm worried it is perhaps a catch and release type system... agree 100%, there should be procedures in place to catch people in the act and prosecute.

as i've pointed out, voter fraud is kind of a high risk crime for little reward. if you impersonate someone living then you need to vote before them. if you impersonate someone dead, you don't know how good the state records are. states should keep voter id databases up to date with death certs and catch and prossecute fraud.
 
cry me a river! lol

Thanks for proving my point about empathy.

What is the cost of a green card? At least as much, maybe more than a photo I'd I suspect! We give those out like candy, at tax payer cost...

What does a green card have to do with anything? You can't vote with a green card.

Lol! Yep, Christians can't stand for anything these days without people twisting what Christian values really are. 4 years and can get to the DMV? Give me a break

What are Christian values? Also, thanks for actually engaging with the conversation instead of repeating tired talking points that I've just illustrated are false like a simpleton.
 
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The problem is a national election can turn on just a few counties or even precincts in just a few swing states. It doesn't take as much fraud as one might think to steal an election. Of course, in local elections, it's even simpler.

http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA636.html

And this is really the bigger issue with our election process. You wanna talk voter suppression? If you're a Republican living in Illinois or NY or California you might as well not even vote, those states and their electoral votes are going Democrat. Flip it around: you a Demo living in SC or UT or WY? Might as well not even vote. Only think it happens nationally? I live in Sumter, no matter what my vote Clyburn's gonna win this district. And I'm sure you can find plenty more examples that favor BOTH sides.

And to compound the issue: the presidential election really comes down to, as you said, a few key precincts in battleground states. They might as well just let a couple suburbs in Cleveland, DC, and Miami vote for president. Sure would save a lot of time. IMO I really think we are at the point where we could do away with the Electoral College. One man, one vote. Heck even the South Africans were able to make that happen!
 
Would you consider either of these cases to be wrong? I mean I think any voter fraud at all is wrong.
the woman in the second video was given a 5 year prison sentence. which i applaud.

i made the point early on in this thread that voter fraud is an unsophisticated crime that someone can easily get caught doing. if you make the punishment severe enough to dissuade people then you eliminate most of the fraud.

5 year prison sentence versus 24 votes that likely won't matter. glad she got what was coming to her.
 
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And this is really the bigger issue with our election process. You wanna talk voter suppression? If you're a Republican living in Illinois or NY or California you might as well not even vote, those states and their electoral votes are going Democrat. Flip it around: you a Demo living in SC or UT or WY? Might as well not even vote. Only think it happens nationally? I live in Sumter, no matter what my vote Clyburn's gonna win this district. And I'm sure you can find plenty more examples that favor BOTH sides.

And to compound the issue: the presidential election really comes down to, as you said, a few key precincts in battleground states. They might as well just let a couple suburbs in Cleveland, DC, and Miami vote for president. Sure would save a lot of time. IMO I really think we are at the point where we could do away with the Electoral College. One man, one vote. Heck even the South Africans were able to make that happen!
to steal an election by voter fraud would take an incredible effort... to steal an election by ballot stuffing would be much easier.
 
i'd also throw out there that voting fraud is an incredibly inefficient crime. think of the effort required to obtain a 100 vote advantage? you couldn't possibly do it yourself, so you'd have to recruit people to help you (and they'd have to be willing to risk prosecution to assist), you'd have to get names of people to impersonate, and spend how many effort hours?

i think it would be a lot easier to blackmail someone on the election commission... catch them cheating on their wife or something and get them to assist in a ballot box stuffing effort... that's where the real votes are... ballot box stuffing... not voter impersonation.
Yes. It would be inefficient for an individual candidate to attempt to change an election through voting fraud, but if there happened to be a population that did not have the right to vote, yet nearly unanimously voted for a single party, then it would drastically change an election.
 
Yes. It would be inefficient for an individual candidate to attempt to change an election through voting fraud, but if there happened to be a population that did not have the right to vote, yet nearly unanimously voted for a single party, then it would drastically change an election.
i'm not saying it would be inefficent for a candidate. i'm saying it would be inefficent for an operative. the logistics of impersonating enough voters to matter is difficult.

the video posted above shows someone who got caught for voting 8 times, she got a 5 year prison sentence. that is my biggest point, it is a crime that is only worth it if you are able to do it several thousand times, and the logisitics of doing so are very difficult, and any operation that was sophisticated enough to pull it off would leave hundreds of witnesses and a trail right back to you.
 
Used to say yes, but have changed my mind. Almost no evidence of voter fraud, stiff penalties already in place if caught, such a time consuming and likely low impact crime.

Photo id laws are intended to prevent the urban population from voting. Now if the US adopted sine type of universal government issued photo id I'd be in favor of the requirement, but I would be against the US using a universal ID.
What is this guy smoking? Stupid powder?
 
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