Poll: Thoughts on $1.2T and $3.5T spending bills

[nytigerfan]

• I'm just a boring W2 employee, so I don't have that tax treatment unfortunately. Yet Biden's tax proposals would affect me.
• A 1%er paying a single digit tax rate might be a good example of someone not paying their fair share. Perhaps that's where we should focus tax policy...
• I didn't suggest raising taxes on people making minimum wage.
• If you are making minimum wage, you probably should be living at home or have roommates. If your market value is the lowest an employer can legally pay you - that's a personal problem. The dudes cutting my lawn are making $15-20/hr these days.

A lawn care business requires a fairly significant amount of capital to get started, and pretty significant costs for ongoing maintenance. Having a mechanical background helps because you can maintain and repair your own equipment and remove those costs. Let's not pretend that any McDonald's employee can just start their own lawn care business tomorrow.

Higher taxes are inevitable (and I hate paying taxes). History repeats itself again. A repub administration lowers taxes promising that it will pay for itself because people will spend more money in the economy. Instead people just invest more. Our economy implodes. A Democrat is elected and then they have to raise taxes to make up for the shortsightedness of the former repub administration. The only recent exception was GB Sr, who had to raise taxes as a republican to make up for the massive deficits caused by Reagan. Rinse. repeat.

 

[nytigerfan]

The top 1%, top 5% and top 10% all pay MORE than their fair share of the taxes in this country. The numbers bear that out. They pay an outsized portion of their total earnings compared to other groups. The class warfare needs to stop. We don't have a revenue problem in the US. We have a spending problem and we have a serious corruption problem that is ultimately going to bring down our Republic (what's left of it which isn't much). It's so frustrating to see people on the left preying on the ignorance of those they claim to serve to increase their power over the people. The GOP isn't tons better but at least they don't seek to control everyone. They are just stupid.

They pay an outsized portion of their total earnings compared to other groups.

That is simply not true and naive. May be true for wage earners, but not business owners, major shareholders and others who get their income from investments. You know, the truly wealthy people.

 

[scotchtiger]

A lawn care business requires a fairly significant amount of capital to get started, and pretty significant costs for ongoing maintenance. Having a mechanical background helps because you can maintain and repair your own equipment and remove those costs. Let's not pretend that any McDonald's employee can just start their own lawn care business tomorrow.

Higher taxes are inevitable (and I hate paying taxes). History repeats itself again. A repub administration lowers taxes promising that it will pay for itself because people will spend more money in the economy. Instead people just invest more. Our economy implodes. A Democrat is elected and then they have to raise taxes to make up for the shortsightedness of the former repub administration. The only recent exception was GB Sr, who had to raise taxes as a republican to make up for the massive deficits caused by Reagan. Rinse. repeat.

I'm not talking about the owner of the company. I'm talking about the amigo sticking plants in the ground or running the weedeater. Those dudes are making $15+ hr now because of labor demand. The dudes sawing boards for my dock project are the same. My nanny makes that to hang around my house and keep a 1 year old alive.

Point is - if you are making minimum wage, you are woefully unskilled, lazy or 16 years old. We shouldn't legislate a bump in pay without a bump in ability.

Instead of raising taxes, perhaps we reduce spending. Just a thought. Or if you want more revenue, target the example you gave instead of people actually paying their fair share (or more than their fair share).

 

[Willence]

A lawn care business requires a fairly significant amount of capital to get started, and pretty significant costs for ongoing maintenance. Having a mechanical background helps because you can maintain and repair your own equipment and remove those costs. Let's not pretend that any McDonald's employee can just start their own lawn care business tomorrow.

Higher taxes are inevitable (and I hate paying taxes). History repeats itself again. A repub administration lowers taxes promising that it will pay for itself because people will spend more money in the economy. Instead people just invest more. Our economy implodes. A Democrat is elected and then they have to raise taxes to make up for the shortsightedness of the former repub administration. The only recent exception was GB Sr, who had to raise taxes as a republican to make up for the massive deficits caused by Reagan. Rinse. repeat.

Our economy implodes? Seriously? The economy was fantastic for everyone before all this. Covid is not an implosion in the manner you can assign to a party. Democrats don't just raise taxes. They raise spending as well and then leave the next president with a mess of spending and taxes that are too high. This is a chicken and egg argument but ultimately, we need to spend far, far less.

This begins with the realization that government should protect our borders, defender our nation (military and environmental), regulate commerce and that's about it. They are not needed for anything more. Providing for retirement income, programs for poverty, etc. are outside its scope and something it doesn't do well. There's only ever single fact you can possibly find to demonstrate this loud and clear.

It's staggering to me that someone as bright as you can't seem to recognize these facts. Is it that you're just that invested in the partisan warfare going on? Why not open your eyes and see the the right answers don't fall on one side or the other. They are all around us and the tribalism is out there to keep us blind to reality.

 

[scotchtiger]

They pay an outsized portion of their total earnings compared to other groups.

That is simply not true and naive. May be true for wage earners, but not business owners, major shareholders and others who get their income from investments. You know, the truly wealthy people.

So why not just focus tax changes on truly wealthy people? $400K/yr isn't truly wealthy. Even the cap gains proposal doesn't target the truly wealthy.

 

[Willence]

They pay an outsized portion of their total earnings compared to other groups.

That is simply not true and naive. May be true for wage earners, but not business owners, major shareholders and others who get their income from investments. You know, the truly wealthy people.

If you want to access people's wealth in this way, where does it end? The government has no right to any of that. Hence my point that there should be no tax on businesses. Perhaps a consumption based tax would satisfy you but that would require abolition of any income tax for all time.

 

[Willence]

So why not just focus tax changes on truly wealthy people? $400K/yr isn't truly wealthy. Even the cap gains proposal doesn't target the truly wealthy.

The only way to do that is to start confiscating wealth. Considering most of the wealthy support the leftist agenda (because it gives them more power through corruption/influence over everyone) it should be self-evident that what is bring proposed won't solve any issues here. Even if you confiscated some of the wealth of these folks and redistributed the money it wouldn't help those in the bottom half. My experience over 26 years dealing with all this is that people who can't save don't suddenly start saving once they have money. Again, we can just go to the map and see that in practice with most lottery winners and how many end up flat broke again.

I just don't understand how people think they are entitled to decided how much of other people's money they can take to continue their corrupt and wasteful spending that never does anything but fuel our downfall. It's not your money...

 

[scotchtiger]

I just don't understand how people think they are entitled to decided how much of other people's money they can take to continue their corrupt and wasteful spending that never does anything but fuel our downfall. It's not your money...

But don't tell the resident libs that. They will happily force my family to pay more to pay for their big government ideas, all while many of them enjoy their single digit "contribution."

 

[yoshi121374]

But don't tell the resident libs that. They will happily force my family to pay more to pay for their big government ideas, all while many of them enjoy their single digit "contribution."

I don't think that you are including me, but I am a Dual Income, No children, married man. I pay waaaayyy more than most wealthy in taxes and I'm generally ok with that. I know that good infrastructure is necessary for business growth and the security of our country.

I work hard, I save and invest, and I want the best for my family. I also have worked for some large corporations and I know without a doubt that they will pay as little as they possibly can in wages and taxes. They have one lord and master and that is the stock holder and earnings report. I firmly believe that minimum wages and federal worker protections and environmental laws are necessary to keep corporations honest.

 

[WapPride]

But don't tell the resident libs that. They will happily force my family to pay more to pay for their big government ideas, all while many of them enjoy their single digit "contribution."

this is such a horseshit comment with no backing at all. there are plenty of uber rich that agree that there needs to be higher taxes on higher earners.

Bill Gates: My $109 billion net worth shows the economy is not fair

"A few people end up with a great deal—I've been disproportionately rewarded for the work I've done—while many others who work just as hard struggle to get by," Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates wrote in a blog post reflecting on 2019.

www.cnbc.com

 

[jakefest]

this is such a horseshit comment with no backing at all. there are plenty of uber rich that agree that there needs to be higher taxes on higher earners.

Bill Gates: My $109 billion net worth shows the economy is not fair

"A few people end up with a great deal—I've been disproportionately rewarded for the work I've done—while many others who work just as hard struggle to get by," Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates wrote in a blog post reflecting on 2019.

www.cnbc.com

Microsoft paid an effective tax rate of 16% in 2020 despite 96% growth. Bill says that because he knows they aren't coming after him just out of the sheer amount of money he donates. They are targeting the bottom 5% of the bracket.

What else ya got?

 

[jakefest]

Microsoft paid an effective tax rate of 16% in 2020 despite 96% growth. Bill says that because he knows they aren't coming after him just out of the sheer amount of money he donates. They are targeting the bottom 5% of the bracket.

What else ya got?

Before you go looking for another one, Nike paid 12%, Google 16%, Amazon 9% and Bezos was another one suggesting they should pay more when he didn't even hit the 21% number put in by your favorite president Trump. These are all corps that had record profit years. Nike cares so much about the country and the people that they've moved most of their jobs to Asia, where their tax rate is a moot point and they pay workers about a 25th what they would pay an American employee.

Nike, in order to avoid payroll taxes last year compensated a large swath of their exec level employees with no vest period stock grants and then used the money they saved to execute stock buy backs. Genius in my opinion.

Stop listening to these mouthpiece evangelists that tell you they are willing to give up their money to the government.......it's utter nonsense because they know they will never have to.

 

[jakefest]

A lawn care business requires a fairly significant amount of capital to get started, and pretty significant costs for ongoing maintenance. Having a mechanical background helps because you can maintain and repair your own equipment and remove those costs. Let's not pretend that any McDonald's employee can just start their own lawn care business tomorrow.

Higher taxes are inevitable (and I hate paying taxes). History repeats itself again. A repub administration lowers taxes promising that it will pay for itself because people will spend more money in the economy. Instead people just invest more. Our economy implodes. A Democrat is elected and then they have to raise taxes to make up for the shortsightedness of the former repub administration. The only recent exception was GB Sr, who had to raise taxes as a republican to make up for the massive deficits caused by Reagan. Rinse. repeat.

But why is the guy at McDonalds different than my first generation (legal) immigrant landscaper who within two years of coming to the States, managed to scrape nickels together to start his own business? I would think he would face much larger challenges in getting started.......even just the language barrier (he speaks very little english).

Can you back up the imploding economy with facts or are you going to use Covid? The economy wasn't in trouble when Trump was in office and to be more than fair, my taxes went up under Trump to counter the whole "he gave the 1% a pass" bullshit.

 

[scotchtiger]

this is such a horseshit comment with no backing at all. there are plenty of uber rich that agree that there needs to be higher taxes on higher earners.

Bill Gates: My $109 billion net worth shows the economy is not fair

"A few people end up with a great deal—I've been disproportionately rewarded for the work I've done—while many others who work just as hard struggle to get by," Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates wrote in a blog post reflecting on 2019.

www.cnbc.com

The surest sign I’m dealing with a liberal lackey is using the ole billionaire example to justify increased taxes on people making $400K. Good lord what a stupid argument.

 

[Willence]

my taxes went up under Trump to counter the whole "he gave the 1% a pass" bullshit.

The argument that the Trump tax cut benefited the rich is intellectually dishonest. On a dollars basis, it did because the bottom 50% pay almost no taxes and the folks just about the 50% marker pay very little. 30% of $10 is more than 50% of $5.

It's so odd to me all these folks who want business taxes. That's a sign there's not a lot of understanding of how economics works. Best bet is no corporate tax whatsoever. After all, who pays all the corporate taxes? The lower level employees in the form of lower wages and the people who buy products in the form of higher prices which disproportionately impacts lower wage earners. Best way is to have a consumption based tax system with no income tax. That way the people who have more, consume more and buy more will pay the most in taxes. On top of all that, we could see actual wage growth and we could totally get rid of all government based aid programs.

Of course, for this to work, people would have to decide they prefer freedom to having power over people and forcing them to do what they want.

 

[nytigerfan]

But why is the guy at McDonalds different than my first generation (legal) immigrant landscaper who within two years of coming to the States, managed to scrape nickels together to start his own business? I would think he would face much larger challenges in getting started.......even just the language barrier (he speaks very little english).

Can you back up the imploding economy with facts or are you going to use Covid? The economy wasn't in trouble when Trump was in office and to be more than fair, my taxes went up under Trump to counter the whole "he gave the 1% a pass" bullshit.

I have no idea why they are different because I don't know them. But there could a hundred different factors that contributed to them being different.

My taxes went down under Trump, as did most people who get most of their income through shareholder wealth and owning businesses. I can't speak for you or other w2 employees. But if you believe that the richest people in this country do it through w2 income... yikes.

 

[WapPride]

Microsoft paid an effective tax rate of 16% in 2020 despite 96% growth. Bill says that because he knows they aren't coming after him just out of the sheer amount of money he donates. They are targeting the bottom 5% of the bracket.

What else ya got?

he literally says in the article that he and melinda, along with a host of other billionaries (Buffett included) all think they should be taxed more. there are direct quotes from him and buffett talking about how they personally need to be taxed more

 

[WapPride]

The surest sign I’m dealing with a liberal lackey is using the ole billionaire example to justify increased taxes on people making $400K. Good lord what a stupid argument.

a liberal lackey? i've voted R my entire life until trump in '16 and '20. i even voted R locally in '18 and in '20. furthermore, my fiancee and i will be directly impacted by the increase for people making over $400k/year - i just realize that paying an increase in 2% on every dollar over $400k isn't something to boohoo about.

 

[DW4_2016]

The argument that the Trump tax cut benefited the rich is intellectually dishonest. On a dollars basis, it did because the bottom 50% pay almost no taxes and the folks just about the 50% marker pay very little. 30% of $10 is more than 50% of $5.

It's so odd to me all these folks who want business taxes. That's a sign there's not a lot of understanding of how economics works. Best bet is no corporate tax whatsoever. After all, who pays all the corporate taxes? The lower level employees in the form of lower wages and the people who buy products in the form of higher prices which disproportionately impacts lower wage earners. Best way is to have a consumption based tax system with no income tax. That way the people who have more, consume more and buy more will pay the most in taxes. On top of all that, we could see actual wage growth and we could totally get rid of all government based aid programs.

Of course, for this to work, people would have to decide they prefer freedom to having power over people and forcing them to do what they want.

oh my.

 

[Willence]

oh my.

Nice argument. It is factually correct.

 

[Willence]

he literally says in the article that he and melinda, along with a host of other billionaries (Buffett included) all think they should be taxed more. there are direct quotes from him and buffett talking about how they personally need to be taxed more

The federal government spends about $13 billion dollars a day right now. How much do you really think you're going to get if you tax these people more? Maybe enough to pay for a couple days? It's a straw man argument for bigger plans for others. It's a trojan horse. It's kind of crazy you don't see that.

 

[jakefest]

I have no idea why they are different because I don't know them. But there could a hundred different factors that contributed to them being different.

My taxes went down under Trump, as did most people who get most of their income through shareholder wealth and owning businesses. I can't speak for you or other w2 employees. But if you believe that the richest people in this country do it through w2 income... yikes.

So you have no idea why the guy at McDonalds can't do the same but you're confident that he can't? Weak as fugg argument.

 

[scotchtiger]

a liberal lackey? i've voted R my entire life until trump in '16 and '20. i even voted R locally in '18 and in '20. furthermore, my fiancee and i will be directly impacted by the increase for people making over $400k/year - i just realize that paying an increase in 2% on every dollar over $400k isn't something to boohoo about.

You do realize how ridiculous it is to use Bill Gates as an reference point for increased taxes on people making $400K, right?

 

[jakefest]

You do realize how ridiculous it is to use Bill Gates as an reference point for increased taxes on people making $400K, right?

More to the point......lots of left leaning wealthy folk avoiding federal income taxes but yes, let's stick it to the $400k earners in Manhattan for example.

The Secret IRS Files: Trove of Never-Before-Seen Records Reveal How the Wealthiest Avoid Income Tax

ProPublica has obtained a vast cache of IRS information showing how billionaires like Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk and Warren Buffett pay little in income tax compared to their massive wealth — sometimes, even nothing.

www.propublica.org

 

[nytigerfan]

So why not just focus tax changes on truly wealthy people? $400K/yr isn't truly wealthy. Even the cap gains proposal doesn't target the truly wealthy.

You do realize that if you get your wish and they just move the thresholds and tax the "truly wealthy", then you become the person you claim to hate. Someone else will be saying "I cant imagine being so pathetic like @scotchtiger that I would expect someone else to pay for me!"

So you have no idea why the guy at McDonalds can't do the same but you're confident that he can't? Weak as fugg argument.

I didnt say that.

 

[scotchtiger]

You do realize that if you get your wish and they just move the thresholds and tax the "truly wealthy", then you become the person you claim to hate. Someone else will be saying "I cant imagine being so pathetic like @scotchtiger that I would expect someone else to pay for me!"



I didnt say that.

Yea that’s not accurate. I don’t want more government spending, I want less. I don’t want more government programs, I want fewer. I’m not advocating for higher tax rates on anyone. I also pay more than my fair share in taxes.

I’m simply saying that a 1%er family paying a 25% effective rate (with a good CPA) isn’t the problem, and shouldn’t be the victim of leftist tax increases. Look elsewhere if you want to grow your government.

I’m also saying that if you use a billionaire example to justify taxes on 6 and low 7 figure earners, you are an idiot. And if you pay a single digit effective rate and want my family to pay more, you probably have low T and let your wife do the driving.

 

[WapPride]

The federal government spends about $13 billion dollars a day right now. How much do you really think you're going to get if you tax these people more? Maybe enough to pay for a couple days? It's a straw man argument for bigger plans for others. It's a trojan horse. It's kind of crazy you don't see that.

well considering the top 1% pay the lion's share of taxes already - i imagine another 2% is going to be noticeable.

however, as it pertains to your $13b/day in spending - i'd love to trim that down - specifically by targeting defense spending. i think the biggest disconnect is that i believe social welfare programs are a net positive on society whereas the people on the opposite side consider it a waste of money. we can go around all day arguing for or against it, but i doubt anyone's going to change the other's mind so it's probably pointless to continue

 

[WapPride]

You do realize how ridiculous it is to use Bill Gates as an reference point for increased taxes on people making $400K, right?

absolutely - but I'll never let a good opportunity to shitpost go to waste

 

[gardentiger]

Where do we get the money...ah yes, print it. Let our kids figure it out.

 

[Willence]

well considering the top 1% pay the lion's share of taxes already - i imagine another 2% is going to be noticeable.

however, as it pertains to your $13b/day in spending - i'd love to trim that down - specifically by targeting defense spending. i think the biggest disconnect is that i believe social welfare programs are a net positive on society whereas the people on the opposite side consider it a waste of money. we can go around all day arguing for or against it, but i doubt anyone's going to change the other's mind so it's probably pointless to continue

How are they a net positive? The vast majority of the money committed to them never makes it to the person we're trying to help. In many cases almost 70% pays for the government administration of a program and 30% reaches the person in need. That just can't be considered a net positive if we're looking for efficiency. The government has demonstrated in ample ways they are incapable of doing much of anything.

We've spent almost $30T in the war on poverty and things are worse, not better. I want to see us actually help people and it's quite clear at this point we're not doing that. I'm 100% in favor of programs that help with skills gaps and education issues so that people who are in need of assistance can get it and be put in a position to thrive. I'm not in favor of paying government bureaucrats huge amounts of money to feed the beast while doing little to serve the people. No more of that crap.

If you reduced our defense spending and departmental spending to $0, we'd still have a deficit. You can't fix our problems without addressing SS, Medicare, Medicaid and the interest on the debt. Can't get there from here.

 

[scotchtiger]

LOL. If any of these 107 million households (61%) support higher taxes on someone else, they are truly pathetic. Can you imagine contributing nothing to something and asking others to pay more? How embarrassing.

 

[jakefest]

LOL. If any of these 107 million people support higher taxes on someone else, they are truly pathetic. Can you imagine contributing nothing to something and asking others to pay more? How embarrassing.

View embedded media

Anyone know the best way to write off a bunch of black-hawk helicopters, humvees, mraps, weapons, nods, ammunition, drones, etc as losses? Trying to get ahead of 2022 tax season

 

[PawsFan_]

Food for thought. In 20 years, it cost us 2 trillion to fight in Afghanistan. 20 years. A generation.

Congress wants to spend 3 trillion on pork in one year.