Question for more liberal TI members

[Willence]

Are you in favor of the upcoming proposal for a minimum tax including unrealized gains on Americans with more than $100m in net worth? Do you favor taxing unrealized gains of people who have stock holdings in major companies or companies they own? If so, why?

Just trying to understand why this would be supported. It could have so many potential negative effects on the economy and we're already dealing with taxation issues as 57% of Americans paid no income tax last year. Yes, that's largely due to Covid but it's still a major concern. The pre-pandemic percentage of 44% is still alarmingly high.

 

[TinyDan]

I don’t think I’d be in favor of the unrealized gain tax. That sounds similar to a wealth tax, but I’d have to read more about it. Wealth taxes have been implemented elsewhere, and usually, if not always, had a negative outcome

I do think that we need to reform the capital gains tax to be more in line with income taxes, especially above a certain level. It’s one of the big ways the wealthy avoid paying their share.

 

[other1]

FWIW, the tax laws in this country heavily favor the rich to the point where they don't really pay their fair share.

 

[jakefest]

FWIW, the tax laws in this country heavily favor the rich to the point where they don't really pay their fair share.

The rich (1% of the nation) pay more than 40% of all federal income tax.......please do tell me how they don't pay their fair share?

 

[scotchtiger]

FWIW, the tax laws in this country heavily favor the rich to the point where they don't really pay their fair share.

What’s your definition of rich and fair share?

 

[Finsuptiger]

Apparently not a lot of liberal TI members eh!

 

[yoshi121374]

What’s your definition of rich and fair share?

And that's the million dollar question. I truly don't know the answer. This is where my liberal leanings flip to the right, I really hate the way our tax code is designed. I wish every American paid something in taxes. I am dueal income with no kids, my wife and I pay a shit ton in taxes. Generally I'm fine with it, but I do have a problem with so many people paying nothing and even getting money back.

I feel like our current system basically subsidizes companies paying living wages. Company pays $10 an hour,no worries, my taxes will offset that difference in the form of welfare benefits.

I don't know a fair system, but I don't like demonizing people who create jobs. I don't want to penalize people who had the guts to step-out, take the risk, work their ass off and create businesses that add jobs and services to the US.

 

[Willence]

FWIW, the tax laws in this country heavily favor the rich to the point where they don't really pay their fair share.

I do think that we need to reform the capital gains tax to be more in line with income taxes, especially above a certain level. It’s one of the big ways the wealthy avoid paying their share.

This proposed change would impact the very top of the income earning/net worth ladder. Here's a question I have for you. The top 1% make 21% of the total income in this nation and they pay 38.5% of the total taxes paid. Do truly feel that is an unfair proportion? What would be fair in your view?

 

[Willence]

And that's the million dollar question. I truly don't know the answer. This is where my liberal leanings flip to the right, I really hate the way our tax code is designed. I wish every American paid something in taxes. I am dueal income with no kids, my wife and I pay a shit ton in taxes. Generally I'm fine with it, but I do have a problem with so many people paying nothing and even getting money back.

I feel like our current system basically subsidizes companies paying living wages. Company pays $10 an hour,no worries, my taxes will offset that difference in the form of welfare benefits.

I don't know a fair system, but I don't like demonizing people who create jobs. I don't want to penalize people who had the guts to step-out, take the risk, work their ass off and create businesses that add jobs and services to the US.

Really good post in my opinion. Wish there were a lot more reasonable people on this issue like you. And yeah, you do get hammered given what you said. That's a tough area to be in from a taxation standpoint.

 

[yoshi121374]

Really good post in my opinion. Wish there were a lot more reasonable people on this issue like you. And yeah, you do get hammered given what you said. That's a tough area to be in from a taxation standpoint.

There are some of us here, and I have to belive in the US who can have passionate,but measured and fair discussions. I truly believe most of us are reasonable and realize that compromise doesn't make you weak, and if we disagree I don't think that you are evil.

 

[scotchtiger]

And that's the million dollar question. I truly don't know the answer. This is where my liberal leanings flip to the right, I really hate the way our tax code is designed. I wish every American paid something in taxes. I am dueal income with no kids, my wife and I pay a shit ton in taxes. Generally I'm fine with it, but I do have a problem with so many people paying nothing and even getting money back.

I feel like our current system basically subsidizes companies paying living wages. Company pays $10 an hour,no worries, my taxes will offset that difference in the form of welfare benefits.

I don't know a fair system, but I don't like demonizing people who create jobs. I don't want to penalize people who had the guts to step-out, take the risk, work their ass off and create businesses that add jobs and services to the US.

Good post. I have 2 kids, but dual income and we pay a fortune in taxes. Maybe there are some in the 1% who don’t pay their fair share, but it sure as hell isn’t us. And Biden campaigned on increasing taxes on families like mine.

And half the country not paying taxes is a problem. There’s no skin in the game. Nothing to dissuade them from supporting more government spending. No reason to care about the budget.

Unless you are mentally or physically handicapped in some way, or maybe a single parent caring for young children, it should be extraordinarily difficult to get money from the government and you should have to contribute in some way.

 

[CoffeeIsForClosers]

Are you in favor of the upcoming proposal for a minimum tax including unrealized gains on Americans with more than $100m in net worth? Do you favor taxing unrealized gains of people who have stock holdings in major companies or companies they own? If so, why?

Just trying to understand why this would be supported. It could have so many potential negative effects on the economy and we're already dealing with taxation issues as 57% of Americans paid no income tax last year. Yes, that's largely due to Covid but it's still a major concern. The pre-pandemic percentage of 44% is still alarmingly high.

And that's the million dollar question. I truly don't know the answer. This is where my liberal leanings flip to the right, I really hate the way our tax code is designed. I wish every American paid something in taxes. I am dueal income with no kids, my wife and I pay a shit ton in taxes. Generally I'm fine with it, but I do have a problem with so many people paying nothing and even getting money back.

I feel like our current system basically subsidizes companies paying living wages. Company pays $10 an hour,no worries, my taxes will offset that difference in the form of welfare benefits.

I don't know a fair system, but I don't like demonizing people who create jobs. I don't want to penalize people who had the guts to step-out, take the risk, work their ass off and create businesses that add jobs and services to the US.

Good post. I have 2 kids, but dual income and we pay a fortune in taxes. Maybe there are some in the 1% who don’t pay their fair share, but it sure as hell isn’t us. And Biden campaigned on increasing taxes on families like mine.


And half the country not paying taxes is a problem. There’s no skin in the game. Nothing to dissuade them from supporting more government spending. No reason to care about the budget.

Unless you are mentally or physically handicapped in some way, or maybe a single parent caring for young children, it should be extraordinarily difficult to get money from the government and you should have to contribute in some way.

There are obviously some issues with the current tax/welfare system. No one should ever be motivated to not do better for themselves. The fact that we dont make any progress on this ever is absolute insanity.

Just a side note - there are taxes (those based on consumption; sales tax, gas tax, etc) that lower income individuals pay a disproportionately higher percentage of their income than those who make more. That fact seems to be frequently glossed over.

No doubt, everyone should pay their fair share. And taxing unrealized gains just isn’t a realistic tactic. The unintended consequences are just too great. I also don’t think increasing the capital gains rate will have the benefits Dems think they’ll see.

But we need to generate tax revenue somewhere. We can cut spending sure, but that doesn’t even begin to fix the problem. McDonalds can continue to decrease the size of their burgers to cut costs but eventually they just have to increase prices.

The Trump era tax increase under the Secure act essentially did that with investments sheltered in retirement accounts. Where before someone could stretch an inherited IRAs income over a lifetime, they now have 10 years. This cannot be understated as we enter the biggest wealth transfer in our country’s history (boomer to millennial).

Getting rid of loopholes is a great starting point IMO. Seems to me the first most logical step would be to put some common sense limitations on step up in basis. There is a tremendous amount of earnings never taxed because of this advantage the vast majority of this country will never experience in any real sense.

 

[Flying Elvis]

The tax code is way broken. Its impossible to enforce, has too many gray areas, and relies solely on the good nature and fear of the payers. That's the basic problem. If you don't pay taxes, you don't care. Another helicopter drop of COVID money-sure, I don't care if I will never repay it.

The taxation of unrealized gains is immoral. Find another way to gin up income. Hell, estate taxes are immoral if you think about it for a minute-post tax dollars used for a lifetime of investment, now subject to another hit.

I would be very much in favor of a VAT, but you could not trust the current swamp monsters to scrap the other existing codes to go all in. The VAT is a pure consumption tax and does not penalize thrift. Even Reagan was in favor of a VAT but did not trust it to be implemented properly.

 

[Jonada]

Taxing unrealized gains would be stupid because A) What are you going to do, tax them again when they realize the gains? and B) you'd be forcing a lot of people to at least partially liquidate just to come up with the cash to pay the taxes.

Having a minimum income tax rate on households with over $100 million sounds nice in theory, but how do you even manage that? What's the process for verifying who has $99 million and who has $101 million. It just doesn't seem realistic.

If I had it my way I'd start by updating the capital gains tax rates and closing the carried interest loophole.

As for the % of people that don't pay any income taxes, I agree that that's a problem, but the problem isn't that those people aren't paying their fair share.

 

[Willence]

Taxing unrealized gains would be stupid because A) What are you going to do, tax them again when they realize the gains? and B) you'd be forcing a lot of people to at least partially liquidate just to come up with the cash to pay the taxes.

Having a minimum income tax rate on households with over $100 million sounds nice in theory, but how do you even manage that? What's the process for verifying who has $99 million and who has $101 million. It just doesn't seem realistic.

If I had it my way I'd start by updating the capital gains tax rates and closing the carried interest loophole.

As for the % of people that don't pay any income taxes, I agree that that's a problem, but the problem isn't that those people aren't paying their fair share.

I've always thought a flat tax would be best and we could include some rebates for people will income under a certain level. Someone else noted this. Lower income Americans pay no income taxes but pay regressive rates when it comes to sales tax, gas tax, etc. The bigger issue I have is that not only do those folks not pay income tax but they get refundable credits on taxes they didn't pay like the earned income tax credit, etc. We just need to balance it out so that the government isn't subsidizing people's lives. That would put pressure on companies to pay better wages. We don't have to increase minimum wages to put pressure on wages to go up. Corporations know they can pay really low wages because people are going to be subsidized by the government. Disentangling ourselves from that mess we've made is going to be extremely difficult but we need to try.

The other unpopular view I have is there should be a maximum tax rate someone can pay. And it should be at or less than 25%. It was never ever intended that the government would take so much money. If you look back when the income tax was instituted, it was agreed upon that it would be very low. That's gotten away from us completely.

 

[DW4_2016]

Good post. I have 2 kids, but dual income and we pay a fortune in taxes. Maybe there are some in the 1% who don’t pay their fair share, but it sure as hell isn’t us. And Biden campaigned on increasing taxes on families like mine.

And half the country not paying taxes is a problem. There’s no skin in the game. Nothing to dissuade them from supporting more government spending. No reason to care about the budget.

Unless you are mentally or physically handicapped in some way, or maybe a single parent caring for young children, it should be extraordinarily difficult to get money from the government and you should have to contribute in some way.

only read the headlines on this one, but anyone on this board won't be seeing their taxes adjusted with this proposal. this is for guys who build themselves blue chode rocket ships while using public assistance to cover the pay gap for a lot of their workers.

also, i don't see how it is helpful for someone making minimum wage or near minimum wage, who is likely on government assistance already, to pay more in taxes? we're not reducing the free programs, so how would that work? we like to have more dollars in the government's hands?

 

[scotchtiger]

only read the headlines on this one, but anyone on this board won't be seeing their taxes adjusted with this proposal. this is for guys who build themselves blue chode rocket ships while using public assistance to cover the pay gap for a lot of their workers.

also, i don't see how it is helpful for someone making minimum wage or near minimum wage, who is likely on government assistance already, to pay more in taxes? we're not reducing the free programs, so how would that work? we like to have more dollars in the government's hands?

I think we should be reducing the free programs. At least on able-bodied people without young kids. I'm redoing the landscape in our backyard with a new pool addition. Landscaper just pushed back our timeline a month because he can't find people willing to work. Plenty of jobs out there.

 

[DW4_2016]

I think we should be reducing the free programs. At least on able-bodied people without young kids. I'm redoing the landscape in our backyard with a new pool addition. Landscaper just pushed back our timeline a month because he can't find people willing to work. Plenty of jobs out there.

i agree there are jobs and plenty of work to be done. in theory i don't want any government assistance except for those who can prove they're in desperate need (natural disaster victims, etc.) or were the victim of other crimes, etc. i'm saying in reality there is no reducing free programs once they're here, so what do we do?

 

[GoodWord28]

Are you in favor of the upcoming proposal for a minimum tax including unrealized gains on Americans with more than $100m in net worth? Do you favor taxing unrealized gains of people who have stock holdings in major companies or companies they own? If so, why?

Just trying to understand why this would be supported. It could have so many potential negative effects on the economy and we're already dealing with taxation issues as 57% of Americans paid no income tax last year. Yes, that's largely due to Covid but it's still a major concern. The pre-pandemic percentage of 44% is still alarmingly high.

You cant tax unrealized gains without allowing unrealized losses. Everyone would welcome this scenario with open arns.

 

[AugTig]

i agree there are jobs and plenty of work to be done. in theory i don't want any government assistance except for those who can prove they're in desperate need (natural disaster victims, etc.) or were the victim of other crimes, etc. i'm saying in reality there is no reducing free programs once they're here, so what do we do?

A good start would be to quit adding programs.

 

[firegiver]

The rich (1% of the nation) pay more than 40% of all federal income tax.......please do tell me how they don't pay their fair share?

They have 90% of the wealth and only pay 40% of the taxes. Think about that

 

[Willence]

They have 90% of the wealth and only pay 40% of the taxes. Think about that

That's not a fair representation but I would assume you meant it that way to try and support the narrative. The top 1% earn about 21% of the total income and account for 38.5% of the total taxes paid. That is more than enough. I would argue it is too much. We always reference how much they control but consider what they have done and how many people they employ:

Jeff Bezos - Amazon – 1,608,000 employees

Elon Musk - Tesla – 99,290 employees

Mark Zuckerberg - Facebook – 71,970 employees

Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer - Microsoft – 181,000 employees

Larry Page and Sergey Brin – Google – 135,000 employees

Larry Ellison – Oracle – 132,000 employees

Warren Buffet – Berkshire Hathaway – 389,000 employees

Michael Bloomberg – Bloomberg - 16,000 employees

Jim, Alice and Rob Walton – Walmart – 2,300,000 employees

Phil Knight – Nike – 74,000 employees

Koch Family – Koch Industries – 31,535 employees

Michael Dell – Dell Computers - 158,000 employees

Consider how many more millions of people are employed providing supplies, parts, office services, food for employees, software designers, etc. because of these companies. You could go on and one with the enormous impact the risks they took have had on American society and the wealth of this nation. The taxes and wealth controlled by these people is just a fraction of the reality created by the companies they started or run. It's amazing to me how we've gotten to where we demonize these people as if they control some outsized share of America's wealth. Look what they have done???? People who took extraordinary risks with great ideas and they have benefited tremendously while providing so much opportunity for others. That's not a bad thing. The people that don't understand this are just out for power over others or just plain stupid.

 

[DW4_2016]

That's not a fair representation but I would assume you meant it that way to try and support the narrative. The top 1% earn about 21% of the total income and account for 38.5% of the total taxes paid. That is more than enough. I would argue it is too much. We always reference how much they control but consider what they have done and how many people they employ:

Jeff Bezos - Amazon – 1,608,000 employees

Elon Musk - Tesla – 99,290 employees

Mark Zuckerberg - Facebook – 71,970 employees

Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer - Microsoft – 181,000 employees

Larry Page and Sergey Brin – Google – 135,000 employees

Larry Ellison – Oracle – 132,000 employees

Warren Buffet – Berkshire Hathaway – 389,000 employees

Michael Bloomberg – Bloomberg - 16,000 employees

Jim, Alice and Rob Walton – Walmart – 2,300,000 employees

Phil Knight – Nike – 74,000 employees

Koch Family – Koch Industries – 31,535 employees

Michael Dell – Dell Computers - 158,000 employees

Consider how many more millions of people are employed providing supplies, parts, office services, food for employees, software designers, etc. because of these companies. You could go on and one with the enormous impact the risks they took have had on American society and the wealth of this nation. The taxes and wealth controlled by these people is just a fraction of the reality created by the companies they started or run. It's amazing to me how we've gotten to where we demonize these people as if they control some outsized share of America's wealth. Look what they have done???? People who took extraordinary risks with great ideas and they have benefited tremendously while providing so much opportunity for others. That's not a bad thing. The people that don't understand this are just out for power over others or just plain stupid.

Of Jeff Bezos' 1.6 million employees how many are on government assistance? Isn't that a tax on the local population to cover their part?

 

[gardentiger]

Are you in favor of the upcoming proposal for a minimum tax including unrealized gains on Americans with more than $100m in net worth? Do you favor taxing unrealized gains of people who have stock holdings in major companies or companies they own? If so, why?

Just trying to understand why this would be supported. It could have so many potential negative effects on the economy and we're already dealing with taxation issues as 57% of Americans paid no income tax last year. Yes, that's largely due to Covid but it's still a major concern. The pre-pandemic percentage of 44% is still alarmingly high.

The better q is if you are for taxes on unrealized gains will the government pay you for losses in subsequent years if you have 100m+? I mean WTF?

 

[gardentiger]

There are obviously some issues with the current tax/welfare system. No one should ever be motivated to not do better for themselves. The fact that we dont make any progress on this ever is absolute insanity.

Just a side note - there are taxes (those based on consumption; sales tax, gas tax, etc) that lower income individuals pay a disproportionately higher percentage of their income than those who make more. That fact seems to be frequently glossed over.

No doubt, everyone should pay their fair share. And taxing unrealized gains just isn’t a realistic tactic. The unintended consequences are just too great. I also don’t think increasing the capital gains rate will have the benefits Dems think they’ll see.

But we need to generate tax revenue somewhere. We can cut spending sure, but that doesn’t even begin to fix the problem. McDonalds can continue to decrease the size of their burgers to cut costs but eventually they just have to increase prices.

The Trump era tax increase under the Secure act essentially did that with investments sheltered in retirement accounts. Where before someone could stretch an inherited IRAs income over a lifetime, they now have 10 years. This cannot be understated as we enter the biggest wealth transfer in our country’s history (boomer to millennial).

Getting rid of loopholes is a great starting point IMO. Seems to me the first most logical step would be to put some common sense limitations on step up in basis. There is a tremendous amount of earnings never taxed because of this advantage the vast majority of this country will never experience in any real sense.

I believe that inflation is mostly a tax on the poor and middle class as they have to buy things like rent, groceries and fuel. Excess printing if money causes this and higher prices are a necessary result. Not only is it a bad idea but I believe it is IMMORAL. Evil leaders/elites do this to their citizens.

 

[anon_5e8aassgcbjz1]

There are obviously some issues with the current tax/welfare system. No one should ever be motivated to not do better for themselves. The fact that we dont make any progress on this ever is absolute insanity.

Just a side note - there are taxes (those based on consumption; sales tax, gas tax, etc) that lower income individuals pay a disproportionately higher percentage of their income than those who make more. That fact seems to be frequently glossed over.

No doubt, everyone should pay their fair share. And taxing unrealized gains just isn’t a realistic tactic. The unintended consequences are just too great. I also don’t think increasing the capital gains rate will have the benefits Dems think they’ll see.

But we need to generate tax revenue somewhere. We can cut spending sure, but that doesn’t even begin to fix the problem. McDonalds can continue to decrease the size of their burgers to cut costs but eventually they just have to increase prices.

The Trump era tax increase under the Secure act essentially did that with investments sheltered in retirement accounts. Where before someone could stretch an inherited IRAs income over a lifetime, they now have 10 years. This cannot be understated as we enter the biggest wealth transfer in our country’s history (boomer to millennial).

Getting rid of loopholes is a great starting point IMO. Seems to me the first most logical step would be to put some common sense limitations on step up in basis. There is a tremendous amount of earnings never taxed because of this advantage the vast majority of this country will never experience in any real sense.

Have to do something about entitlement spending. That's what's really killing the budget.

 

[CoffeeIsForClosers]

Have to do something about entitlement spending. That's what's really killing the budget.

Agreed….as long as we equally cut the entitlement tax loopholes 😉

 

[CoffeeIsForClosers]

I believe that inflation is mostly a tax on the poor and middle class as they have to buy things like rent, groceries and fuel. Excess printing if money causes this and higher prices are a necessary result. Not only is it a bad idea but I believe it is IMMORAL. Evil leaders/elites do this to their citizens.

Printing isn’t the only thing that causes inflation, but I don’t disagree with that assertion.

 

[Willence]

Inflation is pretty simple. It's too much money following too few goods. Printing more money and increasing government spending and all this other stuff they're talking about will do nothing to help inflation. Very few people in the government understand anything at all about economics it seems. Plus what's truly sad is when the Secretary of the Treasury who was the previous head of the Fed as her head up her ass as well.

 

[firegiver]

That's not a fair representation but I would assume you meant it that way to try and support the narrative. The top 1% earn about 21% of the total income and account for 38.5% of the total taxes paid. That is more than enough. I would argue it is too much. We always reference how much they control but consider what they have done and how many people they employ:

Jeff Bezos - Amazon – 1,608,000 employees

Elon Musk - Tesla – 99,290 employees

Mark Zuckerberg - Facebook – 71,970 employees

Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer - Microsoft – 181,000 employees

Larry Page and Sergey Brin – Google – 135,000 employees

Larry Ellison – Oracle – 132,000 employees

Warren Buffet – Berkshire Hathaway – 389,000 employees

Michael Bloomberg – Bloomberg - 16,000 employees

Jim, Alice and Rob Walton – Walmart – 2,300,000 employees

Phil Knight – Nike – 74,000 employees

Koch Family – Koch Industries – 31,535 employees

Michael Dell – Dell Computers - 158,000 employees

Consider how many more millions of people are employed providing supplies, parts, office services, food for employees, software designers, etc. because of these companies. You could go on and one with the enormous impact the risks they took have had on American society and the wealth of this nation. The taxes and wealth controlled by these people is just a fraction of the reality created by the companies they started or run. It's amazing to me how we've gotten to where we demonize these people as if they control some outsized share of America's wealth. Look what they have done???? People who took extraordinary risks with great ideas and they have benefited tremendously while providing so much opportunity for others. That's not a bad thing. The people that don't understand this are just out for power over others or just plain stupid.

I may have been hyperbolic on the numbers but your narrative is crap and deaf to the masses of people actually.

The Fed - Distribution: Distribution of Household Wealth in the U.S. since 1989

The Federal Reserve Board of Governors in Washington DC.

www.federalreserve.gov

Consider that the top 50% have sucked ALL the wealth/labor out of the bottom 50% and created the largest wealth gap in history. They created shit jobs that pay shit. College costs a fortune and the reason you can't find someone to mow your lawn Todd is because it aint worth the time of day.

What risks did hedge fund managers make when they gambled on CDs and mortgage backed securities? Apparently nothing because we bail them out if they make mistakes. They might have to take the walk of shame from Goldman Sachs to Wells Fargo but don't feed me this line that 'oh they risked it all' like we are talking about the 1% as if they are the local HVAC company sponsoring the little league. Give us all a break. Bezos , the sleazy banks inventing money on risk securities... and the rest of the billionaire club is who we need to focus on as they have hyper gamed capitalism and are going to start a damn class war if we aren't careful.

 

[Willence]

I may have been hyperbolic on the numbers but your narrative is crap and deaf to the masses of people actually.

The Fed - Distribution: Distribution of Household Wealth in the U.S. since 1989

The Federal Reserve Board of Governors in Washington DC.

www.federalreserve.gov

Consider that the top 50% have sucked ALL the wealth/labor out of the bottom 50% and created the largest wealth gap in history. They created shit jobs that pay shit. College costs a fortune and the reason you can't find someone to mow your lawn Todd is because it aint worth the time of day.

What risks did hedge fund managers make when they gambled on CDs and mortgage backed securities? Apparently nothing because we bail them out if they make mistakes. They might have to take the walk of shame from Goldman Sachs to Wells Fargo but don't feed me this line that 'oh they risked it all' like we are talking about the 1% as if they are the local HVAC company sponsoring the little league. Give us all a break. Bezos , the sleazy banks inventing money on risk securities... and the rest of the billionaire club is who we need to focus on as they have hyper gamed capitalism and are going to start a damn class war if we aren't careful.

Have you considered the possibility that maybe government programs have sucked the wealth out of the bottom 50% more than anything else? Over time, everywhere around the world that is proven to be the case. Have you also considered that our lack of education about what capitalism is and how our government should function has caused us to elect the same people over and over again you continue to divide us in victimize us because of our own ignorance? My issue with your hypothesis is you want the dumbest people in the room (politicians) to fix the problem caused by the smartest people in the room and that's never going to work.

Not to mention for 25 years I have seen what people make every day because it's what I do for a living. I know your hypothesis is completely wrong. Just did a loan for a guy who is going to work at Amazon in SC and they are starting him at $130k per year. He's not at the executive level.

 

[firegiver]

I mean like

Of Jeff Bezos' 1.6 million employees how many are on government assistance? Isn't that a tax on the local population to cover their part?

This is really the game where people on the greed is good bandwagon get dunked on. The billionaires you idolize are the ones creating bad paying jobs that put people on government assitance. Just do the research and understand the capitalist's ecosystem isn't solved by well just pull yourself up by the bootstraps. In just 20 years the wealth gap has skyrocketed. This hasn't been the country that Boomers or GenXers grew up and joined the work force ... its changed dramatically. Being tonedeaf to this is going to cause craziness.
You'll see an uptick in unionization for sure. Honestly, good for those that do it because its their right and if they don't they will get exploited.

 

[firegiver]

Have you considered the possibility that maybe government programs have sucked the wealth out of the bottom 50% more than anything else? Over time, everywhere around the world that is proven to be the case. Have you also considered that our lack of education about what capitalism is and how our government should function has caused us to elect the same people over and over again you continue to divide us in victimize us because of our own ignorance? My issue with your hypothesis is you want the dumbest people in the room (politicians) to fix the problem caused by the smartest people in the room and that's never going to work.

What? the hell you talking about?

Look you distrust the guberment. But what you really will hate is when people unionize and start demanding better pay.

However, did you consider that the government is controlled by the rich and that you are talking crap about a government that the corporations want for American citizens? Maybe the ultra rich get it both ways, they get to take advantage of all the infrastructure that I as a tax payer provide, and my skills and labour that I spent years of time developing, so that they can turn a profit. At the same time they can pay me as little as possible, maybe so much that I need food stamps to make ends meet. But they ALLOW this to occur because it makes sense for their bottom line.. Almost like this society is exactly what you get when unfettered coporate greed is allowed to exist.

But hey lets downsize the government and let the corporations do wha t they want! Maybe they will build us better schools and infrastructure.... because thats profitable?

 

[scotchtiger]

Sensing some bitterness ITT.

 

[jschneid30]

Apparently not a lot of liberal TI members eh!

They’re in hiding

 

[Mac Tiger]

And that's the million dollar question. I truly don't know the answer. This is where my liberal leanings flip to the right, I really hate the way our tax code is designed. I wish every American paid something in taxes. I am dueal income with no kids, my wife and I pay a shit ton in taxes. Generally I'm fine with it, but I do have a problem with so many people paying nothing and even getting money back.

I feel like our current system basically subsidizes companies paying living wages. Company pays $10 an hour,no worries, my taxes will offset that difference in the form of welfare benefits.

I don't know a fair system, but I don't like demonizing people who create jobs. I don't want to penalize people who had the guts to step-out, take the risk, work their ass off and create businesses that add jobs and services to the US.

Great response and one I can respect. Every American should pay taxes, even if it's $5. If everyone is allowed to vote, then everyone should have skin in the game. I'm a flat tax, remove the loopholes, simplify the code guy.

 

[yoshi121374]

Great response and one I can respect. Every American should pay taxes, even if it's $5. If everyone is allowed to vote, then everyone should have skin in the game. I'm a flat tax, remove the loopholes, simplify the code guy.

The only issue with the flat tax is that it is a consumption tax and as mentioned above ,a consumption tax will lead to low income paying a larger percentage of their income in taxes than someone more wealthy. It also can have a negative growth effect on the economy since it de-inxentivizes spending.

I am completely open to anything that simplifies and makes it as fair as possible.

 

[Mac Tiger]

The only issue with the flat tax is that it is a consumption tax and as mentioned above ,a consumption tax will lead to low income paying a larger percentage of their income in taxes than someone more wealthy. It also can have a negative growth effect on the economy since it de-inxentivizes spending.

I am completely open to anything that simplifies and makes it as fair as possible.

You may have to help me, if everyone is paying the same percentage of their income in taxes, how does that affect low income persons more? If there is a 15% rate for businesses and corporations and 10% rate for individuals, how does that de-incentivize spending? Not sarcastic at all, really need help understanding.

 

[yoshi121374]

You may have to help me, if everyone is paying the same percentage of their income in taxes, how does that affect low income persons more? If there is a 15% rate for businesses and corporations and 10% rate for individuals, how does that de-incentivize spending? Not sarcastic at all, really need help understanding.

It is a larger impact on overall income. 10% of $40k is a much bigger impact on your daily life and budget than 10% of $400k. You miss it much more if you have less to begin with.

 

[Mac Tiger]

It is a larger impact on overall income. 10% of $40k is a much bigger impact on your daily life and budget than 10% of $400k. You miss it much more if you have less to begin with.

I get that. Thanks