I think I saw it mentioned on CNN when it he announced the tariff. It was whatever news outlet was on the TV in the Atlanta Airport while I was awaiting my connection.
Someone help me out with the freak out over the steel/aluminum deal?
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I think I saw it mentioned on CNN when it he announced the tariff. It was whatever news outlet was on the TV in the Atlanta Airport while I was awaiting my connection.
For sure. @Paul Strelow demands high prices for his premium content .
Well, as you all know, I hate Trump and always have.
That being said, I'm not sure that this is a bad idea on his part. He's 100% right that the US has allowed itself to be hosed on trade deals for a LONG time. Both enemies and allies make out like bandits against us I'm willing to pay a bit more for products when my money is going into American worker's pockets and not countries/companies that pay their workers a buck a day.
While yes, the American consumer expects a reasonable price on finished goods (which speaks in favor of cheap foreign imports) America is a HUGE market for those same countries to lose. So there is a balance here between serving the consumer and protecting our industrial base. I'm not sure where that balance is, but hopefully Trump actually has a PLAN, before he acts.
That being said, I'm not sure that this is a bad idea on his part. He's 100% right that the US has allowed itself to be hosed on trade deals for a LONG time. Both enemies and allies make out like bandits against us I'm willing to pay a bit more for products when my money is going into American worker's pockets and not countries/companies that pay their workers a buck a day.
While yes, the American consumer expects a reasonable price on finished goods (which speaks in favor of cheap foreign imports) America is a HUGE market for those same countries to lose. So there is a balance here between serving the consumer and protecting our industrial base. I'm not sure where that balance is, but hopefully Trump actually has a PLAN, before he acts.
Yeah, I get it in a war situation but I don't think we are at war with the EU. I just think there has to be a better way.
In theory - part of the National Defense strategy is that you have to be prepared for an extended war. Being ready for WWIII is a great way to be sure it doesn't happen. Admittedly the chances of WWIII are pretty damn low but a nation has to be ready at some level - especially when that nation is the de facto "leader of the free world". Had the US not had the production capacity we had in WWII then Europe would basically be Germany.
More to the point - if our overseas suppliers were to be taken over by enemies (think WWII and how Germany took over almost all of Europe) we would be screwed. If we have some steel and aluminum production facilities, then we are in much better shape.
But understand - I am not using that as an excuse for the tariffs though. That is just why there is a National Security issue (supposedly).
In truth, what you really need is some capacity that you can scale up quickly if needed.
This is a better approach. We will never approach the labor rates in China or developing nations. But there are other areas that could be worked. Figure out why you aren't competitive and find a way to get there.
That is what the Free Market is supposed to be about.
In my opinion, most Americans are still not used to a president that is adept at negotiation tactics. Most Americans, IMO, are conditioned by Obama to believe that he's going to do what he says. In negotiations that can be good and bad.
Trump, again this is my opinion, has no intention of starting a "trade war"(I hate when people use that term). We currently run about a $800 BILLION dollar trade deficit - AND we give many of the countries with whom we have a trade deficit foreign aid. It's a double whammy.
I think Trump is a good business man who recognizes that with some pressure and good negotiations, he can recoup BILLIONS from that trade deficit and/or reduce aid to some of those countries without starting a trade war.
Why? Because most of the countries that have VERY advantageous deals know it, and they understand they have room to give in order to maintain a good relationship with the US. They certainly want to avoid a trade war as well.
For example, I caught a podcast of an interview with the leader of the Norway(maybe it was Sweden) from yesterday I believe after a meeting with Trump regarding trade. His comment was that while his country was tied into whatever the US negotiated with the EU, he understood that the US felt the need for their trade deals to be "FAIR" for them AND their partners. I think this is exactly the attitude Trump is trying to foster among our trade partners by "saying" he's going to impose high tariffs on this or that, and then through the negotiation process he'll come back to a more reasonable stance that brings our trade deficit down substantially.
Anyway . . . that's what I think is going on.
Trump, again this is my opinion, has no intention of starting a "trade war"(I hate when people use that term). We currently run about a $800 BILLION dollar trade deficit - AND we give many of the countries with whom we have a trade deficit foreign aid. It's a double whammy.
I think Trump is a good business man who recognizes that with some pressure and good negotiations, he can recoup BILLIONS from that trade deficit and/or reduce aid to some of those countries without starting a trade war.
Why? Because most of the countries that have VERY advantageous deals know it, and they understand they have room to give in order to maintain a good relationship with the US. They certainly want to avoid a trade war as well.
For example, I caught a podcast of an interview with the leader of the Norway(maybe it was Sweden) from yesterday I believe after a meeting with Trump regarding trade. His comment was that while his country was tied into whatever the US negotiated with the EU, he understood that the US felt the need for their trade deals to be "FAIR" for them AND their partners. I think this is exactly the attitude Trump is trying to foster among our trade partners by "saying" he's going to impose high tariffs on this or that, and then through the negotiation process he'll come back to a more reasonable stance that brings our trade deficit down substantially.
Anyway . . . that's what I think is going on.
Which is exactly why they are doing it this way. What is the difference than a bailout to the steel industry. None on their end
I think so many people are just hoping that Trump has a plan and he isn't as wildly reactive as he seems. Truthfully, I feel people are giving him way to much credit for this being a strategy. Nothing in his business background supports his notion, and the actions of his staff and the massive turnover of his staff doesn't give me a lot of confidence.
Good stuff, man. I appreciate your insight. Hopefully, no one tries to invade Canada anytime soon
I kid, I kid
It's not just the media. Every time he opens his mouth or tweets, he strengthens my belief that he is not quite as smart as he thinks he is. He may be able to run a strong-arm business, but I'm not sure he understands or cares how anything affects anyone but him. I never pull against the president, but for the sake of our country and its citizens, I hope someone can talk sense into him on many issues.
I consider this the main indicator that this isn't grand strategy.
It certainly doesn't appear that the serious experts in his Cabinet don't want to have their professional reputation tied to some of this stuff.
Sometimes we need help from our own Governments. Other countries get that. We don’t seem to.
Back in the 80’s my family owned a business that catered to the Textile industry (NAFTA ended that) anyway, a lot of times we were not just in competition with foreign companies, such as Reiter (Swiss ), Trutzschler (Germany) Marzoli (Italy) but their Governments as well. We could compete against the individual company but not the Government. An example would be the Swiss Government would subsidize Reiter to sell their carding machine way under priced (Dumping) This would put everyone else (Not subsidized by a country) out of business. Then, after they stole the market they would raise priced above what everyone else had charged and have in effect a monopoly on those goods.
We (the Americans) couldn't compete because our beloved government could care less about us. As a matter of fact, they went out of their way to make it harder by adding in layers and layers of regulations!
It would be nice to actually have someone on our side for once. It’s obvious that the Democrats and the Republicans are not.
Back in the 80’s my family owned a business that catered to the Textile industry (NAFTA ended that) anyway, a lot of times we were not just in competition with foreign companies, such as Reiter (Swiss ), Trutzschler (Germany) Marzoli (Italy) but their Governments as well. We could compete against the individual company but not the Government. An example would be the Swiss Government would subsidize Reiter to sell their carding machine way under priced (Dumping) This would put everyone else (Not subsidized by a country) out of business. Then, after they stole the market they would raise priced above what everyone else had charged and have in effect a monopoly on those goods.
We (the Americans) couldn't compete because our beloved government could care less about us. As a matter of fact, they went out of their way to make it harder by adding in layers and layers of regulations!
It would be nice to actually have someone on our side for once. It’s obvious that the Democrats and the Republicans are not.
I say the same thing I posted earlier. I learned absolutely nothing from that. What kind of take do you expect a steel producer's CEO to have? Is this tariff a benefit to a steel manufacturer in the U.S.? Absolutely. Why wouldn't he be for it? But the whole truth is that the ripple effect of this on other industries, other products, and other workers in the US is a big net loss even though it may be a net gain for steel manufacturers like Norco, who by the way are already thriving and extremely profitable without these tariffs.
That whole interview all I heard from him was how horrible China was and how unfair their trade practices were and that we are sticking it back to them. China is bad, no doubt, but the problem is that this discussion on placing tariffs on steel does very little to impact China.
Below are the top steel exporters to the United States with their corresponding percentage of total U.S. steel imports:
1. Canada 16.7 percent
2. Brazil 13.2 percent
3. South Korea 9.7 percent
4. Mexico 9.4 percent
5. Russia 8.1 percent
6. Turkey 5.6 percent
7. Japan 4.9 percent
8. Germany 3.7 percent
9. Taiwan 3.2 percent
10. China 2.9 percent
11. India 2.4 percent
China is producing a whopping 2.9% of the steel exported to the US! Big freaking deal. How is this sticking it to them?
The sad thing is that we already know what this is going to do to the economy because it has happened before. George Bush announced a 3 year tariff on steel in 2002 to send a similar message. He quickly backed off and canceled it in 2003 because it backfired so badly. The ripple effect and net loss of jobs across the country were significant. One study showed that America had a net loss of 200,000 jobs in non-steel producing industries directly because of the ripple effect of those steel tariffs. What was even more eye opening is that during the limited time the tariff was in effect the steel industry workforce even dropped by 13,000 workers. We aren't talking about theoretical economic applications here. We are talking about proven facts based on history.
Again, this whole tariff issue is all about optics for Trump's base. They feel good because he is placing a tariff on steel and are pumping their chest saying, "Hell yeah! MAGA!!!! Take that China!". They have no clue about the ripple effect of this and how it impacts our economy as a whole.
Automakers are raping the public as it is.
$70k for a pickup and they are using oversees cheap material.
I think Ford and Chevy are at the threshold of eliminating the working man with their prices.
$70k for a pickup and they are using oversees cheap material.
I think Ford and Chevy are at the threshold of eliminating the working man with their prices.
Kind of hard to have 'a government that governs the least governs the best' and one that protects its manufacturers. Either we believe in capitalism with all of its warts or we don't. If government starts down the path of protecting one industry, it by default impacts others. One screams, one praises.
This is not primarily an economics move but a national security issue. Steel and aluminum tariffs are needed to ensure that those industries in America remain viable. Without them, foreign suppliers will corner the market here, forcing those US companies out of business, which would be disastrous for us if a major war were to break out. For better or worse, it is probably a necessary evil.
That’s the problem, if it was a fair trading field I would put us up against anyone, but it’s not. And tariffs have a way of stopping others countries from those practices. It would be nice if we lived in a utopia but we don’t.
No doubt when Trump was building all his casinos and hotels I'm sure he used nothing but higher priced US steel and other building products because he was all about America first and not his bottom line.
Could this actually be a rent extraction move? I don’t get any of this otherwise.
Fair point, but that model SHOULD be unsustainable for those governments. Especially for smaller countries.
The first step should be to pare down the regulations to the ones that actually matter.
Libtards debating an issue that Trump understands better than any of you...so pointless.
Some people really do struggle with Trump taking America to new heights. Sad.
Giant pity party in here. Trump is going to roll over all of you in his 18-wheeler while wearing a bright red MAGA hat!
Some people really do struggle with Trump taking America to new heights. Sad.
Giant pity party in here. Trump is going to roll over all of you in his 18-wheeler while wearing a bright red MAGA hat!
I don't understand where the comments about how smart Trump is come from. What in his business career makes you think that? He has failed a ridiculous amount of times and if he wasn't born into money he wouldn't have any money based on his business acumen. What he is great at is self promotion and agrandisment. Just taking politics out of it, the myth of Donald Trump the genius is just plain stupid.
I priced some 1.625" .120 wall DOM last night and then went back and looked at an invoice from early December for the same number of sticks........it's up 16.25% already. Hot rolled is already approaching chromoly prices per pound. Heard from some major metal distributors yesterday that US producers are already slowing production to decrease supply and further drive prices up. Doesn't seem good for manufacturing jobs.
Yeah, I didn't even mention that the US mills only run 1/2 - 3/4 of capacity. You would think they would increase capacity, given that demand would go through the roof. So that the metal working industry wouldn't suffer so much. However, greed rules the day, and they will instead ramp down production (or hold steady) and spike prices. I get the basic supply and demand from the mill perspective, but doesn't mean I like it. Especially since I'm on the losing end (along with millions of other workers).
So you believe in US government intervention? I agree it is not necessarily fair, but we only have a choice as to US policy. Are we laissez-faire or are we interventionists? Can't be both. If we choose laissez-faire, individual industries fend for themselves and we seek pure economic efficiency and recognize that there will be winners and losers. If we choose intervention/tariffs, we accept higher cost and inefficiency for all in search of some benefit for a select few, in effect government chooses the winners.
The rest of the world chooses its own course and always will.
You actually managed to post something of so little value in regards to the conversation that I find it impressive.
Domestic producers will only gain at the expense of domestic consumers. The economy will experience dead weight loss as a whole. The government will benefit by generating some tariff (tax) revenue.
It gets me the amount of conservatives behind this deal - I had faith that they didn’t believe in government intervention. The markets will fix themselves. This is a poor deal
It gets me the amount of conservatives behind this deal - I had faith that they didn’t believe in government intervention. The markets will fix themselves. This is a poor deal
The world price for steel will still be below the price of domestic steel. The crazy thing is domestic steel companies have been the first to raise their prices. They send out new pricing sheets weeks ago and they are already affecting the final consumers
But this hurts American consumers who the price will be passed along to (assuming they stay in business)
^^ this. Net exports is only a portion of the national budget.
Measuring RGDP is a good place to start but this metric is a bit outdated
The argument of national defense is that we need steel production in times of war. However the same argument can be made for many industries, like food (might be our most powerful weapon)
Im referencing the Reuters article I linked on page 1. Zero chance they are the only ones.
Seems relevant
"The European Union has responded to Donald Trump’s threat of a trade war by warning that it will retaliate with tariffs on a range of US imports including peanut butter, cranberries and orange juice.
Reacting to the threat from the US president of 25% tariffs on steel imports and 10% on aluminum, European commissioner for trade Cecilia Malmström said on Wednesday the EU was finalizing its own list of American exports that could face sanctions, including steel, industrial and agricultural products."
"The European Union has responded to Donald Trump’s threat of a trade war by warning that it will retaliate with tariffs on a range of US imports including peanut butter, cranberries and orange juice.
Reacting to the threat from the US president of 25% tariffs on steel imports and 10% on aluminum, European commissioner for trade Cecilia Malmström said on Wednesday the EU was finalizing its own list of American exports that could face sanctions, including steel, industrial and agricultural products."
