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Who should we blame for this...

So whose fault is it?

  • Paul Ryan

    Votes: 13 33.3%
  • Obama

    Votes: 13 33.3%
  • Democrats

    Votes: 11 28.2%
  • Tea Party (Freedom caucus) Republicans

    Votes: 11 28.2%

  • Total voters
    39

hopefultiger13

The Jack Dunlap Club
Gold Member
Aug 20, 2008
10,127
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Pocatello, ID
So we KNOW that failure to replace the Affordable Care Act (Obama Care) couldn't be Trump's fault. They do call him "The Closer" after all. And getting a bill passed through Congress with your party in control of both houses and everyone running on "repeal and replace" can be anything but easy. But Trump's way of doing things is that if something goes wrong, he takes full blame and responsibility, so we won't hear who's fault this REALLY is. So who do you blame for this? Note that you can blame more than one choice... hell choose them all!!
 
Both parties who allow insurance and drug companies to rape us and watch people die.

The American people for being complicit.

As for immediate blame, hard to campaign on repealing something without having a better/reasonable alternative.
 
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The great thing about Obamacare is that it's the first step towards a more inclusive system. Even though conservatives may hate the fact that everyone can have access to healthcare, that's the way it's going to be. So now you have more citizens with access, and if you take that away, you lose their vote. So like it or not, it would be unwise for Trump and the conservatives to try to pull back Obamacare. Single payer is coming, and I can't wait
 
The great thing about Obamacare is that it's the first step towards a more inclusive system. Even though conservatives may hate the fact that everyone can have access to healthcare, that's the way it's going to be. So now you have more citizens with access, and if you take that away, you lose their vote. So like it or not, it would be unwise for Trump and the conservatives to try to pull back Obamacare. Single payer is coming, and I can't wait
Access is great mandates suck. I have no problem with everyone having access to a healthcare plan. I have a huge issue with government telling people they have to have a healthcare plan. I also have a problem with government telling people which plans they have to obtain. I wish government would just get the hell out of the way and let the market decide.
 
The great thing about Obamacare is that it's the first step towards a more inclusive system. Even though conservatives may hate the fact that everyone can have access to healthcare, that's the way it's going to be. So now you have more citizens with access, and if you take that away, you lose their vote. So like it or not, it would be unwise for Trump and the conservatives to try to pull back Obamacare. Single payer is coming, and I can't wait


HERP DERP
 
Access is great mandates suck. I have no problem with everyone having access to a healthcare plan. I have a huge issue with government telling people they have to have a healthcare plan. I also have a problem with government telling people which plans they have to obtain. I wish government would just get the hell out of the way and let the market decide.
Then a whole lot of people wouldn't be able to afford it.
 
So we KNOW that failure to replace the Affordable Care Act (Obama Care) couldn't be Trump's fault. They do call him "The Closer" after all. And getting a bill passed through Congress with your party in control of both houses and everyone running on "repeal and replace" can be anything but easy. But Trump's way of doing things is that if something goes wrong, he takes full blame and responsibility, so we won't hear who's fault this REALLY is. So who do you blame for this? Note that you can blame more than one choice... hell choose them all!!
I hate to say this but if the democrats will just stay out of the way, the Republican party will self destruct! When will the two parties realize that the majority of American are closer to the middle than to the extremes. Yet, the extremes of the two parties draw most of the attention and are doing the most damage. We need that Independent Party! Let's step up!
 
I hate to say this but if the democrats will just stay out of the way, the Republican party will self destruct! When will the two parties realize that the majority of American are closer to the middle than to the extremes. Yet, the extremes of the two parties draw most of the attention and are doing the most damage. We need that Independent Party! Let's step up!

thats pretty much what happened with the AHCA.
 
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The great thing about Obamacare is that it's the first step towards a more inclusive system. Even though conservatives may hate the fact that everyone can have access to healthcare, that's the way it's going to be. So now you have more citizens with access, and if you take that away, you lose their vote. So like it or not, it would be unwise for Trump and the conservatives to try to pull back Obamacare. Single payer is coming, and I can't wait

Spot on.
 
Partisanship. The AHA doesn't need to be repealed, it needs to be fixed. And that means both sides need to make concessions and work together.

Also, that should have happened seven years ago as well.

many democratic members of congress, after the presidential election, came out and said something like "we are willing to work with republicans and the trump administration to fix the ACA". Republicans said F you, we have the votes to repeal it. and then they publicly and miserably failed.
 
this is a pretty impressive win for grassroots activism and the american people.

almost NOBODY liked the AHCA. 17% of the country wanted to see it enacted. And the 50+ percent that didnt absolutely bombarded congressional offices and convinced members that this is not a good bill. Thats why you see republican moderates refusing to draw-down the medicaid expansion, or cut essential health benefits. its a direct result of citizen action. pretty amazing if you ask me.
 
this poll is real life in the deep south. Its literally unbelievable that somehow republicans (and those ITT) are actually blaming democrats for this. The notion that, because the republican party couldnt agree on a replacement package, its the democrats fault is awfully stupid.

My favorite line from yesterday "now democrats own obamacare". Since apparently, drafting and passing the bill 7 years ago does not constitute "ownership".
 
and finally... dems last night...

giphy.gif
 
The great thing about Obamacare is that it's the first step towards a more inclusive system. Even though conservatives may hate the fact that everyone can have access to healthcare, that's the way it's going to be. So now you have more citizens with access, and if you take that away, you lose their vote. So like it or not, it would be unwise for Trump and the conservatives to try to pull back Obamacare. Single payer is coming, and I can't wait

Got damn somebody paid attention in poly sci last semester
 
The great thing about Obamacare is that it's the first step towards a more inclusive system. Even though conservatives may hate the fact that everyone can have access to healthcare, that's the way it's going to be. So now you have more citizens with access, and if you take that away, you lose their vote. So like it or not, it would be unwise for Trump and the conservatives to try to pull back Obamacare. Single payer is coming, and I can't wait
Undoubtably you must be one of the bloodsuckers that want socialism. Unbelievable....!!!!!! And no conservative won't lose their vote dependents don't vote Republican they vote Democrat.
 
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The great thing about Obamacare is that it's the first step towards a more inclusive system. Even though conservatives may hate the fact that everyone can have access to healthcare, that's the way it's going to be. So now you have more citizens with access, and if you take that away, you lose their vote. So like it or not, it would be unwise for Trump and the conservatives to try to pull back Obamacare. Single payer is coming, and I can't wait

What a simplistic view.
 
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The great thing about Obamacare is that it's the first step towards a more inclusive system. Even though conservatives may hate the fact that everyone can have access to healthcare, that's the way it's going to be. So now you have more citizens with access, and if you take that away, you lose their vote. So like it or not, it would be unwise for Trump and the conservatives to try to pull back Obamacare. Single payer is coming, and I can't wait

majority of americans, including 41% of republicans want single-payer.
 
The great thing about Obamacare is that it's the first step towards a more inclusive system. Even though conservatives may hate the fact that everyone can have access to healthcare, that's the way it's going to be. So now you have more citizens with access, and if you take that away, you lose their vote. So like it or not, it would be unwise for Trump and the conservatives to try to pull back Obamacare. Single payer is coming, and I can't wait

majority of americans, including 41% of republicans want single-payer.
Bullshit made up #'s by the make believe press. Sure that's why liberals have lost a thousand elective seats across this land in the last 8 years because voters like what you are doing. Keep doing what you're doing we love it.
 
Bullshit made up #'s by the make believe press. Sure that's why liberals have lost a thousand elective seats across this land in the last 8 years because voters like what you are doing. Keep doing what you're doing we love it.

im glad this guy is so willing to fly his "im a gigantic idiot devoid of critical thought" flag.
 
I honestly feel bad for the middle class and young working Americans
 
So we KNOW that failure to replace the Affordable Care Act (Obama Care) couldn't be Trump's fault. They do call him "The Closer" after all. And getting a bill passed through Congress with your party in control of both houses and everyone running on "repeal and replace" can be anything but easy. But Trump's way of doing things is that if something goes wrong, he takes full blame and responsibility, so we won't hear who's fault this REALLY is. So who do you blame for this? Note that you can blame more than one choice... hell choose them all!!
Agreed and what's important to know this change had to be repealed in layers or the bill would face filibuster by the Dems. The far right in Republican Party wanted it repealed in one fail swoop, however that pipe dream wasn't a reality because of the aforementioned filibuster threat. So until these worthless POS congressional jokes realize they have to work together then we're stuck with the worst healthcare system in the Western World and it's ever increasing debt impact on our nation!
 
Access is great mandates suck. I have no problem with everyone having access to a healthcare plan. I have a huge issue with government telling people they have to have a healthcare plan. I also have a problem with government telling people which plans they have to obtain. I wish government would just get the hell out of the way and let the market decide.
The problem in all of this is that we have companies whose only goal is profit being the head decision makers in healthcare. We shouldn't have "plans" or any of this BS. You pay your monthly taxes, and healthcare is included. It's not that hard.

Lol at letting "the market" decide healthcare. Sounds like a great idea to let purely profit driven incentive decide how people obtain medicine and other aspects of healthcare.
Got damn somebody paid attention in poly sci last semester
Never taken that class, I'm just smarter than half this board thinks. The first clue to my intelligence was the fact that I lean left and that I don't hesitate to criticize the way the US does things.
Undoubtably you must be one of the bloodsuckers that want socialism. Unbelievable....!!!!!! And no conservative won't lose their vote dependents don't vote Republican they vote Democrat.
It's not bloodsucking if you pay into the system with your taxes. Am I a bloodsucker for driving on public roads and going to public schools? We pay for it every year, it's there to be used.
What a simplistic view.
I have no rebuttal to this, you simply dissected my point and have destroyed everything I stand for.
 
Agreed and what's important to know this change had to be repealed in layers or the bill would face filibuster by the Dems. The far right in Republican Party wanted it repealed in one fail swoop, however that pipe dream wasn't a reality because of the aforementioned filibuster threat. So until these worthless POS congressional jokes realize they have to work together then we're stuck with the worst healthcare system in the Western World and it's ever increasing debt impact on our nation!

he was being sarcastic (its pretty obvious), and there is no filibuster in the US house where ACA Repeal needs to originate. Republicans controlled the floor schedule, the vote schedule, and have a majority, not being able to pass a bill that every member of your caucus ran on is embarrassing. ryan should lose his speakership.
 
Bullshit made up #'s by the make believe press. Sure that's why liberals have lost a thousand elective seats across this land in the last 8 years because voters like what you are doing. Keep doing what you're doing we love it.

im glad this guy is so willing to fly his "im a gigantic idiot devoid of critical thought" flag.
Typical liberal run out of ideas and start name calling I guess I hit a nerve with that 1000 lost seats. Isn't there a protest somewhere you need to be a part of don't bother me.
 
The problem in all of this is that we have companies whose only goal is profit being the head decision makers in healthcare. We shouldn't have "plans" or any of this BS. You pay your monthly taxes, and healthcare is included. It's not that hard.

Lol at letting "the market" decide healthcare. Sounds like a great idea to let purely profit driven incentive decide how people obtain medicine and other aspects of healthcare.

Never taken that class, I'm just smarter than half this board thinks. The first clue to my intelligence was the fact that I lean left and that I don't hesitate to criticize the way the US does things.

It's not bloodsucking if you pay into the system with your taxes. Am I a bloodsucker for driving on public roads and going to public schools? We pay for it every year, it's there to be used.

I have no rebuttal to this, you simply dissected my point and have destroyed everything I stand for.

It's a sports board and I don't come here to discuss politics, so I won't dissect your viewpoint. Don't care to. But it is simplistic, the way you parse this issue. Take that for what it's worth (which shouldn't be much since I'm an anonymous member of a Clemson football board).
 
Agreed and what's important to know this change had to be repealed in layers or the bill would face filibuster by the Dems. The far right in Republican Party wanted it repealed in one fail swoop, however that pipe dream wasn't a reality because of the aforementioned filibuster threat. So until these worthless POS congressional jokes realize they have to work together then we're stuck with the worst healthcare system in the Western World and it's ever increasing debt impact on our nation!
Clear and pretty straight forward response. I especially like & agree with the "worthless POS congressional jokes" part. Really something with all can agree on, right?
 
The problem in all of this is that we have companies whose only goal is profit being the head decision makers in healthcare. We shouldn't have "plans" or any of this BS. You pay your monthly taxes, and healthcare is included. It's not that hard.

Lol at letting "the market" decide healthcare. Sounds like a great idea to let purely profit driven incentive decide how people obtain medicine and other aspects of healthcare.

Never taken that class, I'm just smarter than half this board thinks. The first clue to my intelligence was the fact that I lean left and that I don't hesitate to criticize the way the US does things.

It's not bloodsucking if you pay into the system with your taxes. Am I a bloodsucker for driving on public roads and going to public schools? We pay for it every year, it's there to be used.

I have no rebuttal to this, you simply dissected my point and have destroyed everything I stand for.


"Lean" left

Lol
 

I have no problem with making access easier. Any system that depends on Employment to gain access is a bad system. Most employees do not even realize that most Employer's heavily subsidize the offering to keep premiums as low as possible.

A hidden cost to Obamacare was the impact to employers. Employer plans were hit with coverage mandates, Govt fees (taxes) and penalties if your plans were too rich (Cadillac Plans).

Single Payer sounds wonderful, but supporters are either naive or have not thought it all the way through or simply don't care because it supports their political agenda:

1. I completely understand the concerns with pre-existing conditions, but at the same time you can't wait until something comes up to get insurance either. Otherwise, we would wait to get Car Insurance until after we wreck, or get Home Insurance after a fire, etc. It kind of defeats the purpose of "insurance" if you wait, hence the need for the mandates.

2. Any "savings" expected by eliminating the "for profit" insurance companies will be offset and then some by Government Waste, Fraud and poor Service. When was the last time you saw a large scale government program that was well run? And even if they do a decent job with something (i.e. military) they have to spend 3X as much to do it.

Look no further than our Vet Hospitals. While their are pockets of good services, overall I think both Democrats and Republicans both agree that they do not provide the level of service and care our Vets deserve and they definitely don't do it at a competitive price.

You can not use Medicare / Medicaid as a comparable model because most Doctors and Hospitals tolerate these programs and write off substantial losses. If all they have is Single Payer then costs will skyrocket or service will decline (most likely both).

3. The United States "for profit" model is the primary driver of medical and drug advances for the rest of the world. Socialized medicine in other countries have a chance for success because they simply control cost and services but rely on the US for most of the innovation.

What do you think will happen if Drug Companies and Medical Device makers no longer make huge amounts of profit? You will still have Government funded R&D, but practically zero incentive to achieve results.

We have made huge advances in medicine in the past 50 years in areas such as cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc. Move from a For Profit model to only government funded research and we will vastly slow rates of improvement. Even with profit, we are falling behind on with the effectiveness of Antibiotics.

Unfortunately, Republicans in their zeal to undue Obama's legacy, were simply trying to replace Obamacare with a plan that would be just as bad or worse. I am by no means an Obama fan nor Obamacare supporter, but it is already there. So why don't we do what is best for the country instead of one of the parties getting some political points? Let's take Obamacare and fix it:

1. Revise the "required" coverage plans mandated by the government.
2. Allow plans to be purchased across state lines.
3. We need Litigation/Tort reform.
4. We need some government funded "free clinics" but they need to have private contracts with a good audit and replace system (I would do it through State or even County Block Grants).
5. Eliminate the Cadillac Tax. Companies that provide better coverage should be commended, not them and their employees penalized.

I am sure there is much more that can be done but this post is long enough already......
 
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I have no problem with making access easier. Any system that depends on Employment to gain access is a bad system. Most employees do not even realize that most Employer's heavily subsidize the offering to keep premiums as low as possible.

A hidden cost to Obamacare was the impact to employers. Employer plans were hit with coverage mandates, Govt fees (taxes) and penalties if your plans were too rich (Cadillac Plans).

Single Payer sounds wonderful, but supporters are either naive or have not thought it all the way through or simply don't care because it supports their political agenda:

1. I completely understand the concerns with pre-existing conditions, but at the same time you can't wait until something comes up to get insurance either. Otherwise, we would wait to get Car Insurance until after we wreck, or get Home Insurance after a fire, etc. It kind of defeats the purpose of "insurance" if you wait, hence the need for the mandates.

2. Any "savings" expected by eliminating the "for profit" insurance companies will be offset and then some by Government Waste, Fraud and poor Service. When was the last time you saw a large scale government program that was well run? And even if they do a decent job with something (i.e. military) they have to spend 3X as much to do it.

Look no further than our Vet Hospitals. While their are pockets of good services, overall I think both Democrats and Republicans both agree that they do not provide the level of service and care our Vets deserve and they definitely don't do it at a competitive price.

You can not use Medicare / Medicaid as a comparable model because most Doctors and Hospitals tolerate these programs and write off substantial losses. If all they have is Single Payer then costs will skyrocket or service will decline (most likely both).

3. The United States "for profit" model is the primary driver of medical and drug advances for the rest of the world. Socialized medicine in other countries have a chance for success because they simply control cost and services but rely on the US for most of the innovation.

What do you think will happen if Drug Companies and Medical Device makers no longer make huge amounts of profit? You will still have Government funded R&D, but practically zero incentive to achieve results.

We have made huge advances in medicine in the past 50 years in areas such as cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc. Move from a For Profit model to only government funded research and we will vastly slow rate of improvements. Even with profit, we are falling behind on with the effectiveness of Antibiotics.

Unfortunately, Republicans in their zeal to undue Obama's legacy, were simply trying to replace Obamacare with a plan that would be just as bad or worse. I am by no means an Obama fan nor Obamacare supporter, but it is already there. So why don't we do what is best for the country instead of one of the parties getting some political points? Let's take Obamacare and fix it:

1. Revise the "required" coverage plans mandated by the government.
2. Allow plans to be purchased across state lines.
3. We need Litigation/Tort reform.
4. We need some government funded "free clinics" but they need to have private contracts with a good audit and replace system (I would do it through State or even County Block Grants).
5. Eliminate the Cadillac Tax. Companies that provide better coverage should be commended, not them and their employees penalized.

I am sure there is much more that can be done but this post is long enough already......

Good points as well - this is why there is no consensus on what to do.
 
I have no problem with making access easier. Any system that depends on Employment to gain access is a bad system. Most employees do not even realize that most Employer's heavily subsidize the offering to keep premiums as low as possible.

A hidden cost to Obamacare was the impact to employers. Employer plans were hit with coverage mandates, Govt fees (taxes) and penalties if your plans were too rich (Cadillac Plans).

Single Payer sounds wonderful, but supporters are either naive or have not thought it all the way through or simply don't care because it supports their political agenda:

1. I completely understand the concerns with pre-existing conditions, but at the same time you can't wait until something comes up to get insurance either. Otherwise, we would wait to get Car Insurance until after we wreck, or get Home Insurance after a fire, etc. It kind of defeats the purpose of "insurance" if you wait, hence the need for the mandates.

2. Any "savings" expected by eliminating the "for profit" insurance companies will be offset and then some by Government Waste, Fraud and poor Service. When was the last time you saw a large scale government program that was well run? And even if they do a decent job with something (i.e. military) they have to spend 3X as much to do it.

Look no further than our Vet Hospitals. While their are pockets of good services, overall I think both Democrats and Republicans both agree that they do not provide the level of service and care our Vets deserve and they definitely don't do it at a competitive price.

You can not use Medicare / Medicaid as a comparable model because most Doctors and Hospitals tolerate these programs and write off substantial losses. If all they have is Single Payer then costs will skyrocket or service will decline (most likely both).

3. The United States "for profit" model is the primary driver of medical and drug advances for the rest of the world. Socialized medicine in other countries have a chance for success because they simply control cost and services but rely on the US for most of the innovation.

What do you think will happen if Drug Companies and Medical Device makers no longer make huge amounts of profit? You will still have Government funded R&D, but practically zero incentive to achieve results.

We have made huge advances in medicine in the past 50 years in areas such as cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc. Move from a For Profit model to only government funded research and we will vastly slow rates of improvement. Even with profit, we are falling behind on with the effectiveness of Antibiotics.

Unfortunately, Republicans in their zeal to undue Obama's legacy, were simply trying to replace Obamacare with a plan that would be just as bad or worse. I am by no means an Obama fan nor Obamacare supporter, but it is already there. So why don't we do what is best for the country instead of one of the parties getting some political points? Let's take Obamacare and fix it:

1. Revise the "required" coverage plans mandated by the government.
2. Allow plans to be purchased across state lines.
3. We need Litigation/Tort reform.
4. We need some government funded "free clinics" but they need to have private contracts with a good audit and replace system (I would do it through State or even County Block Grants).
5. Eliminate the Cadillac Tax. Companies that provide better coverage should be commended, not them and their employees penalized.

I am sure there is much more that can be done but this post is long enough already......

Thank you for the well-thought out viewpoint, explained rationally. And, as a advocate of single-payer, I agree with a whole lot of what you've already said here. There are a couple of things that I want to comment on-

The pre-existing conditions, while commonly thought of as the user who waited until they got sick, fails to encompass the large number of people who acquired conditions as children and never had a real chance to pay into an insurance plan. There was a provision in AHCA to allow for 2 months of lapse; however, I would argue that one's ability to find a good healthcare plan with an employer in 2 months time (thinking, if they were fired) is not easy. I also hate to think that my own daughter, with T1D, may be tethered to a job/insurance she doesn't like much at all, because it's the only way she'll be able to afford the mortgage payment of medication to keep her alive.

Secondly, it's my understanding that tort reform was tried pretty extensively at the state level in Texas for 15 years now. And it's brought down costs by a mere fraction of a percent. People like the idea of eliminating fraud, but practically speaking, I'm not convinced it's any more than a trivial amount of saved.

Medical costs need to be separated out into what is insurance and what is simply taxable service. Insurance companies don't need to go away, but they don't need to be "insuring" people for things like proactive doctor visits. I think Germany has a good hybrid system, but I haven't researched it very much.

It's tempting to want to apply microeconomics to any situation and refer to supply and demand. But, healthcare isn't like a car. Yeah, you probably need a car, but you won't die without one and you won't be willing to spend your life savings to get one. The demand for health is elastic, so the economic rules are skewed.

I agree about the fear of stifling innovation. I don't know what the answer is. We're reaching a time where AI may eventually do much of our research for us, so maybe the answer is right around the corner.
 
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