Thoughts on this?

[dbjork6317]

Here’s body cam video. Its a dude getting shot so if you don’t want to see that then don’t watch.



So apparently the story is that a neighbor heard loud video games and thought there was some sort of domestic disturbance and called the cops. Cop knocks on the door, announces himself, guy opens the door with a gun in his hand, doesn’t seem to be pointing it at the cop, and cop just blasts him.

Genuinely curious what all the gun nuts think about this. If a representative of the state can shoot you simply for holding a gun in your hand, then do you actually have the “right to bear arms?” Would shootings like this happen if cops didn’t have to be so on edge that pretty much everyone they engage with could have a gun on them?

 

[adgjunior]

I’ve got a good feeling about this thread.

 

[BlueRidgedf]

Here’s body cam video. Its a dude getting shot so if you don’t want to see that then don’t watch.

View embedded media

So apparently the story is that a neighbor heard loud video games and thought there was some sort of domestic disturbance and called the cops. Cop knocks on the door, announces himself, guy opens the door with a gun in his hand, doesn’t seem to be pointing it at the cop, and cop just blasts him.

Genuinely curious what all the gun nuts think about this. If a representative of the state can shoot you simply for holding a gun in your hand, then do you actually have the “right to bear arms?” Would shootings like this happen if cops didn’t have to be so on edge that pretty much everyone they engage with could have a gun on them?

Well I would not go to the door knowing a cop is on the other side. I'm always amazed that the left hate cops and don't trust cops, but they think cops should be the only 1s who can have a gun.

 

[scotchtiger]

You have to be a world class moron to answer the door holding a gun after a sheriff announces himself. This probably fits more in a Darwin award category rather than gun control legislation.

 

[iceheart08]

Well I would not go to the door knowing a cop is on the other side. I'm always amazed that the left hate cops and don't trust cops, but they think cops should be the only 1s who can have a gun.

We, uhhhh, don't think that.

 

[WapPride]

We, uhhhh, don't think that.

Nah, see, wanting police reform to include better training and more accountability for their mistakes = hating cops.

 

[Cocks are Number 1]

If the person knocking on your door is telling you he/she is local law enforcement, don’t open the door with a gun in your hand. Don’t be stupid.

RIP

 

[Cocks are Number 1]

Nah, see, wanting police reform to include better training and more accountability for their mistakes = hating cops.

How eloquently you put that… so accurate.

 

[dbjork6317]

Well I would not go to the door knowing a cop is on the other side. I'm always amazed that the left hate cops and don't trust cops, but they think cops should be the only 1s who can have a gun.

You have to be a world class moron to answer the door holding a gun after a sheriff announces himself. This probably fits more in a Darwin award category rather than gun control legislation.

If the person knocking on your door is telling you he/she is local law enforcement, don’t open the door with a gun in your hand. Don’t be stupid.

RIP

If someone started pounding on my door right now and saying they were police, I’d be highly suspicious that they weren’t actually police. Isn’t it his right to protect himself? And why wouldn’t we be ok with him answering the door with a gun even if he did know it was a cop? Isn’t the point of the 2nd amendment that the population can defend themselves against the state if necessary?

 

[hopefultiger13]

How eloquently you put that… so accurate.

That's not correct at all. I'm guessing I'm more to the left than most on here. As a general rule, I trust the police. I know damn well that when shit goes sideways that's who you call and they come and bail your ass out. I've taught my kids the same thing.

Defunding the police is freaking stupid as shit. There are literally thousands of police officers going about their business every day being first responders and carrying out critical tasks for our society. Are there bad cops? Yes. Do cops make mistakes? Yes. The major difference here from most of us is that WHEN (not if) they mess up, people can die.

Defunding the FBI is freaking stupid as shit too... but many on the right that are ALL ABOUT calling the left stupid for defunding the police, call for the defunding of the FBI. There are literally hundreds of FBI agents going about their business every day as well and their tasks are just as critical as local cops.

In the case above, I'm not sure what policy is. But if you are a cop and you are responding to a call that says there's a violent situation going on... And you are met at the door with a guy with a gun. That's a bad situation all around. That cop had to make a spit second decision and lives were on the line (including his). Was his decision to kill the person wrong? Honestly, I don't know. If the person that answered the door was pointing the gun at the officer, the officer would be justified. The gun seemed to be pointed away and you'd like to see no one get shot, but it takes a split second to point a gun and fire. I still can't say the police officer was in the wrong there. But again, I don't know specific policy.

 

[flotiger]

You have to be a world class moron to answer the door holding a gun after a sheriff announces himself. This probably fits more in a Darwin award category rather than gun control legislation.

I didn't watch the video. But according to one article, they didn't announce themselves and they covered the door peep hole. Which was the reason he got his gun out. Whichever way it's found to have happened, I know from personal experience, law enforcement will cover peep hole, knock, and then not say anything when you ask who's there. Not that my personal experience is standard or means anything. At least I didn't get shot, but I see how I could have. Or not since I was white with gun in my hand.

 

[dbjork6317]

I didn't watch the video. But according to one article, they didn't announce themselves and they covered the door peep hole. Which was the reason he got his gun out. Whichever way it's found to have happened, I know from personal experience, law enforcement will cover peep hole, knock, and then not say anything when you ask who's there. Not that my personal experience is standard or means anything. At least I didn't get shot, but I see how I could have. Or not since I was white with gun in my hand.

In the video he does announce he’s from sheriff’s office but does stand away from the door so he can’t be seen in peep hole. I’m assuming they do that so as not to be shot through the door, which goes back to my point about cops having to constantly be on edge about encountering people with guns.

 

[dbjork6317]

That's not correct at all. I'm guessing I'm more to the left than most on here. As a general rule, I trust the police. I know damn well that when shit goes sideways that's who you call and they come and bail your ass out. I've taught my kids the same thing.

Defunding the police is freaking stupid as shit. There are literally thousands of police officers going about their business every day being first responders and carrying out critical tasks for our society. Are there bad cops? Yes. Do cops make mistakes? Yes. The major difference here from most of us is that WHEN (not if) they mess up, people can die.

Defunding the FBI is freaking stupid as shit too... but many on the right that are ALL ABOUT calling the left stupid for defunding the police, call for the defunding of the FBI. There are literally hundreds of FBI agents going about their business every day as well and their tasks are just as critical as local cops.

In the case above, I'm not sure what policy is. But if you are a cop and you are responding to a call that says there's a violent situation going on... And you are met at the door with a guy with a gun. That's a bad situation all around. That cop had to make a spit second decision and lives were on the line (including his). Was his decision to kill the person wrong? Honestly, I don't know. If the person that answered the door was pointing the gun at the officer, the officer would be justified. The gun seemed to be pointed away and you'd like to see no one get shot, but it takes a split second to point a gun and fire. I still can't say the police officer was in the wrong there. But again, I don't know specific policy.

Defunding the police is a stupid phrase, not necessarily a stupid policy.

 

[scotchtiger]

I didn't watch the video. But according to one article, they didn't announce themselves and they covered the door peep hole. Which was the reason he got his gun out. Whichever way it's found to have happened, I know from personal experience, law enforcement will cover peep hole, knock, and then not say anything when you ask who's there. Not that my personal experience is standard or means anything. At least I didn't get shot, but I see how I could have. Or not since I was white with gun in my hand.

I watched it. He declares he’s from the sheriffs department loudly, multiple times. He didn’t cover the peep hole, but did stand to the side of the door.

Cop shouldn’t have shot him, but the dude is still a moron.

 

[hopefultiger13]

Defunding the police is a stupid phrase, not necessarily a stupid policy.

For most folks yes... but there are some folks that are actually thinking that we get rid of our law enforcement system and start fresh. Not a fan of this at all.

That being said, I get what you are saying. We ask WAY WAY too much of our police officers. No matter what the situation is ... car wrecks, fires, crimes, people hurt or needing assistance of any type. There's a really good chance that the first "first responder" on the scene is going to be a police officer. They are charged with getting whatever situation under control... They need to be able to do AND are EXPECTED to do first aid, rescue, counseling, as well as their primary job. It's just too much to ask any one person to do, and our police usually do a good job.

So some people have been suggesting just that... that for instance maybe social workers show up at domestic disputes or drug ODs to help out. I'm OK with that and I think that most folks are. The problem with this is that the money was to come out of the police's budget. I'm actually NOT OK with that part of it (and this is where the "defund" stuff comes from. So, sure. A social worker being around could be a really good thing. BUT if you have a social worker show up with an officer instead of two officers showing up... not only do you have half the force if force is indeed required... that officer not only has to do all the work in that case, they ALSO have an extra person to protect in the Social Worker.

 

[flotiger]

In the video he does announce he’s from sheriff’s office but does stand away from the door so he can’t be seen in peep hole. I’m assuming they do that so as not to be shot through the door, which goes back to my point about cops having to constantly be on edge about encountering people with guns.

Agreed. I got around to watching it.

 

[flotiger]

I watched it. He declares he’s from the sheriffs department loudly, multiple times. He didn’t cover the peep hole, but did stand to the side of the door.

Cop shouldn’t have shot him, but the dude is still a moron.

Yeah, agree. I got around to watching it. Bad take on my part.

 

[adgjunior]

Maybe I’m being simplistic, but if you feel the need to get a gun, why answer the door at all?

 

[WapPride]

For most folks yes... but there are some folks that are actually thinking that we get rid of our law enforcement system and start fresh. Not a fan of this at all.

That being said, I get what you are saying. We ask WAY WAY too much of our police officers. No matter what the situation is ... car wrecks, fires, crimes, people hurt or needing assistance of any type. There's a really good chance that the first "first responder" on the scene is going to be a police officer. They are charged with getting whatever situation under control... They need to be able to do AND are EXPECTED to do first aid, rescue, counseling, as well as their primary job. It's just too much to ask any one person to do, and our police usually do a good job.

So some people have been suggesting just that... that for instance maybe social workers show up at domestic disputes or drug ODs to help out. I'm OK with that and I think that most folks are. The problem with this is that the money was to come out of the police's budget. I'm actually NOT OK with that part of it (and this is where the "defund" stuff comes from. So, sure. A social worker being around could be a really good thing. BUT if you have a social worker show up with an officer instead of two officers showing up... not only do you have half the force if force is indeed required... that officer not only has to do all the work in that case, they ALSO have an extra person to protect in the Social Worker.

The US spends more on their police than the vast majority of countries spend on their entire military force. There's no reason for the police to be running around cosplaying as some special forces outfit with tanks and shit.

Furthermore, social workers as first responders has been implemented in a few cities and has been an absolute success.

https://thehill.com/opinion/criminal-justice/4633006-its-official-non-police-first-responders-work-and-america-needs-more-of-them/

 

[hopefultiger13]

The US spends more on their police than the vast majority of countries spend on their entire military force. There's no reason for the police to be running around cosplaying as some special forces outfit with tanks and shit.

Furthermore, social workers as first responders has been implemented in a few cities and has been an absolute success.

https://thehill.com/opinion/criminal-justice/4633006-its-official-non-police-first-responders-work-and-america-needs-more-of-them/

Your first statement is kind of silly IMHO... Yes the US spends more money on police than the vast majority of countries spend on their military. That's because the US is the 5th largest country in the world by area and the 3rd largest country in the world in population. We also lock up a larger portion of our population than any other industrialized nation. It makes a LOT of sense that more money goes there than for the vast majority of countries.

Your point it well taken on the military equipment stuff... I'd LOVE to see numbers on this type of equipment and how often it gets used vs. the cost in upkeep. Because, I agree it seems like a waste. Yes the police need to be able to handle any situation and we have some pretty strict rules on using the military domestically... So they have to be ready for any situation.

But there aren't a ton of cops running around like this... Most are on patrol with a handgun and a long gun in their vehicle in reserve. Saying that they are all out cosplaying is like saying they are all driving around looking for brown people to abuse. It's just not so as a rule.

As I said above, I'm all about putting less on law enforcement and I totally believe that having specialists available can make an enormous positive change... I'm just cautious about diverting funding from current police levels to fund that and having less actual officers and more specialists.

Let's run some numbers. Note that I'm pulling these out of the air and have done no research here.

Let's say you are a large metro police force in an urban area. You have social worker specialists that respond to drug overdoses (someone's freaking out), domestic violence, and suicide negotiations (and whatever else). Just for round numbers, lets say that the average specialist responds to 5 incidents a shift, 90% of which they are able to resolve with no problems and 10% that require force/arrest to resolve. Does that seem reasonable?

So 5 shifts a week and lets say 48 weeks a year makes for 1200 incidents a year and 120 of those required the police officer to step in and use force and/or arrest someone. That's 120 times a year that that specialist and accompanying officer are in a situation where it would be better for there to be 2 officers than an officer and a specialist. That's a 90% resolution for the specialist... an A in almost anyone's book. Success!!! Lives are being saved.

But that's also 120 times a year... more than twice a week, where things don't go well. And that specialist and officer had to deal with a situation where the specialist isn't very useful and you have an officer that not only has to worry about themselves but the specialist as well. And it only takes one bad one for someone to end up dead... either the person that the call was on, the officer, or the specialist.

That's why I'm advocating for the number of officers to stay the same while the specialists are simply added on. AT LEAST until you have numbers to show what the answers.

 

[dbjork6317]

Maybe I’m being simplistic, but if you feel the need to get a gun, why answer the door at all?

I think this is a good question so let’s play it out.

In this situation, it is a cop. Now certainly the person could have chosen to not answer the door, and that probably would have been a wiser decision than answering with a gun. But the cop isn’t going to just go away. He’s going to break down the door and say he had probable cause due to the 911 call.

Now, maybe the dude still gets shot, but even if he doesn’t he’s now doorless. Not sure how the responsibility for that works out. Then they’re going to arrest him for disobeying a lawful order or whatever other thing they can think of.

Basically, if an actual cop shows up at your door and you’re completely and totally innocent, you’re still ****ed. The only way for you to not be ****ed is to completely and totally comply, which in this case means A) risking that it’s not a real cop and that it’s someone wanting to do harm or B) immediately giving up your god given constitutional right to defend yourself against the state.

 

[PAWrocka]

Soooooo a couple of things

- he paused a LONG time at the door before knocking. The video seems strange like the audio was edited out at that moment, soooo he could’ve paused because he was talking to dispatch, but …. why would you edit that out? it’s just strange in that section of video

- why didn’t he wait for back up. I have a few cop buddies and they have told me that domestic disputes are the most probable to go sideways, because there is a lot of irrational emotion involved. Since there was no active (from his perspective) threat, he should’ve waited for his back up.

- this is my own prejudice here, but if a man beats the shit out of his woman, he is of low low low the lowest of character and it’s not a far leap for me to think that he would be involved in other nefarious shenanigans. Total speculation, but I suspect the victim maybe involved in the drug trade. Thieves acting as cops is very common in that space, hence why he came to the door with his gun

- now … I think the officer is completely in the wrong here. Just because he came to the door with a gun, doesn’t mean he is a threat to the officer. Like @dbjork6317 said, if you can be shot by an officer in your own home for merely holding a firearm? Do you really have the right to bare arms? It’s tough situation but at the very least … very least …. The officer violated the victims civil rights. Did the guy die?

 

[scotchtiger]

Soooooo a couple of things

- he paused a LONG time at the door before knocking. The video seems strange like the audio was edited out at that moment, soooo he could’ve paused because he was talking to dispatch, but …. why would you edit that out? it’s just strange in that section of video

- why didn’t he wait for back up. I have a few cop buddies and they have told me that domestic disputes are the most probable to go sideways, because there is a lot of irrational emotion involved. Since there was no active (from his perspective) threat, he should’ve waited for his back up.

- this is my own prejudice here, but if a man beats the shit out of his woman, he is of low low low the lowest of character and it’s not a far leap for me to think that he would be involved in other nefarious shenanigans. Total speculation, but I suspect the victim maybe involved in the drug trade. Thieves acting as cops is very common in that space, hence why he came to the door with his gun

- now … I think the officer is completely in the wrong here. Just because he came to the door with a gun, doesn’t mean he is a threat to the officer. Like @dbjork6317 said, if you can be shot by an officer in your own home for merely holding a firearm? Do you really have the right to bare arms? It’s tough situation but at the very least … very least …. The officer violated the victims civil rights. Did the guy die?

One bullet number one, I think he was leaning in and trying to listen to see if he heard anything going on.

 

[PAWrocka]

One bullet number one, I think he was leaning in and trying to listen to see if he heard anything going on.

Ahhhhhh ok … ya… that makes sense

 

[adgjunior]

I think this is a good question so let’s play it out.

In this situation, it is a cop. Now certainly the person could have chosen to not answer the door, and that probably would have been a wiser decision than answering with a gun. But the cop isn’t going to just go away. He’s going to break down the door and say he had probable cause due to the 911 call.

Now, maybe the dude still gets shot, but even if he doesn’t he’s now doorless. Not sure how the responsibility for that works out. Then they’re going to arrest him for disobeying a lawful order or whatever other thing they can think of.

Basically, if an actual cop shows up at your door and you’re completely and totally innocent, you’re still ****ed. The only way for you to not be ****ed is to completely and totally comply, which in this case means A) risking that it’s not a real cop and that it’s someone wanting to do harm or B) immediately giving up your god given constitutional right to defend yourself against the state.

I get all the ways it could play out, but I stand by my original observation: if you feel the need to grab a gun, don’t answer the door.

When you open the door with a gun, you are prompting a confrontation that could end badly for either party regardless of who's on the other side.

 

[PAWrocka]

I get all the ways it could play out, but I stand by my original observation: if you feel the need to grab a gun, don’t answer the door.

When you open the door with a gun, you are prompting a confrontation that could end badly for either party regardless of who's on the other side.

Man … ya … it’s an interesting one for sure. Dude was certainly a dumbass … if you are going to open the door, assuming you think you need the gun, why open it wide open? Why not crack it to confirm who it is?

I still believe there is something fundamentally wrong with a cop shooting a guy, in his own home, when the guy didn’t raise his weapon. Like I said, at the very very very least, this is a violation of civil rights.

 

[adgjunior]

Man … ya … it’s an interesting one for sure. Dude was certainly a dumbass … if you are going to open the door, assuming you think you need the gun, why open it wide open? Why not crack it to confirm who it is?

I still believe there is something fundamentally wrong with a cop shooting a guy, in his own home, when the guy didn’t raise his weapon. Like I said, at the very very very least, this is a violation of civil rights.

The cop is 100% at fault and should be punished accordingly. But damn, I just can’t get away from the fact that someone thinks what’s on the other side of that door could be dangerous enough to justify grabbing a gun and still opens the door.

 

[scotchtiger]

On the subject of the guy potentially being worried it wasn’t actually an officer… How about use your words and ask for verification before opening the door? It feels like something I would need to tell my 4 year old, not an adult.

The guy is a world class moron. The cop screwed up too, but the global IQ ticked up if this fella didn’t make it.

 

[Johnstone D-5]

Defunding the police is a stupid phrase, not necessarily a stupid policy.

Defunding the police is not necessarily a stupid policy? Hilarious.

 

[dbjork6317]

Defunding the police is not necessarily a stupid policy? Hilarious.

Do you understand what the policy ideas behind the phrase are?

 

[dbjork6317]

On the subject of the guy potentially being worried it wasn’t actually an officer… How about use your words and ask for verification before opening the door? It feels like something I would need to tell my 4 year old, not an adult.

The guy is a world class moron. The cop screwed up too, but the global IQ ticked up if this fella didn’t make it.

Ah yes, because criminals posing as cops are famously honest if you just ask them if they’re really a cop.

 

[scotchtiger]

Ah yes, because criminals posing as cops are famously honest if you just ask them if they’re really a cop.

If you are really concerned, you announce to the officer that you can’t be sure that they are legitimate. Announce that you are calling 911 to verify. This isn’t difficult. You don’t answer the door with a freaking gun.

 

[dbjork6317]

If you are really concerned, you announce to the officer that you can’t be sure that they are legitimate. Announce that you are calling 911 to verify. This isn’t difficult. You don’t answer the door with a freaking gun.

Ah yes, because police are famously patient in these situations.

 

[adgjunior]

Ah yes, because police are famously patient in these situations.

I bet statistically the percentage of times police knock on a door and announce their presence in this country daily with nobody getting killed vs someone dying is not far below 100.

This is a tragedy and one that should have been avoided, but using as an indictment on the millions of US police officers is ridiculous.

 

[fatpiggy]

Do you understand what the policy ideas behind the phrase are?

Yes, I understand they are stupid.

Defund the police. I hope democrats resurrect the dumbest idea in politics. It’s a great campaign slogan for Dems.

 

[fatpiggy]

If you are really concerned, you announce to the officer that you can’t be sure that they are legitimate. Announce that you are calling 911 to verify. This isn’t difficult. You don’t answer the door with a freaking gun.

In fact, if you have blue lights behind you, you are legally allowed to put your hazards on, and continue driving while you call 911 to ensure the police are real.


Democrats want to defund the police. And they control all of the high crime cities.

 

[scotchtiger]

Ah yes, because police are famously patient in these situations.

It’s funny, I never seem to have a problem when interacting with the police. Wonder why?

 

[dbjork6317]

It’s funny, I never seem to have a problem when interacting with the police. Wonder why?

I’m gonna guess you’ve never had a neighbor wrongfully call 911 on you

Its weird how you consistently seem to be unable to comprehend that your personal experiences are not universal.

 

[AugTig]

I’m gonna guess you’ve never had a neighbor wrongfully call 911 on you

Its weird how you consistently seem to be unable to comprehend that your personal experiences are not universal.

It’s not weird at all. He has common sense.

 

[fatpiggy]

I’ve had several interactions with police, never had a problem. Weird.