All military aid to Ukraine paused

[UrHuckleberry]

No I’m saying they didn’t invade based what your side is claiming. Ports, minerals land etc.

I’m not sure why the expansion of nato into Ukraine being deemed troublesome by Russia needs to be explained. Surely you understand that. But for fun. What do you think Americas response would be if china, or there war fighting allies, funded to the tits with weapons and money from china, expanded into the Caribbean and Canada??

Got you on the first. Was genuinely asking because the new movement to act like they didn't invade period is weird. Fine with people thinking it was for different reasons. No one actually knows the true reasons, so its all conjecture either way. Won't presume to know the inner thoughts of Putin and claim my interpretation is the 100% truth.

I get why Russia wouldn't want it. But also, is the thought that Russia would be invaded by NATO? Would we not want more countries in a strategic alliance with us? We certainly didn't want Russian nukes in Cuba, but that was more about Russia being aggressive towards us than it was protecting Cuba from us.

 

[UrHuckleberry]

Huge mistake by Zelensky.

I think Trump would negotiate with a different leader.

If he wants to save his country, he needs to step aside.

Agree with this. Trump is petty enough that he still blames Zelensky for not lying for him the first go round. Totally agree he would make decisions based on that alone.

 

[UrHuckleberry]

Trump was the bully?

I don't think so.

Zelensky is trying to bully the American people into a war we don't want, to defend ideals we don't agree with.

THANK YOU DONALD TRUMP FOR REJECTING WAR

Do you have limits to this? Should we give Taiwan to China?

 

[MTTiger19]

Got you on the first. Was genuinely asking because the new movement to act like they didn't invade period is weird. Fine with people thinking it was for different reasons. No one actually knows the true reasons, so its all conjecture either way. Won't presume to know the inner thoughts of Putin and claim my interpretation is the 100% truth.

I get why Russia wouldn't want it. But also, is the thought that Russia would be invaded by NATO? Would we not want more countries in a strategic alliance with us? We certainly didn't want Russian nukes in Cuba, but that was more about Russia being aggressive towards us than it was protecting Cuba from us.

Look at what nato was formed for. I understand the ussr no longer exist but this is a threat to them. NATO has essentially gone full blown anti Russia. So of course we want Ukraine in nato but there’s sovereign nations that will be impacted by our push for expansion. Those countries don’t like that and neither would we. This was expanded by Biden and the push became a full blown war.

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization was created in 1949 by the United States, Canada, and several Western European nations to provide collective security against the Soviet Union. NATO was the first peacetime military alliancethe United States entered into outside of the Western Hemisphere.

 

[UrHuckleberry]

Look at what nato was formed for. I understand the ussr no longer exist but this is a threat to them. NATO has essentially gone full blown anti Russia. So of course we want Ukraine in nato but there’s sovereign nations that will be impacted by our push for expansion. Those countries don’t like that and neither would we. This was expanded by Biden and the push became a full blown war.

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization was created in 1949 by the United States, Canada, and several Western European nations to provide collective security against the Soviet Union. NATO was the first peacetime military alliancethe United States entered into outside of the Western Hemisphere.

Why is it a threat to them?

 

[fatpiggy]

Do you have limits to this? Should we give Taiwan to China?

Fair question.

I think its probably a good time to review our stance on Taiwan. I do not have an opinion on that without looking. But i do think the US should review everything that we are doing. Everything. "Because we did it that way in the past" is no longer an acceptable answer. The past was not where we want to be. We were on the wrong road. We must review and adjust.

What caused us to give Taiwan security guarantees in the first place?
Has the deal been honored by both sides?

If so, I would say to honor the deal we made.

If Taiwan is not honoring the deal, we should re-negotiate the deal.

Sound reasonable to you? If not, let me know why not.

 

[MTTiger19]

Why is it a threat to them?

Why are you saying they’re a threat to us? Why is china a threat to us? Doesn’t matter what I think. That’s what the leaders of those countries think. Ask them. My guess is that it’s got something to do with our insatiable appetite for regime change. We’ve been trying to get rid of Putin for decades. Seems like a threat.

We are constantly sticking our nose in other countries business.

 

[MTTiger19]

Got you on the first. Was genuinely asking because the new movement to act like they didn't invade period is weird. Fine with people thinking it was for different reasons. No one actually knows the true reasons, so its all conjecture either way. Won't presume to know the inner thoughts of Putin and claim my interpretation is the 100% truth.

I get why Russia wouldn't want it. But also, is the thought that Russia would be invaded by NATO? Would we not want more countries in a strategic alliance with us? We certainly didn't want Russian nukes in Cuba, but that was more about Russia being aggressive towards us than it was protecting Cuba from us.

The other part of this you’re ignoring is the why. Why did Russia invade Ukraine in 2014. Were they just war hungry animals thirsty for death or were they provoked. That’s important to understand. And what impact did expansion of nato have on 2021. And why were we so dead set on it when Putin told us Russia wouldn’t stand for expansion? I feel like a lot of the Russian hate is from older people on here that lived during the Cold War. Russia has done nothing in my lifetime that I would consider overly aggressive.

On the contrary, we have been involved in over 100 regime changes since WW2. Maybe our intervention policy needs to be revisited. Look at Iraq and Afghanistan. We ruined them.

 

[DrTigerGoob]

Where were all the patriotic democrats politicians and media when they knew we had an invalid for potus and covered for him? You know people who spent time with him knew he was not mentally capable and could not carry put his duties as potus, but no one said a thing until it was clear he would lose the election. Then, suddenly stories start to make their way out about his mental ability to the public- at least the ones that were too stupid or blinded by ideology to see it or admit it when it was perfectly clear to many from just tv coverage.

Also, why don't we let this play out and see what happens before passing judgment. And not for nothing, but why is it that Putin land grab attempts only started under dems if trump is a russian asset? Why did none of this happen when he was potus the first time?

This is another example of a Trump land grab too.

Panama Canal
Gaza
Redraw the border with Canada
Greenland
Now Ukraine's mineral rights for years

 

[ANEW]

The other part of this you’re ignoring is the why. Why did Russia invade Ukraine in 2014. Were they just war hungry animals thirsty for death or were they provoked. That’s important to understand. And what impact did expansion of nato have on 2021. And why were we so dead set on it when Putin told us Russia wouldn’t stand for expansion? I feel like a lot of the Russian hate is from older people on here that lived during the Cold War. Russia has done nothing in my lifetime that I would consider overly aggressive.

I'm "older" i grew up during the cold war and I went in the Army when USSR was enemy #1 with #2 (china) being barely an afterthought.

The fact is that NATO couldn't leave well enough along and broke all agreements to expand east to Russia's borders. Russia has repeatedly said and acted consistently but for some reason nobody listened. Russia protested strongly during the 1990s as NATO expanded into eatern europe (Poland et al ) and then the baltic states. Then in 2008 with Georgia moving to join the EU and talk of them Joining NATO Russia invaded to prevent that. Then we (the US) promoted regime change in Ukraine to oust a friendly government and got the same result and Russia annexed Crimea and the long time russian held port in Sevastopol. And then we (NATO/EU) went back to it and started pushing for Ukraine to go down the EU/NATO path.

 

[BigPapaWhit]

Where on earth have you read that Russia is trying to invade Ukraine?

Stop watching CNN and Maddow. You just claimed that Russia’s goal is “to gain most of the territory in Ukraine to include ports, grains, minerals and oil”. That’s a lie. They were initially fighting in Donbas as those are Russian people living in Ukraine that wanted independence. They’ve since moved in 2021 to prevent NATO from eastern expansion. It’s not that difficult to understand. We would do the same thing if china tried to import their allies to Canada and encroach on our border.

My point on ground troops is simple. Your side keeps lying. Saying stuff like you did above that’s quoted. If that was truly what they wanted why are they dicking around with tanks. They could have all that tomorrow with a couple of middle strikes. He’s never been stronger than now after we’ve eliminated our military aid yet they do nothing. Maybe you’re on the wrong side. As I said earlier. One leader is seeking a cease fire the other is dead set on kicking off WW3. You seem to really love the latter.

Wikipedia
In late 2021, Russia massed troops near Ukraine's borders and issued demands to the West including a ban on Ukraine ever joining the NATO military alliance.[19] After repeatedly denying having plans to attack Ukraine, on 24 February 2022, Russian president Vladimir Putin announced a "special military operation", saying that it was to support the Russian-backed breakaway republics of Donetsk and Luhansk, whose paramilitary forces had been fighting Ukraine in the war in Donbas since 2014. Putin espoused irredentist and imperialist views challenging Ukraine's legitimacy as a state, baselessly claimed that the Ukrainian government were neo-Naziscommitting genocide against the Russian minority in the Donbas, and said that Russia's goal was to "demilitarise and denazify" Ukraine.[20][21][22][23] Russian air strikes and a ground invasion were launched on a northern front from Belarus towards the capital Kyiv, a southern front from Crimea, and an eastern front from the Donbas and towards Kharkiv. Ukraine enacted martial law, ordered a general mobilisation, and severed diplomatic relations with Russia.

Edit: I did find someone that agrees with you tho.

View embedded media

[/QUOTE]
Who the hell is my side? What are they lying about?

Just curious...
Are you familiar with military doctrine? or the National Defense Strategy? Or does your basic understanding of military and politics come from paperback novels, Fox News, and playing video games.

Also, Wikipedia is not considered an authoritative source.

 

[WapPride]

The other part of this you’re ignoring is the why. Why did Russia invade Ukraine in 2014. Were they just war hungry animals thirsty for death or were they provoked. That’s important to understand. And what impact did expansion of nato have on 2021. And why were we so dead set on it when Putin told us Russia wouldn’t stand for expansion? I feel like a lot of the Russian hate is from older people on here that lived during the Cold War. Russia has done nothing in my lifetime that I would consider overly aggressive.

On the contrary, we have been involved in over 100 regime changes since WW2. Maybe our intervention policy needs to be revisited. Look at Iraq and Afghanistan. We ruined them.

How old are you?

Russia put $100k bounties on US Soldiers in Afghanistan/Syria/etc. Russia supplies/supplied weapons/support to the Taliban. Russia continuously attacks our cyber infrastructure.

Russia is not an ally. They are a despotic nation interested in overthrowing US hegemony and taking our place at the top.

 

[Casa_del_Tigre]

If you’re anti war this is a good thing. Throughout all of history being anti war has been the minority view, often getting called names because of it.

Now let’s do the same with Israel. Cut off all these socialist leaches.

 

[MTTiger19]

How old are you?

Russia put $100k bounties on US Soldiers in Afghanistan/Syria/etc. Russia supplies/supplied weapons/support to the Taliban. Russia continuously attacks our cyber infrastructure.

Russia is not an ally. They are a despotic nation interested in overthrowing US hegemony and taking our place at the top.

Old enough to see this American interventionism blow up in our faces over and over. How many times were we right? I don’t think Russia is an ally. But if you follow most liberal thought processes, don’t they have a right to exist and be sovereign?

@ANEW post is spot on.

 

[MTTiger19]

I'm "older" i grew up during the cold war and I went in the Army when USSR was enemy #1 with #2 (china) being barely an afterthought.

The fact is that NATO couldn't leave well enough along and broke all agreements to expand east to Russia's borders. Russia has repeatedly said and acted consistently but for some reason nobody listened. Russia protested strongly during the 1990s as NATO expanded into eatern europe (Poland et al ) and then the baltic states. Then in 2008 with Georgia moving to join the EU and talk of them Joining NATO Russia invaded to prevent that. Then we (the US) promoted regime change in Ukraine to oust a friendly government and got the same result and Russia annexed Crimea and the long time russian held port in Sevastopol. And then we (NATO/EU) went back to it and started pushing for Ukraine to go down the EU/NATO path.

You may be older but you have a much better understanding of what’s going on right now. The previous administration really ramped this up.

 

[WapPride]

Old enough to see this American interventionism blow up in our faces over and over. How many times were we right? I don’t think Russia is an ally. But if you follow most liberal thought processes, don’t they have a right to exist and be sovereign?

@ANEW post is spot on.

How many times were you right about what?

I don't disagree wrt interventionism. It's a pretty big reason why South America/Latin American countries are so ****ed right now.

No one's saying Russia doesn't have autonomy. Do you agree that the actions I listed prove Russian aggression towards the US?

 

[MTTiger19]

How many times were you right about what?

I don't disagree wrt interventionism. It's a pretty big reason why South America/Latin American countries are so ****ed right now.

No one's saying Russia doesn't have autonomy. Do you agree that the actions I listed prove Russian aggression towards the US?

I agree they’ve been aggressive in the past. But this discussions relevance is with the recent conflict. And in this particular example there’s nothing aggressive from Russia towards the US. You could make an argument that Zelensky was much more aggressive with his desire than even Putin. That was an incredibly pompous move to scold our president and American people. He got bad intel on that one.

 

[ANEW]

How old are you?

Russia put $100k bounties on US Soldiers in Afghanistan/Syria/etc. Russia supplies/supplied weapons/support to the Taliban. Russia continuously attacks our cyber infrastructure.

Russia is not an ally. They are a despotic nation interested in overthrowing US hegemony and taking our place at the top.

I don't want in the middle of a two-way pissing contest but the Taliban are a really good example. We started that, you know.

We armed them up and helped them kill a lot of russians and helped promote them into what they later became so that they could harbor someone who masterminded the attacks on 9/11/2001 and then we could spend $billions and send people to kill them after that.

Perplexity AI
Operation Cyclone was a covert CIA program aimed at arming and financing Afghan mujahideen fighters during the Soviet-Afghan War (1979-1989). The program began in 1979 and continued until 1992, making it one of the longest and most expensive covert operations ever undertaken by the CIA2.

The primary goal of Operation Cyclone was to support the Afghan resistance against the Soviet invasion. The US provided billions of dollars in weapons, training, and financial support to the mujahideen, with funding increasing dramatically over the years. The program leaned heavily towards supporting militant Islamic groups favored by Pakistan's regime

 

[UrHuckleberry]

Fair question.

I think its probably a good time to review our stance on Taiwan. I do not have an opinion on that without looking. But i do think the US should review everything that we are doing. Everything. "Because we did it that way in the past" is no longer an acceptable answer. The past was not where we want to be. We were on the wrong road. We must review and adjust.

What caused us to give Taiwan security guarantees in the first place?
Has the deal been honored by both sides?

If so, I would say to honor the deal we made.

If Taiwan is not honoring the deal, we should re-negotiate the deal.

Sound reasonable to you? If not, let me know why not.

I appreciate your consistency. Even if I disagree with an opinion etc, always appreciate if people are at least consistent with their views.

And I generally think that even if we aren't getting a straightforward 2 X = 2 X in supporting countries like Ukraine and Taiwan, we do gain a lot by having allies in the region. Similar to wanting the US to support Israel as they are our main ally in the region. I wouldn't expect a trade with them, or our help given to them to be of equal value on the face, similar to a business. That is simplistic and I believe incorrect.

 

[WapPride]

I agree they’ve been aggressive in the past. But this discussions relevance is with the recent conflict. And in this particular example there’s nothing aggressive from Russia towards the US. You could make an argument that Zelensky was much more aggressive with his desire than even Putin. That was an incredibly pompous move to scold our president and American people. He got bad intel on that one.

What's the statute of limitations on aggressive behavior? Funding taliban/bounties on US soldiers was 5-6 years ago.

I don't recall seeing Zelensky scold anyone, and I watched the entire meeting. I remember seeing Vance/Trump/Journalists team up on him, but nothing overtly hostile from him.

 

[WapPride]

I don't want in the middle of a two-way pissing contest but the Taliban are a really good example. We started that, you know.

We armed them up and helped them kill a lot of russians and helped promote them into what they later became so that they could harbor someone who masterminded the attacks on 9/11/2001 and then we could spend $billions and send people to kill them after that.

Perplexity AI
Operation Cyclone was a covert CIA program aimed at arming and financing Afghan mujahideen fighters during the Soviet-Afghan War (1979-1989). The program began in 1979 and continued until 1992, making it one of the longest and most expensive covert operations ever undertaken by the CIA2.

The primary goal of Operation Cyclone was to support the Afghan resistance against the Soviet invasion. The US provided billions of dollars in weapons, training, and financial support to the mujahideen, with funding increasing dramatically over the years. The program leaned heavily towards supporting militant Islamic groups favored by Pakistan's regime

Yep, Russians and Chinese provided support and weaponry for the NVA during the Vietnam War, we returned the favor in the 80s with the Afghanis. We shot ourselves in the foot wrt Afghanistan by abandoning them after the USSR was pushed out.

 

[MTTiger19]

What's the statute of limitations on aggressive behavior? Funding taliban/bounties on US soldiers was 5-6 years ago.

I don't recall seeing Zelensky scold anyone, and I watched the entire meeting. I remember seeing Vance/Trump/Journalists team up on him, but nothing overtly hostile from him.

Idk. We were pretty damn aggressive is Vietnam. Has that reached the statute? Would you be cool with Vietnam or Iraq bombing us bc we were aggressive towards them in the past? What a weird way to think. This is a specific conflict. How’s that so difficult. Read @ANEW posts. He’s spot on. Is
It chicken or egg.

Now if you don’t think telling the sitting president and VP that they can F off and you want more money to fight idk what to tell you. He literally said no to a cease fire.

 

[Spencer_York]

This is only going to result in a weaker, poorer, and less trusted United States. I hope everyone enjoyed the last 80 years of post war prosperity, it is going the way of the dodo bird by the look of things

 

[Spencer_York]

Idk. We were pretty damn aggressive is Vietnam. Has that reached the statute? Would you be cool with Vietnam or Iraq bombing us bc we were aggressive towards them in the past? What a weird way to think. This is a specific conflict. How’s that so difficult. Read @ANEW posts. He’s spot on. Is
It chicken or egg.

Now if you don’t think telling the sitting president and VP that they can F off and you want more money to fight idk what to tell you. He literally said no to a cease fire.

Zelensky is not willing to agree to a ceasefire because his nation is under occupation and there is no guarantee that Putin will hold to his word

 

[WapPride]

Idk. We were pretty damn aggressive is Vietnam. Has that reached the statute? Would you be cool with Vietnam or Iraq bombing us bc we were aggressive towards them in the past? What a weird way to think. This is a specific conflict. How’s that so difficult. Read @ANEW posts. He’s spot on. Is
It chicken or egg.

Now if you don’t think telling the sitting president and VP that they can F off and you want more money to fight idk what to tell you. He literally said no to a cease fire.

Lol what are you even going on about in the first paragraph? Boris Yeltsin approved NATO expansion in 1993 - and it became set in stone with the NATO Russia Founding Act in 1996. Russia (primarily Putin) have conveniently ignored that when he started complaining about NATO expansion in 2007. I've read his post, but i'm having a conversation with you. If you don't know how to articulate your points and want to rely on other people to do it for you, that's fine I guess.

When did Zelensky tell Trump and Pence to **** off? I remember him not agreeing to sign over 50% ownership rights to all minerals in Ukraine, which is a ridiculous ask to begin with, but never told them to **** off.

 

[Cabotiger]

Trump is petty. His style is to bully. He and Vance should be ashamed of their behavior Friday! Of course the White House & his staff are trying to sell it as Zelenski's fault., It was started by Vance wanting Zelenski to "kiss" Trump's, ring. Most of the rest of the Republicans already have. There are lots of worthless politicians in Washington & some are from South Carolina. They kiss Trump's butt and think all is well!. Why don't they have the courage to stand up for what's right.

Did you watch the entire 41 minutes or just the last several minutes that CNN wanted you to see? Zelensky was acting like a spoiled brat until Trump and Vance shut him down and sent him on his way.

 

[MTTiger19]

Lol what are you even going on about in the first paragraph? Boris Yeltsin approved NATO expansion in 1993 - and it became set in stone with the NATO Russia Founding Act in 1996. Russia (primarily Putin) have conveniently ignored that when he started complaining about NATO expansion in 2007. I've read his post, but i'm having a conversation with you. If you don't know how to articulate your points and want to rely on other people to do it for you, that's fine I guess.

When did Zelensky tell Trump and Pence to **** off? I remember him not agreeing to sign over 50% ownership rights to all minerals in Ukraine, which is a ridiculous ask to begin with, but never told them to **** off.

I give up. You’re right. The simple fact you think we are talking about pence tells me everything I need to know. I think I’ve articulated my position very well. It’s easy to see where I stand. @ANEW just made a lot of good points and I’m trying to do this posting on an iPhone on 85. That’s all big guy. I can debate your points.

 

[Cabotiger]

No I’m saying they didn’t invade based what your side is claiming. Ports, minerals land etc. The invasion in 2014 was a response to the Donbas crisis. Ethnic Russians living in Ukraine seeking independence from Ukraine.

I’m not sure why the expansion of nato into Ukraine being deemed troublesome by Russia needs to be explained. Surely you understand that. But for fun. What do you think Americas response would be if china, or there war fighting allies, funded to the tits with weapons and money from china, expanded into the Caribbean and Canada??

China tried that in Panama and was successful in Costa Rica so far but that will change soon as well.
Over 100,000 Chinese live in Costa Rica all because they built a soccer stadium with the agreement their citizens could fully immigrate there. Lol

 

[UrHuckleberry]

I give up. You’re right. The simple fact you think we are talking about pence tells me everything I need to know.

lol you know he just was typing quickly and typed Pence instead of Vance. They even sound the same and were both Trump VP's. You know he's not talking about Pence.

 

[WapPride]

I give up. You’re right. The simple fact you think we are talking about pence tells me everything I need to know. I think I’ve articulated my position very well. It’s easy to see where I stand. @ANEW just made a lot of good points and I’m trying to do this posting on an iPhone on 85. That’s all big guy. I can debate your points.

Oh I apologize for getting the two VPs mixed up whose names are nearly identical.

Get off your phone when driving - that's how accidents happen. Damn youths and their incessant need to text and drive, smh.

 

[fatpiggy]

I appreciate your consistency. Even if I disagree with an opinion etc, always appreciate if people are at least consistent with their views.

And I generally think that even if we aren't getting a straightforward 2 X = 2 X in supporting countries like Ukraine and Taiwan, we do gain a lot by having allies in the region. Similar to wanting the US to support Israel as they are our main ally in the region. I wouldn't expect a trade with them, or our help given to them to be of equal value on the face, similar to a business. That is simplistic and I believe incorrect.

I don't think we want to be isolationist. We want the deal we struck with NATO to be upheld. We want trading partners, we just want ones that are beneficial to us, like us, share our ideals, and honor their commitments. Are they really committed if AFTER Putin invaded Ukraine some of these countries STILL won't honor their commitments on spending? They have big fat social programs but wont meet their spending obligations. Their entitlement programs are money coming out of OUR pockets.

The world has changed since NATO was signed. Europe is moving to a more authoritarian government at a time when America spoke loudly we would not go that direction. We are diverging. I don't think Trump is wrong to re-evaluate. Things change.


From AI:

Yes, Donald Trump’s point that some NATO countries don’t spend enough on defense has a factual basis and is a legitimate critique, though it’s part of a broader debate. NATO’s guideline, agreed upon in 2014, is for members to spend 2% of their GDP on defense. As of recent years, not all 32 member countries meet this target. In 2023, for instance, only 11 NATO countries hit or exceeded the 2% mark, according to NATO’s own data. The U.S., spending around 3.5% of its GDP, shoulders a disproportionate share of the alliance’s military burden—about 68% of total NATO defense spending.
Trump’s argument, echoed during his presidency and beyond, is that this imbalance is unfair to American taxpayers and weakens collective security if allies aren’t pulling their weight. Critics counter that GDP percentage isn’t the whole story—some nations contribute through troop deployments, strategic positioning, or non-military support like logistics. For example, Germany (1.57% in 2023) hosts key U.S. bases, which indirectly boosts NATO’s strength, even if its direct spending lags.
The flip side? Some see Trump’s focus as oversimplified or a pressure tactic to boost U.S. arms sales to allies. Still, the spending gap is real—countries like Luxembourg (0.72%) or Spain (1.28%) consistently fall short, raising valid questions about commitment. Data from 2024 shows progress, with 23 allies projected to hit 2%, spurred partly by Russia’s war in Ukraine, but the disparity hasn’t vanished.
So, yeah, it’s a legit point grounded in numbers and NATO’s own goals, even if the solutions and implications are messy. What do you think—should the 2% rule be stricter, or is it too blunt a measure?

 

[fatpiggy]

This is only going to result in a weaker, poorer, and less trusted United States. I hope everyone enjoyed the last 80 years of post war prosperity, it is going the way of the dodo bird by the look of things

Honestly the last 5 years you can have back.

They were depressing and built on sham governemnet spending. That bubble was going to pop and was unsustainable. Your little rainbows and unicorn world wasn't going to last forever.

 

[UrHuckleberry]

I don't think we want to be isolationist. We want the deal we struck with NATO to be upheld. We want trading partners, we just want ones that are beneficial to us, like us, share our ideals, and honor their commitments. Are they really committed if AFTER Putin invaded Ukraine some of these countries STILL won't honor their commitments on spending? They have big fat social programs but wont meet their spending obligations. Their entitlement programs are money coming out of OUR pockets.

The world has changed since NATO was signed. Europe is moving to a more authoritarian government at a time when America spoke loudly we would not go that direction. We are diverging. I don't think Trump is wrong to re-evaluate. Things change.


From AI:

Yes, Donald Trump’s point that some NATO countries don’t spend enough on defense has a factual basis and is a legitimate critique, though it’s part of a broader debate. NATO’s guideline, agreed upon in 2014, is for members to spend 2% of their GDP on defense. As of recent years, not all 32 member countries meet this target. In 2023, for instance, only 11 NATO countries hit or exceeded the 2% mark, according to NATO’s own data. The U.S., spending around 3.5% of its GDP, shoulders a disproportionate share of the alliance’s military burden—about 68% of total NATO defense spending.
Trump’s argument, echoed during his presidency and beyond, is that this imbalance is unfair to American taxpayers and weakens collective security if allies aren’t pulling their weight. Critics counter that GDP percentage isn’t the whole story—some nations contribute through troop deployments, strategic positioning, or non-military support like logistics. For example, Germany (1.57% in 2023) hosts key U.S. bases, which indirectly boosts NATO’s strength, even if its direct spending lags.
The flip side? Some see Trump’s focus as oversimplified or a pressure tactic to boost U.S. arms sales to allies. Still, the spending gap is real—countries like Luxembourg (0.72%) or Spain (1.28%) consistently fall short, raising valid questions about commitment. Data from 2024 shows progress, with 23 allies projected to hit 2%, spurred partly by Russia’s war in Ukraine, but the disparity hasn’t vanished.
So, yeah, it’s a legit point grounded in numbers and NATO’s own goals, even if the solutions and implications are messy. What do you think—should the 2% rule be stricter, or is it too blunt a measure?

I truly don't want to pretend like I have all the answers. I think there are ways to work towards holding them accountable without acting like a bully. And if we provide aid to that country for example, I could see like withholding it up to the amount needed to reach their threshold or including clauses in our trade deals with countries. I think there are ways to level the balance without agreeing with Russia on seemingly everything. Russia does not hold our values either, and are in many ways even farther away from them.

 

[fatpiggy]

I truly don't want to pretend like I have all the answers. I think there are ways to work towards holding them accountable without acting like a bully. And if we provide aid to that country for example, I could see like withholding it up to the amount needed to reach their threshold or including clauses in our trade deals with countries. I think there are ways to level the balance without agreeing with Russia on seemingly everything. Russia does not hold our values either, and are in many ways even farther away from them.

We are waiting on those ways to hold them accountable without acting like a bully. Biden was not a bully. Don't you feel like we tried that route? And don't you agree it left us on the precipice of WWIII ?

 

[UrHuckleberry]

We are waiting on those ways to hold them accountable without acting like a bully. Biden was not a bully. Don't you feel like we tried that route? And don't you agree it left us on the precipice of WWIII ?

I think the "precipice of WWIII" is ridiculous when you say it just like when liberals say it for one.

And I think being strong, not backing down on trade deals for instance, or any of those other suggestions I thought of with like 2 seconds thought (meaning smarter people would likely have better ideas than me) would be ways we could be strong and hold them accountable without acting like a bully. I think it is possible to be strong without belittling and particularly publicly disparaging our allies, while regularly talking glowingly of dictators.

 

[fatpiggy]

I think the "precipice of WWIII" is ridiculous when you say it just like when liberals say it for one.

And I think being strong, not backing down on trade deals for instance, or any of those other suggestions I thought of with like 2 seconds thought (meaning smarter people would likely have better ideas than me) would be ways we could be strong and hold them accountable without acting like a bully. I think it is possible to be strong without belittling and particularly publicly disparaging our allies, while regularly talking glowingly of dictators.

Wait a second, you don't think we are on the doorstep of WWIII?

I don't care who says it, it certainly seems true to me.

And while it may be possible to get results without being a bully, it did not seem to work. I feel like we tried that route. Trump campaigned on getting results. He said he would end the war on day 1 and y'all laughed at him. And now when he does it you act liket his isn't what the American people wanted. This is EXACTLY what we wanted.

 

[MTTiger19]

Zelensky is not willing to agree to a ceasefire because his nation is under occupation and there is no guarantee that Putin will hold to his word

If he’s truly worried about security he would accept Trumps deal. That agreement puts American businesses (and citizens) in Ukraine. We will protect our assets at all costs. They want security, we get resources. Fair is fair. I think yall call it “soft power”.

 

[BigPapaWhit]

I truly don't want to pretend like I have all the answers. I think there are ways to work towards holding them accountable without acting like a bully. And if we provide aid to that country for example, I could see like withholding it up to the amount needed to reach their threshold or including clauses in our trade deals with countries. I think there are ways to level the balance without agreeing with Russia on seemingly everything. Russia does not hold our values either, and are in many ways even farther away from them.

This is where I am at. 👆

Negotiating with strength is understandable. However, it is another to kick the "corpse." Not that I am suggesting Ukraine is done. They have proven very resilient from the day Russia had tanks rolling into the country and soldiers parachuting around Kiev. Trump has brokered more deals than I have. However, the US may risk future deals by taking everything they can this time. For example, you might get every last penny from the car dealer this time. Good luck with the next purchase. Ukraine is not the only victim of Putin's "plan". Georgia and Chechnya were probably hoping for more autonomy. Will the Baltic states be next? Wonder how Poland or Hungary are feeling right now? With that in mind, putting pressure on NATO/Europe to put more skin in the game is definitely a smart move.

Another concern is the halting of Cyber Operations against Russia (if true). Russia arguable was already running circles around the US in cyber warfare. I keep hoping this is some kind of reverse psy ops thing. Unfortunately, I am beginning to wonder if Hydra has infiltrated the US Government.

 

[UrHuckleberry]

Wait a second, you don't think we are on the doorstep of WWIII?

I don't care who says it, it certainly seems true to me.

And while it may be possible to get results without being a bully, it did not seem to work. I feel like we tried that route. Trump campaigned on getting results. He said he would end the war on day 1 and y'all laughed at him. And now when he does it you act liket his isn't what the American people wanted. This is EXACTLY what we wanted.

I don't think Russia wants any part of actual world war. Not at all. Not talking about other nations potentially sending troops. That may be world involvement, but still not a world war.

And I don't know that most people understood that ending the war on day 1 (its not day 1 but beside the point) meant giving Russia everything it wanted without any capitulation on its part.

 

[MTTiger19]

Oh I apologize for getting the two VPs mixed up whose names are nearly identical.

Get off your phone when driving - that's how accidents happen. Damn youths and their incessant need to text and drive, smh.

Yes my apologies. All I’m saying is that we should take a measured approach to things when people are literally dying. I’m not ok sending money I earned to kill other people. I understand it’s much more complicated than that - but, it’s also much more complicated than, Russia bad, Ukraine good. There’s a lot that’s being factored in and we should tread lightly supporting any country with weapons. I cannot believe how hawkish the left has become. I never imagined having a decade over a cease fire with a pro war liberal. It’s a wild time to be alive. And before the well it was a bad deal and that’s why Zelensky turned it down. Listen, any deal is better than sending your own people to their deaths. Anything is better than that. To turn that down is insane. You stop the killing and hash it out diplomatically. Any other answer to that is just partisan horseshit.