I don't disagree....we nor Israel cannot just go barging in. I freely admit I don't know what the solution is.
America last.
- Thread starter BlueRidgedf
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anon_5e8aassgcbjz1
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Hamas is a thousand times more pragmatic and is half receptive to reason. The largely false notion is that they're the same. When ISIS criticizes Hamas for being too moderate, you should believe them.
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anon_5e8aassgcbjz1
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The guy who said they should be detained is Jonathan Pollard, a rat that sold US military secrets to Israel and then fled there when we let him out.
You don't do that sort of thing in the middle of trying to argue that you're a free and democratic society in the Middle East worth supporting.
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anon_5e8aassgcbjz1
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Concering the second paragraph, the Palestinians would say exactly the same thing about Israel. Did you have this opinon when Shireen Abu Akleh got killed by the IDF? She was a Palestinian-American (and Christian). What price did Israel pay for that?
Pragmatic? Perhaps, but they didn't seem at all moderate on Oct 7th. That was absolutely ISIS-level savagery.
Do you really think killing her was in Israeli government sanctioned hit? Soldiers and operatives are capable of losing their coal and being overcome by the blackness that they stare so long into. It was a mistake for Israel not to permit investigation and prosecution of what was an apparent illegal act.
But an entire division of Israeli soldiers did not rape and torture her, slaughter her children in from of her or cut out and mutilate her unbord child while she watched.
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anon_5e8aassgcbjz1
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Sadly, ISIS is still worse. They threw a Jordanian pilot into a cage, poured gasoline on him, and set him on fire. In another instance, they put Syrian soldiers into a cage and lowered it into a pool. In comparison, Hamas is keeping the hostages fed and in relatively decent shape as far as we can tell.
Hamas's governance of Gaza isn't comparable to the "caliphate." I've spoken to a Palestinian Muslim guy who was there a couple years ago. I'm acquainted with an Arab Christian woman from Israel's north. I know plenty of Lebanese people. The consensus is the same. Hamas/Hezbollah are bad, but they're human.
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anon_5e8aassgcbjz1
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Israeli police beat funeral-goers when she was laid to rest. The Israeli army later bulldozed a memorial where she was killed. I think that shows their position on the matter.
Quite clearly, I think the Israeli army has shown a million times more restraint than Hamas, as they damn sure ought to. We're bankrolling it. Hamas butchered people, and Israel and its goons have done it as well. It just gets sanitized in our media. You think dropping bombs and burying people under rubble isn't savage? I've seen the videos of the barbarities Hamas committed, and I've seen lifeless, crushed bodies get pulled out of rubble in Gaza, including women, including children, including the elderly. We ought to be opposed to this shit or not. If we're ok with it if it's not our people, we have to live with the consequences. That's what Hamas should learn. That's what Israel should learn.
Regarding the unborn child, that same accusation has been made in the past: https://www.france24.com/en/live-ne...orror-of-lebanon-s-sabra-and-shatila-massacre
I can't find fault in what you said above. I have nothing further to add on those points.
Regarding the Sabra/Shatilia massacre in Lebennon.... it's wild how a Google search turns up predominantly Muslim/Arab leaning news articles. It could well be the the Israelis and the West have done a great job of covering it up. While there's no denying the massacre took place, I'm skeptical of Israel's involvement or culpability.
Nevertheless, it's hard to imagine this kind of thing happening...ever, but especially in modern times.
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Well put. And unlike ISIS, Hamas is a large corporate like structure that brings in $1 Billion/year. Half of that from Iran, but they own mines and factories in other countries. We're not talking living in caves terrorists.
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anon_5e8aassgcbjz1
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Now we have 3 hostages mistakenly killed by the IDF after appearing shirtless (no suicide vest) and waving a white flag. What a shitshow. How many Palestinian "combatants" were killed under similar circumstances?
This comes after Israeli special forces tried and failed to recover a hostage soldier. Two were seriously wounded, and the hostage was killed.
If the goal is bringing these people home alive, you make a deal. Plain and simple.
This comes after Israeli special forces tried and failed to recover a hostage soldier. Two were seriously wounded, and the hostage was killed.
If the goal is bringing these people home alive, you make a deal. Plain and simple.
That's a big IF. I don't believe that freeing hostages is the primary objective of Israel this time. Destroying Hamas to whatever extent that is possible, is. Freeing hostages is secondary, preventing Palestinian non-combatant deaths a distant third (although I don't believe that the IDF is purposely trying to kill as many Palastinians as possible).
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anon_5e8aassgcbjz1
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It's clearly not the primary objective of the current government, but I'd be shocked if they didn't go back to negotiating in light of the latest episode.
Is the IDF purposely trying to kill as many Palestinians as possible? No, but I don't know if blatant apathy and a lack of accountability is much of a defense. This was far from the first time they've killed someone unarmed, in this case they shot people waving a white flag in their sight and calling for help in Hebrew. It caused the outrage that it did purely because they killed their own.
Here's a separate but related point: https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/isra...-attacks-by-israel-on-lebanese-army-positions
Israeli forces have hit the Lebanese army over 30 times. Not Hezbollah, the Lebanese army that the international community ideally wants to be in control of Lebanon. Is Gollant telling his commanders to hit the Lebanese army? I highly doubt it, but it's happening anyway and points to lax rules of engagement to say the least.
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Unarmed people getting shot sometimes happens. Too bad Hamas did what they did or none of this would be going down like it is. A close urban fight is extremely chaotic and very lethal. I don't have first hand knowledge but i'm assuming that the IDF has a permissive ROE especially at the small unit level. In a densely populated urban environment, fighting an enemy that is not easily identified, it's going to happen a lot .
I'd be surprised if they did negotiate just because of this. Its unfortunate that those hostages were shot, but i don't see it changing anything.
I want to make it clear that if my family or I were a hostage I woukd definitely have a different agenda
That said let’s consider the Taliban takover of Afghanistan as the US pulled out
That decision created millions of hostages in that country.
We just don’t consider them hostages but those folks are subject to same brutality as Hamas hostages.
So with that stated I will say that negotiating for hostage release generally only creates a worse long term situation
But I think we the IDF and US must try
Just a really sucking situation
My belief is we will probably lose all of tge remaining hostages
Israel has to eradicate every Hamas fighter in GAZA it can find
Like I say I don’t know the exact right answer but pray we get as many out as possible
That said let’s consider the Taliban takover of Afghanistan as the US pulled out
That decision created millions of hostages in that country.
We just don’t consider them hostages but those folks are subject to same brutality as Hamas hostages.
So with that stated I will say that negotiating for hostage release generally only creates a worse long term situation
But I think we the IDF and US must try
Just a really sucking situation
My belief is we will probably lose all of tge remaining hostages
Israel has to eradicate every Hamas fighter in GAZA it can find
Like I say I don’t know the exact right answer but pray we get as many out as possible
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anon_5e8aassgcbjz1
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The IDF doesn't get the benefit of the doubt when I can post video after video after video of them executing unarmed people in the West Bank. And you're right, these things happen a lot when you're in the business of occupying people whose lives you deem considerably less valuable than your own.
1,000 Jews dead was a catastrophe. 10,000 Palestinians dead and counting gets you a shrug of the shoulders. They'll bring the media and foreign officials in to show them what Hamas did. Do they show the aftermath of what a half ton of explosives and a building's worth of cement do to human bodies?
I'll support Israel being a safe place for Jewish people. What I won't support is Israel being a fundamentally racist, occupying power that won't stop until it squeezes the Palestinians out at the expense of the US's moral standing and wallet.
Absolutely I'm shrugging my shoulders. Just like I did when I watched crowds of people in Gaza in the street rejoicing and dancing following the Terrorist attack on the US on 9/11. Or when Hamas received support of the people of Gaza in 2007. Or in the interim years when watching women celebrating and receiving monetary payments when their kids become suicide bombers/attackers within Israel after being indoctrinated in school and at home to hate an kill Jews (in a non-racist way, of course).
