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Columbia Going to Remote Learning for Remainder of Year

I actually agree with this. College students are always protesting about some shit or another. It's what they do. I'd be willing to be that the jewish professor was banned for something else besides being a Jew, I'd like to see what he was banned for. But your point is well taken...

Protestors have the right to protest. I'm OK with that even if I don't agree. But they DON'T have the right to stop people from getting on campus, disrupting campus, or threatening/harming anyone. Time for the police to arrive and smack a few protesters down or use some crowd control methods to get these folks settled down. I'm sure a few of them will act against the police... I've no problem with THEM being settled down by way of the emergency room on their way to prison.
Having read different accounts and listened to Shai Davidi’s account of what happened, it seems like another case of leftist student and protesters using threats of violence to intimidate police and administrations into “protecting” the objects of protests, or counter-protestors, by actually barring them from the places they’d normally be able to be.

In this case, the Jewish professor has been a leader of counter-protests on campus, and has highlighted Students for Justice in Palestine’s pro-Hamas stance, as well as the pro-terrorist stance of many of their associates they’ve brought to campus. He was activated when it was brought to his attention that the Palestianian group celebrated the October 7 attacks as “resistance” on October 8, and began protesting Israel while Israel was still defensively fighting terrorists inside of Israel. Davidi has also highlighted some of the more extreme statements and signs the protesters/rioters have made, as well as the fact that Palestianians raped Israelis when they attacked. For that, the Palestinian students have complained that he made “racist” statements.

So, in that context, he decided that he would go to the pro-Hamas illegal encampment at Columbia and show that a Jewish professor wasn’t safe there. Campus administrators tried to tell him to go to another space for counter-protestors, but that wouldn’t have allowed him to make his point that a place he’d normally be able to freely go wasn’t safe. When he showed up, he was barred from entering because the university was trying to avoid a scene.

Was he being provocative and dramatic? Sure. Was his point that the illegal encampment is causing problems for Jews on campus correct? Manifestly.
 
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Yes or no question for you. A simple yes or no will suffice.

Is he saying that having a swastika in your avatar is free speech?
Just to be clear, I was indeed saying it was free speech - which you seem to agree with based on the below post.

Just bc I think it's free speech, doesn't mean I agree with it. There are volumes of free speech I disagree with. However, I understand you think things you don't agree with should not be allowed.
Both the implications of a swastika symbol and death to America slogans are disgusting, but both should be allowed free speech. Neither should be supported, imo.
We actually agree on something. Got to be a first.
 
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Just to be clear, I was indeed saying it was free speech - which you seem to agree with based on the below post.

Just bc I think it's free speech, doesn't mean I agree with it. There are volumes of free speech I disagree with. However, I understand you think things you don't agree with should not be allowed.
Both the implications of a swastika symbol and death to America slogans are disgusting, but both should be allowed free speech. Neither should be supported, imo.

Oh I believe it was "free speech". That was not the point. The only people who called out that poster for being a shithead were "leftwing". I am tired of the implications in this thread that the "left" is antisemitic b/c of what some college kids are doing.

If some shithead handed me a pamphlet saying "death to America" I would call them out also.
 
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It’s the kind of “history” where someone searches for quotes suggesting support for their agenda, and then uses them as proof of an overall narrative that isn’t consistent with general the general behavior of the actors. This starts with ignoring the context of changing borders after WW2, and of the argument for Zionism at the time (and, looking at what’s been going on over the last year, those arguments still seem to hold), and progresses into ignorance of Jewish history in Israel, Jewish immigration to Israel, the contested nature of Palestine throughout its post-Roman history (and its Roman history), and of the Jewish presence in Israel throughout. It also ignores that early Palestinian nationalist sentiment was led by people like Amin Al-Husseini who wanted to collaborate with Hitler to exterminate the Jews.

Deir Yassin involved the Irgun going overboard in response to being shot at by Arabs in the village, and it was reprehensible. But it also was within the context of a war, and frankly what happened wasn’t as unusual as Israel and other western country’s general moral approach to war. And yet, despite the many Arab atrocities in that war and since then, Deir Yassin is treated as emblematic of Arabs’ grievance against Israel.

This isn’t to say that Arabs can’t make some sort of claim to Israel and Palestine, but that if we don’t think the long Jewish history in Palestine gives Jews a stronger claim to the land than Arabs because of the Arab seizure of Palestine from the Greeks and Crusaders, or because Muslim Ottomans ruled Palestine more recently, or if we think there’s an equality between those claims, then that doesn’t only undercut the historical legitimacy of Israel- it also undercuts all claims of definitive historical claims to the land. Setting aside the fact that there was no (or no significant) Palestianian Arab nationalism except in reaction to Zionism, and setting aside that zionists largely bought Arab land which was sold freely before the Arabs attacked Israel in 1948, acknowledgment of competing historical claims with similar legitimacy basically resets the clock and forces us to ask whose claims and actions have been more legitimate since 1948. And since that time, it’s been Israel that has acted responsibly and Arabs who’ve resorted to invasion and terror, while rejecting peaceful national settlement. In the most amoral terms, Israel has also been strongest and able to set up a parliamentary liberal democracy surrounded by illiberal states, while it appears that the most legitimate government of Palestianians is currently unsupported (in favor of a terrorist party). In other words, bracketing historical claims, if Palestinians are justified in their violent resistance to Israel, then Israel is also justified in its violent response. We can only really ask who is currently behaving most responsibly.
I also think something that gets ignored often in the framing of Israel and the post war era is how you had leadership that survived the holocaust and saw their parents, grandparents, and siblings killed in unfathomable numbers while the world responded tepidly (in their minds). That isn’t an excuse for certain events or things that unfolded. Israel is not lily white and blameless throughout the history of their nation. It is - however - an important factor in framing why some of those guys were hard as hell and why they treated conflict and outright hostility as existential threats - a view that survives at an almost cultural level still.
 
Oh I believe it was "free speech". That was not the point. The only people who called out that poster for being a shithead were "leftwing". I am tired of the implications in this thread that the "left" is antisemitic b/c of what some college kids are doing.

If some shithead handed me a pamphlet saying "death to America" I would call them out also.
Yet we are 4 pages into this thread and I have yet to see you call out the protestors supporting this or similar messages? You are simply not an honest person.
 
Yet we are 4 pages into this thread and I have yet to see you call out the protestors supporting this or similar messages? You are simply not an honest person.
His first post ITT was halfway through page 3, so technically if this was a fresh thread this comment would be on the first page.

@nytigerfan next time you enter a thread, make sure you explicitly state that you condemn "Death to America" statements please, thank you.
 
Yet we are 4 pages into this thread and I have yet to see you call out the protestors supporting this or similar messages? You are simply not an honest person.

I, NyTigerfan, being of sound mind and body, willfully and voluntarily make known that I hereby denounce the students on the Michigan campus who printed and distributed a pamphlet that read "Death to America". I am calling on all protestors to remove such verbiage from their pamphlets immediately, or face immediate retribution from anonymous posters on a message board for a different South Carolina based university's sports teams.

Please proceed with your normal activities.
 
His first post ITT was halfway through page 3, so technically if this was a fresh thread this comment would be on the first page.

@nytigerfan next time you enter a thread, make sure you explicitly state that you condemn "Death to America" statements please, thank you.
He posted 8 times in the thread without doing so while specifically condemning someone else. Is eight posts not enough opportunity to condemn the actions/events specifically being discussed in the thread?
 
I, NyTigerfan, being of sound mind and body, willfully and voluntarily make known that I hereby denounce the students on the Michigan campus who printed and distributed a pamphlet that read "Death to America". I am calling on all protestors to remove such verbiage from their pamphlets immediately, or face immediate retribution from anonymous posters on a message board for a different South Carolina based university's sports teams.

Please proceed with your normal activities.
Glad you can make light of anti-Semitic behavior and people calling for the death of others. Not very surprising, though.
 
He posted 8 times in the thread without doing so while specifically condemning someone else. Is eight posts not enough opportunity to condemn the actions/events specifically being discussed in the thread?
3 pages of conversation went by (you posted on page 1) in this thread before you said you condemned Death to America speech.

Is 3 pages of conversation not enough opportunity to condemn the actions/events specifically being discussed in this thread?

Do you see how stupid your argument is? It also seems like you weren't even planning on bringing it up until you decided to fingerwag someone. Who was being disingenuous again?
 
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It’s the kind of “history” where someone searches for quotes suggesting support for their agenda, and then uses them as proof of an overall narrative that isn’t consistent with general the general behavior of the actors. This starts with ignoring the context of changing borders after WW2, and of the argument for Zionism at the time (and, looking at what’s been going on over the last year, those arguments still seem to hold), and progresses into ignorance of Jewish history in Israel, Jewish immigration to Israel, the contested nature of Palestine throughout its post-Roman history (and its Roman history), and of the Jewish presence in Israel throughout. It also ignores that early Palestinian nationalist sentiment was led by people like Amin Al-Husseini who wanted to collaborate with Hitler to exterminate the Jews.

Deir Yassin involved the Irgun going overboard in response to being shot at by Arabs in the village, and it was reprehensible. But it also was within the context of a war, and frankly what happened wasn’t as unusual as Israel and other western country’s general moral approach to war. And yet, despite the many Arab atrocities in that war and since then, Deir Yassin is treated as emblematic of Arabs’ grievance against Israel.

This isn’t to say that Arabs can’t make some sort of claim to Israel and Palestine, but that if we don’t think the long Jewish history in Palestine gives Jews a stronger claim to the land than Arabs because of the Arab seizure of Palestine from the Greeks and Crusaders, or because Muslim Ottomans ruled Palestine more recently, or if we think there’s an equality between those claims, then that doesn’t only undercut the historical legitimacy of Israel- it also undercuts all claims of definitive historical claims to the land. Setting aside the fact that there was no (or no significant) Palestianian Arab nationalism except in reaction to Zionism, and setting aside that zionists largely bought Arab land which was sold freely before the Arabs attacked Israel in 1948, acknowledgment of competing historical claims with similar legitimacy basically resets the clock and forces us to ask whose claims and actions have been more legitimate since 1948. And since that time, it’s been Israel that has acted responsibly and Arabs who’ve resorted to invasion and terror, while rejecting peaceful national settlement. In the most amoral terms, Israel has also been strongest and able to set up a parliamentary liberal democracy surrounded by illiberal states, while it appears that the most legitimate government of Palestianians is currently unsupported (in favor of a terrorist party). In other words, bracketing historical claims, if Palestinians are justified in their violent resistance to Israel, then Israel is also justified in its violent response. We can only really ask who is currently behaving most responsibly.
What Ben Gurion said largely represents the course of action they pursued. Benny Morris, who I again think is a reasonable and fair historian, doesn't deny that. He asserts that the expulsion of the Arabs was a necessary alternative to a similar fate befalling the Jews. It's not an invention of progressives with an agenda, and it was a real tragedy to the Arabs. The prominence of al-Husseini in the Palestinian nationalist discourse is a very real reason to consider what Morris suggests seriously. I nevertheless don't think one should be lead to legitimize ethnic cleansing as a fair measure against a perceived fifth column. It doesn't have a place in the world the Geneva Conventions have aimed to build; WWII should have served as a warning to avoid the mass deportation of civilians that the UN partition brought about and Ben Gurion embraced unabashedly. As it concerns al-Husseini more directly, he was a virulent person who played a minimal role in the conflict after '48. His role in the Holocaust is downplayed by Yad Vasham itself.

Yes, I think there is every reason to respect Israeli civil society and prefer its government over the authoritarian regimes in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Syria, for example. I am more than happy to grant you that it is a liberal democracy surrounded by illiberal states. The picture is not so rosy when you consider the West Bank. Israel has no problem claiming that it legally falls under Israeli sovereignty: "Judea and Samaria" is unequivocally Israeli when it comes to the matter of, "Whose land is it?" Yet when it comes to the question of, "Are human rights equally respected in Israel?", the West Bank and its Arabs magically disappear from what is considered relevant to describing Israel. Israeli settlers in the West Bank receive the protections afforded to them by Israeli civilian law. Palestinians in the West Bank get hauled before Israeli military courts. Two different legal systems for two different groups of people under the authority of the same government. No bueno. Israeli military law permits the "adminstrative detention" of individuals who intend to break the law but have not yet done so. The accused doesn't receive a trial or access to the evidence held against him. Thousands of Palestinians have been held and are by Israel under that authority, which is sparingly applied against Israeli settlers (not for lack of reason). Are those the actions of a liberal democracy? The good intention of the Oslo Accords, where the PLO did indeed recognize Israel without the Palestinians receiving a state of their own, has been utterly lost. Israel does what it wants in the West Bank, and the Palestinians are told to deal with it without recourse. Don't like Israel expanding its settlements in the West Bank and building new ones? Tough luck, the US State Department and international community will largely agree with you, but the issue should be arbitrated with your occupier. Want a state? Just make peace with Netanyahu and Israel, never mind the fact that he's caterogically opposed to the idea. Barak gave you an offer you had to accept despite legitimate reservations, and now you're destined to remain under indefinite occupation. The Palestinians could drop every gun, every knife, every ounce of militancy they have, and Israel wouldn't resolve the whole problem by granting the Palestinians citizenship. It can't. There's an inherent limit to the extent that Israel can remain a Jewish state and one committed to democracy.

To a offer a defense of Israel, many of its actions are justified by security concerns to one degree or another. Does the IDF have a moral license to shoot American journalists or Palestinian civilians, stand around idly while Israeli settlers harass Palestinian farmers and destroy their property, or abuse Palestinian detainees? It does not. It has every right on the other hand to make sure that someone can get on a bus in Tel Aviv without fear of a suicide bombing. In that regard I understand the construction of the security barrier even if the exact route it takes leaves some room for complaint. It can't allow Askhelon to be terrorized by rockets. It couldn't allow Hamas to slaughter a thousand civilians unchecked. I understand a forceful military response to that which must still abide by international law. Israel will say that it does, but in the off chance it doesn't, international law shouldn't constrain its actions anyway. They won't be lectured to, so to speak. Did anyone lecture America after 9/11, for example? If someone did, we probably should have listened more closely. We suffered a tragedy, and we started a war in Iraq (Israeli intelligence certainly didn't discourage us) that left hundreds of thousands of people dead without securing any long term gain. We now want to express selective concern about civilian life. I think Israel is going down the same path.

So why does Israel merit the scrutiny and criticism it does from me? After all, there are absolutely worse countries, and they don't get the heat. Firstly, I don't shy away from criticism of those countries either. Saudi Arabia is a theocratic hellscape lead by a sociopath where you can get executed for a tweet. The Egyptian government is secular but dominated by a military dictatorship with a dubious human rights record. The Gulf States are modern-day slavers that along with Saudi Arabia have exported Wahhabism. Iran is another theocratic hellscape that wants nuclear weapons (rational for them, bad for us). I don't want US foreign policy to be dictated by placating those scumbags, and I similarly don't want US foreign policy to be religiously attached to the defense of Israel. It can't be the case that no matter what Israel does, the money and guns keep flowing. But you see it time and time again. American support of Israel is "unconditional," "steadfast," etc. Secondly, even if we're going to operate purely out of concern for realpolitik, i.e. we support Israel because they give us something in return, that has its limits as well. We can't have Biden say in regard to Russia's actions in Ukraine, "Yes, I called it genocide. It has become clearer and clearer that Putin is just trying to wipe out the idea of even being — being able to be Ukrainian" and cover our ears when the Israeli right makes a concerted effort to label Palestine and its nationhood as an invention. We can't have John Kirby cry at a press conference when Ukrainian kids die only to have him shrug off civilian deaths in Gaza as part of war. We can't lecture the Chinese about Xinjiang and support Israel's actions in the West Bank. Our hypocrisy on Israel-Palestine hurts our image and gradually our influence elsewhere. There's no American interest to be had in being seen as a party to genocide or apartheid. If we want the situation to change, our pressure has to be on Israel. That's the only party here we have a direct influence on, and it's indeed the party that has the most control over situation in the West Bank and Gaza.
 
Oh I believe it was "free speech". That was not the point. The only people who called out that poster for being a shithead were "leftwing". I am tired of the implications in this thread that the "left" is antisemitic b/c of what some college kids are doing.

If some shithead handed me a pamphlet saying "death to America" I would call them out also.
You align yourself with people who agree with what you believe in.

It's kinda like a bank robbery where you were the "get away driver".

You didn't know they were gonna kill that person, but you were in the car.

I'm truly sick of you f@cks.

Excuse for everything.
 
What Ben Gurion said largely represents the course of action they pursued. Benny Morris, who I again think is a reasonable and fair historian, doesn't deny that. He asserts that the expulsion of the Arabs was a necessary alternative to a similar fate befalling the Jews. It's not an invention of progressives with an agenda, and it was a real tragedy to the Arabs. The prominence of al-Husseini in the Palestinian nationalist discourse is a very real reason to consider what Morris suggests seriously. I nevertheless don't think one should be lead to legitimize ethnic cleansing as a fair measure against a perceived fifth column. It doesn't have a place in the world the Geneva Conventions have aimed to build; WWII should have served as a warning to avoid the mass deportation of civilians that the UN partition brought about and Ben Gurion embraced unabashedly. As it concerns al-Husseini more directly, he was a virulent person who played a minimal role in the conflict after '48. His role in the Holocaust is downplayed by Yad Vasham itself.

Yes, I think there is every reason to respect Israeli civil society and prefer its government over the authoritarian regimes in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Syria, for example. I am more than happy to grant you that it is a liberal democracy surrounded by illiberal states. The picture is not so rosy when you consider the West Bank. Israel has no problem claiming that it legally falls under Israeli sovereignty: "Judea and Samaria" is unequivocally Israeli when it comes to the matter of, "Whose land is it?" Yet when it comes to the question of, "Are human rights equally respected in Israel?", the West Bank and its Arabs magically disappear from what is considered relevant to describing Israel. Israeli settlers in the West Bank receive the protections afforded to them by Israeli civilian law. Palestinians in the West Bank get hauled before Israeli military courts. Two different legal systems for two different groups of people under the authority of the same government. No bueno. Israeli military law permits the "adminstrative detention" of individuals who intend to break the law but have not yet done so. The accused doesn't receive a trial or access to the evidence held against him. Thousands of Palestinians have been held and are by Israel under that authority, which is sparingly applied against Israeli settlers (not for lack of reason). Are those the actions of a liberal democracy? The good intention of the Oslo Accords, where the PLO did indeed recognize Israel without the Palestinians receiving a state of their own, has been utterly lost. Israel does what it wants in the West Bank, and the Palestinians are told to deal with it without recourse. Don't like Israel expanding its settlements in the West Bank and building new ones? Tough luck, the US State Department and international community will largely agree with you, but the issue should be arbitrated with your occupier. Want a state? Just make peace with Netanyahu and Israel, never mind the fact that he's caterogically opposed to the idea. Barak gave you an offer you had to accept despite legitimate reservations, and now you're destined to remain under indefinite occupation. The Palestinians could drop every gun, every knife, every ounce of militancy they have, and Israel wouldn't resolve the whole problem by granting the Palestinians citizenship. It can't. There's an inherent limit to the extent that Israel can remain a Jewish state and one committed to democracy.

To a offer a defense of Israel, many of its actions are justified by security concerns to one degree or another. Does the IDF have a moral license to shoot American journalists or Palestinian civilians, stand around idly while Israeli settlers harass Palestinian farmers and destroy their property, or abuse Palestinian detainees? It does not. It has every right on the other hand to make sure that someone can get on a bus in Tel Aviv without fear of a suicide bombing. In that regard I understand the construction of the security barrier even if the exact route it takes leaves some room for complaint. It can't allow Askhelon to be terrorized by rockets. It couldn't allow Hamas to slaughter a thousand civilians unchecked. I understand a forceful military response to that which must still abide by international law. Israel will say that it does, but in the off chance it doesn't, international law shouldn't constrain its actions anyway. They won't be lectured to, so to speak. Did anyone lecture America after 9/11, for example? If someone did, we probably should have listened more closely. We suffered a tragedy, and we started a war in Iraq (Israeli intelligence certainly didn't discourage us) that left hundreds of thousands of people dead without securing any long term gain. We now want to express selective concern about civilian life. I think Israel is going down the same path.

So why does Israel merit the scrutiny and criticism it does from me? After all, there are absolutely worse countries, and they don't get the heat. Firstly, I don't shy away from criticism of those countries either. Saudi Arabia is a theocratic hellscape lead by a sociopath where you can get executed for a tweet. The Egyptian government is secular but dominated by a military dictatorship with a dubious human rights record. The Gulf States are modern-day slavers that along with Saudi Arabia have exported Wahhabism. Iran is another theocratic hellscape that wants nuclear weapons (rational for them, bad for us). I don't want US foreign policy to be dictated by placating those scumbags, and I similarly don't want US foreign policy to be religiously attached to the defense of Israel. It can't be the case that no matter what Israel does, the money and guns keep flowing. But you see it time and time again. American support of Israel is "unconditional," "steadfast," etc. Secondly, even if we're going to operate purely out of concern for realpolitik, i.e. we support Israel because they give us something in return, that has its limits as well. We can't have Biden say in regard to Russia's actions in Ukraine, "Yes, I called it genocide. It has become clearer and clearer that Putin is just trying to wipe out the idea of even being — being able to be Ukrainian" and cover our ears when the Israeli right makes a concerted effort to label Palestine and its nationhood as an invention. We can't have John Kirby cry at a press conference when Ukrainian kids die only to have him shrug off civilian deaths in Gaza as part of war. We can't lecture the Chinese about Xinjiang and support Israel's actions in the West Bank. Our hypocrisy on Israel-Palestine hurts our image and gradually our influence elsewhere. There's no American interest to be had in being seen as a party to genocide or apartheid. If we want the situation to change, our pressure has to be on Israel. That's the only party here we have a direct influence on, and it's indeed the party that has the most control over situation in the West Bank and Gaza.

LOL at your last paragraph. Ukraine is a sovereign nation and Hamas is a terrorist organization. What you're trying to say there makes not one lick of sense. You can't say stuff like that and be as educated as you obviously are....it makes me worry that something is wrong with you.
 
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You align yourself with people who agree with what you believe in.

It's kinda like a bank robbery where you were the "get away driver".

You didn't know they were gonna kill that person, but you were in the car.

I'm truly sick of you f@cks.

Excuse for everything.

And I truly don’t think about you at all.
 
What Ben Gurion said largely represents the course of action they pursued. Benny Morris, who I again think is a reasonable and fair historian, doesn't deny that. He asserts that the expulsion of the Arabs was a necessary alternative to a similar fate befalling the Jews. It's not an invention of progressives with an agenda, and it was a real tragedy to the Arabs. The prominence of al-Husseini in the Palestinian nationalist discourse is a very real reason to consider what Morris suggests seriously. I nevertheless don't think one should be lead to legitimize ethnic cleansing as a fair measure against a perceived fifth column. It doesn't have a place in the world the Geneva Conventions have aimed to build; WWII should have served as a warning to avoid the mass deportation of civilians that the UN partition brought about and Ben Gurion embraced unabashedly. As it concerns al-Husseini more directly, he was a virulent person who played a minimal role in the conflict after '48. His role in the Holocaust is downplayed by Yad Vasham itself.

Yes, I think there is every reason to respect Israeli civil society and prefer its government over the authoritarian regimes in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Syria, for example. I am more than happy to grant you that it is a liberal democracy surrounded by illiberal states. The picture is not so rosy when you consider the West Bank. Israel has no problem claiming that it legally falls under Israeli sovereignty: "Judea and Samaria" is unequivocally Israeli when it comes to the matter of, "Whose land is it?" Yet when it comes to the question of, "Are human rights equally respected in Israel?", the West Bank and its Arabs magically disappear from what is considered relevant to describing Israel. Israeli settlers in the West Bank receive the protections afforded to them by Israeli civilian law. Palestinians in the West Bank get hauled before Israeli military courts. Two different legal systems for two different groups of people under the authority of the same government. No bueno. Israeli military law permits the "adminstrative detention" of individuals who intend to break the law but have not yet done so. The accused doesn't receive a trial or access to the evidence held against him. Thousands of Palestinians have been held and are by Israel under that authority, which is sparingly applied against Israeli settlers (not for lack of reason). Are those the actions of a liberal democracy? The good intention of the Oslo Accords, where the PLO did indeed recognize Israel without the Palestinians receiving a state of their own, has been utterly lost. Israel does what it wants in the West Bank, and the Palestinians are told to deal with it without recourse. Don't like Israel expanding its settlements in the West Bank and building new ones? Tough luck, the US State Department and international community will largely agree with you, but the issue should be arbitrated with your occupier. Want a state? Just make peace with Netanyahu and Israel, never mind the fact that he's caterogically opposed to the idea. Barak gave you an offer you had to accept despite legitimate reservations, and now you're destined to remain under indefinite occupation. The Palestinians could drop every gun, every knife, every ounce of militancy they have, and Israel wouldn't resolve the whole problem by granting the Palestinians citizenship. It can't. There's an inherent limit to the extent that Israel can remain a Jewish state and one committed to democracy.

To a offer a defense of Israel, many of its actions are justified by security concerns to one degree or another. Does the IDF have a moral license to shoot American journalists or Palestinian civilians, stand around idly while Israeli settlers harass Palestinian farmers and destroy their property, or abuse Palestinian detainees? It does not. It has every right on the other hand to make sure that someone can get on a bus in Tel Aviv without fear of a suicide bombing. In that regard I understand the construction of the security barrier even if the exact route it takes leaves some room for complaint. It can't allow Askhelon to be terrorized by rockets. It couldn't allow Hamas to slaughter a thousand civilians unchecked. I understand a forceful military response to that which must still abide by international law. Israel will say that it does, but in the off chance it doesn't, international law shouldn't constrain its actions anyway. They won't be lectured to, so to speak. Did anyone lecture America after 9/11, for example? If someone did, we probably should have listened more closely. We suffered a tragedy, and we started a war in Iraq (Israeli intelligence certainly didn't discourage us) that left hundreds of thousands of people dead without securing any long term gain. We now want to express selective concern about civilian life. I think Israel is going down the same path.

So why does Israel merit the scrutiny and criticism it does from me? After all, there are absolutely worse countries, and they don't get the heat. Firstly, I don't shy away from criticism of those countries either. Saudi Arabia is a theocratic hellscape lead by a sociopath where you can get executed for a tweet. The Egyptian government is secular but dominated by a military dictatorship with a dubious human rights record. The Gulf States are modern-day slavers that along with Saudi Arabia have exported Wahhabism. Iran is another theocratic hellscape that wants nuclear weapons (rational for them, bad for us). I don't want US foreign policy to be dictated by placating those scumbags, and I similarly don't want US foreign policy to be religiously attached to the defense of Israel. It can't be the case that no matter what Israel does, the money and guns keep flowing. But you see it time and time again. American support of Israel is "unconditional," "steadfast," etc. Secondly, even if we're going to operate purely out of concern for realpolitik, i.e. we support Israel because they give us something in return, that has its limits as well. We can't have Biden say in regard to Russia's actions in Ukraine, "Yes, I called it genocide. It has become clearer and clearer that Putin is just trying to wipe out the idea of even being — being able to be Ukrainian" and cover our ears when the Israeli right makes a concerted effort to label Palestine and its nationhood as an invention. We can't have John Kirby cry at a press conference when Ukrainian kids die only to have him shrug off civilian deaths in Gaza as part of war. We can't lecture the Chinese about Xinjiang and support Israel's actions in the West Bank. Our hypocrisy on Israel-Palestine hurts our image and gradually our influence elsewhere. There's no American interest to be had in being seen as a party to genocide or apartheid. If we want the situation to change, our pressure has to be on Israel. That's the only party here we have a direct influence on, and it's indeed the party that has the most control over situation in the West Bank and Gaza.
Now do Amin Al-Husseini….and the….*checks notes*…..Nazis.
 
It also ostensibly mischaracterizes people’s positions using out of context quotes and ignores some important factors including historical context. Odd coming from @LaniKaiTiger who is clearly knowledgeable and well-educated (history professor if I’m recalling correctly?).
thankfully no, I’d rather be bad at something else
 
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