Are there not any people who can agree that guns need to be regulated more vigorously.
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Is there room for moderates in this country?
- Thread starter BrianWilliamsNBC
- Start date
the real problem is people keep voting for the right and left.
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No, there literally isn’t any room for moderates with the current way our political 2 party system is set up. Trump accidentally made a great point during the debates in 2020, that even if Biden says he doesn’t personally support the policy Ideas that the far left wing of the Democratic party supports, a vote for Biden is essentially still a vote for those policies because it grants more power to those who DO actively support them.
The same is true on the other side. If you vote for a Republican for President or a Republican for Senate or Congress, even if that individual candidate is “moderate” and doesn’t seem to support the extreme rhetoric, on the right wing a vote for them is ultimately a vote for Marjorie Green Taylor and the others, as broader Republican power ultimately gives them more power. The congressional representative in your individual district may support common sense gun control measures, but a vote for him or her is ultimately still granting power to the party that, at large, doesn’t support any gun control whatsoever.
The parties have always been “big tent” and have always kind of gobbled up smaller parties with popular ideas among small but important chunks of voters. The Democrats sort of overtook the Green Party after Ralph Nader and company took a chunk of their votes in 2000 and 2004. This neutralized that party’s growth and brought more votes back into the fold for the Democrats, but required them to move further left particularly on climate issues. This also happened after the 2016 election, which saw Sanders supporters (who is really a Democrat in name only) force the Democrats to move left again on economic issues to appease them.
Same can be said for Republicans taking on more Libertarian ideas, and more recently, more nationalist socialist ideas forced upon the party by Trump and his powerful wing of support.
So the Parties have gotten much bigger and, as is always the case, the most extreme members are the loudest and most powerful. Even moderate minded Dems and Republicans have to appease the extreme wings of their parties in order to get anything accomplished. I believe this to be more true on the Republican side, primarily because extreme conservatives take virtually any disloyalty to the party at all as a sign of liberal corruption. This goes to the point where it‘s virtually political suicide for any Republican to dare say anything negative about Trump or even semi-agree that the Jan 6th coup attempt might have been a bad thing.
In the past, moderates and more extremists having to appease each other wasn’t really such a bad thing Simply because the extremes were still within a reasonable realm of governance. Fringe politicians were just that, fringe, and they really couldn’t get elected on to any significant level. That has changed as the parties have had to open the arms wider and wider to pull in voters who, themselves, have become more extreme. The echo chambers of social media and 24 hour news have exacerbated this issue and made the extremes grow at a rate that the parties can’t keep up.
This has created a vacuum where Ron DeSantis is now seen as a moderate figure in the Republican party, whereas just as recently as 10-12 years ago he would have rightly been viewed as a conservative extremist. He falls very far to the right of Regan, GHWB, Dole, GWB, and Romney. Its hard to say if he’s really less right wing than Trump because Trump can jump from left to right on various issues depending on which will make him more popular.
”loyalty to the party” is, of course, code for Fascism. Both of the big tent parties have been drifting in that direction, although as I’ve already stated I believe that tendency is stronger on the right (after all, Fascism is a right wing ideology in the first place) but you do see it even with someone like Sanders, who attempts to be independent but is ultimately forced to join the party when he wants to run for President because he needs the resources.
Eventually, its probable that a third centrist party will emerge that is made up center left and center right politicians and Has enough popularity within the electorate to chop down some of the power extremists have been able to cultivate over the last couple of decades since 9/11. I think the challenge here, however, is that many centrist politicians don’t actually mind the extremists because it helps them stay in power and accomplish what they want To.
Someone like Mitch McConnell doesn’t really seem to care all that much for the Trump wing of the party, yet he knows they’re an asset to him because they can help him accomplish the more traditional Republican goals that he has, and he simply doesn’t care about the damage they may do in the future, primarily because it won’t largely affect him personally. So until more centrist politicians lose some of their own self interest and are willing to take the risk to abandon their party’s politics, the extreme wings will continue to grow and gain more strength.
Many of us thought the Jan. 6th incident was a moment of significant change, and would be a turning point away from extremism, but that obviously didn’t pan out. If anything, it only further intrenched extremism.
I’ve stated this many times, but ultimately the era of post-truthism we are currently drifting into will most likely be the undoing of America’s democracy. Its very difficult to uphold a free society when its most powerful institutions can’t agree on the simple basis of what truth is.
The same is true on the other side. If you vote for a Republican for President or a Republican for Senate or Congress, even if that individual candidate is “moderate” and doesn’t seem to support the extreme rhetoric, on the right wing a vote for them is ultimately a vote for Marjorie Green Taylor and the others, as broader Republican power ultimately gives them more power. The congressional representative in your individual district may support common sense gun control measures, but a vote for him or her is ultimately still granting power to the party that, at large, doesn’t support any gun control whatsoever.
The parties have always been “big tent” and have always kind of gobbled up smaller parties with popular ideas among small but important chunks of voters. The Democrats sort of overtook the Green Party after Ralph Nader and company took a chunk of their votes in 2000 and 2004. This neutralized that party’s growth and brought more votes back into the fold for the Democrats, but required them to move further left particularly on climate issues. This also happened after the 2016 election, which saw Sanders supporters (who is really a Democrat in name only) force the Democrats to move left again on economic issues to appease them.
Same can be said for Republicans taking on more Libertarian ideas, and more recently, more nationalist socialist ideas forced upon the party by Trump and his powerful wing of support.
So the Parties have gotten much bigger and, as is always the case, the most extreme members are the loudest and most powerful. Even moderate minded Dems and Republicans have to appease the extreme wings of their parties in order to get anything accomplished. I believe this to be more true on the Republican side, primarily because extreme conservatives take virtually any disloyalty to the party at all as a sign of liberal corruption. This goes to the point where it‘s virtually political suicide for any Republican to dare say anything negative about Trump or even semi-agree that the Jan 6th coup attempt might have been a bad thing.
In the past, moderates and more extremists having to appease each other wasn’t really such a bad thing Simply because the extremes were still within a reasonable realm of governance. Fringe politicians were just that, fringe, and they really couldn’t get elected on to any significant level. That has changed as the parties have had to open the arms wider and wider to pull in voters who, themselves, have become more extreme. The echo chambers of social media and 24 hour news have exacerbated this issue and made the extremes grow at a rate that the parties can’t keep up.
This has created a vacuum where Ron DeSantis is now seen as a moderate figure in the Republican party, whereas just as recently as 10-12 years ago he would have rightly been viewed as a conservative extremist. He falls very far to the right of Regan, GHWB, Dole, GWB, and Romney. Its hard to say if he’s really less right wing than Trump because Trump can jump from left to right on various issues depending on which will make him more popular.
”loyalty to the party” is, of course, code for Fascism. Both of the big tent parties have been drifting in that direction, although as I’ve already stated I believe that tendency is stronger on the right (after all, Fascism is a right wing ideology in the first place) but you do see it even with someone like Sanders, who attempts to be independent but is ultimately forced to join the party when he wants to run for President because he needs the resources.
Eventually, its probable that a third centrist party will emerge that is made up center left and center right politicians and Has enough popularity within the electorate to chop down some of the power extremists have been able to cultivate over the last couple of decades since 9/11. I think the challenge here, however, is that many centrist politicians don’t actually mind the extremists because it helps them stay in power and accomplish what they want To.
Someone like Mitch McConnell doesn’t really seem to care all that much for the Trump wing of the party, yet he knows they’re an asset to him because they can help him accomplish the more traditional Republican goals that he has, and he simply doesn’t care about the damage they may do in the future, primarily because it won’t largely affect him personally. So until more centrist politicians lose some of their own self interest and are willing to take the risk to abandon their party’s politics, the extreme wings will continue to grow and gain more strength.
Many of us thought the Jan. 6th incident was a moment of significant change, and would be a turning point away from extremism, but that obviously didn’t pan out. If anything, it only further intrenched extremism.
I’ve stated this many times, but ultimately the era of post-truthism we are currently drifting into will most likely be the undoing of America’s democracy. Its very difficult to uphold a free society when its most powerful institutions can’t agree on the simple basis of what truth is.
There is not a lot of room in the middle these days and as always there is still right and wrong. Trump is not a politician. I go to sleep at night strongly feeling that my viewpoints are mostly right and that Trump has a far superior plan to run the nation correctly compared to the alternatives. We are in a soft information war already. Globalist operatives not beholden to our people or the constitution have taken over most of the levers of power at this time. We are an occupied and operationally defeated nation at this time. The globalists are grinding us down into hamburger on a daily basis.
The ultimate goal is radical transformation of US society into a socialist state with lesser rights and freedoms imo with China supplanting the US as the leader of the world.
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we tried this. he converted on about 2% of his promises. what will be different this time?
Go ahead and tell us what you believe then since you apparently have it all figured out.
I forget who it was recently I was watching and said until you've run a business and had to meet a payroll you shouldn't be able to run for poltical office.
Too many career polticians like Biden, Bush, etc no matter what side of the aisle they stand. Term limits would solve a lot but no way people like AOC, etc would vote to allow that. Many in congress go in broke and leave millionaires, even after the first term.
Too many career polticians like Biden, Bush, etc no matter what side of the aisle they stand. Term limits would solve a lot but no way people like AOC, etc would vote to allow that. Many in congress go in broke and leave millionaires, even after the first term.
Sorry, not trying to be a d*ck here but what makes you better? You voted for a man that didn't even campaign......
A
anon_5e8aassgcbjz1
Guest
Believe it or not, you can be an intelligent and competent person without owning a business. Government isn't a corporation, and it shouldn't be run like one. The last administration is proof
I haven't met a politician yet that gave a damn about the people they were elected to serve, every one of them is an egomaniac that only sees dollar signs and their name in lights.
And non of them are competent and barely intelligent despite them telling you they are, look at Trump and especially Biden who stated he graduated at the top of his class only to be found he was actually at the bottom. Lol
Most people are moderate. But the far left/right control the media and Hollywood. The authoritarians run everything and drown out the moderate voices on both sides....
Big statement! You need to continue with proof of that. No lies or hyperbole, just facts.
To address your last sentence, since I shake my head over this all the time, any rational and well-meaning person knows the truth in almost all situations. It isn't difficult to see or understand. Lies and deceit come from those who want to manipulate and mold the public into followers and not thinkers. Repeating the lies enough, by enough influential leaders, turns lies to "truth" for many who want to jump on the bandwagon without being rational and using common sense (lies and deceit). Complicating the issue, we have been "educated" to believe that America is bad and undeserving of its greatness. Unfortunately, this is now truth to a vast segment of our society, so we begin examining all issues from diametrically opposite points of view. Truth is still there and hasn't changed, but too many of us are viewing it through distorted lenses. Both sides actually believe they are rational and well-meaning.
Truth, and those that want that don't deserve to be called Americans.
On this we totally agree we the people keep electing the people who oppress the American people
Every election we seem to get worse people running for high office
We need more Greek Democracy and less Republican Democracy
The thing that makes all this work is the idea that the other side is the evil creature from the swamp. Politically speaking that may be true but in terms of people in this country it isn't at all true. This is also the fruit of gerrymandering which is given us more and more radical candidates. Right now the single best thing we can do for our country would be to undo all the gerrymandering and have competitive districts in every state.
In the coming years we'll see the results of this because there are less and less competitive house districts now. So the majorities will be relatively small in most cases because they can't get larger. That's the underreported story from this last cycle that impacted the supposed red wave.
When you add all that to the fact that we've never seen a more ignorant populace in terms of what the role of government is and the ideas and meanings behind our Constitution; you have a recipe for disaster. We're seeing the fruits of all that now and it's really ugly. One of the really ironic things to me is that people get so bothered by the cult of Trump without realizing that they're in a cause of their own. There are several people like that who are on this board they don't even seem to realize it which is stunning to me.
Yes I do feel the same about marching in the streets
I try to be thoughtful reasonable and respect other people and expect the same from other people to me
Problem is mediocre people hate and want to suck blood out of successful people who earned with their sweat blood and tears to be where they are in life
I expect equality of opportunity and not the socialist equity which is communism which is the new Democratic and Biden policy
Was with you until this sentence. Not really sure where this is coming from. But it smacks of the modern day conservative thinking point that literally saying anything negative at all about America’s history, even if it is 100% indisputable fact, is some sort of liberal indoctrination. Which is one of the major pillars of the post truth movement I’m referring to.
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The reality is both sides are swamp city. Vote libertarian or green or brown or orange party next time. I haven’t voted for a traditional party candidate for president since Bush. You’re guaranteed to lose but it’s freeing knowing you voted for the best person in the race.
Chances are good your vote doesn’t count anyway.
I didn't say all that! My point is that younger Americans, in too many states in our country are being taught history in such a way that it leaves them with a sense of disgust rather than pride. When studying capitalism, its all about greed, greed, greed, and the one percent, rather than opportunity and entrepreneurship. Achievement does not come off the backs of the disadvantaged, but rather from hard work and sacrifice of those who took initiative when presented the opportunity. Its a negative spirit that's killing our country....and its intentional.
These posts hit on the two biggest practical items affecting American governance today. The two party system that has become a hindrance to independent thought and pragmatic decision making, and the system of gerrymandering which reinforces the power of those two parties.
The idea that we are no longer a democracy is a valid one, but not for the reason most people assert. The truth is we’re fed two undesirable options (as constituted), with the understanding that if we choose something else our votes won’t count. That isn’t real choice.
I’m not a conspiracy person but if I was my theory would be this. Those politicians we think hate each other don’t hate each other at all. They’re in cahoots to divide us, knowing that our distrust of one another only reinforces their power as “our protectors” against the “evil other party.”
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Thanks for stopping by, Brian. Yes most of us are still moderates. The parties were just hijacked by the insane fringes, wokes on the left and Trump voters on the right.
Things are getting back to normal imo though, at least on the left. Less so on the right, but there's still been progress.
Things are getting back to normal imo though, at least on the left. Less so on the right, but there's still been progress.
I haven’t really seen this. Can you provide some examples of what you’re referring to?
What I’ve seen, education wise, is an attempt by many conservative states to remove factual history from curriculum simply because it is negative. For example, in Florida they removed any mention of Rosa Parks’s race. So the curriculum now only teaches that she was asked to move to the back of the bus and refused and completely leaves out that she was asked to move to the back specifically because she was black And have removed the contextual backdrop of that event being the widespread racial discrimination and segregation at that time.
This is only what you're being told by the culture war lunatics who are afraid children will have empathy with minorities and even solidarity, which might make them grow up to be ***gasp*** Democrats.
If learning about history only makes you feel good, you aren't learning history.
As usual, the biggest sanctimonious prick on the board has to weigh in on things that embarrass him because they're true so he can muddy the waters.Poor dpic73
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I'll research it but your example rings as non-factual to me. Like many issues during the last couple of years, each side can distort the truth.
Just a reminder that you don't hear the truth on FoxNews
Florida textbook altered to remove references to Rosa Parks’s race: report
A Florida textbook publisher removed all references of race from a lesson about civil rights icon Rosa Parks in order to get a Florida committee’s approval, according to The New York Times. P…
thehill.com
It is very condescending to tell someone that they just believe what they are told. Conservatives are intelligent thinkers too, contrary to what you believe. Tell me, how would you teach Manifest Destiny as it relates to U.S. history during the 18th and 19th centuries?
Nor do you read it in the New York Times.Just a reminder that you don't hear the truth on FoxNews
Florida textbook altered to remove references to Rosa Parks’s race: report
A Florida textbook publisher removed all references of race from a lesson about civil rights icon Rosa Parks in order to get a Florida committee’s approval, according to The New York Times. P…
Pretty sure you do
.https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/17/opinion/letters/florida-textbooks-ron-desantis.html
You would teach it honestly and present both sides of the philosophy, including the parts that reflected poorly on the settlers.
I didn't say there weren't smart conservatives but red states have launched an attack on education in an effort to keep the students dumb.
Survey: 1 In 8 Florida Incoming Freshmen Plan To Flee DeSantis’s Education Policies
Among Florida’s incoming college freshmen, dissatisfaction with Governor Ron DeSantis’s education policies runs deep—in some cases, deep enough to make them look for college opportunities in another state.
www.forbes.com
