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Is this fascism?

nytigerfan

The Jack Dunlap Club
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Dec 10, 2004
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ADULTS in florida now have to get the government's permission to get gender affirming care.

The Florida law, known as Senate Bill 254, requires transgender adults to obtain written consent on a form adopted by the Board of Medicine and Board of Osteopathic Medicine - two oversight boards whose members are appointed by the governor and have already taken steps to restrict transgender care under DeSantis.
 
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ADULTS in florida now have to get the government's permission to get gender affirming care.

The Florida law, known as Senate Bill 254, requires transgender adults to obtain written consent on a form adopted by the Board of Medicine and Board of Osteopathic Medicine - two oversight boards whose members are appointed by the governor and have already taken steps to restrict transgender care under DeSantis.

Agree this shouldn’t be in place for adults. Should be up to them. However, it should be considered an elective procedure so the rest of the risk pool doesn’t bear the cost. Like a boob job.
 
I agree with the policy for children, ie a parent has to sign off before the age of 18 otherwise it's illegal. After 18, I don't really care what you do. You're old enough to die for your country, you're old enough to cut your d*ck off if that's what you want to do.

Also agree with Scotch, this should be considered an elective /cosmetic surgery same as a nose job, boob job etc and not subsidized by tax dollars.
 
I don't believe in government approval bc i don't believe in bigger government. Those under 18 should require personal consent, parental consent, 3-6 months of psychiatric review, and multiple medical professionals should sign off on the procedures (both medical and surgical.)

Oh wait, that's already the legal requirements for everyone under 18.
 
Soooooooo.....fascism?

That was the question.
Easy answer here. No. Because the folks you are asking generally agree with the folks passing these laws. If they passed a law that supported rights to gender care, THEN that would be fascism. It's not about the actual definition of fascism, it's about which side you support.

IE. The definition of FAKE NEWS is news that doesn't speak well of Donald Trump.
 
Soooooooo.....fascism?

That was the question.

No. I don't think requiring some sort of medical consent to have your manhood chopped off is the same as a "political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition."

I don't throw around nazism and fascism arbitrarily the way you do. I don't agree with some of the culture wars, but this isn't Hitler or Mussolini.
 
No. I don't think requiring some sort of medical consent to have your manhood chopped off is the same as a "political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition."

I don't throw around nazism and fascism arbitrarily the way you do. I don't agree with some of the culture wars, but this isn't Hitler or Mussolini.

The government tracking and having some control over what I do to my own "manhood" isnt "social regimentation"?

Government doesn't care that people cut off parts of a boys penis when they are small for religious reasons...
 
No. I don't think requiring some sort of medical consent to have your manhood chopped off is the same as a "political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition."

I don't throw around nazism and fascism arbitrarily the way you do. I don't agree with some of the culture wars, but this isn't Hitler or Mussolini.
Then you don't understand the concept. It doesn't have to come wrapped in swastikas to be fascist. This is 100% fascist legislation, as it restricts the civil liberties of a targeted group. Nobody is accusing the Desantis administration to be a wholly fascist administration.

Yet.
 
No. I don't think requiring some sort of medical consent to have your manhood chopped off is the same as a "political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition."

I don't throw around nazism and fascism arbitrarily the way you do. I don't agree with some of the culture wars, but this isn't Hitler or Mussolini.
You’re probably correct that this singular legislation doesn’t strictly fall into the category of Fascism. However, when you look at the totality of what the state of Florida has done under DeSantis and has proposed doing, I think its absolutely fair to categorize their treatment of the LGBTQ community as Fascist.

Fascism is sometimes a difficult -ism to define, because each iteration of Fascism looks slightly different. Being that its an authoritarian system, how it looks in different countries depends entirely on the authoritarian in place. Hitler’s fascism was markedly different from Mussolini’s fascism, to the point that I’d consider Nazism to be its own ideology altogether.

But, there are a few characteristics that every Fascist regime does have in common, and one of them is that there is a systematic and purposeful persecution of a specific, targeted group of people with the primary goal of eliminating them from society. To be sure “eliminating” doesn’t necessarily mean executing, though it certainly did in Nazism, but when I say eliminating I mean just that, simply the removal of that specific group from that specific state by whatever means the government is able to actuate.

Traditionally, we have understood that persecution in Fascism to be based on race, ethnicity, and/or nationality. However - and I wrote about this in another thread on this topic a few weeks ago - what we’re seeing in Florida and other conservative states is a new type of Fascism that is based on religion, its a sort of theocratic Fascism where the groups being targeted aren’t based on race or ethnicity but rather on grounds that they are undesirable based on specific religious values. This, of course, means that the LGBTQ community has become the primary target.

And when I say its a new Fascism, its really only new to the west. This type of theocratic fascism has existed in the middle east for some time. Iran, Saudi Arabia, and now Afghanistan under Taliban rule are very clear examples of this. In fact, “Islamofascism” was a phrase heavily adopted by American conservatives after 9/11, and it was a wildly accurate term. Ironically, we‘re learning that “christofascism” in America has a similar look (I just made that term up, by the way).

With this piece of legislation and others, its clear that Florida is attempting to systematically target and persecute the LGBTQ (most especially the “Ts”) community to the point that it drives them out of the state of Florida and prevents other members of that community from moving into the state of Florida. Therefore, IMO, it very clearly meets one the absolute core tenants of Fascism. When you look at other proposals or rhetoric from DeSantis, its easy to see that there are other Fascist elements to his style of governance. Most notably, using the government to specifically target a private company (Disney) for the sole reason that they spoke out against legislation is a blatant, in your face example of Fascism.

One thing I think we forget a lot about Hitler and the Nazis - and before I make this point, I want to make it clear that I’m not saying DeSantis is a Nazi or anything close to that - is that they didn’t just snap their fingers and get into power. They were legally elected before they eventually developed the authoritarian state. It wasn’t a revolution, it was a gradual and lawful process that was proceeded by over a decade’s worth of purposeful, systematic rhetoric, legislation, and erosion of civil rights and existing laws before Hitler became the sole ruler in 1933.

Fascism creeps, it crawls. And right now in the state of Florida, you’re seeing this new wave of American Fascism creep and crawl its way into prominence and there’s a large enough chunk of voters that either A) don’t care because it doesn’t impact them personally and they can benefit financially from it or B) actively approve and want to see Fascist legislation prevail that DeSantis is considered a legitimate contender for the Presidency.
 
Agree this shouldn’t be in place for adults. Should be up to them. However, it should be considered an elective procedure so the rest of the risk pool doesn’t bear the cost. Like a boob job.
Meh. Gender Dysphoria is a recognized and clinically diagnosed mental disorder and one of the recognized treatments is gender transition. Should the treatments for someone who has, say, bipolar disorder be considered elective?

Or maybe to ask it another way, since we’re discussing fascism in Florida, if one of your children was diagnosed with clinical depression or bipolar disorder, do you think the government should be able to stop you from providing treatment, as prescribed by a doctor, for that disorder? Should the government be able to take your child away from you if you support them taking medication for that disorder?
 
Meh. Gender Dysphoria is a recognized and clinically diagnosed mental disorder and one of the recognized treatments is gender transition. Should the treatments for someone who has, say, bipolar disorder be considered elective?

Or maybe to ask it another way, since we’re discussing fascism in Florida, if one of your children was diagnosed with clinical depression or bipolar disorder, do you think the government should be able to stop you from providing treatment, as prescribed by a doctor, for that disorder? Should the government be able to take your child away from you if you support them taking medication for that disorder?
There are never clear cut answers to your questions below. There was once a parent who denied treatment to their child who had cancer. That should never be allowed. There is nuance to everything and why we have a judicial system.

Adults should be able to do as they please as long as it doesn't affect other people. So if an adult wants to chop their junk off go right ahead. Don't use the taxpayers dollars, that's absurd.

Just because something is clinically recognized doesn't necessarily mean it should be. Abortion and euthanasia come to mind as available medicine that is of questionable morality.

The term facism is kind of like racism in that it's lost it's meaning with all the improper use of the term over the past 5 years.
 
There are never clear cut answers to your questions below. There was once a parent who denied treatment to their child who had cancer. That should never be allowed. There is nuance to everything and why we have a judicial system.

Adults should be able to do as they please as long as it doesn't affect other people. So if an adult wants to chop their junk off go right ahead. Don't use the taxpayers dollars, that's absurd.

Just because something is clinically recognized doesn't necessarily mean it should be. Abortion and euthanasia come to mind as available medicine that is of questionable morality.

The term facism is kind of like racism in that it's lost it's meaning with all the improper use of the term over the past 6 years.
Euthanasia isn't legal in the US. Assisted suicide is legal in 10 states. There is a difference between the two.
 
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Just because something is clinically recognized doesn't necessarily mean it should be. Abortion and euthanasia come to mind as available medicine that is of questionable morality.
This really doesn’t make any sense. Something being clinically recognized as as a disorder or treatment has no bearing on whether or not it is “moral” or vice versa. Its simply an acknowledgement that the condition exists.

I would argue 2 points. Firstly, that if something is a medical disorder it cannot be immoral as morality is based on decision making between a predetermined right and wrong and medical disorders are not a choice. I suppose you could argue that certain medical disorders are the result of a choice, such as lung cancer which is caused by smoking, but in general, it cannot be immoral to have cancer or depression or irritable bowel syndrome or gender dysphoria because these disorders don’t exist by choice. Even disorders that can be exacerbated by lifestyle choices like heart failure are still wrapped up heavily in genetic predisposition and other factors that are out of an individual’s control.

Secondly, even if we were to determine that having a certain disease could be immoral, the government really shouldn’t be in the business of determining what is moral or not moral. The government can determine what should be legal or not legal, but legalities shouldn’t necessarily be based on morality since morality is typically a deeply personal belief and there really is no universal morality. Something shouldn‘t be illegal because its determined to be immoral - even if many people believe that it is - it should be illegal because of the impact it has on the rights and safety of other people.

What Christofascism and Islamofascism are attempting to do is apply a universal morality to the law. That is to say, they’re asserting that there is a predetermined inherent right and wrong regardless of whether or not it harms another person and they essentially are wanting to create laws that punish people because their own privately held beliefs differ from the morality imposed by the state. This is, in its very nature, authoritarian.

You’re right that the term Fascism, as well as many other -isms like socialism and communism, do get thrown around so much that they have lost some meaning. This is why I think its important to lay out the actual actions and proposals that fit into the -ism that one is prescribing to a particular politician or party.

Its also important to take the emotion out of it. When I say that Ron DeSantis or Donald Trump are Fascists, I don’t mean that in the sense that they are twirling their mustaches as evil super villains, I mean that the policies they support and the rhetoric they use very clearly fit into the idealogical box that fascism exists in. They’re not purposely fascist, I don’t think, they don’t wake up in the morning and decide to be Fascists, but based on their stated beliefs and the policies they support, their ideologies align with Fascism, and I personally believe that Fascism is a net negative for the country and the people in it.
 
ADULTS in florida now have to get the government's permission to get gender affirming care.

The Florida law, known as Senate Bill 254, requires transgender adults to obtain written consent on a form adopted by the Board of Medicine and Board of Osteopathic Medicine - two oversight boards whose members are appointed by the governor and have already taken steps to restrict transgender care under DeSantis.
If you are an ADULT, why do you need permission?

Cut your penis off if you like, but why should ANYONE other than yourself, pay for it?

If you had a penis, I'd cut it off "free of charge". Maybe you should move out of Florida. You seem to hate it.
 
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Meh. Gender Dysphoria is a recognized and clinically diagnosed mental disorder and one of the recognized treatments is gender transition. Should the treatments for someone who has, say, bipolar disorder be considered elective?

Or maybe to ask it another way, since we’re discussing fascism in Florida, if one of your children was diagnosed with clinical depression or bipolar disorder, do you think the government should be able to stop you from providing treatment, as prescribed by a doctor, for that disorder? Should the government be able to take your child away from you if you support them taking medication for that disorder?

I think there’s probably a middle ground of sorts. I’m all for people with gender dysphoria getting the counseling and medication they need. Just like people with depression or bipolar in your example.

But body altering surgery isn’t a pathway for any other mental health condition. It’s expensive, and is often regretted later on. It’s unique and does not tie off equally to your examples.

I’m not a fan of the government approving anything medically related, but all insurance companies have something called prior authorization workflows. I work in musculoskeletal conditions. You generally can’t just go a get surgery (depending on the condition). There is usually a conservative care prerequisite (ex. PT for X sessions/weeks).

My mother is on Medicare and needed certain injections recently. She had to wait for other treatments to prove ineffective before insurance would pay for what she ultimately received.

These are designed to manage cost and direct patients to the most conservative and cost-effective care pathway that still addresses their issue.

If we’re going to pass the burden of body-altering surgery on to the risk pool (thereby increasing insurance premiums for all), then strict prior authorization workflows should be in place. From an insurance standpoint, it should be a last resort, when medication and counseling have proven ineffective, and require multiple physician sign-off, be deemed medically necessary (not preferred) as well as a psychiatric counseling and monitoring period.
 
The government tracking and having some control over what I do to my own "manhood" isnt "social regimentation"?

Government doesn't care that people cut off parts of a boys penis when they are small for religious reasons...

Remember how mad republicans got over the made up obamacare death panels? The thought that the government would intervene in healthcare decisions.

If you are an ADULT, why do you need permission?

Cut your penis off if you like, but why should ANYONE other than yourself, pay for it?

If you had a penis, I'd cut it off "free of charge". Maybe you should move out of Florida. You seem to hate it.

You want to cut off my penis? I have read some sick shit on this board, but you take the prize for being the sickest f&ck of all. Seek help.
 
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Agree this shouldn’t be in place for adults. Should be up to them. However, it should be considered an elective procedure so the rest of the risk pool doesn’t bear the cost. Like a boob job.
This bill is Not in place for adult treatment. It is for anyone presenting children under 18 for such treatment. Here is what it states:
Treatments for Sex Reassignment; Granting courts of this state temporary emergency jurisdiction over a child present in this state if the child has been subjected to or is threatened with being subjected to sex-reassignment prescriptions or procedures; providing that, for purposes of warrants to take physical custody of a child in certain child custody enforcement proceedings, serious physical harm to the child includes, but is not limited to, being subjected to sex-reassignment prescriptions or procedures; prohibiting certain public entities from expending state funds for the provision of sex-reassignment prescriptions or procedures; prohibiting sex-reassignment prescriptions and procedures for patients younger than 18 years of age; requiring the department to immediately suspend the license of a health care practitioner who is arrested for committing or attempting, soliciting, or conspiring to commit specified violations related to sex-reassignment prescriptions or procedures for a patient younger than 18 years of age, etc.

Effective Date: 5/17/2023
 
I think there’s probably a middle ground of sorts. I’m all for people with gender dysphoria getting the counseling and medication they need. Just like people with depression or bipolar in your example.

But body altering surgery isn’t a pathway for any other mental health condition. It’s expensive, and is often regretted later on. It’s unique and does not tie off equally to your examples.

I’m not a fan of the government approving anything medically related, but all insurance companies have something called prior authorization workflows. I work in musculoskeletal conditions. You generally can’t just go a get surgery (depending on the condition). There is usually a conservative care prerequisite (ex. PT for X sessions/weeks).

My mother is on Medicare and needed certain injections recently. She had to wait for other treatments to prove ineffective before insurance would pay for what she ultimately received.

These are designed to manage cost and direct patients to the most conservative and cost-effective care pathway that still addresses their issue.

If we’re going to pass the burden of body-altering surgery on to the risk pool (thereby increasing insurance premiums for all), then strict prior authorization workflows should be in place. From an insurance standpoint, it should be a last resort, when medication and counseling have proven ineffective, and require multiple physician sign-off, be deemed medically necessary (not preferred) as well as a psychiatric counseling and monitoring period.
I agree, it should be treated the same as any other medically necessary procedure.

Can you cite any studies showing that transgender people “often” regret having sexual reassignment surgery?
 
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You can support child mutilation if that's what you like. But the rest of us don't support it.

What I find is hilarious beyond stupidly is Insurance Companies (tell me if I am wrong) probably cover gender change surgery yet on other surgeries such as knee and knee replacement they are restricting surgeries because of weight or in prostate they are referring to knife surgeries when proton therapy works better

It's like the insurance comapnies are going woke and want to tell doctors what and when they can operate without regard to the patient needs or wants

Really don't know what the hell I am talking about as I don't ask and never will ask about gender surgery

This will sound old school but God made a person a man or women and change your attitude and not your body
 
ADULTS in florida now have to get the government's permission to get gender affirming care.

The Florida law, known as Senate Bill 254, requires transgender adults to obtain written consent on a form adopted by the Board of Medicine and Board of Osteopathic Medicine - two oversight boards whose members are appointed by the governor and have already taken steps to restrict transgender care under DeSantis.
I suppose you can call it whatever you want... at least there are some willing to slow down this utter insanity and stand on the truth to keep what is right.
 
This bill is Not in place for adult treatment. It is for anyone presenting children under 18 for such treatment. Here is what it states:
Treatments for Sex Reassignment; Granting courts of this state temporary emergency jurisdiction over a child present in this state if the child has been subjected to or is threatened with being subjected to sex-reassignment prescriptions or procedures; providing that, for purposes of warrants to take physical custody of a child in certain child custody enforcement proceedings, serious physical harm to the child includes, but is not limited to, being subjected to sex-reassignment prescriptions or procedures; prohibiting certain public entities from expending state funds for the provision of sex-reassignment prescriptions or procedures; prohibiting sex-reassignment prescriptions and procedures for patients younger than 18 years of age; requiring the department to immediately suspend the license of a health care practitioner who is arrested for committing or attempting, soliciting, or conspiring to commit specified violations related to sex-reassignment prescriptions or procedures for a patient younger than 18 years of age, etc.

Effective Date: 5/17/2023

He signed four different bills.
 
I suppose you can call it whatever you want... at least there are some willing to slow down this utter insanity and stand on the truth to keep what is right.

Got it. If you agree with it is OK. If not, it's bad.

And I love that you think you know the "truth". If another tax paying adult American makes the personal decision that they want to transition their gender, you are OK with the government telling them they cannot. You know that person's "truth" more than they do.

Were you one of the people who bitched about having to wear a mask?
 
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Got it. If you agree with it is OK. If not, it's bad.

And I love that you think you know the "truth". If another tax paying adult American makes the personal decision that they want to transition their gender, you are OK with the government telling them they cannot. You know that person's "truth" more than they do.

Were you one of the people who bitched about having to wear a mask?
It's not my truth. It's not even my opinion. It is The Truth. Who are you, me, or anyone else to question The Creator of everything? Such arrogance and audacity! That is beyond "folly" to try and place yourself, your opinion, and your decision making even remotely close to or equal to the very One who grants you and I the very breath we breathe... and could take it away at any moment, if He so chooses. Know Him and I promise you will know Truth.
 
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It's not my truth. It's not even my opinion. It is The Truth. Who are you, me, or anyone else to question The Creator of everything? Such arrogance and audacity! That is beyond "folly" to try and place yourself, your opinion, and your decision making even remotely close to or equal to the very One who grants you and I the very breath we breathe... and could take it away at any moment, if He so chooses. Know Him and I promise you will know Truth.

Yes yes. But you do understand that not everyone agrees with this word salad you just typed.

And the notion that you know and that others who disagree don't is the same kind of arrogance you are decrying.
 
It's not my truth. It's not even my opinion. It is The Truth. Who are you, me, or anyone else to question The Creator of everything? Such arrogance and audacity! That is beyond "folly" to try and place yourself, your opinion, and your decision making even remotely close to or equal to the very One who grants you and I the very breath we breathe... and could take it away at any moment, if He so chooses. Know Him and I promise you will know Truth.

You know, God made these people who want to transition. It happens in humans and in nature.

HOW DARE YOU QUESTION THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING!! BLASPHEMER!
 
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ADULTS in florida now have to get the government's permission to get gender affirming care.

The Florida law, known as Senate Bill 254, requires transgender adults to obtain written consent on a form adopted by the Board of Medicine and Board of Osteopathic Medicine - two oversight boards whose members are appointed by the governor and have already taken steps to restrict transgender care under DeSantis.
No. Facisism is using the DOJ to suppress political adversaries.
 
Yes yes. But you do understand that not everyone agrees with this word salad you just typed.

And the notion that you know and that others who disagree don't is the same kind of arrogance you are decrying.
You are more than free to disagree and have the right to do so. But that doesn’t make the Truth any less so. Just because someone doesn’t believe the sun is hot won’t make it cold.
 
You know, God made these people who want to transition. It happens in humans and in nature.

HOW DARE YOU QUESTION THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING!! BLASPHEMER!
Lol. Yes, God absolutely made those people… just because they want to do something, or “feel” they want to do something doesn’t make it right. You are insinuating God makes mistakes and that you, they, anyone must know better than Him.

How bout this… God made me. I feel like I want to steal from people, rape people, or want to pursue a career in kiddy-porn propaganda. I should absolutely be allowed to do that, right? After all God made me.
 
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I'd say that is getting very damn near close to it, yes!
That said, I have not read the complete bill, FWIW.
This. I don’t agree with it if we can take his post as truth. Problem is that I’m sure there’s more to it that he’s not leading on to. There always is
 
Lol. Yes, God absolutely made those people… just because they want to do something, or “feel” they want to do something doesn’t make it right. You are insinuating God makes mistakes and that you, they, anyone must know better than Him.

How bout this… God made me. I feel like I want to steal from people, rape people, or want to pursue a career in kiddy-porn propaganda. I should absolutely be allowed to do that, right? After all God made me.

You literally made his point. Not really making the point you though that you were.

Also, why are you guys so all consumed by Kiddy-porn? I have literally read more posts about Child porn on this board in the last couple months than any other time entire life.
 
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Lol. Yes, God absolutely made those people… just because they want to do something, or “feel” they want to do something doesn’t make it right. You are insinuating God makes mistakes and that you, they, anyone must know better than Him.

How bout this… God made me. I feel like I want to steal from people, rape people, or want to pursue a career in kiddy-porn propaganda. I should absolutely be allowed to do that, right? After all God made me.

"I feel like I want to steal from people, rape people, or want to pursue a career in kiddy-porn propaganda." - jjtiger

yikes. brother, i dont believe I would have told that. This is creepier than the guy who said he wanted to cut off my penis earlier today.
 
You are more than free to disagree and have the right to do so. But that doesn’t make the Truth any less so. Just because someone doesn’t believe the sun is hot won’t make it cold.

It's your truth. not mine, and it's certainly not "the" truth. And the fact that you don't get that or can't process it makes you the arrogant asshole that you continue to decry.

Have to lol at your comparing the presence of God to the presence of the sun.
 
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"I feel like I want to steal from people, rape people, or want to pursue a career in kiddy-porn propaganda." - jjtiger

yikes. brother, i dont believe I would have told that. This is creepier than the guy who said he wanted to cut off my penis earlier today.
Lol. I think you and I both know, just like anyone else with half a brain would, that what I said was complete tongue in cheek and sarcasm. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you knew that though and are not that ignorant. My point was to show how asinine of a statement that is, similarly to the ridiculous transgender insanity. And deep down you know what I was saying was just that... ridiculous. Just like deep down I suspect you "may" (may is the operative word here) know this transgender mess is wrong. It just doesn't line up with what you may want or feel... so, instead of running to the Truth, you choose to remain ignorant, in this particular instance, get upset and run from Truth. However, if you are not ignorant about it, and really do know the Truth, you are choosing to qualify as stupid. Which, by the way is worse.
 
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