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Jordan Peterson in Charleston 2 June

Yep, and crickets from @okclem when he got caught being a hypocrite.
I'm waiting for the link off Jordan Petersen telling someone to kill themself.


Nevermind. I found it. Someone was railing on about overpopulation of the Earth and JP said he was "free to leave at any point". Seriously. That's it?
 
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Despite the partisan hate being spewed toward this guy, I've read some of his books that predate much of the modern woke ideology and he's very consistent and quite brilliant. Perhaps one of the most brilliant minds of our time. I had no idea he was in town or I'd certainly have made plans to go see him.
Jesus Christ Jordan Peterson is not one of the most brilliant minds of our time. Are you kidding? 🤣🤣
 
“Sounds smart to dumb people.”

Pretty well sums it up! Or at the least, sounds smart to people with very limited perspective.
Ad hominim attacks...😞. Do you actually have a rebuttal to his position on any particular topic? I dare say even the most hard core lefty on here will find his material quite inspiring and agreeable if they were to actually read or consume it. And I'm not talking about a sound bite or two, but truly listen to his full address of a given topic.
 
Ad hominim attacks...😞. Do you actually have a rebuttal to his position on any particular topic? I dare say even the most hard core lefty on here will find his material quite inspiring and agreeable if they were to actually read or consume it. And I'm not talking about a sound bite or two, but truly listen to his full address of a given topic.
You think things that you agree with are what most people will agree to? Shocking revelation
 
Ad hominim attacks...😞. Do you actually have a rebuttal to his position on any particular topic? I dare say even the most hard core lefty on here will find his material quite inspiring and agreeable if they were to actually read or consume it. And I'm not talking about a sound bite or two, but truly listen to his full address of a given topic.
Are you even listening to yourself? Are you on his payroll or something? My man, the most brilliant thinkers of our time list is long and illustrious and nowhere on it will you find anyone who sells out arenas to right wing dude bros.
 
Not at all but then again I don’t live there remember?
I just like ****ing with you because you’re easy to mess with
Hypocrites and brain dead libs are easy to toss around and you’re the easiest one to abuse.
I think you're misunderstanding the situation here. I'm not chasing my tail wondering whether you really live in Cabo or not. I know you don't. There is no uncertainty on my part. Now I'm finished beating this dead horse.
 
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I think you're misunderstanding the situation here. I'm not chasing my tail wondering whether you really live in Cabo or not. I know you don't. There is no uncertainty on my part. Now I'm finished beating this dead horse.
I don’t actually but as you said, no one cares that you’re full of shit and a lying hypocrite so why would they care about me either? Lol
 
I don’t actually but as you said, no one cares that you’re full of shit and a lying hypocrite so why would they care about me either? Lol
They wouldn't. Apparently nobody does or you wouldn't have had to make up this years long lie about your super awesome life in an exotic country just to try and impress anonymous strangers online.

Whether or not anyone cares is of no concern to me. I just want you to know that I know you are full of shit and have been the entire time. And now you do.
 
They wouldn't. Apparently nobody does or you wouldn't have had to make up this years long lie about your super awesome life in an exotic country just to try and impress anonymous strangers online.

Whether or not anyone cares is of no concern to me. I just want you to know that I know you are full of shit and have been the entire time. And now you do.
Actually it’s been my lie for 22 years you idiot.
I purposely fly to Cabo to greet the people I’ve met on this board to prove I live there. 😂😂
It was awesome spending $2000 for a flight and one nights stay to have brunch with Brownell one weekend. 😂😂😂
You’re such a dumbass.
 
Actually it’s been my lie for 22 years you idiot.
I purposely fly to Cabo to greet the people I’ve met on this board to prove I live there. 😂😂
It was awesome spending $2000 for a flight and one nights stay to have brunch with Brownell one weekend. 😂😂😂
You’re such a dumbass.
Name dropping. That's very on brand.
 
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I really enjoy listening to him. I'm not as distinguished as some on here to determine his place in the pantheon of intellectuals, but I enjoy his counter-cultural takes and emphasis on responsibility and doing difficult things. I also enjoy him calling out attention-seeking people who try to act like martyrs. Working in the mental health field, I believe there's suffering that's being considered progress. Looking at the numbers in some situations is considered an "ism." That's a problem he doesn't suffer from.

I don't know his story or the arc of his career. But he has an interesting take on some things. Whether I agree or not, what I've seen is well thought out.
 
Elon Musk is one too. Dude is a fraud.

I’m curious to your reasoning on this one.

But Musk is ultimately responsible for creations that have and will change the automotive industry, space industry, tech industry and neurological disease/injury. I’m aware he didn’t work alone but he’s the dude for Tesla, SpaceX, Starlink and Neuralink. I’m not sure how you consider him a fraud. He does seem to enjoy riling people up on the internet but he may well be responsible for innovation that will change the way life is lived on this planet so to me he’s far from a fraud. There are a lot out there but he’s responsible for putting together teams that created tangible products through massive engineering feats people didn’t really think was possible.
 
You truly are an idiot. I can’t “invent” a post for some douche bag that won’t accept responsibility for his own actions.
Grow up, move out of Greenville like your neighbors want and live happily ever after in some liberal state that accepts your liberal crap.
Please leave Greenville. I hear Cuba is great. Bernie Sanders says it is! Lots (only?) Vintage cars from the 50s. Free health care too.......if you don't die waiting 2 years to see a doctor.
 
I won’t be there, but not because I wouldn’t go. Just late notice and I’m busy. I enjoy Jordan Peterson’s lectures and guest appearances on podcasts that I have caught. He’s a very genuine, well thought out individual and I appreciate his demeanor and how intentional he is.
 
Are you even listening to yourself? Are you on his payroll or something? My man, the most brilliant thinkers of our time list is long and illustrious and nowhere on it will you find anyone who sells out arenas to right wing dude bros.
Well, you made such a compelling argument, I just might have to reconsider.... 🙄

But seriously, have you actually consumed any of his work? Can you point to a position of his and use it to back up your claim? I mean, I genuinely want to know if someone whom I hold in high regard is actually a fraud and a charlatan.
 
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Well, you made such a compelling argument, I just might have to reconsider.... 🙄

But seriously, have you actually consumed any of his work? Can you point to a position of his and use it to back up your claim? I mean, I genuinely want to know if someone whom I hold in high regard is actually a fraud and a charlatan.
People who lead with ad hominem arguments usually never have any proof or any logical argument themselves. The next thing he will probably say is "if you don't already know then I am not going to explain it."
 
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Peterson’s vendetta against Elmo always made me laugh.

He also seems to have an absurd obsession with Dylan Mulvaney, but that’s about par for the course with terminally online right wingers.
 
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Well, you made such a compelling argument, I just might have to reconsider.... 🙄

But seriously, have you actually consumed any of his work? Can you point to a position of his and use it to back up your claim? I mean, I genuinely want to know if someone whom I hold in high regard is actually a fraud and a charlatan.
Can I back up my claim that Jordan peterson isn't one of the most brilliant minds of our time? No, I can't. Because it's not a claim. You're the one who suggested he is, so the onus is on you to prove it. There is nothing improper about me laughing at such a ridiculous claim.
 
I’m curious to your reasoning on this one.

But Musk is ultimately responsible for creations that have and will change the automotive industry, space industry, tech industry and neurological disease/injury. I’m aware he didn’t work alone but he’s the dude for Tesla, SpaceX, Starlink and Neuralink. I’m not sure how you consider him a fraud. He does seem to enjoy riling people up on the internet but he may well be responsible for innovation that will change the way life is lived on this planet so to me he’s far from a fraud. There are a lot out there but he’s responsible for putting together teams that created tangible products through massive engineering feats people didn’t really think was possible.
No, Musk is responsible for buying out the work of people much smarter than him, and then claiming that he was the genius behind it all. I'm not suggesting that he's not highly competent at what he does, just that he misrepresents exactly how much his own brain played a role.
 
You think things that you agree with are what most people will agree to? Shocking revelation
I suppose this will be last attempt to salvage meaningful discussion out of this thread before I leave to those who want nothing more than to mock, deride and otherwise personally denigrate one another.

I do, actually "think things that agree with are what most people will agree to". I know you mean it as personal attack--after all, ad hominem are the order of battle in these parts; but I'll double down. I am quite certain that the majority of the principal positions I hold are shared by most; even you, and I have no idea who you are. I dare say even among the committed lefties and righties on this board we can find majority agreement on the topics that truly mater.

I mean, what are we even arguing about here....that I see JP as an intellectual giant, and you don't? What does that actually matter? How about breaking down JP's rules for life, his take on the culture wars, gender pay gap, wokism, etc? What work of his do you really take issue with?
 
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I suppose this will be last attempt to salvage meaningful discussion out of this thread before I leave to those who want nothing more than to mock, deride and otherwise personally denigrate one another.

I do, actually "think things that agree with are what most people will agree to". I know you mean it as personal attack--after all, ad hominem are the order of battle in these parts; but I'll double down. I am quite certain that the majority of the principal positions I hold are shared by most; even you, and I have no idea who you are. I dare say even among the committed lefties and righties on this board we can find majority agreement on the topics that truly mater.

I mean, what are we even arguing about here....that I see JP as an intellectual giant, and you don't? What does that actually matter? How about breaking down JP's rules for life, his take on the culture wars, gender pay gap, wokism, etc? What work of his do you really take issue with?

Don’t you know the internet is no place for civil discourse? Your 2nd paragraph…I bet you’re right. No argument whatsoever.

As far as JP. I have read plenty of his, b/c I was curious when I kept hearing his name pop up with such enamored tones. I read some stuff and my takeaway was “I don’t get the fascination. I see incredibly limited thinking. Dude is a pseudo-intellectual. ”

I gotta get to work, I don’t have time for my own detailed rebuttal. But, I’ll c&p a short blurb I found that I fully agree with.


————-


“One of the major flaws in Peterson's arguments is his tendency to oversimplify complex issues.

He often presents black-and-white solutions to problems that require much more nuanced thinking.

His emphasis on individualism and personal responsibility can ignore the structural and systemic factors that contribute to societal issues.

Furthermore, Peterson's views on gender and identity have been widely criticized for their lack of understanding and empathy.

He often dismisses the struggles faced by marginalized groups, choosing instead to focus on his own personal views.

This narrow perspective limits the potential for meaningful dialogue and progress.


Overall, while Peterson may have some interesting insights, it is important to approach his arguments with a critical eye.

There are certainly flaws in his thinking that should not be overlooked.“
 
Can I back up my claim that Jordan peterson isn't one of the most brilliant minds of our time? No, I can't. Because it's not a claim. You're the one who suggested he is, so the onus is on you to prove it. There is nothing improper about me laughing at such a ridiculous claim.
Thats fair. But for the record, I was not putting it forth as a fact to be disproven. I was merely aiming to contrast my position with the other initial comments on this thread.

What I was asking for is what work of his you find so disagreeable?

I suppose it is reasonable see this version of him cashing in on his fame and going on arena tours as in poor taste and to look suspiciously at much of his work prior to this version of him. I don't know the guy personally and am not about to try to defend him personally. Having read some of his books and listed to hours of his lectures and debates, I find the man fascinating and brilliant. I am curious to know exactly how you came to your opinion of him?
 
No, Musk is responsible for buying out the work of people much smarter than him, and then claiming that he was the genius behind it all. I'm not suggesting that he's not highly competent at what he does, just that he misrepresents exactly how much his own brain played a role.
IF accurate that would put Elon Musk on another long list of people who took credit for others brilliance. Some call them innovators others called them thieves. That list would include such luminaries as Thomas Edison, Eli Whitney, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Kanye West, Mick Jagger, P.T. Barnum, Donald Trump, Thomas Jefferson, and Joseph Stalin.
 
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Thats fair. But for the record, I was not putting it forth as a fact to be disproven. I was merely aiming to contrast my position with the other initial comments on this thread.

What I was asking for is what work of his you find so disagreeable?

I suppose it is reasonable see this version of him cashing in on his fame and going on arena tours as in poor taste and to look suspiciously at much of his work prior to this version of him. I don't know the guy personally and am not about to try to defend him personally. Having read some of his books and listed to hours of his lectures and debates, I find the man fascinating and brilliant. I am curious to know exactly how you came to your opinion of him?
He came onto my radar a couple years ago, because a friend was encouraging me to listen. So my only exposure to him has been the last 3 years at most.

And I'm happily willing to grant the possibility that he started out on a better path. But the Jordan Peterson of the last 2 years is a bit of a charlatan imo.

Also, I don't have any grievances as a white male against any marginalized group. I never had trouble finding a lady with whom to get tender at night. I just don't care about any of this male empowerment stuff. Nothing in the last 10 years has made me feel reduced or diminished as a person because I'm a man.

Lastly, I just can't fathom a medical doctor who took a hippocratic oath to say many of the things that landed him under investigation by some medical ethics board in Canada.
 
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IF accurate that would put Elon Musk on another long list of people who took credit for others brilliance. Some call them innovators others called them thieves. That list would include such luminaries as Thomas Edison, Eli Whitney, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Kanye West, Mick Jagger, P.T. Barnum, Donald Trump, Thomas Jefferson, and Joseph Stalin.
Okay, and would you admit that some of the men on your list are terrible human beings to various degrees ranging from con artist all the way up to genocidal maniac?

I never said he wasn't highly accomplished.
 
I've been trying to figure out how to concisely explain my issues with JP, so let me give it a try:
1. He wants to be seen as a centrist thinker, first and foremost, somebody who is driven by science and facts. But it's just not true. The structure of his arguments generally goes like this: talk about a scientific or mathematical "law of nature", extrapolate that concept to relate to whatever he's talking about (pick any of his favorite topics), makes the topic seem incredibly complex when it generally isn't, reach a conclusion in a way that suggests that this thing (gender pay gap, wealth inequality, climate change, etc) is inevitable and there's nothing we can do about it. The problem is that step one of his argument, the foundation, is generally flawed in some way...sometimes made up, sometimes already debunked, or it's a concept that he doesn't seem to actually understand. He has said on podcasts and in interviews that he's a psychiatrist and that he doesn't do math and that their are topics that he doesn't really understand. Which is funny that he rails about the problems with climate models (and gets it wrong), talks endlessly about the Pareto Principle (and gets it wrong), his whole lobster thing with the serotonin (it's been debunked), and loves to cite and quote articles/books from questionable sources from problematic authors. It all sounds smart to people sitting in a crowd or reading a book, but his arguments are generally based on bad science from the start. His "laws of nature" are never that, but they sound good!
2. He gives a really good lecture, he's great in front of a crowd, and he likes to think of himself as a teacher. But given the above issues, he's not. I've heard him described as more of a preacher than a teacher, and that feels right to me. It's not a problem to be a preacher, but he's always saying that he's not that.
3. Again, he wants to be seen as a centrist and he's said many times that he doesn't consider himself to be "right wing", but that's kinda silly right on its face. Here is the Wikipedia definition of right-wing politics: "Right-wing politics is the range of political ideologies that view certain social orders and hierarchies as inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable, typically supporting this position based on natural law, economics, authority, property, religion, biology or tradition." That's basically his whole ideology in a nutshell, for any of you who aren't familiar with it. And also, by the way, that's fine if he's right-wing! Many many people share those beliefs! But what JP does is, with bad faith arguments and sketchy/incorrect "laws of nature", acts like he's coming to his belief system naturally in some inevitable way. And it's just coincidence that he's always coming to conclusions that line up with a right-wing belief system. It's disingenuous.
4. I think #3 above might be why many people say "he used to be great but now he's off the deep end" because I think he might have originally believed his own lies that he reached his right-wing belief system naturally based on thought and "math" and "science", instead of simply HAVING a belief system and then using his intellect to back into justification for it (i.e. what basically every one does, including me!). But at this point he has become a useful tool for the right-wing crowd and has grown to become almost a caricature of his earlier self, and is now clearly shilling for a paycheck. He gets hired at The Daily Wire, founded by a guy who makes his money fracking, and all of a sudden he thinks fracking is great? Again, it's disingenuous.
5. Lastly, many of the conclusions he ends up reaching are dangerous and start straying into fascist (or worse) belief systems...and his defense, whenever people call him out on it, is that he never suggests anything like that. But what he does is he drives the car toward the cliff, his audience in the back seat, and then at the last minute takes his hands off the wheel so that he can say "I didn't drive us over the cliff". AGAIN, disingenuous.
Let me close by giving an example of what I'm talking about. One of my favorite examples of the way he structures an argument is also maybe the most horrifying. JP likes to say that years ago the army had done tons of IQ studies and had put a policy in place that they would not take recruits with an IQ less than 83. He said that the army came to the conclusion, again based on rigorous studies, that there was nothing anyone with an IQ less than 83 could do in the army that wouldn't make things worse. He then shocks the crowd by saying that 1 in 10 people in the US have an IQ of less than 83. He then says that, if the US economy is reasonably as complex as the US army, that means that 1 in 10 people living in the US can't do anything of value. Then he says something like "this is a huge problem and it's very complex and nobody knows what to do about it...it's just a natural hierarchy and nobody knows what to do". When pressed for a solution, he throws up his hands. BUT HERE IS THE PROBLEM WITH THE ARGUMENT: That whole army 83 IQ policy thing he based this argument on is made up. There was never a policy, the army never came to the conclusion that the couldn't take people based on IQ, and there is no evidence that somebody with an IQ of 83 or lower "can't contribute meaningfully" to the army or the economy. His whole argument, which leads his audience to an unspoken (always unspoken) conclusion that the bottom 10% of our population is worthless, is based on something he just made up or maybe heard somewhere and didn't fact check or something. At best, his audience learns that they should loath the bottom 10% of the US population...at worst, you can see where the eugenics ideas start to creep in.
Sorry, this went way long but wanted to get those thoughts on paper!
 
Okay, and would you admit that some of the men on your list are terrible human beings to various degrees ranging from con artist all the way up to genocidal maniac?

I never said he wasn't highly accomplished.
100%. Was not directing shade to any specific person. I just find it mildly amusing that humans in our efforts to compare, connect, or classify things, it can lead to some interesting juxtapositions. There is a thin line between genius and madness, that may very well be painted in blood.
 
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Sorry, this went way long but wanted to get those thoughts on paper!
No need to apologize. This kind of discussion is one of the reasons I started this thread. Again, I my journey with JP was not always lock step. He was a guy I thought had an interesting way of looking at things. I try not to hold people's personal trials and tribulations against them. It does provide color and perspective to his overall arguments. Interestingly, I wonder if his own nature has changed because of his circumstance, or his true self is being revealed due to circumstance.

Lastly, the thing that really caught my attention was when Nassim Nicholas Taleb called him a fraud. Granted Mr. Taleb thinks all psychiatrists and economists are frauds.
 
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