National Debt

[Catch50]

How much do you pay in taxes? Effective federal income tax rate.

17% this past April. I had to take out retirement pay to completely pay the taxes. Married with no children. I also had to pay more in state taxes. With no complaint.

I am definitely not one of those people who thinks the rich don't enough in taxes. They pay far more than the average American. I'm just very concerned about the debt.

 

[Catch50]

Part of the problem is that Democrats think $180 Billion is “barely anything”.

The waste fraud and abuse was significant and it’s a huge first step in the right direction.

It is barely anything. $180 billion out of $37 trillion is .5%

 

[Catch50]

Part of the problem is that Democrats think $180 Billion is “barely anything”.

The waste fraud and abuse was significant and it’s a huge first step in the right direction.

Feeding people is not waste and fraud. Neither is medical research nor weather tracking. Nor .....

 

[scotchtiger]

17% this past April. I had to take out retirement pay to completely pay the taxes. Married with no children. I also had to pay more in state taxes. With no complaint.

I am definitely not one of those people who thinks the rich don't enough in taxes. They pay far more than the average American. I'm just very concerned about the debt.

I gotcha. But if you don’t support the extension of the current tax rates (called a cut by some), then you are suggesting many aren’t paying enough - including many people not considered rich.

We pay around a 30% percent effective federal income tax rate. You can understand why I feel like that is more than enough - more than my fair share - and vehemently oppose anyone suggesting my tax rates should increase from what they are today.

Do you consider the extension of current rates a “tax cut?” Do you believe I am not paying my fair share and should have my rates increased beyond what they are today?

 

[fatpiggy]

It is barely anything. $180 billion out of $37 trillion is .5%

Re-do your math.

$180 Billion per year.

 

[fatpiggy]

Feeding people is not waste and fraud. Neither is medical research nor weather tracking. Nor .....

You sound like the family that gets the $10,000 credit card bill that they can only make minimum payments on, yet "can't find anything to cut."

That line of thinking is the problem.

 

[fatpiggy]

17% this past April. I had to take out retirement pay to completely pay the taxes. Married with no children. I also had to pay more in state taxes. With no complaint.

I am definitely not one of those people who thinks the rich don't enough in taxes. They pay far more than the average American. I'm just very concerned about the debt.

Feeding people is not waste and fraud. Neither is medical research nor weather tracking. Nor .....

Very concerned about the debt but doesn't want to cut anything.

 

[Catch50]

I gotcha. But if you don’t support the extension of the current tax rates (called a cut by some), then you are suggesting many aren’t paying enough - including many people not considered rich.

We pay around a 30% percent effective federal income tax rate. You can understand why I feel like that is more than enough - more than my fair share - and vehemently oppose anyone suggesting my tax rates should increase from what they are today.

Do you consider the extension of current rates a “tax cut?” Do you believe I am not paying my fair share and should have my rates increased beyond what they are today?

I agree with everything you say here. I wish I had the time to look at this budget plan. Yes, taxes should not increase for anybody with the extension.

 

[Catch50]

You sound like the family that gets the $10,000 credit card bill that they can only make minimum payments on, yet "can't find anything to cut."

That line of thinking is the problem.

No but I know that many people can't make enough money. Someone has to do the crap jobs that don't much. In an ideal world, these jobs would be held by people who don't need a high primary income.

 

[Catch50]

Very concerned about the debt but doesn't want to cut anything.

I never said I don't want to cut anything. The fact is if we cut spending, the GDP goes down and thus tax receipts go down. The fact is no one has come close to balancing the budget since a few years before 2000. Our only chance is to grow the economy enough to slow down rising debt.

 

[Catch50]

Re-do your math.

$180 Billion per year.

Of course. But reducing spending that much every year does little to reduce inflation or interest rates.

I'm from the school that says the most important factor in inflation (and probably interest rates) is oil prices.
Ever since I sat in my dad's car in gas lines in 1970's.

 

[fatpiggy]

Of course. But reducing spending that much every year does little to reduce inflation or interest rates.

I'm from the school that says the most important factor in inflation (and probably interest rates) is oil prices.
Ever since I sat in my dad's car in gas lines in 1970's.

Incorrect and this is reflected in the treasury market.

When DOGE first came on and started making their cuts, the 10yr yield went from 4.8% down to 4%. When it became apparent that the DOGE cuts wouldn't be permanent and we would still run a $2.5 trillion deficit, the yield climbed back up to 4.5%. This is all while inflation came down. (Tells you how much fat there was in the budget imo)

So it unquestionably does a lot. 1% difference in interest rates makes hundreds of billion of dollars difference in our annual interest expense. We discuss this in detail in other threads.

Oil prices do impact inflation but it is quantifiable the impact they have. The biggest driver of inflation is government spending. There is a direct correlation.

 

[Catch50]

Incorrect and this is reflected in the treasury market.

When DOGE first came on and started making their cuts, the 10yr yield went from 4.8% down to 4%. When it became apparent that the DOGE cuts wouldn't be permanent and we would still run a $2.5 trillion deficit, the yield climbed back up to 4.5%. This is all while inflation came down. (Tells you how much fat there was in the budget imo) Inflation came down to a large extent because of job losses (and working people slowing their spending) and the slowing of the economy.

So it unquestionably does a lot. 1% difference in interest rates makes hundreds of billion of dollars difference in our annual interest expense. We discuss this in detail in other threads.

Oil prices do impact inflation but it is quantifiable the impact they have. The biggest driver of inflation is government spending. There is a direct correlation. ( I would argue that more often inflation causes more spending)

 

[fatpiggy]

You can have more spending without inflation, but you can't have inflation without spending.

 

[fatpiggy]

 

[fatpiggy]

I'm on Rand Paul's side

 

[Catch50]

You can have more spending without inflation, but you can't have inflation without spending.

We had relatively little inflation before covid. Thanks in large part to good trade policies before Trump.

Would you like to try a breakdown of spending cuts without driving unemployment much higher??

 

[Catch50]

We had relatively little inflation before covid. Thanks in large part to good trade policies before Trump.

Would you like to try a breakdown of spending cuts without driving unemployment much higher??

No takers?

 

[fatpiggy]

No takers?

You can easily make spending cuts and not increase unemployment much higher. The idea is to move the jobs from inefficient government jobs to more efficient jobs in the private sector.

 

[fatpiggy]

 

[TigerGrowls]

 

[TigerGrowls]

 

[fatpiggy]

I respect the effort, but we all know this goes no where. Desperately needed. Politicians too corrupt to enact.

 

[fatpiggy]

This is getting insane. If the country was making $100k a year then we would be paying a $40k a year credit card bill, in interest. And you have to pay that bill with after tax money.

We have record high tax revenues. Revenues are not the problem.

WE HAVE A MAJOR SPENDING PROBLEM IN THIS COUNTRY.

 

[fatpiggy]

No but I know that many people can't make enough money. Someone has to do the crap jobs that don't much. In an ideal world, these jobs would be held by people who don't need a high primary income.

The United States is receiving record amounts of income. The most they have ever taken in.

So not making enough money is not a good analogy.

The theoretical family with the high credit card bill and can’t afford to cut anything is also making more money than they have ever made before.


We have a massive spending problem. It is not sustainable.

 

[fatpiggy]

Over the last 3 years The United States Intrest expense increased at a rate of 20% per year.

In April 2022 our interest expense was $60 billion per month and this April it was $101 Billion.

This is clearly unsustainable

Spoiler

 

[Catch50]

The United States is receiving record amounts of income. The most they have ever taken in.

So not making enough money is not a good analogy.

The theoretical family with the high credit card bill and can’t afford to cut anything is also making more money than they have ever made before.


We have a massive spending problem. It is not sustainable.

Since you and your friends can't identify significant spending cuts, you lose the argument.

 

[scotchtiger]

Since you and your friends can't identify significant spending cuts, you lose the argument.

We can all identify them. You just can’t win elections if you make them. Entitlements must be reformed across the board. Medicare, social security, Medicaid, welfare, etc. It just shows how dependence on government programs is the absolute worst thing for a country. It’s bankrupting us.

 

[flotiger]

We can all identify them. You just can’t win elections if you make them. Entitlements must be reformed across the board. Medicare, social security, Medicaid, welfare, etc. It just shows how dependence on government programs is the absolute worst thing for a country. It’s bankrupting us.

I think that's a simpleton take on complex problem. Always room for some improvement, but not everyone is equal in a crowd of 330M. A modern nation state has to accommodate some kind of safety net. You can think you have enough guns and bullets, but when 20 or 30 million come for the haves because they are hungry, sick of dying for lack of health care, and tired of having to slave for the haves, then you'll think it was better to pay more taxes and be more compassionate. See the Arab Spring, see most empires from beginning of time. 1950 USA isn't the same as 2025.

 

[Catch50]

We can all identify them. You just can’t win elections if you make them. Entitlements must be reformed across the board. Medicare, social security, Medicaid, welfare, etc. It just shows how dependence on government programs is the absolute worst thing for a country. It’s bankrupting us.

"You just can't win elections" because these policies make the economy worse. They don't work. Austerity does not work!!

 

[scotchtiger]

I think that's a simpleton take on complex problem. Always room for some improvement, but not everyone is equal in a crowd of 330M. A modern nation state has to accommodate some kind of safety net. You can think you have enough guns and bullets, but when 20 or 30 million come for the haves because they are hungry, sick of dying for lack of health care, and tired of having to slave for the haves, then you'll think it was better to pay more taxes and be more compassionate. See the Arab Spring, see most empires from beginning of time. 1950 USA isn't the same as 2025.

Sure, not everyone is equal. We should look out for kids, the elderly and the disabled (getting super fat and catching the diabeetus isn’t disabled btw).

The rest? If you’re an able-bodied adult and can’t provide for yourself, look in the mirror. If you’re so incompetent as to be unable to earn a basic wage, I have very little concern that you pose some sort of threat of revolt. The laziness and incompetence will be the overwhelming theme of any failed attempt.

And we should all agree that only American citizens get free shit from hardworking taxpayers.

 

[Catch50]

Sure, not everyone is equal. We should look out for kids, the elderly and the disabled (getting super fat and catching the diabeetus isn’t disabled btw).

The rest? If you’re an able-bodied adult and can’t provide for yourself, look in the mirror. If you’re so incompetent as to be unable to earn a basic wage, I have very little concern that you pose some sort of threat of revolt. The laziness and incompetence will be the overwhelming theme of any failed attempt.

And we should all agree that only American citizens get free shit from hardworking taxpayers.

Do you not believe that millions of people never receive replies when they apply for jobs? Supply and demand applies in employment.

 

[scotchtiger]

Do you not believe that millions of people never receive replies when they apply for jobs? Supply and demand applies in employment.

Sure. But there are jobs they could do in the meantime that can pay the bills. I’ve had countless trades at my house over the years who can’t find decent labor and are paying $18-20++ per hour. Dock builders, contractors, landscapers, etc. They constantly bitch about it. “Nobody wants to work.” Signed, every one of them.

Shit. Go door to door and offer to do repairs, cut grass, whatever. Falling back of the government shouldn’t be an option outside of very temporary and transient assistance.

Oh, and when you have a job, learn wtf an emergency fund is. It’s that thing you build so you never have to rely on someone else during an employment transition period.

 

[Catch50]

Sure. But there are jobs they could do in the meantime that can pay the bills. I’ve had countless trades at my house over the years who can’t find decent labor and are paying $18-20++ per hour. Dock builders, contractors, landscapers, etc. They constantly bitch about it. “Nobody wants to work.” Signed, every one of them.

Shit. Go door to door and offer to do repairs, cut grass, whatever. Falling back of the government shouldn’t be an option outside of very temporary and transient assistance.

Oh, and when you have a job, learn wtf an emergency fund is. It’s that thing you build so you never have to rely on someone else during an employment transition period.

Going door to door means wasting most of the day getting doors slammed in your face. It's unrealistic.

 

[scotchtiger]

Going door to door means wasting most of the day getting doors slammed in your face. It's unrealistic.

Is it unrealistic to swing a hammer or cut some grass or dig a ditch or whatever? Literally every trade that comes to my house needs people. But we make it easier to collect government benefits. It’s why a safety net is toxic for able bodied working age people. Fear of failure and destitution is a real motivator. Help the vulnerable. Force the capable to provide for themselves.

 

[Catch50]

Is it unrealistic to swing a hammer or cut some grass or dig a ditch or whatever? Literally every trade that comes to my house needs people. But we make it easier to collect government benefits. It’s why a safety net is toxic for able bodied working age people. Fear of failure and destitution is a real motivator. Help the vulnerable. Force the capable to provide for themselves.

With unlivable compensation. Which makes the economy worse for ALL!

 

[scotchtiger]

With unlivable compensation. Which makes the economy worse for ALL!

$18-20+ an hour is unlivable? That’s what all the trades I talked to were paying. And that’s been a couple of years so it’s probably higher.

The problem is soft, lazy people who don’t want to work. We shouldn’t let them drag the rest of us down.

 

[Catch50]

$18-20+ an hour is unlivable? That’s what all the trades I talked to were paying. And that’s been a couple of years so it’s probably higher.

The problem is soft, lazy people who don’t want to work. We shouldn’t let them drag the rest of us down.

Hordes of people in the neighborhood looking for such work will drive that compensation way down.

You guys don't understand that all your silly ideas have been considered for decades.

You win the race to the bottom.

 

[scotchtiger]

Hordes of people in the neighborhood looking for such work will drive that compensation way down.

You guys don't understand that all your silly ideas have been considered for decades.

You win the race to the bottom.

It’s like we’re on two different planets. I want people to work for what they get and don’t believe they should be able to take from hardworking, tax-paying families. You make excuses for them.

“If they all tried to work the wage would go down, so we shouldn’t make them try to work.”

I mean, apparently the ‘R’ word is making a comeback. I won’t use it, but holy shit has there ever been a thought process this ideal to which to assign it.

 

[Catch50]

$18-20+ an hour is unlivable? That’s what all the trades I talked to were paying. And that’s been a couple of years so it’s probably higher.

The problem is soft, lazy people who don’t want to work. We shouldn’t let them drag the rest of us down.

Hordes of people in the neighborhood looking for such work will drive that compensation way down.

You guys don't understand that all your silly ideas have been considered for decades.

You win the race to the bottom.

It’s like we’re on two different planets. I want people to work for what they get and don’t believe they should be able to take from hardworking, tax-paying families. You make excuses for them.

“If they all tried to work the wage would go down, so we shouldn’t make them try to work.”

I mean, apparently the ‘R’ word is making a comeback. I won’t use it, but holy shit has there ever been a thought process this ideal to which to assign it.

I have to repeat. "You guys don't understand that all your silly ideas have been considered for decades."

People don't want negative economic growth. They want higher economic growth!