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I'll echo my thoughts regarding the confederate flag at the Capitol... I'm an educated, conservative, 51-year-old white male. I think we should re-name Tillman Hall.
The further Clemson can distance itself from that clown the better.
It wasn't always named after Tillman right? I have no problem dropping his name. Rename it Tiger Hall but don't rename it after another person. Too often something bad comes out later about people who have things named after them.
What's next? At what point do you stop? Are we going to re-name the Washington monument because George Washington had slaves? Something to think about when you go down the path of re-naming historical buildings.It wasn't always named after Tillman right? I have no problem dropping his name. Rename it Tiger Hall but don't rename it after another person. Too often something bad comes out later about people who have things named after them.
And thus begins the slippery slope. You can't sanitize history. I agree the timing was not the best, but I'm ok with the flag coming down and I didn't always feel that way. As momentum builds, I'm afraid we'll see more attempts to cleanse our past of any and all distasteful elements.
Here's the voice today of Paul Thurmond, son of perhaps South Carolina's most famous citizen and former arch segregationist, Strom Thurmond on the floor of the South Carolina Senate:
“For the life of me, I will never understand how anyone could fight a civil war based in part on the desire to continue the practice of slavery,” Thurmond said.
“Think about it for just a second: our ancestors were literally fighting to continue to keep human beings as slaves, and continue the unimaginable acts that occur when someone is held against their will. I am not proud of that heritage.”
South Carolinians, however, CAN be proud of the stand he took today.
Yes, Larry, I have always felt that within 10 years, the BOT will find a way to change the name of Tillman Hall. Clemson will do the right thing just like (finally) the state legislature is doing the right thing in Columbia.
Lincoln ordered the systemic killing of hundreds of Indian women and children by the US Army as an act of vengeance in Minnesota. Worse than anything Tillman did. Do you want everything Lincoln renamed? Where do you stop and end? Where is a line drawn? Tillman was an average and typical South Carolinian of his era except he had leadership and influence. In his day, he was considered a hero to farmers and the working poor.I'll echo my thoughts regarding the confederate flag at the Capitol... I'm an educated, conservative, 51-year-old white male. I think we should re-name Tillman Hall.
The further Clemson can distance itself from that clown the better.
I bet you that Strom never thought he would have a son make those sort of statements. My how things have changed.
You posed a fair hypothetical about earlier removal and the shootings. To that I would say no one could say for certain, and honestly from my perspective probably not if the shooter's circumstances don't change, which they probably would not have. Now I propose you a hypothetical to your state's rights view. Does a war for the rights you discuss and under the flag you support take place without the racist institution of slavery? (and fyi slavery did involve racial differences hence the slave codes that had been established in 1600's denoting the differences in race and inferiority of people of color, and stating Hollings was a Dem. doesn't mean what you would hope considering the Dem. in the south were much different in their views on racial issues at that point in history). Would like to add really well-written and insightful piece from Larry. Thank you.It's ok if you flame.
I agree with you on most things, but to say that all of a sudden all these people have had a true change of heart on the subject of the flag is ridiculous. This decision is driven by money, perception and politics. They are simply afraid it is costing the state money not to take it down and now is an opportunity to justify taking it down. The majority of people who support the confederate flag as historical symbol, do not see it as support for racism. Indeed, that is not what it is a symbol of. The perception of those who do not support it and the media and PC nuts have turned it into a symbol of racism which it was not meant to be. The flag that was at the top of the statehouse was put there by our Democratic governor Hollings - and it was not in support of racism or an objection to civil rights. If we had taken the flag down 20 years ago, would that have prevented the murders of the people in Charleston? It is not meant to be a symbol of hate. The fact that some people say it is to them should not alter the facts. Either the flag is meant to be a symbol of hate or it is not. What certain groups of people perceive it to be should be irrelevant. I support the symbol of the confederate flag as a states rights issue. I am not a racists, and just because someone says I am a racists because I support the confederate flag does not make me one.
Should we all not be able to show the symbol of the cross because it is sign of hatred for the lgbt crowd? Where do we stop? There have been public schools that have banned images of the American Flag and refused to let military personnel enter in uniform because it may be offensive to other people - if this becomes the majority view, does that make it right? By in large, it has been the media who has shaped, twisted, and altered the reality of issues over the last couple of decades.
To prove my point about it being a political issue, I will use your example of the possible Notre Dame coverage. Can you give me ANY examples of negative press Norte Dame has received because they hate gay people because they are a Catholic University? Catholic ideology clearly states that homosexuality is considered a sin. Is this an issue for them? Of course not, because a large majority of the people who assign blame and determine right and wrong these days either identify as Catholics or are surrounded by many who do. Yet how much heat did Dabo/Clemson get for not even going that far (saying it was a sin) theologically. That one person on personal time who was supporting one group and not judging another. Norte Dame as an institution supports the view that homosexuality is a sin. Based on the FACTS, who should get the most heat- Clemson or ND?
Come on, are we really comparing Tillman to Lincoln and Washington? Simple answer is it is easy to change the name of Tillman Hall. Every man is sinful, yes. But let's be logical here.Lincoln ordered the systemic killing of hundreds of Indian women and children by the US Army as an act of vengeance in Minnesota. Worse than anything Tillman did. Do you want everything Lincoln renamed? Where do you stop and end? Where is a line drawn? Tillman was an average and typical South Carolinian of his era except he had leadership and influence. In his day, he was considered a hero to farmers and the working poor.
The world and its history is messy. Man is inherently sinful. Anything good is by God's grace and mercy many of us believe.
And thus begins the slippery slope. You can't sanitize history. I agree the timing was not the best, but I'm ok with the flag coming down and I didn't always feel that way. As momentum builds, I'm afraid we'll see more attempts to cleanse our past of any and all distasteful elements.
Actually Old Strom would be OK with those statements as he changed his position in his later years. Read about it.
If I read the article correctly, it sounds like the Post and Courier folks posed the question about the flag. I'm not sure if Clements, Drad or Dabo could say anything other than what they said. The flag is such an emotional issue more so than a political one (unlike gun control which is an emotional issue but also a constitutional and political issue), and because this is an emotional time of introspection, then I think the timing is OK. I really don't think the flag issue being raised right now by Haley and others is about politics. I truly believe it is coming from a place of genuine brokenness and an impassioned desire for reconciliation and healing. I think so many people have "racial tension fatigue" and want to take an appropriate step forward.
You clearly don't get his point. Change Tillman and it'll soon be something else, then another change, and so on. Where does it end? Give it a rest, it's absurd.Come on, are we really comparing Tillman to Lincoln and Washington? Simple answer is it is easy to change the name of Tillman Hall. Every man is sinful, yes. But let's be logical here.
It's ok if you flame.
I agree with you on most things, but to say that all of a sudden all these people have had a true change of heart on the subject of the flag is ridiculous. This decision is driven by money, perception and politics. They are simply afraid it is costing the state money not to take it down and now is an opportunity to justify taking it down. The majority of people who support the confederate flag as historical symbol, do not see it as support for racism. Indeed, that is not what it is a symbol of. The perception of those who do not support it and the media and PC nuts have turned it into a symbol of racism which it was not meant to be. The flag that was at the top of the statehouse was put there by our Democratic governor Hollings - and it was not in support of racism or an objection to civil rights. If we had taken the flag down 20 years ago, would that have prevented the murders of the people in Charleston? It is not meant to be a symbol of hate. The fact that some people say it is to them should not alter the facts. Either the flag is meant to be a symbol of hate or it is not. What certain groups of people perceive it to be should be irrelevant. I support the symbol of the confederate flag as a states rights issue. I am not a racists, and just because someone says I am a racists because I support the confederate flag does not make me one.
Should we all not be able to show the symbol of the cross because it is sign of hatred for the lgbt crowd? Where do we stop? There have been public schools that have banned images of the American Flag and refused to let military personnel enter in uniform because it may be offensive to other people - if this becomes the majority view, does that make it right? By in large, it has been the media who has shaped, twisted, and altered the reality of issues over the last couple of decades.
To prove my point about it being a political issue, I will use your example of the possible Notre Dame coverage. Can you give me ANY examples of negative press Norte Dame has received because they hate gay people because they are a Catholic University? Catholic ideology clearly states that homosexuality is considered a sin. Is this an issue for them? Of course not, because a large majority of the people who assign blame and determine right and wrong these days either identify as Catholics or are surrounded by many who do. Yet how much heat did Dabo/Clemson get for not even going that far (saying it was a sin) theologically. That one person on personal time who was supporting one group and not judging another. Norte Dame as an institution supports the view that homosexuality is a sin. Based on the FACTS, who should get the most heat- Clemson or ND?
If you rename Tillman Hall, the name Clemson will not be far behind. TGC was very closely aligned with Tillman and there will be guilt by association.
Oh, I get it. My point is that this will never get close to Lincoln and Washington. So, I guess you didn't get mine.You clearly don't get his point. Change Tillman and it'll soon be something else, then another change, and so on. Where does it end? Give it a rest, it's absurd.
I agree, consider me in this camp. I've been a huge advocate of keeping the flag "where it is" , but last week tipped the needle for me.I think the average white citizen in SC is genuinely reconsidering based on true compassion and the fatigue you mentioned." As for SOME of the politicians, they are still playing politics in my humble opinion. Haley to be direct. She changed in 24hrs post Charleston. Didn't her CEO comment happen after the shooting?
The moment folks start pushing to rename buildings and remove statues...that's a HUGE problem. Time to look forward and move on.
You posed a fair hypothetical about earlier removal and the shootings. To that I would say no one could say for certain, and honestly from my perspective probably not if the shooter's circumstances don't change, which they probably would not have. Now I propose you a hypothetical to your state's rights view. Does a war for the rights you discuss and under the flag you support take place without the racist institution of slavery? (and fyi slavery did involve racial differences hence the slave codes that had been established in 1600's denoting the differences in race and inferiority of people of color, and stating Hollings was a Dem. doesn't mean what you would hope considering the Dem. in the south were much different in their views on racial issues at that point in history). Would like to add really well-written and insightful piece from Larry. Thank you.