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Noncitizens across U.S. find it easy to register to vote, cast ballots

TigerGrowls

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https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jul/31/noncitizens-find-it-easy-register-vote-cast-ballot/

Noncitizens across U.S. find it easy to register to vote, cast ballots
Russian national surprised to be on rolls in San Francisco

S.A. Miller - The Washington Times - Updated: 9:52 p.m. on Tuesday, July 31, 2018
A Russian national or any other noncitizen can easily influence a U.S. election by simply registering to vote in California — just ask Elizaveta Shuvalova.

Ms. Shuvalova said she didn’t even know her name was added to the San Francisco voter rolls in 2012, when she was a 21-year-old Russian citizen living legally in the U.S. but ineligible to vote.

“I’ve never registered for anything in my entire life,” said Ms. Shuvalova, who became a U.S. citizen early last year. “This is news to me.”

The Washington Times obtained a San Francisco County voter log that detailed Ms. Shuvalova’s registration history and presented the document to her.

It showed that she signed up as a Democrat in July 2012 and that her registration was canceled in May 2016 after she told election officials she wasn’t a citizen. Her registration, as a Republican, was reactivated in March 2017.

“This is definitely a shocker to me. It is like an identity fraud because this is not coming from my end,” said Ms. Shuvalova, who now lives in New York, works as a personal trainer and calls herself a Democrat. “Like I told you, I haven’t even been a citizen during that time frame. So what can we do about it?”


More of a shocker is how easily Ms. Shuvalova was registered to vote in California without a citizenship check. Conservative watchdogs say the problem is surprisingly common across the country.

Noncitizens are signing up to vote in states including Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Virginia, according to research by the Public Interest Legal Foundation, a nonprofit law firm that advocates for election integrity. The foundation found that a large percentage of those noncitizens managed to cast ballots, too.

Ms. Shuvalova was signed up — possibly without her knowledge — by an organization circulating a petition for a 2013 ballot initiative to stop a massive condominium development on the San Francisco waterfront.

Ms. Shuvalova as a petition signer, said John Arntz, director of the San Francisco Department of Elections.

Activists often hand in stacks of registration cards with their petitions, he said.

Election officials say they conduct routine cross-references of voter registration information with databases at the state’s Department of Motor Vehicles and the secretary of state’s office but did not flag Ms. Shuvalova as a noncitizen.

The box for “vote by mail” was checked on her registration card, and the county began sending her ballots.

County records show she received nine ballots but never voted.

The only ballot returned to the election office was in May 2016, a month before the state’s Democratic primary, with the words “not citizen” written on it. Her self-identification as a noncitizen was noted on the voter log.

The county canceled Ms. Shuvalova’s registration at that time.

Yet she was somehow reregistered again a year later, about the time she became a citizen. Four months later, she moved to New York but remained on the California voter rolls.

Ms. Shuvalova said she doesn’t recall registering to vote either time or returning the ballot saying she wasn’t a citizen.

Mr. Arntz said nothing would have prevented Ms. Shuvalova from voting prior to 2016 and she would have remained on the voter rolls if his department had not received the ballot with “not citizen” scrawled across it.

But he didn’t think the Shuvalova case represented a broader problem.

“If it was a problem, this would be an issue that comes up every election or something we would have experienced more through time. But it doesn’t,” he told The Times.

“This is the first instance that I’ve actually had a conversation like this,” he said. “So, no, I don’t think it is a problem. I don’t think there’s many records out there like this.”

The Public Interest Legal Foundation said it already has other examples from Mr. Artz.

Logan Churchwell, communications and research director for the foundation, said Ms. Shuvalova’s file was one of more than two dozen records gleaned from San Francisco, based on a request for other self-reported noncitizens.

In six of those cases, the noncitizen also had a voting history.

“Our voter registration system masks noncitizens and allows the opportunity to vote until they decide to self-report at their own peril. All of this could have been prevented if states actually verified citizen eligibility upfront,” Mr. Churchwell said.

In response to the inquiries by The Times, Mr. Arntz said the Shuvalova case would be forwarded to San Francisco District Attorney George Gascon for review.

“This voter did not recall completing a registration affidavit in 2012. So then the question would go potentially to whoever organized the petition circulation,” he said.

Mr. Arntz said he was almost certain that nobody had been prosecuted in San Francisco for being a noncitizen on the voter rolls during his 16 years at the department.

“I can’t remember forwarding an allegation that someone was a noncitizen who registered to vote or did vote,” he said.
 
You do remember that President Trump started a committee to investigate this right? Ever wonder what happened to it? It's disbanded b/c it could find absolutely no evidence of widespread voter fraud. I dare say that in spite of this, there are a few cases where illegals vote.

However, I'll do the one thing that you Trumpians absolutely won't. Let's apply a little common sense to the mix. I'm an illegal that snuck across the boarder. Now we all know that I'm a rapist and murderer b/c TRUMP said so. Forget that according to all law enforcement stats I'm actually LESS likely to commit a crime that the average American, TRUMP has spoken so it MUST be true. Anyway, my 1st order of business is NOT to get deported, right? So I'm definitely going to run down to the government offices with my fake paperwork so that I can vote and get food stamps? Please.
 
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It's worth a discussion. We probably should auto-enroll people based on something that can be tied to citizenship. Birth certificates that are checked against Hospital Databases or social security numbers (this is probably a bad idea). This is really outside my area of expertise.

The Washington Times is a good source of information: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/washington-times/

The advocacy group doesn't have a great record, but it's a small sample size: https://www.politifact.com/georgia/...ote-fraud-group-levels-false-charge-corrupte/
 
You do remember that President Trump started a committee to investigate this right? Ever wonder what happened to it? It's disbanded b/c it could find absolutely no evidence of widespread voter fraud. I dare say that in spite of this, there are a few cases where illegals vote.

However, I'll do the one thing that you Trumpians absolutely won't. Let's apply a little common sense to the mix. I'm an illegal that snuck across the boarder. Now we all know that I'm a rapist and murderer b/c TRUMP said so. Forget that according to all law enforcement stats I'm actually LESS likely to commit a crime that the average American, TRUMP has spoken so it MUST be true. Anyway, my 1st order of business is NOT to get deported, right? So I'm definitely going to run down to the government offices with my fake paperwork so that I can vote and get food stamps? Please.

Thats why it is mainly happening in the defacto sanctuary states like CA,NY,VA,,,etc. No fear for the illegals at all in those states. They already come in for food stamps, welfare, free school...etc.
 
Why is it that you Trumpsters are so concerned about voter fraud from illegals voting and yet are not concerned with voter fraud caused by Russian intervention. I will tell you why. Because Trump's ego won't allow him to believe he lost the popular vote and won't allow him to believe that he possibly won because of Russian intervention. Even his own intelliegence chiefs announced the seriousness of the Russian interference. Later the same day Trump described the Russian investigation as a hoax and announced that Putin was not happy about Trumps election win after Putin announced to the world that he favored Trump in the election.
 
Why is it that you Trumpsters are so concerned about voter fraud from illegals voting and yet are not concerned with voter fraud caused by Russian intervention. I will tell you why. Because Trump's ego won't allow him to believe he lost the popular vote and won't allow him to believe that he possibly won because of Russian intervention. Even his own intelliegence chiefs announced the seriousness of the Russian interference. Later the same day Trump described the Russian investigation as a hoax and announced that Putin was not happy about Trumps election win after Putin announced to the world that he favored Trump in the election.


Quit being a big dummy Woody1405. No one at all has has charged that votes were changed or tampered with by Russians. These are two separate discussions. Go back to your safe space snowflake.
 
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What evidence is there that opinions weren’t changed by Russian interference? Snowflake applies to the thin skinned potus who feels compelled to respond with 3rd grade insults to every criticism. Dumbasses apply to those who believe what that lying piece of sh*t says. We have never seen any demagogue like this AH in the White House. Why don’t you respond to the charge that potus called the Russian investigation a hoax after his intelligence chiefs stated that the Russian interference was real, continuing, and serious. It’s a sad day when potus’ own insecurities cause him to ignore an attack on the US and to act like Putin’s poodle.
 
What evidence is there that opinions weren’t changed by Russian interference? Snowflake applies to the thin skinned potus who feels compelled to respond with 3rd grade insults to every criticism. Dumbasses apply to those who believe what that lying piece of sh*t says. We have never seen any demagogue like this AH in the White House. Why don’t you respond to the charge that potus called the Russian investigation a hoax after his intelligence chiefs stated that the Russian interference was real, continuing, and serious. It’s a sad day when potus’ own insecurities cause him to ignore an attack on the US and to act like Putin’s poodle.

Trump is calling the association of him with the Russian investigation the witch hunt and I agree with that. The Russia investigation is a joke if they dont investigate how Hillary and DOJ operatives used foreign agents including Russian to create a false dossier to justify opening a counter intelligence investigation on candidate Trump. None of that crap makes sense, but we have a lot of verified information on it where on the other hand, there is nothing at all linking Trump to Russia after all this time.

- People voted the way they wanted to. The vast majority are locked in on the left or right. The only thing democrats have to whine about is the reopening of the Hillary investigation and Trump had nothing to do with that at all. The FBI field office forced Comey's hand to do that and it didnt change peoples minds anyway just like the Access Hollywood tape didnt change many peoples mind on Trump. Hillary was going to get her butt whupped and there is no excuse...she lost.
- There is no charge of vote tampering by Russian operatives. Do you want to charge Russian mind control now? LOL.
- Just stick to the facts. I opened this thread about illegal immigrants voting and you went back to Trump and Russia....we have a bunch of other threads on that.

Trump is innocent and he is doing an incredible job as POTUS! Woody 1405,,,,please jump on the Trump train,,,,its not slowing down. Our country is doing incredibly well now....be happy about it.
 
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I agree that the Trump train is not slowing down but its running off a cliff. His lies about the Russia Trump tower meeting don't bother you. His lies about his relationships with women outside his marriage don't bother you. His lies about Putin not happy that Trump won don't bother you.
People lie for a couple of reasons. One is they are trying to cover something up; i.e. Trump Tower meeting; lies about sexual affairs. Second they lie because they don't believe people can deal with the truth; i.e. Putins support for his campaign.
I have a large number of people that work for me. I'm sure some of them lie some of the time; however, I would never hire a known liar, nor would I associate with one. To know that we have the lyingest POTUS to ever occupy the Whitehouse is hard to stomach. I don't think he will be there through the end of his term. Bob Mueller is coming for him and it won't be pretty.
 
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I agree that the Trump train is not slowing down but its running off a cliff. His lies about the Russia Trump tower meeting don't bother you. His lies about his relationships with women outside his marriage don't bother you. His lies about Putin not happy that Trump won don't bother you.
People lie for a couple of reasons. One is they are trying to cover something up; i.e. Trump Tower meeting; lies about sexual affairs. Second they lie because they don't believe people can deal with the truth; i.e. Putins support for his campaign.
I have a large number of people that work for me. I'm sure some of them lie some of the time; however, I would never hire a known liar, nor would I associate with one. To know that we have the lyingest POTUS to ever occupy the Whitehouse is hard to stomach. I don't think he will be there through the end of his term. Bob Mueller is coming for him and it won't be pretty.

This trump tower thing is nothing at all. Once again libs trying to make a mountain out of a molehill and I am still waiting on some evidence to link Trump to Russian(hint....dont hold your breath). I have said though before and say again, I support President Trump since he runs the country the way that I agree with. I dont need him to be my preacher or role model. Trump is honest where it counts in that he is fulfilling his campaign promises better than any President in the modern history of our country. You never trumpers are being sore losers. Jump on the Trump Train! Its not going to be stopped! I hated Obama for 8 years and I just sat at home and lived my life. The left is disgraceful in loss....this is basically an orchestrated coup attempt on our lawfully elected POTUS. The 60 million plus that voted for Trump are still here and we aint going nowhere.
 
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This trump tower thing is nothing at all. Once again libs trying to make a mountain out of a molehill and I am still waiting on some evidence to link Trump to Russian(hint....dont hold your breath). I have said though before and say again, I support President Trump since he runs the country the way that I agree with. I dont need him to be my preacher or role model. Trump is honest where it counts in that he is fulfilling his campaign promises better than any President in the modern history of our country. You never trumpers are being sore losers. Jump on the Trump Train! Its not going to be stopped! I hated Obama for 8 years and I just sat at home and lived my life. The left is disgraceful in loss....this is basically an orchestrated coup attempt on our lawfully elected POTUS. The 60 million plus that voted for Trump are still here and we aint going nowhere.
You really need to separate your party from your identity. Otherwise all the facts in the world won't mean anything to you. Trump is not honest. He lies day in and day out. He doesn't represent Republican ideals or those of the United States. He will not find the gates of Heaven open to him with the way he has treated his wives or his family.
 
This trump tower thing is nothing at all. Once again libs trying to make a mountain out of a molehill and I am still waiting on some evidence to link Trump to Russian(hint....dont hold your breath). I have said though before and say again, I support President Trump since he runs the country the way that I agree with. I dont need him to be my preacher or role model. Trump is honest where it counts in that he is fulfilling his campaign promises better than any President in the modern history of our country. You never trumpers are being sore losers. Jump on the Trump Train! Its not going to be stopped! I hated Obama for 8 years and I just sat at home and lived my life. The left is disgraceful in loss....this is basically an orchestrated coup attempt on our lawfully elected POTUS. The 60 million plus that voted for Trump are still here and we aint going nowhere.

You know, you may be right. But here's my problem with the Trump tower thing.

Trump is on record answering reporters about meetings with the Russians just after he was elected. He replied that to the best of his knowledge no one on his campaign had any meetings with the Russians. He also said that he was not in contact with Russians and had not been in years. He said he would call the Russians but he didn't have anyone to call.

That is a LIE (Let's call it TL1... Trump Lie #1) Trump was actually negotiating for a Trump tower in Moscow at the time. So I guess he never contacted the Russians? Yeah. And at least 9 people that were working with Trump during his campaign had contact with the Russians: Paul Manafort, Michael Cohen, Donald Trump Jr., Jared Kushner, George Papadopoulos, Jeff Sessions, Michael Flynn, Carter Page, and J.D. Gordon. Note that EVERY ONE of these guys denied meeting with the Russians until presented with the evidence that they had.

So after he was proved to be wrong by the "fake media". Trump shifted the narrative by saying that there was no Collusion and he dictated a statement to the press that the meeting with the Russians was about Russian children being adopted into the US. This is another LIE (TL #2). Trump Jr's own emails were leaked to the Washington Post showing that the meeting was indeed set up to get dirt on Clinton. Donald Trump Jr. even released the whole email chain including him saying how he "Loved It".

So things stay like this for a while until last weekend when Trump tweets the following:

"Fake News reporting, a complete fabrication, that I am concerned about the meeting my wonderful son, Donald, had in Trump Tower. This was a meeting to get information on an opponent, totally legal and done all the time in politics - and it went nowhere. I did not know about it!"

Now there are a couple of lies in this one (TL#3 and TL#4). Campaigns do not meet with foreign power all the time and it IS illegal to accept anything of value from them (like dirt on your opponent). Sessions tells Trump this in a meeting.

Now this is certainly cause for concern no? I mean you believe that there's a climate conspiracy, a deep state, and probably that Obama was born in Kenya, but you don't believe that Trump knew about this meeting? That Trump Jr was so excited that he brought Trump's campaign manager and son-in-law into the meeting, but never bothered to mention it to his father before hand? AND that Trump said the day before the meeting that he has some important news coming out on Hillary next week? Come on man...

Now, as I've said all along Collusion is not even a crime. There is not a word about it in US Laws. However it IS against the law for a federal campaign to receive anything of value from a foreign national. Donald Trump Jr's OWN EMAILS say that that he planned to do exactly that.

Now if Trump had simply said from the beginning: Sure we met with the Russians to get dirt on Hillary. What's wrong with that? I'd be with you. Sure he broke the law, but at least he was up front about it and I'd be inclined to believe him when he said he didn't know it was illegal. But Trump and company have Lied about this every step of the way. And every time they get caught lying, they just back up a step and lie again. So when Trump says he didn't know, I don't believe him. There's certainly good reason to think that this is just the next lie since his former lawyer Cohen is saying that Trump DID know about the meeting.

Still think that there's not enough to warrant an investigation?
 
You really need to separate your party from your identity. Otherwise all the facts in the world won't mean anything to you. Trump is not honest. He lies day in and day out. He doesn't represent Republican ideals or those of the United States. He will not find the gates of Heaven open to him with the way he has treated his wives or his family.

LOL @Rychek4 thats funny but weak. This is whats so good about Trump! I finally have a POTUS saying what I have been saying for years on most issues! I am only worried about what Trump does as POTUS.
 
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You know, you may be right. But here's my problem with the Trump tower thing.

Trump is on record answering reporters about meetings with the Russians just after he was elected. He replied that to the best of his knowledge no one on his campaign had any meetings with the Russians. He also said that he was not in contact with Russians and had not been in years. He said he would call the Russians but he didn't have anyone to call.

That is a LIE (Let's call it TL1... Trump Lie #1) Trump was actually negotiating for a Trump tower in Moscow at the time. So I guess he never contacted the Russians? Yeah. And at least 9 people that were working with Trump during his campaign had contact with the Russians: Paul Manafort, Michael Cohen, Donald Trump Jr., Jared Kushner, George Papadopoulos, Jeff Sessions, Michael Flynn, Carter Page, and J.D. Gordon. Note that EVERY ONE of these guys denied meeting with the Russians until presented with the evidence that they had.

So after he was proved to be wrong by the "fake media". Trump shifted the narrative by saying that there was no Collusion and he dictated a statement to the press that the meeting with the Russians was about Russian children being adopted into the US. This is another LIE (TL #2). Trump Jr's own emails were leaked to the Washington Post showing that the meeting was indeed set up to get dirt on Clinton. Donald Trump Jr. even released the whole email chain including him saying how he "Loved It".

So things stay like this for a while until last weekend when Trump tweets the following:

"Fake News reporting, a complete fabrication, that I am concerned about the meeting my wonderful son, Donald, had in Trump Tower. This was a meeting to get information on an opponent, totally legal and done all the time in politics - and it went nowhere. I did not know about it!"

Now there are a couple of lies in this one (TL#3 and TL#4). Campaigns do not meet with foreign power all the time and it IS illegal to accept anything of value from them (like dirt on your opponent). Sessions tells Trump this in a meeting.

Now this is certainly cause for concern no? I mean you believe that there's a climate conspiracy, a deep state, and probably that Obama was born in Kenya, but you don't believe that Trump knew about this meeting? That Trump Jr was so excited that he brought Trump's campaign manager and son-in-law into the meeting, but never bothered to mention it to his father before hand? AND that Trump said the day before the meeting that he has some important news coming out on Hillary next week? Come on man...

Now, as I've said all along Collusion is not even a crime. There is not a word about it in US Laws. However it IS against the law for a federal campaign to receive anything of value from a foreign national. Donald Trump Jr's OWN EMAILS say that that he planned to do exactly that.

Now if Trump had simply said from the beginning: Sure we met with the Russians to get dirt on Hillary. What's wrong with that? I'd be with you. Sure he broke the law, but at least he was up front about it and I'd be inclined to believe him when he said he didn't know it was illegal. But Trump and company have Lied about this every step of the way. And every time they get caught lying, they just back up a step and lie again. So when Trump says he didn't know, I don't believe him. There's certainly good reason to think that this is just the next lie since his former lawyer Cohen is saying that Trump DID know about the meeting.

Still think that there's not enough to warrant an investigation?

@hopefultiger13 honestly I would not care if he lied to media about a 20 minute meeting that produced no dirt on Hillary and still would not have if it had and its been investigated more than enough. If Trump had done anything here that produced nothing, then what is Hillary/FBI/DOJ guilty of by producing false dossier spending millions on it and then using it as basis to spy on candidate Trump? You are correct,,,collusion is not a crime and Trump didnt collude anyway. Trump is a winner, he had a winning message and then he won.....period! They have investigated Trump more than enough...imo. One last point,,,,this supposed new Trump Tower news from this past weekend,,,,Trump is on camera saying the exact same thing last year......mainstream media desparate and regurgitating it like new material....LOL.
 
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How do you know it produced nothing? Because Trump and Trump Jr told you so? The same guys that told you there was no meeting... then told you oh yeah there was a meeting but it was about Russian adoptions, THEN told you it was about getting dirt BUT it didn't go anywhere? OK. Sounds legit.

I agree that Trump is doing some really good things. The economy is rocking and that is a great thing. But that doesn't give him card blanc to do whatever he wants to do w/o anyone checking and balancing him. The European bank that bailed him out of his last bankruptcy was underwritten by the Russians. And that's a concern to me. His unwillingness to personally call out the Russians on attacking us is concerning to me. His constant undermining of our DOJ/FBI and our intelligence agencies is concerning as well.

But at least you are honest about what you expect out of him. As long as your 401K stays fat and happy and he does things that you agree with, he can do whatever else he wants and screw whoever he wants..
 
How do you know it produced nothing? Because Trump and Trump Jr told you so? The same guys that told you there was no meeting... then told you oh yeah there was a meeting but it was about Russian adoptions, THEN told you it was about getting dirt BUT it didn't go anywhere? OK. Sounds legit.

I agree that Trump is doing some really good things. The economy is rocking and that is a great thing. But that doesn't give him card blanc to do whatever he wants to do w/o anyone checking and balancing him. The European bank that bailed him out of his last bankruptcy was underwritten by the Russians. And that's a concern to me. His unwillingness to personally call out the Russians on attacking us is concerning to me. His constant undermining of our DOJ/FBI and our intelligence agencies is concerning as well.

But at least you are honest about what you expect out of him. As long as your 401K stays fat and happy and he does things that you agree with, he can do whatever else he wants and screw whoever he wants..

They have interviewed multiple parties at that meeting....all 20 minutes of it. The Russian woman comes in there and starts talking about the Magnitsky Act which Russia wants rescinded. This Russian lawyer woman also is associated with Fusion GPS btw. Nothing came from this meeting, but please give us the goods if you know otherwise.

Donald Trump has never filed for personal bankruptcy. He has had some of his many businesses file for bankruptcy. He has never needed a bailout for himself. He has undoubtedly worked with financial interests all over the world in business dealings
https://www.snopes.com/news/2016/08/01/donald-trumps-bankruptcies/

Trump is not about hurting or getting over on people. He is running the country the way it should. MAGA is what it says...he is working for all of America! Record low levels of unemployment. Economy running hot. Providing jobs for the citizens is not screwing people over.
 
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Add this to your economic facts. Two trillion dollars added to national debt because of the tax cuts financed by our children and grandchildren. 12 billion bribe paid to farmers because Trumpe effed up their markets with his tariffs. BMW, Boeing, and Volvo hurting because of his tariffs. And he gets in a
peeing contest with Lebron James during a week when James donated $50,000,000 to create a school in Akron for needy children. In fairness Trump also founded a school, but not for needy children. And Trump's school ended with a 25,000,000 settlement because he screwed his students out of tuition. You're right. What a guy!
 
I finally have a POTUS saying what I have been saying for years on most issues!

Oh so he says what you have been saying?

On Nato:
Which one were you saying?

When he decided to run for president which were you saying about Trump:
Cause you are covered either way.

How about Trumps opinion on some other Republicans:
Which one were you saying?

How about Ron Paul? Were you saying he has good ideas or not?
I know I like Ron Paul.

Or Mitt Romney, which were you saying?
Cause I guess you can pretty much take either side.

Where did you come down on the Obama Presidency?
  • “Here’s a man that not only got elected, I think he’s doing a really good job.” (CNN, April 15, 2009)
  • “Oh, yes, he’s a champion. I mean, he won against all odds. If you would have looked—when he first announced, people were giving him initially no chance. And he’s just done something that’s amazing. He’s totally a champion.” (CNN, April 15, 2009)
Trump was a big fan at one time.

How about how Trump views himself, which were you saying:
Seems like a flexible position.

When you said stuff about presidential debates was it:
Either way I guess you are correct.

As a Republican I know you hate Eminent domain, or wait, do you:
I guess we can ALL say that Trump says the things we say. Because Trump just says.... all the things. Because he lies.
 
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Oh so he says what you have been saying?

On Nato:
Which one were you saying?

When he decided to run for president which were you saying about Trump:
Cause you are covered either way.

How about Trumps opinion on some other Republicans:
Which one were you saying?

How about Ron Paul? Were you saying he has good ideas or not?
I know I like Ron Paul.

Or Mitt Romney, which were you saying?
Cause I guess you can pretty much take either side.

Where did you come down on the Obama Presidency?
  • “Here’s a man that not only got elected, I think he’s doing a really good job.” (CNN, April 15, 2009)
  • “Oh, yes, he’s a champion. I mean, he won against all odds. If you would have looked—when he first announced, people were giving him initially no chance. And he’s just done something that’s amazing. He’s totally a champion.” (CNN, April 15, 2009)
Trump was a big fan at one time.

How about how Trump views himself, which were you saying:
Seems like a flexible position.

When you said stuff about presidential debates was it:
Either way I guess you are correct.

As a Republican I know you hate Eminent domain, or wait, do you:
I guess we can ALL say that Trump says the things we say. Because Trump just says.... all the things. Because he lies.

@Rychek4 you put too much work into this one! LOL. Big Bad Don is trolling yall! We dont care about this...its just posturing and being the Don!
 
@Rychek4 you put too much work into this one! LOL. Big Bad Don is trolling yall! We dont care about this...its just posturing and being the Don!

Reasonable people say "yea, he says dumb shit, but I like that he's doing xyz.."

Not you though.
 
Reasonable people say "yea, he says dumb shit, but I like that he's doing xyz.."

Not you though.

I have said that repeatedly @iceheart08. You yahoos keep coming back with wild responses saying stuff like this. I support POTUS for what he does! I enjoy his comments btw!! I would feel cheated if he got off twitter! He is Big Bad Don!!
 
@Rychek4 you put too much work into this one! LOL. Big Bad Don is trolling yall! We dont care about this...its just posturing and being the Don!
The response I would expect from someone that has no reasonable response. When confronted with evidence they deflect or change the discussion. You make a good ostrich, with your head in the sand.
 
So @TigerGrowls you started the thread, accept the burden of proof for a minute. How many actual cases of 'illegals' voting in elections have been found and prosecuted?? Give me that number versus the total number of votes cast??

You want to really educate yourself on the issue consider these sources: this is a nonpartisan research center https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/debunking-voter-fraud-myth

and here is the master list from super conservative Heritage Foundation that tries to document every single voter fraud act (hint** more voter fraud comes from citizens than any 'illegals') https://www.heritage.org/sites/default/files/voterfraud_download/VoterFraudCases_5.pdf

Then ask your freedom loving, constitution loving self--why am I allowing the government (the one you want to keep off your back in almost every single instance imaginable) to require and dictate and regulate for citizens their right to vote? I'm sure you hate the idea of the government regulating the right to bear arms and requiring background checks or IDs, etc, no?

Well the founders and the constitution states there is a right to vote more than any other phrase/idea/concept. It doesn't say only if you show up with a valid ID the government makes you obtain--it says if you are a citizen you can vote. If you aren't a citizen and you vote then you go to jail, but the constitution doesn't give the existing govt the power or authority to regulate a citizens freedom to vote.

If you really love freedom and hate the govt, why are you letting that govt regulate your right to vote? (and the above sources prove in the current system there is no existing harm, in fact, there is ample evidence that requiring IDs suppresses a hundred times the number of minuscule abuses--the other part of this is there is historical evidence that when the govt takes this power they can abuse it with things like poll taxes or literacy tests, etc. And for the record if an individual state wants to issue every citizen in the state an ID card that the citizen doesn't pay for, that comes with voter registration-I am on board. Also moving to completely mailing of ballots is the way to get rid of this entire silly argument and I wish we spent as much time talking about how to secure voting tech against foreign interference as we do the nonexistent 'illegal' vote.)

I await your newly educated opinion...
 
So @TigerGrowls you started the thread, accept the burden of proof for a minute. How many actual cases of 'illegals' voting in elections have been found and prosecuted?? Give me that number versus the total number of votes cast??

You want to really educate yourself on the issue consider these sources: this is a nonpartisan research center https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/debunking-voter-fraud-myth

and here is the master list from super conservative Heritage Foundation that tries to document every single voter fraud act (hint** more voter fraud comes from citizens than any 'illegals') https://www.heritage.org/sites/default/files/voterfraud_download/VoterFraudCases_5.pdf

Then ask your freedom loving, constitution loving self--why am I allowing the government (the one you want to keep off your back in almost every single instance imaginable) to require and dictate and regulate for citizens their right to vote? I'm sure you hate the idea of the government regulating the right to bear arms and requiring background checks or IDs, etc, no?

Well the founders and the constitution states there is a right to vote more than any other phrase/idea/concept. It doesn't say only if you show up with a valid ID the government makes you obtain--it says if you are a citizen you can vote. If you aren't a citizen and you vote then you go to jail, but the constitution doesn't give the existing govt the power or authority to regulate a citizens freedom to vote.

If you really love freedom and hate the govt, why are you letting that govt regulate your right to vote? (and the above sources prove in the current system there is no existing harm, in fact, there is ample evidence that requiring IDs suppresses a hundred times the number of minuscule abuses--the other part of this is there is historical evidence that when the govt takes this power they can abuse it with things like poll taxes or literacy tests, etc. And for the record if an individual state wants to issue every citizen in the state an ID card that the citizen doesn't pay for, that comes with voter registration-I am on board. Also moving to completely mailing of ballots is the way to get rid of this entire silly argument and I wish we spent as much time talking about how to secure voting tech against foreign interference as we do the nonexistent 'illegal' vote.)

I await your newly educated opinion...

Hi Clemben! This is a reasonable post, but I still cannot agree with it. Its a proven fact that people love to cheat the system and will at every opportunity. CA, VA, and NY are practically begging illegals to vote in my opinion. I will concede I have not hard data to support it, but my gut tells me that yes millions are voting illegally in these states. I do not support any voting, or other rights for illegal immigrants coming over the US borders. They need to ship them out where they can get in line to come in legally.
 
I will concede I have not hard data to support it, but my gut tells me that yes millions are voting illegally in these states.
Wait, are we okay with making policy based on gut feelings now? How do we decide between my gut feelings and yours?
 
Wait, are we okay with making policy based on gut feelings now? How do we decide between my gut feelings and yours?

Yes...ok to make policy based on MY gut decisions...LOL. The issue of potential illegal voters is separate from illegal immigration and how it should be reformed. Its not even a debate that non citizens should not vote and I know you are not arguing that. Its just an argument over whether they are or not and how they could be stopped if doing it.
 
Yes...ok to make policy based on MY gut decisions...LOL. The issue of potential illegal voters is separate from illegal immigration and how it should be reformed. Its not even a debate that non citizens should not vote and I know you are not arguing that. Its just an argument over whether they are or not and how they could be stopped if doing it.
I think the debate really is about the scale of the crimes relative to the scale of the response.
 
Hi Clemben! This is a reasonable post, but I still cannot agree with it. Its a proven fact that people love to cheat the system and will at every opportunity. CA, VA, and NY are practically begging illegals to vote in my opinion. I will concede I have not hard data to support it, but my gut tells me that yes millions are voting illegally in these states. I do not support any voting, or other rights for illegal immigrants coming over the US borders. They need to ship them out where they can get in line to come in legally.

That about sums up you and @orangelvis in these threads. "It is a fact that this thing happens, in my opinion. I confess I don't have any data to back up my claim but my gut is good enough for me."
 
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Hi Clemben! This is a reasonable post, but I still cannot agree with it. Its a proven fact that people love to cheat the system and will at every opportunity. CA, VA, and NY are practically begging illegals to vote in my opinion. I will concede I have not hard data to support it, but my gut tells me that yes millions are voting illegally in these states. I do not support any voting, or other rights for illegal immigrants coming over the US borders. They need to ship them out where they can get in line to come in legally.

I don't think anyone supports illegal immigrants voting. That would be against the constitution and would never be allowed by the courts even if a law passed--so no worries there...(I agree mostly but do think that migrant workers or 'illegals' should be given a way to pay taxes while working here so that corporations don't profit off of them and not have to pay any benefits or taxes--this is one of the ways that a free market capitalist system has been able to run on hyper drive the way that Repubs and most dems these days love, but it can hurt the working poor who are citizens in this country).

I don't disagree with your last statement either but I think that if children came into the country at a young age and we set up a program for them to give them a pathway to citizenship then we should follow through then that might be a good idea. I'm also not against those seeking legit asylum from being murdered or raped from gangs like MS-13 if properly vetted--I supported those fleeing communism for the same reasons (Ronald Reagan did too!).

I have a friend who was from England (the most british male, affluent, white chap--even Stephen Miller would like him--ha) that came to the states legally with a working visa thing, immediately applied to become a citizen, and got married to an american girl and had two kids. He was working with a good job for the mayors office and won some local race for another office. It took him 5 thousand something days (he counted them...) to become a citizen. Over 10 years I believe.

That seems insane to me...so yes, legal immigration, but that system needs to be reformed so that it is more efficient for everyone while still having proper vetting and extreme vetting.

I also just can't stand it when Melania Trump uses chain migration to make her parents citizens when the president was just railing against chain migration a couple months earlier--what is good for the goose...no? Smells of hypocrisy, which I just can't stand...
 
I don't think anyone supports illegal immigrants voting. That would be against the constitution and would never be allowed by the courts even if a law passed--so no worries there...(I agree mostly but do think that migrant workers or 'illegals' should be given a way to pay taxes while working here so that corporations don't profit off of them and not have to pay any benefits or taxes--this is one of the ways that a free market capitalist system has been able to run on hyper drive the way that Repubs and most dems these days love, but it can hurt the working poor who are citizens in this country).

I don't disagree with your last statement either but I think that if children came into the country at a young age and we set up a program for them to give them a pathway to citizenship then we should follow through then that might be a good idea. I'm also not against those seeking legit asylum from being murdered or raped from gangs like MS-13 if properly vetted--I supported those fleeing communism for the same reasons (Ronald Reagan did too!).

I have a friend who was from England (the most british male, affluent, white chap--even Stephen Miller would like him--ha) that came to the states legally with a working visa thing, immediately applied to become a citizen, and got married to an american girl and had two kids. He was working with a good job for the mayors office and won some local race for another office. It took him 5 thousand something days (he counted them...) to become a citizen. Over 10 years I believe.

That seems insane to me...so yes, legal immigration, but that system needs to be reformed so that it is more efficient for everyone while still having proper vetting and extreme vetting.

I also just can't stand it when Melania Trump uses chain migration to make her parents citizens when the president was just railing against chain migration a couple months earlier--what is good for the goose...no? Smells of hypocrisy, which I just can't stand...

Nice post @clemben Very reasonable and i can agree with all of this related to immigration reform. I would support an expanded and generous legal immigration reform with expedited completion of attaining US citizenship within reason.
 
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