OT: Amazon HQ2 - NY Budget Director Comments

[PlayTimesOver]

The biggest problem facing America right now is the ignorance of our voters fed by the two party system. People are lazy when it comes to seeking out info and they are vindictive. Once allegiance has been made to a party or a politician, the typical American is too weak to break away and admit when they have been duped. They would prefer to believe lies and misinformation to justify their choice instead. Sometimes the facts are not pleasant and the means that we need to deal with them are even less desirable and maybe even personally humbling.

The biggest problem with America is that politicians are lining up left and right to feed the ignorant biases of their voters to maintain power. Noone is willing to speak truth or deal in facts because that won't get you elected. Once a voter pledges allegiance to a politician or party they lose the objectivity to hold them accountable to the facts and instead are only interested in validating the reason they supported them. To disagree or say they were wrong is too embarrassing so they continue to bury their head in their bullshit.

You've got AOC on the left feeding her socialist followers on the idea that NY was going to pay Amazon $3 billion of their citizens money to come to NY and that NY actually won financially by running Amazon and the tens of billions of dollars in positive financial impact they would have had on NY. Feeding the idea that the Green New Deal is achievable within the financial parameters and timelines as drawn. Feeding the idea that free healthcare and a government living wage for all can be achieved with no significant impact on their citizens taxes and America's economy. Or that mere rounding and accounting errors by the DOD would pay for 2/3 of Medicare for all.

Conversely, you have Donald Trump and the extreme right feeding his base on the idea that immigrant caravans are "attacking" America. That women, children and young men with their sticks and stones are a greater threat than North Korea or Russia. That building a great wall on our border would cut off illegal drugs even though 90% are seized at legal points of entry. That climate change is a fallacy and there is no impact that humans can take to impact it. That food stamps are running up the deficit spending and not the tax reform bill that was essentially a boon to the top 1% while adding trillions to the debt in coming years. That America will be a safer place by disengaging from our allies and the rest of the world and embracing the likes of Kim Jong-un and Vladimir Putin.

I can go on and on and on for both sides. America needs a reality check and they aren't getting it from their politicians because they don't want to deal in facts. Until the people of this country move to the middle and realize that the leaders from the extreme right and extreme left, whether politicians or online bloggers or fanatical organizations, are feeding them bullshit by the buckets we are going to continue to descend down a very dangerous path.

John Adams said, "There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution."

George Washington agreed with Adams and further warned "It agitates the Community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions."

LOL. Who said they were attacking? Everyone knows they aren’t attacking. But yes, in the long run, that definitely poses just as big a threat as Russia and China. They are right next door. It’s not like Trump isn’t working on all three issues.

I do agree with a lot of what you said. I’m a fairly liberal person. The difference I see in the two parties are one extreme is getting smaller and the other party has the extreme taking over as the majority. One is drifting towards socialism and is actually having “democratic” socialists win elections. Trump is easily the most centrist president in my lifetime. I think that shows the party as a whole us drifting that way. Socialism is easily the biggest threat to this country. Not Mexico, Russia or China. All great empires fall from the inside.

 

[Pluffmudd]

Greenville is the 4th fastest growing city in the country. But the upstates infrastructure is a total mess, and the construction going on now seems reactive instead of proactive. So in a few years when it's all finished, we get to start again.

They could be the fastest growing city and it wouldn’t matter. There is difference between rate of growth and population. Besides, a small talent pool (by comparison) and lots of competition for that talent exists.

 

[scotchtiger]

The biggest problem facing America right now is the ignorance of our voters fed by the two party system. People are lazy when it comes to seeking out info and they are vindictive. Once allegiance has been made to a party or a politician, the typical American is too weak to break away and admit when they have been duped. They would prefer to believe lies and misinformation to justify their choice instead. Sometimes the facts are not pleasant and the means that we need to deal with them are even less desirable and maybe even personally humbling.

The biggest problem with America is that politicians are lining up left and right to feed the ignorant biases of their voters to maintain power. Noone is willing to speak truth or deal in facts because that won't get you elected. Once a voter pledges allegiance to a politician or party they lose the objectivity to hold them accountable to the facts and instead are only interested in validating the reason they supported them. To disagree or say they were wrong is too embarrassing so they continue to bury their head in their bullshit.

You've got AOC on the left feeding her socialist followers on the idea that NY was going to pay Amazon $3 billion of their citizens money to come to NY and that NY actually won financially by running Amazon and the tens of billions of dollars in positive financial impact they would have had on NY. Feeding the idea that the Green New Deal is achievable within the financial parameters and timelines as drawn. Feeding the idea that free healthcare and a government living wage for all can be achieved with no significant impact on their citizens taxes and America's economy. Or that mere rounding and accounting errors by the DOD would pay for 2/3 of Medicare for all.

Conversely, you have Donald Trump and the extreme right feeding his base on the idea that immigrant caravans are "attacking" America. That women, children and young men with their sticks and stones are a greater threat than North Korea or Russia. That building a great wall on our border would cut off illegal drugs even though 90% are seized at legal points of entry. That climate change is a fallacy and there is no impact that humans can take to impact it. That food stamps are running up the deficit spending and not the tax reform bill that was essentially a boon to the top 1% while adding trillions to the debt in coming years. That America will be a safer place by disengaging from our allies and the rest of the world and embracing the likes of Kim Jong-un and Vladimir Putin.

I can go on and on and on for both sides. America needs a reality check and they aren't getting it from their politicians because they don't want to deal in facts. Until the people of this country move to the middle and realize that the leaders from the extreme right and extreme left, whether politicians or online bloggers or fanatical organizations, are feeding them bullshit by the buckets we are going to continue to descend down a very dangerous path.

John Adams said, "There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution."

George Washington agreed with Adams and further warned "It agitates the Community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions."

Great post. We don't always see eye to eye, but this is very accurate perspective. Our current system has resulted in unfortunate polarization and worse yet, the loons on both sides have too strong a voice. I will say that socialist ideals, permanent entitlement programs and an unfixable growth in scope of the government concern me far, far more than a border wall.

 

[iceheart08]

LOL @the changing of the guard. The liberals are getting pushed out by the socialists they helped breed. The uninformed and lazy have found a bigger Santa Claus than the traditional liberal, that being the modern librosocialist.

Of course you know more about the inner workings of the dem party than I do...

 

[MBRO]

LOL @the changing of the guard. The liberals are getting pushed out by the socialists they helped breed. The uninformed and lazy have found a bigger Santa Claus than the traditional liberal, that being the modern librosocialist.

Sounds a lot like the Tea Party vs. the establishment Republicans eight years ago before we discovered that their belief in limited government and fiscal conservatism was simply a right-wing populist scam.

 

[PlayTimesOver]

Lol. Don’t you have a confederate rally to be at somewhere?

I do. Sorry it upsets you.

I’m not going to walk away for having the balls to provide a different perspective. Amazon had a chance to truly revive a city that needs help. They blew it by targeting a liberal city that is already wealthy enough. There are tons of poor conservative states that could be saved by amazon opening up an HQ2 in their state. He should go to one of them since he’s such a glorious job creator.

I do agree in that they should have picked a more tax friendly state. Maybe Texas for example. Plenty of large metros to go to. But New York sure needs them. The unfunded pension problem is going to start biting very soon.

Selfishly, I was hoping it would be New York so as to not draw even more liberals to Texas. Once Texas is blue, we screwed.

 

[padtigers]

The biggest problem facing America right now is the ignorance of our voters fed by the two party system. People are lazy when it comes to seeking out info and they are vindictive. Once allegiance has been made to a party or a politician, the typical American is too weak to break away and admit when they have been duped. They would prefer to believe lies and misinformation to justify their choice instead. Sometimes the facts are not pleasant and the means that we need to deal with them are even less desirable and maybe even personally humbling.

The biggest problem with America is that politicians are lining up left and right to feed the ignorant biases of their voters to maintain power. Noone is willing to speak truth or deal in facts because that won't get you elected. Once a voter pledges allegiance to a politician or party they lose the objectivity to hold them accountable to the facts and instead are only interested in validating the reason they supported them. To disagree or say they were wrong is too embarrassing so they continue to bury their head in their bullshit.

You've got AOC on the left feeding her socialist followers on the idea that NY was going to pay Amazon $3 billion of their citizens money to come to NY and that NY actually won financially by running Amazon and the tens of billions of dollars in positive financial impact they would have had on NY. Feeding the idea that the Green New Deal is achievable within the financial parameters and timelines as drawn. Feeding the idea that free healthcare and a government living wage for all can be achieved with no significant impact on their citizens taxes and America's economy. Or that mere rounding and accounting errors by the DOD would pay for 2/3 of Medicare for all.

Conversely, you have Donald Trump and the extreme right feeding his base on the idea that immigrant caravans are "attacking" America. That women, children and young men with their sticks and stones are a greater threat than North Korea or Russia. That building a great wall on our border would cut off illegal drugs even though 90% are seized at legal points of entry. That climate change is a fallacy and there is no impact that humans can take to impact it. That food stamps are running up the deficit spending and not the tax reform bill that was essentially a boon to the top 1% while adding trillions to the debt in coming years. That America will be a safer place by disengaging from our allies and the rest of the world and embracing the likes of Kim Jong-un and Vladimir Putin.

I can go on and on and on for both sides. America needs a reality check and they aren't getting it from their politicians because they don't want to deal in facts. Until the people of this country move to the middle and realize that the leaders from the extreme right and extreme left, whether politicians or online bloggers or fanatical organizations, are feeding them bullshit by the buckets we are going to continue to descend down a very dangerous path.

John Adams said, "There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution."

George Washington agreed with Adams and further warned "It agitates the Community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions."

I agree with a lot of what you posted. I am a libertarian for the most part and my biggest fear is that both sides are entrenched in power and money. More so now than ever. I want the government out of my life from a personal day to day basis. They need to look in the mirror and figure out what WE elected them to do. They work for us. Period. Recently you had AOC say on camera that she was the boss now. That should scare the shit out of anyone out there with half a brain. Not that she carries that much power but they we have an elected official stating this in public. She, like everyone else in DC, works for us. The People. DC in general has lost sight of that. Lobbyists and back room deals rule DC now. I will say this about Trump. His presence has exposed a lot of people in DC for what they really are. Just a bunch of liars and thieves. Neither side has our best interest at heart and once all of us realize that maybe we can demand some change. I would like to see term limits and a grace period after that time is up before an elected official can start lobbying. I do find it funny. The Dems wanna see a billionaires tax records once he became a politician. I wanna see a politicians tax records that became a millionaire. I do not feel our Founding Fathers envisioned a set up where a lifer could become wealthy while serving in an elected position.

 

[clemsonu96]

Traffic here is already terrible, with no good plan to fix it. Schools are overcrowded and they arent building new ones fast enough. And home prices are rising at an unsustainable pace. I don't even want to imagine what would have happened if Amazon came here.

They need to go to some dying city to try to revive it, where they will be appreciated, ie Detroit, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Chicago, etc.

It’s happening everywhere. And it has been for a while. Here in Charleston we don’t have the traffic you do yet even though the existing infrastructure will make it seem so. The problem is infrastructure is just different here. You can’t expand roads without hitting a bridge at some point. And that’s when the costs skyrockets. But we just keep on building new homes everywhere.

Here’s an illustration as to how long this has been going on. My son is 17. When he was in kindergarten his school announced they were going to build a new school. The principal and superintendent had a meeting to give the details. Everyone was so excited about it. They say the school will take two years to build and that it will be able to service 500 and something students. They had a specific number. At one point they say the number of kids currently enrolled was 450 students. I catch in the presentation that the number of kids enrolling has increased by 12% each of the last 5 years. So, I did the math and raised my hand and asked “so, we have 450 students now and have a growth rate of 12% a year and the school that will be ready in two years will hold 500 and something? So, the school was going to already be too small?”

This was 2007. They told us that the school was approved in 2002 and that they approved a plan soon after and that plan was based on what the school needed then. I said, well, that doesn’t sound like a plan. That sounds like a reaction. But that’s how it works.

 

[yeti24]

When the coastlines are underwater those of us that saw it coming will all be saying I told you so.

That’s great I hope you get flooded out first. Years ago I purchased millions of hectares of land inland of the rising waters. I will become the first trillionaire when the world ends in 12 years. Thanks for the 12 year heads up on doomsday. Is Vegas taking bets yet?

 

[yeti24]

You think a lot of people averaging $150k salary want to live in some below average city in the Midwest? Talented people want to live in a thriving city.

New York City is becoming a shithole and is still crazy expensive (taxes, real estate, etc). I lived there for 11 years til 2016 so I would know. $150k a year living in any decent neighborhood in NYC means you are working class. I loved my time there but I would NOT do it on only $150k a year.

 

[NorthStateTiger]

Traffic here is already terrible, with no good plan to fix it. Schools are overcrowded and they arent building new ones fast enough. And home prices are rising at an unsustainable pace. I don't even want to imagine what would have happened if Amazon came here.

They need to go to some dying city to try to revive it, where they will be appreciated, ie Detroit, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Chicago, etc.

Nailed it. Raleigh is the same way. So glad they didn’t come here. This area isn’t hurting for jobs as is. We don’t need another 100k that we don’t have houses, roads etc to accommodate

 

[PCHOI]

I read every comment on this thread and I’m amazed at how little people pay attention to the news. This thread reinforces my belief people only read headlines or taglines from their source of choice and don’t bother to read the details anymore. I wanted to chime in because my role is to study Amazon as they build out their fleet of delivery units. Slowly but surely, Amazon is becoming a delivery company which is really interesting/scary. If you paid attention to their latest earnings call, they even mention their competition being your well known parcel services. They even bought a large number of airline fleets and are contracting out delivery personnel...

Amazon had a very specific criteria for what they were looking for in their second headquarters, dubbed HQ2. At the top of my head, the list ranged anywhere from talent pool, access to large transportation hubs, infrastructure, community relations, etc...

To the poster who said they should move to some Midwest state ... ??? The only Midwest cities that could meet any of their criteria is Chicago. But the weather conditions and location could’ve been a turn off.

I was sure DC was at the top of their list but I also thought Austin, Dallas, Atlanta, and Nashville made sense for them too.

I worked in DC and my friends hate that Amazon is moving there but I think they’re being very shortsighted. All they care about is commute. But long-term, what Amazon can do for the city and school systems is incredible. Think of all the high level talent that will move there - the secondary and tertiary effects impact schools. The number of employees who move there will boost sales for SMBs. Tax revenue will increase. Yes, traffic will suck and some might be priced out as rental properties and the housing market increases there but the net impact is very positive

As an Atlanta native, I love my city. Yes, we have our issues and our infrastructure is poor. Our traffic is horrible already. But I still contend IF Amazon moved South of the Capital, towards Peachtree City, it could’ve been a tremendous win for our city. Amazon could pull talent from Emory, GT, UGA, GSU, and KSU. Delta and the world’s best (opinion/but busiest airport) is right here. You’d be neighbors with Coke, UPS, The Home Depot, Porsche, Mercedes, and CFA. Housing around the area is affordable. The weather is great. And it’s a right to work State with low taxes. If they moved to the old warehouses by Riverside, that would’ve been perfect

 

[touchdownbob]

On a positive note, they (Google) are building here in Austin. So, there's that . . .

 

[PAWrocka]

I read every comment on this thread and I’m amazed at how little people pay attention to the news. This thread reinforces my belief people only read headlines or taglines from their source of choice and don’t bother to read the details anymore. I wanted to chime in because my role is to study Amazon as they build out their fleet of delivery units. Slowly but surely, Amazon is becoming a delivery company which is really interesting/scary. If you paid attention to their latest earnings call, they even mention their competition being your well known parcel services. They even bought a large number of airline fleets and are contracting out delivery personnel...

Amazon had a very specific criteria for what they were looking for in their second headquarters, dubbed HQ2. At the top of my head, the list ranged anywhere from talent pool, access to large transportation hubs, infrastructure, community relations, etc...

To the poster who said they should move to some Midwest state ... ??? The only Midwest cities that could meet any of their criteria is Chicago. But the weather conditions and location could’ve been a turn off.

I was sure DC was at the top of their list but I also thought Austin, Dallas, Atlanta, and Nashville made sense for them too.

I worked in DC and my friends hate that Amazon is moving there but I think they’re being very shortsighted. All they care about is commute. But long-term, what Amazon can do for the city and school systems is incredible. Think of all the high level talent that will move there - the secondary and tertiary effects impact schools. The number of employees who move there will boost sales for SMBs. Tax revenue will increase. Yes, traffic will suck and some might be priced out as rental properties and the housing market increases there but the net impact is very positive

As an Atlanta native, I love my city. Yes, we have our issues and our infrastructure is poor. Our traffic is horrible already. But I still contend IF Amazon moved South of the Capital, towards Peachtree City, it could’ve been a tremendous win for our city. Amazon could pull talent from Emory, GT, UGA, GSU, and KSU. Delta and the world’s best (opinion/but busiest airport) is right here. You’d be neighbors with Coke, UPS, The Home Depot, Porsche, Mercedes, and CFA. Housing around the area is affordable. The weather is great. And it’s a right to work State with low taxes. If they moved to the old warehouses by Riverside, that would’ve been perfect

All of these things ^

I’m a hour commute from Northern VA, BUT there are a TON of people out be by that makes that insane drive everyday. AOC’s blunder is my regions gain.

What this means for me personally, besides higher property values, is that I’ll take more international flights from BWI vs IAD ....... traffic is about to get even worse

 

[1Clemzunfan]

LOL. Who said they were attacking? Everyone knows they aren’t attacking.

Who? You know who. Whether it's an "attack", and "assault", an "invasion", or whatever else it was called by our president, he said it warranted sending thousands of our military to meet these invaders with force to defend our country. He said they had already "roughed up the Mexican police and military" but wouldnt do that to ours. Those are our president's words and terms, not mine.

Oh yeah... and don't forget the terrorists that were among them as evidenced by their prayer rugs. LOL

I know they werent invaders and werent attacking our nation, you know that, and Trump did too, but that didnt stop him from using those words to weaponize and rile up his base with a bunch of hyperbolic bulls### all for political gain. Again, no different than what AOC does with her lack of facts to weaponize her base. Neither of their flocks of sheep seem to know or care. They just know they hate each other.

 

[jimbob1019]

I get the worship of the wealthy but bezos is worth 130 billion. There is absolutely no incentive to make any more money. He’s already the most powerful person on earth that’s not the US President.

New York may have lost potential growth, but the city is already very strong and has plenty of people already. It doesn’t “need” a huge company to come in and drive people out. Like I said, any mid size rust belt city would get 100x the benefit from an Amazon HQ2 than NYC, along with probably better tax benefits for the company just off being in a red state.

You’re just plagiarizing that idiot Bill Maher now.

 

[iceheart08]

Because she basically lied to them. Maybe lie is not the word, she just didn’t understand.
1. There were going to be 10,000 or so union jobs.
2. She really thought that they were paying amazon 3 billion to move there. She thought that the state had 3 billion just laying around in the coffers. She said they could use that money to help locally like fixing up schools, roads and other infrastructure, give state employees raises and help local business. She didn’t understand that the money didn’t exist and was only coming if Amazon did.
3. These tax breaks had already been voted on and approved in the legislature prior to any of this so they weren’t doing anything new. The majority of the state wanted this and it wasn’t really close. The mayor and governor are irate. The state from the treasury department pretty much said she was an idiot and listened to the twitter mob. I also believe Amazon had to meet a minimum amount of tax revenue before they were given the break. Literally nothing to lose.

But she lost and lost big. All those improvemts that she wanted would have come, not now. The 27 billion doesn’t include revenue from local businesses that would have thrived with better infrastructure and more customers around. It wouldn’t have been a huge influx, but it would have definitely helped. Other start ups and companies moving in would have provided more revenue. Would have been more Union blue collar jobs for infrastructure/construction.

In the end, they voted this way most likely because she fed them completely wrong information. To be honest, I don’t think she wants people to get ahead and have more intelligent people in her district. Anyone with an IQ over 80 wouldn’t vote for her. She needs people to be dependent on the government. That’s socialism. She just has the economic acumen of a 29 year old bartender. She doesn’t realize she actually needs revenue to give these people all the crap they want.

And @Cris_Ard, don’t argue with John. He is either trolling or retarded. I’m leaning towards trolling. Either way, it’s a waste of time.

Play time doesn't feel over to me...

 

[PlayTimesOver]

Whether it's an "attack", and "assault", an "invasion", or whatever else it was called by our president, he said it warranted sending thousands of our military to meet these invaders with force to defend our country. He said they had already "roughed up the Mexican police and military" but wouldnt do that to ours. Those are our president's words and terms, not mine.

Oh yeah... and don't forget the terrorists that were among them as evidenced by their prayer rugs. LOL

I know they werent invaders and werent attacking our nation, you know that, and Trump did too, but that didnt stop him from using those words to weaponize and rile up his base with a bunch of hyperbolic bulls### all for political gain. Again, no different than what AOC does with her lack of facts to weaponize her base. Neither of their flocks of sheep seem to know or care. They just know they hate each other.

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Well in his defense, prayer rugs are super lethal. Politicians say a lot. You’d have to be a retard to believe believe the hyperbole. But not quite as dumb as believing the world will end in 12 years. I mean I can’t stand Feinstein but that poor lady had kids and their teachers/parents in her office asking her to support the GND. If you haven’t seen, look it up. It is quite the comedy. Unfortunately, we have plenty of idiots. I think it was George Carlin...imagine how dumb the average person is and realize that half are dumber.

But I’ll save my statistical/financial breakdown of why I support a wall and better border security for another day. As well as visa reform and nixing the anchor baby crap.

 

[PlayTimesOver]

Play time doesn't feel over to me...

Sadly not. It seems that’s all that goes on in DC.

 

[hinds62]

I get the worship of the wealthy but bezos is worth 130 billion. There is absolutely no incentive to make any more money. He’s already the most powerful person on earth that’s not the US President.

New York may have lost potential growth, but the city is already very strong and has plenty of people already. It doesn’t “need” a huge company to come in and drive people out. Like I said, any mid size rust belt city would get 100x the benefit from an Amazon HQ2 than NYC, along with probably better tax benefits for the company just off being in a red state.

Keep digging, johnhugh, you are almost there!!

 

[tigerGUY]

It is amazing. A certified socialist denied 25,000 people jobs. That is 25,000 people she could have tried to pry money away from under her socialistic ideas. Judging on the comments made by AOC she actually thought New York was sitting on $3 billion. I swear it is amazes me how these people win elections.

Because they listen to their Socialist idols in DC...Pelosi, et al. Those people will get their Karma in the end.

Their is a reason Trump has a 52% popularity rating. You don't hear that from our main stream liars....I mean media. The silent majority in this country is ready to explode. But that would never happen according to many....who are the biggest chumps.....and misguided.

 

[PalmettoTiger1]

It is amazing. A certified socialist denied 25,000 people jobs. That is 25,000 people she could have tried to pry money away from under her socialistic ideas. Judging on the comments made by AOC she actually thought New York was sitting on $3 billion. I swear it is amazes me how these people win elections.

Because the electorate is dumber and more gullible than the politicians

That is scary for a free democratic capitalist county

 

[PalmettoTiger1]

When the coastlines are underwater those of us that saw it coming will all be saying I told you so.

It’s called Holland or the Netherlands

 

[SpartanTiger120]

Well in his defense, prayer rugs are super lethal. Politicians say a lot. You’d have to be a retard to believe believe the hyperbole. But not quite as dumb as believing the world will end in 12 years. I mean I can’t stand Feinstein but that poor lady had kids and their teachers/parents in her office asking her to support the GND. If you haven’t seen, look it up. It is quite the comedy. Unfortunately, we have plenty of idiots. I think it was George Carlin...imagine how dumb the average person is and realize that half are dumber.

But I’ll save my statistical/financial breakdown of why I support a wall and better border security for another day. As well as visa reform and nixing the anchor baby crap.

Can t wait for this. Pretty much all analysis of the issue shows that spending the money to build, and then keep up, a wall across the entire southern border is an inefficient use (waste) of resources.

What metrics show that walling the entire border will produce a positive ROI?

 

[Tigerdad56]

The biggest problem facing America right now is the ignorance of our voters and that is exploited and fed by the two party system. People are lazy when it comes to seeking out info and they are vindictive. Once allegiance has been made to a party or a politician, the typical American is too weak to break away and admit when they have been duped. They would prefer to believe or defend lies and misinformation to justify their choice instead. Sometimes the facts are not pleasant and the means that we need to deal with them are even less desirable and maybe even personally humbling.

Politicians are lining up left and right to feed the ignorant biases of their voters to maintain power. Noone is willing to speak truth or deal in facts because that won't get you elected. So instead they feed their biases and ignorance with whatever made up BS gets them to the voter booth to cast a vote against their enemy.

You've got AOC on the left feeding her socialist followers on the idea that NY was going to pay Amazon $3 billion of their citizens money to come to NY and that NY actually won financially by running off Amazon and the tens of billions of dollars in positive financial impact they would have had on NY. Feeding the idea that the Green New Deal is achievable within the financial parameters and timelines as drawn. Feeding the idea that free healthcare, free college, and a government living wage for all can be achieved with no significant impact on their citizens taxes and America's economy. Or that mere rounding and accounting errors by the DOD would pay for 2/3 of Medicare for all.

Conversely, you have Donald Trump and the extreme right feeding his base on the idea that immigrant caravans are "attacking" America. That women, children and young men with their sticks and stones are a greater threat than North Korea or Russia. That building a great wall on our border would cut off illegal drugs even though 90% are seized at legal points of entry. That climate change is a fallacy and there is no human impact though 97% of scientists say something else. That food stamps are running up the deficit spending and not the tax reform bill that was essentially a boon to the top 1% while adding trillions to the debt in coming years. That America will be a safer place by disengaging from our allies and the rest of the world and embracing the likes of Kim Jong-un and Vladimir Putin.

I can go on and on and on for both sides. America needs a reality check and they aren't getting it from their politicians because they don't want to deal in facts. Until the people of this country move to the middle and realize that the leaders from the extreme right and extreme left, whether politicians or online bloggers or fanatical organizations, are feeding them bullshit by the buckets to weaponize them against each other for personal gain, we are going to continue to descend down a very dangerous path.

Our founding fathers warned of a two party system. John Adams said, "There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution."

George Washington agreed with Adams and further warned "It agitates the Community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions."

PREACH

 

[orangelvis]

What was really eye-opening was the bragging AOC did afterwards. What a frickin' MORON!! She should vote "present" at every opportunity in congress,(like someone we all know), and then get on the VP ticket at the next convention.

 

[Rychek4]

What was really eye-opening was the bragging AOC did afterwards. What a frickin' MORON!! She should vote "present" at every opportunity in congress,(like someone we all know), and then get on the VP ticket at the next convention.

We don't always agree on political stuff here, but I think we are on the same side of this issue!

Funny thing I noticed in this thread, almost everyone agreed that this was a poor outcome, but the minute (page 2 I think) people started dropping labels everyone was up in arms again.

 

[PlayTimesOver]

Can t wait for this. Pretty much all analysis of the issue shows that spending the money to build, and then keep up, a wall across the entire southern border is an inefficient use (waste) of resources.

What metrics show that walling the entire border will produce a positive ROI?

Link to analysis?

 

[PlayTimesOver]

Can t wait for this. Pretty much all analysis of the issue shows that spending the money to build, and then keep up, a wall across the entire southern border is an inefficient use (waste) of resources.

What metrics show that walling the entire border will produce a positive ROI?

You know I did some of my own research rather than listening to these news networks and did some math. Posted this arguing on the MB and not a single liberal even attempted to refute it.



“So I did some research and some math....feel free to criticize, as I’m sure you will.

https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/

https://cis.org/Camarota/Enforcing-Immigration-Law-Cost-Effective

https://www.watchdog.org/national/t...cle_cb8ea0e2-d873-11e8-8aa0-2f45f29d051e.html —yes watchdog. Don’t know anything about it but it quotes the CIS.

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66

Links above say that about 400,000 illegals cross the border per year. Other article states
it costs about $69.6 billion/million illegals over a life time. Over 20 years that is $556,800,000,000.

What this does not include is descendants. The annual cost for births by illegals is 2.5 billion (x 20)= 50 billion. That’s just for births. What about the next 18 years of providing healthcare, EBT, education, housing, etc.

$606,800,000,000 over 20 years and add costs for taking care of children (below)...

Educating kids of illegals:
We have roughly 300,000 kids born to illegals here every year. Over 20 years you get 6,000,000 kids. It costs an average of $13,000 to educate a child in public schools per year. Multiply that by 13 years of public school. But let’s just do one year of education for that 6 million kids....
$78,000,000,000

78 bil x 13 is 1,014,000,000,000.

So for cost of just education of those children and the cost of parents over a 20 year span is around 1.6 trillion.
I’ll let you figure out housing, food, medical care and whatever else we payfor.

But what about cost of crime for the original 8 million immigrants over the 20 year span? How many murders? How many rapes? How many car crashes even? Yes. We know they aren’t all bad people. The huge majority are very good people I’m sure. But the costs start adding up over decades.

This doesn’t account for increasing costs in the future either. So yeah, it could save trillions. That’s just from border crossings. You can also add in people who don’t leave when visas expire. It’s about 50/50 with border crossings and visa violations.”

I will now add to this.
How much do we spend yearly on illegals in our prison system?

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/depa...-release-quarterly-alien-incarceration-report

“A total of 57,820 known or suspected aliens were in in DOJ custody at the end of FY 2018 Q1, including 38,132 persons in BOP custody and 19,688 in USMS custody. Of this total, 42,284 people had been confirmed by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) to be aliens (i.e., non-citizens and non-nationals), while 15,536 aliens were still under investigation by ICE to determine alienage and/or removability.
Among the 42,284 confirmed aliens, 39,413 people (93 percent) were unlawfully present. These numbers include a 62 percent unlawful rate among 38,132 known or suspected aliens in BOP custody and a 78 percent unlawful rate among 19,688 confirmed aliens in USMS custody.
Approximately 16,233 aliens in USMS custody required housing in state, local, and private facilities, which cost $1,458,372.72 a day.”

When a Dreamer turns 18 here, they are also allowed to bring over family from Mexico that are allowed subsidy.

How about drug control? Maybe it stops a nice little percentage of drugs from crossing. How much do we spend in healthcare related to drugs.

How about a mass migration? It’s not out of the realm of possibility considering the issues you could see occurring in central and South America. It may be 20 years from now. It may be 50. Watch a million people start marching from the south. But I would feel a whole lot better with a wall protecting our border forces.

Cost of wall: let’s just say 100 billion, which is billions more than 4 times most of the quotes. Put money to surveillance equipment like motion sensors, drones, cameras. Add some border stations every few miles. Let’s then say 5 billion a year for upkeep (probably a small percentage of this is what it costs yearly)



https://www.google.com/amp/www.msnb...cost-far-more-5-billion-so-why-have-fight/amp
Another:
https://www.politifact.com/californ...trumps-border-wall-cost-same-one-and-half-us/
Lib rag says up to 50 billion, Trump said 20 originally, so somewhere in between.

Look man. I’m far from a racist or a xenophobe. But we have our own problems. 22 trillion in debt. Underfunded social security. Unfunded pensions in quite a few states. Shortages of hospitals, doctors, teachers. California just wasted 5 billion on a train to nowhere. $50 billion is a drop in the bucket. So yes, it’s well worth it. Feel free to say whatever. I’m sure you can find several flaws as I am by no means an expert. We also need visa reform because that 400,000 only includes about half that come illegally. The other half are people that overstayed their visas. The anchor baby law needs to be overturned as well. We have the most lax immigration in the world and it is being taken advantage of at the cost of citizens. Just come in the right way. I’m all for that.

Flawed statistical analysis brought to you by

PlayTimesOver

 

[SpartanTiger120]

You know I did some of my own research rather than listening to these news networks and did some math. Posted this arguing on the MB and not a single liberal even attempted to refute it.

So I did some research and some math....feel free to criticize, as I’m sure you will.

https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/

Links above say that about 400,000 illegals cross the border per year. Other article states
it costs about $69.6 billion/million illegals over a life time. Over 20 years that is $556,800,000,000.
. . .
Flawed statistical analysis brought to you by

PlayTimesOver

This "analysis" is flawed in many ways and rests on baseless premises and assumptions throughout, each one building on the last. Rather than go point by point, which would take considerable time, we'll just start at the first incorrect premise and knock the house of cards down in full right there.

The links do not say, as you claim, "400,000 illegals cross the border per year." Instead, the first source states that many people are apprehended, i.e. they do not make it in the United States and are thwarted by the existing wall and CBP enforcement.

Instead, you should have started your analysis at 70,000: "DHS estimated that the growth of the illegal immigrant population had slowed considerably, saying the population increased by 470,000 per year from 2000 to 2007, but only by 70,000 per year from 2010 to 2015." According to DHS, the amount of people who make it into the country despite CBP efforts was around 70,000 per year for the most recent five year period mentioned in that source.

This is the amount of people a wall would, hypothetically in Trump's fairytale world, stop from entering the country and draining resources. Not 400,000. Such a critical reading comprehension fail at the outset fatally undermines the credibility of your analysis.

And it's highly unlikely that walling the currently unwalled portion of the southern border would do much of anything to stop those 70,000. Further, the wall does nothing to stem the tide of illegal immigration through ports of entry, and like you said, does nothing about those who overstay visas.

Given that you've called PolitiFact a "liberal rag," I'll offer you analysis from the conservative think tank, the Cato Institute:

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/why-wall-wont-work

https://www.cato.org/blog/cost-border-wall-keeps-climbing-its-becoming-less-wall ("A wall along the border with Mexico will likely cost about $59.8 billion to construct.")

For good measure, I'll offer some "lib professor brainwashing" analysis from Stanford that argues the existing wall has been a net economic loser:

https://news.stanford.edu/2018/11/15/border-wall-came-high-cost-low-benefit-u-s-workers/

Let us not forget that Trump promised Mexico was going to pay for the wall, which everyone (with half a brain) deep down knew was a total lie from the get go. Bottom line, most analysis, from the Cato Institute and beyond concludes that walling the rest of the border would be ineffective at its stated purpose and costly, while having unintended economic and environmental consequences.

I've got no problem with immigration enforcement, neither did Obama, neither do the vast majority of current Democrats ("libs" as you say). I've got no problem expanding and enhancing the existing wall in certain areas where our experts find a specific need, most people don't. What I do have a problem with is a multi-billion dollar albatross of a wall, fueled by Trump pandering to the lowest common denominator of his base.

It's a waste of resources, tramples on private property rights, was rejected by voters in November, and will hopefully never be built.

 

[PlayTimesOver]

This "analysis" is flawed in many ways and rests on baseless premises and assumptions throughout, each one building on the last. Rather than go point by point, which would take considerable time, we'll just start at the first incorrect premise and knock the house of cards down in full right there.

The links do not say, as you claim, "400,000 illegals cross the border per year." Instead, the first source states that many people are apprehended, i.e. they do not make it in the United States and are thwarted by the existing wall and CBP enforcement.

Instead, you should have started your analysis at 70,000: "DHS estimated that the growth of the illegal immigrant population had slowed considerably, saying the population increased by 470,000 per year from 2000 to 2007, but only by 70,000 per year from 2010 to 2015." According to DHS, the amount of people who make it into the country despite CBP efforts was around 70,000 per year for the most recent five year period mentioned in that source.

This is the amount of people a wall would, hypothetically in Trump's fairytale world, stop from entering the country and draining resources. Not 400,000. Such a critical reading comprehension fail at the outset fatally undermines the credibility of your analysis.

And it's highly unlikely that walling the currently unwalled portion of the southern border would do much of anything to stop those 70,000. Further, the wall does nothing to stem the tide of illegal immigration through ports of entry, and like you said, does nothing about those who overstay visas.

Given that you've called PolitiFact a "liberal rag," I'll offer you analysis from the conservative think tank, the Cato Institute:

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/why-wall-wont-work

https://www.cato.org/blog/cost-border-wall-keeps-climbing-its-becoming-less-wall ("A wall along the border with Mexico will likely cost about $59.8 billion to construct.")

For good measure, I'll offer some "lib professor brainwashing" analysis from Stanford that argues the existing wall has been a net economic loser:

https://news.stanford.edu/2018/11/15/border-wall-came-high-cost-low-benefit-u-s-workers/

Let us not forget that Trump promised Mexico was going to pay for the wall, which everyone (with half a brain) deep down knew was a total lie from the get go. Bottom line, most analysis, from the Cato Institute and beyond concludes that walling the rest of the border would be ineffective at its stated purpose and costly, while having unintended economic and environmental consequences.

I've got no problem with immigration enforcement, neither did Obama, neither do the vast majority of current Democrats ("libs" as you say). I've got no problem expanding and enhancing the existing wall in certain areas where our experts find a specific need, most people don't. What I do have a problem with is a multi-billion dollar albatross of a wall, fueled by Trump pandering to the lowest common denominator of his base.

It's a waste of resources, tramples on private property rights, was rejected by voters in November, and will hopefully never be built.

Good catch. It was 2 in the morning at work which is why I said it was a flawed analysis. I’m guessing nobody on the MB was bored enough to read. I’m ok being showed where I’m wrong. No worries here. That’s the point of conversation. You may even be able to change my mind.

That was lifetime cost of the illegals per year. It was a big chunk no doubt. Decrease that number to 97,440,000,000. But that has no effect on the other numbers as they are unrelated.

The other numbers were based on the amount of births to illegals. I don’t think I misread those. The cost associated with that aspect was the bigger chunk of change. Regardless of how many entered, 300,000 babies to illegals were had. So the rest of the math works out. So this issue could be worked out by not granting birth right citizenship. Totally ok with that. You can check over those numbers too if you like.

I’m still going to guess that 10s of 1000s entered at open border. One article you posted said they found 4000 holes in fences in one year. How many entered through those 4000 holes? How many entered through areas where they didn’t need to cut holes? How many scaled the fences? I guess I just don’t see the problem with walling the southern border. It’s not the entire thing. I’ll even go far less than the 70,000. If it just stopped 20,000, it’s still 1.4 billion a year. I’m cool with that. I mean like I said, Cali just wasted 5 billion on a train that won’t be finished. That results in less babies born here as well. Would still pay for the wall in a relatively short time span.

We can argue about this all day but the fact of the matter is that we have no real numbers on crossing. It’s just estimated in all of the research. I would prefer not to leave it to chance. Could be a lot more or a lot less than we think. We waste money on plenty of other shit for no reason. But I’d be willing to start with birthright and visa reform and go from there. Start with some wall where the border agents think it’s strategically important.

I wasn’t calling politifact a liberal rag. That was for the MSNB article. Just made the mistake and added the second article later. Don’t get so offended by lib. I call conservatives pubs. It’s not disrespect. They are liberals. It’s just shorter.

AOC is still an idiot. I’m sure we can agree on that.

 

[CU Alumnus]

Yeah I dont understand any of these people

Simple. They stoopid.

Amazon employes nearly 700,000 people worldwide.

Nearly 700,000 people.

New York needs all the risk-takers and job creators it can get, as does every other state. Even if one is the biggest pro-government/government-centered society fanatic on the planet (which unto itself is baffling), you still have every incentive in the world to get off the backs of risk-takers/job-creators because these people create jobs, meaning when the folks they employ earn paychecks, those folks actually pay into the system (a portion of their earnings go to the government) versus living off the system. In other words, because they're actually working, ultimately, they're actually sending more dollars/revenue to the government. That's why states - most states - give tax breaks to corporations, whether it's Amazon or ExxonMobil or here in South Carolina, BMW.

It's better for this country for more of its citizens to have jobs (and pay into the system) versus food stamps (meaning they're living off the system ... meaning they're propped up by the government).

Give someone a job and they're going to spend money in your economy, they're going to invest it (401k/IRA/taxable account, where they would pay taxes to the government on any dividends received) and they're going to have taxes (which go straight to the government) withheld from their paycheck.

Risk-takers/job-creators are the last people on the planet who should be penalized. Penalize them, demonize them and they have virtually no incentive to reinvest into their businesses, they have no incentive to create jobs and no incentive to start more businesses.

A very rare political/economic post from Chris. Damn.

BTW a lot of good points in here - from someone who has taken a risk, built a company, and provided jobs.

Eh .... need access to a major airport. Additionally, Manhattan may not “needed” Amazon, BUT Queens would’ve benefited greatly from it.

Truly a case of winning the battle but losing the war.

I'm guessing any airport could be upgraded to suit their needs, provided there is room for it. Greenville's would probably suffice.

Plus it might provide an incentive to get I85 north of Greenville fixed. Holy shit......

I get the worship of the wealthy but bezos is worth 130 billion. There is absolutely no incentive to make any more money. He’s already the most powerful person on earth that’s not the US President.

New York may have lost potential growth, but the city is already very strong and has plenty of people already. It doesn’t “need” a huge company to come in and drive people out. Like I said, any mid size rust belt city would get 100x the benefit from an Amazon HQ2 than NYC, along with probably better tax benefits for the company just off being in a red state.

Bezos is in business to make money. When he builds a new business he's doing it to make more money for his business. So he goes after the best deal that he can. If a location doesn't like the deal they are getting, they can just push away from the table. And I think Bezos is a dick. But he's in business to make money, which is why business exists. It's not a ****ing charity.

Now why he traded in his former wife for the non-biodegradable model I have no idea.

AOC is truly an idiot who has proven over and over she has no understanding of how economics work, that being said, I am glad they did not choose Charlotte

Steve Cook on the main board refers to her as "The congressional bartender."

She has a degree from Boston University, which probably has Boston College grads laughing their asses off......

Traffic here is already terrible, with no good plan to fix it. Schools are overcrowded and they arent building new ones fast enough. And home prices are rising at an unsustainable pace. I don't even want to imagine what would have happened if Amazon came here.

They need to go to some dying city to try to revive it, where they will be appreciated, ie Detroit, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Chicago, etc.

WTF would anyone want to go to Detroit or Cleveland? That might make attracting talented people tough.

Chicago you might go crazy and wind up kicking your own ass and then blaming Trump supporters.

Pittsburgh might be a nice pick. They are actually rebuilding and doing pretty well.

 

[PAWrocka]

Simple. They stoopid.



A very rare political/economic post from Chris. Damn.

BTW a lot of good points in here - from someone who has taken a risk, built a company, and provided jobs.



I'm guessing any airport could be upgraded to suit their needs, provided there is room for it. Greenville's would probably suffice.

Plus it might provide an incentive to get I85 north of Greenville fixed. Holy shit......



Bezos is in business to make money. When he builds a new business he's doing it to make more money for his business. So he goes after the best deal that he can. If a location doesn't like the deal they are getting, they can just push away from the table. And I think Bezos is a dick. But he's in business to make money, which is why business exists. It's not a ****ing charity.

Now why he traded in his former wife for the non-biodegradable model I have no idea.



Steve Cook on the main board refers to her as "The congressional bartender."

She has a degree from Boston University, which probably has Boston College grads laughing their asses off......





WTF would anyone want to go to Detroit or Cleveland? That might make attracting talented people tough.

Chicago you might go crazy and wind up kicking your own ass and then blaming Trump supporters.

Pittsburgh might be a nice pick. They are actually rebuilding and doing pretty well.

It’s not only the infrastructure, it’s the routes. The major international carriers won’t start direct routes to GSP JUST for Amazon. You need a airport that has direct routes to major hubs, LHR, Frankfurt, Dubai, Mexico City, São Paulo, Bogota, Narita/Haneda, etc ... now ... Atlanta would work. ATL could absolutely expand their International operations and it would be justified ........ but for a company like Amazon their options are limited to NYC, DC, Chicago, San Fran, LAX, ehhhhhh maybe Dallas

 

[CU Alumnus]

It’s not only the infrastructure, it’s the routes. The major international carriers won’t start direct routes to GSP JUST for Amazon. You need a airport that has direct routes to major hubs, LHR, Frankfurt, Dubai, Mexico City, São Paulo, Bogota, Narita/Haneda, etc ... now ... Atlanta would work. ATL could absolutely expand their International operations and it would be justified ........ but for a company like Amazon their options are limited to NYC, DC, Chicago, San Fran, LAX, ehhhhhh maybe Dallas

Are you referring to freight carriers or the airlines? Airlines I think you are definitely right (and I didn't think of that honestly).

UPS/FedEx/DHL - Amazon may have enough leverage to make them do more direct flights. But my understanding is that this wasn't to be a warehouse but a new headquarters. Though there may have been a warehouse as part of it.