OT: For any with connections with the athletic department

[tiger2vette2]

But, no facts to back it up, I would assume that they also suffer from a lot of other mental issues and this is only a bandaid fix to do medical procedures like this. Through my course of owning a business I have know 2 people who didn't know "what they were". But that wasn't the only issues they suffered from.

Also if we allow it not to be a mental issue where do we stop it. Eventually being a pedophile will be acceptable because, afterall, they can't help themselves. That was just what they identify as.

Some do, some suffer from other issues because of the dysphoria, and certainly some people with other mental issues claim dysphoria for various reasons. Having these conversations in the aggregate is always made more complicated by weaving in individual cases. People are complicated.

I think you and I can probably agree at least that nobody should be undergoing these procedures without considered psychological evaluation, especially minors.

Re: the pedophile thing... that is a slippery slope that goes back a long time. The thing is we don't jail people in this country for being pedophiles. We jail them for pedophilic conduct. Choosing a course of gender-affirming care for oneself is not comparable to that.

 

[CUPLAYER1]

Running from problems is never the answer. Cut off my penis, I still have Bill's. Life is difficult no matter what gender you are. Kids fail to realize this. Then when reality sets in and the are a social misfit on top of it all, I cam very easily see why suicide is the next bad choice they make.

It's sad. It doesn't need to be normalized. They need help. And changing their bodies only compounds the shitty life they were already running from.

 

[Dr Funkenstein]

We’re talking about a shoe company’s email.

A shoe company that uses slaves to make their products.

 

[LUV DEM TIGERS]

Running from problems is never the answer. Cut off my penis, I still have Bill's. Life is difficult no matter what gender you are. Kids fail to realize this. Then when reality sets in and the are a social misfit on top of it all, I cam very easily see why suicide is the next bad choice they make.

It's sad. It doesn't need to be normalized. They need help. And changing their bodies only compounds the shitty life they were already running from.

In a weird way you said exactly how I feel.

 

[LUV DEM TIGERS]

Some do, some suffer from other issues because of the dysphoria, and certainly some people with other mental issues claim dysphoria for various reasons. Having these conversations in the aggregate is always made more complicated by weaving in individual cases. People are complicated.

I think you and I can probably agree at least that nobody should be undergoing these procedures without considered psychological evaluation, especially minors.

Re: the pedophile thing... that is a slippery slope that goes back a long time. The thing is we don't jail people in this country for being pedophiles. We jail them for pedophilic conduct. Choosing a course of gender-affirming care for oneself is not comparable to that.

But if a juvenile is able to decide they want gender reaffirming surgery how are they not capable of deciding they want to have sex with an adult? We are getting closer and closer to that, unfortunately.

 

[okclem]

If this needs to get bumped to the round table I understand, but I feel that this is something so evil that it needs attention.

Thank you, sincerely. I haven't laughed this hard at something in a while.

 

[flotiger]

Let me say first I want to respond in good faith because I understand this is an issue that has moved into public attention very fast and there is a lot of information out there. I don't want to come across as making it seem like I think anyone is inherently bad or ignorant for having a different point of view. But I do feel compelled to contribute in these threads lately because I am personally close to these issues and I hope to appeal to the compassionate side of at least some people on the board. I hope people respond to me in kind.

To answer your question, the really short and too simple answer is because one of those approaches works and one does not. The truth is a little more complicated, and of course there are always anecdotal counter examples, but generally speaking therapy and mental health treatment will never make a genuinely trans person not trans anymore. However, gender affirming medical treatment has been proven to improve both quality of life and survival rates in the aggregate. Also, nobody. especially no young person, is getting to the point of receiving a mastectomy without extensive prior consultation and demonstrating a genuine sincerity in their identity. These are not things that are rushed into.

An informed reality based adult response. A rarity these days. Thanks.

 

[dpic73]

Running from problems is never the answer. Cut off my penis, I still have Bill's. Life is difficult no matter what gender you are. Kids fail to realize this. Then when reality sets in and the are a social misfit on top of it all, I cam very easily see why suicide is the next bad choice they make.

It's sad. It doesn't need to be normalized. They need help. And changing their bodies only compounds the shitty life they were already running from.

What makes you such an expert on other people's lives?

 

[SlovenskoTiger]

Thank you, sincerely. I haven't laughed this hard at something in a while.

An informed reality based adult response. A rarity these says. Thanks.

I shudder to think what you all consider evil or reality. I can appreciate @tiger2vette2 's response and wanting to be compassionate, but I think the data and evidence that other countries have compiled that are ahead of where ours is at would contradict the conclusion reached. Rather than accepting the narrative being pushed by society in the name of "compassion", I would encourage you all to read up on this woman's story, read Abigail Shrier's book Irreversable Damage, and watch the film "What is a woman?" to learn the history behind how society arrived at the ideas of "gender identity". Robert Stoller and John Money did unspeakable evils to children in order to propagate these ideas.

 

[tiger2vette2]

But if a juvenile is able to decide they want gender reaffirming surgery how are they not capable of deciding they want to have sex with an adult? We are getting closer and closer to that, unfortunately.

I don't think your question is unreasonable, but I do think there are a few very important differences between the two. I don't really want to go too far down this road, though. The one thing I'll throw out is that consent laws apply regardless of if a minor is individually capable of making that decision because of what we know about the potential for exploitation and abuse in such relations in the aggregate. Compared to what we know about the impact of gender affirming care in the aggregate, it's just not the same thing.

 

[Dungeon09]

I shudder to think what you all consider evil or reality. I can appreciate @tiger2vette2 's response and wanting to be compassionate, but I think the data and evidence that other countries have compiled that are ahead of where ours is at would contradict the conclusion reached. Rather than accepting the narrative being pushed by society in the name of "compassion", I would encourage you all to read up on this woman's story, read Abigail Shrier's book Irreversable Damage, and watch the film "What is a woman?" to learn the history behind how society arrived at the ideas of "gender identity". Robert Stoller and John Money did unspeakable evils to children in order to propagate these ideas.

View embedded media

View embedded media

Do you understand the nature and purpose of propaganda?

 

[LUV DEM TIGERS]

I don't think your question is unreasonable, but I do think there are a few very important differences between the two. I don't really want to go too far down this road, though. The one thing I'll throw out is that consent laws apply regardless of if a minor is individually capable of making that decision because of what we know about the potential for exploitation and abuse in such relations in the aggregate. Compared to what we know about the impact of gender affirming care in the aggregate, it's just not the same thing.

But we have been told by professionals that children will "act out" in order to get attention, even then it isn't good "acting out". Just imagine if "not knowing what you are" is just "acting out"?

 

[fcctiger12]

But if a juvenile is able to decide they want gender reaffirming surgery how are they not capable of deciding they want to have sex with an adult? We are getting closer and closer to that, unfortunately.

Slippery slope argument. Always a winner.

 

[okclem]

I shudder to think what you all consider evil or reality. I can appreciate @tiger2vette2 's response and wanting to be compassionate, but I think the data and evidence that other countries have compiled that are ahead of where ours is at would contradict the conclusion reached. Rather than accepting the narrative being pushed by society in the name of "compassion", I would encourage you all to read up on this woman's story, read Abigail Shrier's book Irreversable Damage, and watch the film "What is a woman?" to learn the history behind how society arrived at the ideas of "gender identity". Robert Stoller and John Money did unspeakable evils to children in order to propagate these ideas.

View embedded media

View embedded media

LoL don't care. Shudder away, you pious good person.

 

[OleFastball]

Mastectomies often save the lives of young AFAB people with gender dysphoria. The alternative is often harmful binding techniques, or worse (self harm / suicide) if they do not have support. The rate of people who later regret these procedures is remarkably low. If you really believe in protecting children, you should support the availability of procedures like this that have proven to be life-saving. Even if you believe it is wrong to be transgender, you ought to be able to understand the utility of these procedures. It does not make the doctor offering the procedure "evil". It in fact makes them compassionate.

It without a doubt makes them evil. If you mutilate a child before the age of consent you are one evil person.

 

[OleFastball]

Let me say first I want to respond in good faith because I understand this is an issue that has moved into public attention very fast and there is a lot of information out there. I don't want to come across as making it seem like I think anyone is inherently bad or ignorant for having a different point of view. But I do feel compelled to contribute in these threads lately because I am personally close to these issues and I hope to appeal to the compassionate side of at least some people on the board. I hope people respond to me in kind.

To answer your question, the really short and too simple answer is because one of those approaches works and one does not. The truth is a little more complicated, and of course there are always anecdotal counter examples, but generally speaking therapy and mental health treatment will never make a genuinely trans person not trans anymore. However, gender affirming medical treatment has been proven to improve both quality of life and survival rates in the aggregate. Also, nobody. especially no young person, is getting to the point of receiving a mastectomy without extensive prior consultation and demonstrating a genuine sincerity in their identity. These are not things that are rushed into.

It has not been proven at all. There are whole countries (Norway, Sweden, etc) that admit these are experimental at best and have stopped the mutilation.

Willfully mutilating children is pure evil and any doctor performing such actions should be in jail. Children are defenseless and anyone taking advantage of that should be locked up.

I respect anyones right to live they want to live when they reach the age of consent. We don't allow children to drink alcohol, smoke, vape, vote, drive etc. They can't consent to elective, experimental, life altering medical procedures. Pure evil.

 

[OleFastball]

What makes you such an expert on other people's lives?

I don't need to know anything about anyones life to know that mutilating children is wrong. Full stop.

 

[moradatiger70]

LoL don't care. Shudder away, you pious good person.

 

[dpic73]

I don't need to know anything about anyones life to know that mutilating children is wrong. Full stop.

Nobody is mutilating children and anyone that knows anything about you knows you have no morals and therefore you have no room to say what's right for other people that you don't know.

 

[OleFastball]

Nobody is mutilating children and anyone that knows anything about you knows you have no morals and therefore you have no room to say what's right for other people that you don't know.

"mutilate implies the cutting off or removal of an essential part of a person or thing thereby impairing its completeness, beauty, or function."

It is absolutely mutilation.

Children can't consent!!!

 

[OleFastball]

Nobody is mutilating children and anyone that knows anything about you knows you have no morals and therefore you have no room to say what's right for other people that you don't know.

And i'll put my morals up against anyones. Stop with the personal attacks. Is it really controversial that I am opposed to mutilating children? If we don't stand up for the kids who will?

Do what you want after the age of consent.

Now hurl your personal attacks. They don't phase me.

 

[dpic73]

"mutilate implies the cutting off or removal of an essential part of a person or thing thereby impairing its completeness, beauty, or function."

It is absolutely mutilation.

Children can't consent!!!

There are an average of 19 POST- adolescent genital surgeries done per year and NONE on younger children. How about you save your fake outrage for the 40 kids that get SHOT every day.

 

[CUPLAYER1]

What makes you such an expert on other people's lives?

Because I work with hundreds of kids each year. I see it over and over. They're either running from something or someone. And a majority of the time its shitty parenting. That's the truth no one wants to hear.

 

[OleFastball]

There are an average of 19 POST- adolescent genital surgeries done per year and NONE on younger children. How about you save your fake outrage for the 40 kids that get SHOT every day.

19 too many. Its not fake outrage.

Kids can't consent to puberty blockers either!

 

[dpic73]

Because I work with hundreds of kids each year. I see it over and over. They're either running from something or someone. And a majority of the time its shitty parenting. That's the truth no one wants to hear.

The vast majority don't end up regretting their transition and that's a truth you don't want to hear. How about stay out of their lives and let medical experts work with them on their decisions? Or do you enjoy the cruelty you inflict on this tiny sliver of the population?

"Some studies suggest that rates of regret have declined over the years as patient selection and treatment methods have improved. In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret. For some, regret was temporary, but a small number went on to have detransitioning or reversal surgeries, the 2021 review said."

How common is transgender treatment regret, detransitioning?

Many states have enacted or contemplated limits or outright bans on transgender medical treatment, with conservative U.S. lawmakers saying they are worried about young people later regretting irrev…

thehill.com

 

[dpic73]

19 too many. Its not fake outrage.

Kids can't consent to puberty blockers either!

It is fake outrage - you've proven over time that you don't care about what's right or wrong - the cruelty is the point with you.

 

[CUPLAYER1]

The vast majority don't end up regretting their transition and that's a truth you don't want to hear. How about stay out of their lives and let medical experts work with them on their decisions? Or do you enjoy the cruelty you inflict on this tiny sliver of the population?

"Some studies suggest that rates of regret have declined over the years as patient selection and treatment methods have improved. In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret. For some, regret was temporary, but a small number went on to have detransitioning or reversal surgeries, the 2021 review said."

How common is transgender treatment regret, detransitioning?

Many states have enacted or contemplated limits or outright bans on transgender medical treatment, with conservative U.S. lawmakers saying they are worried about young people later regretting irrev…

thehill.com

Again - running from problems doesn't make life easier. And I don't need your biased reference to tell me what I see daily over and over. The truth is- parents are failing at an alarming rate. Kids are exposed to too much too early via tv and especially social media. Being rejected in a relationship as a middle schooler now means you must be gay. Or maybe the opposite sex doesn't pay you any attention at all...so I'll take what I can get. Go see how many 11 and 12 year old girls are wearing full make up and mid thigh skirts.....its about attention. And they gonna get it some how.

 

[dpic73]

Again - running from problems doesn't make life easier. And I don't need your biased reference to tell me what I see daily over and over. The truth is- parents are failing at an alarming rate. Kids are exposed to too much too early via tv and especially social media. Being rejected in a relationship as a middle schooler now means you must be gay. Or maybe the opposite sex doesn't pay you any attention at all...so I'll take what I can get. Go see how many 11 and 12 year old girls are wearing full make up and mid thigh skirts.....its about attention. And they gonna get it some how.

27 studies with 8000 teens and adults in Europe, the US and Canada is a biased reference in your book? More biased than your anecdotal references in the Bible belt?

 

[OleFastball]

It is fake outrage - you've proven over time that you don't care about what's right or wrong - the cruelty is the point with you.

It’s wrong to mutilate children! How can you possibly support that?

Children can’t consent to puberty blockers or mutilation!

 

[OleFastball]

The vast majority don't end up regretting their transition and that's a truth you don't want to hear. How about stay out of their lives and let medical experts work with them on their decisions? Or do you enjoy the cruelty you inflict on this tiny sliver of the population?

"Some studies suggest that rates of regret have declined over the years as patient selection and treatment methods have improved. In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret. For some, regret was temporary, but a small number went on to have detransitioning or reversal surgeries, the 2021 review said."

How common is transgender treatment regret, detransitioning?

Many states have enacted or contemplated limits or outright bans on transgender medical treatment, with conservative U.S. lawmakers saying they are worried about young people later regretting irrev…

thehill.com

Wait you say it’s 19 per year and then quote a study that says it’s 8000 teens who have had surgery? What gives?

Is it fake outrage or is it 8000 mutilations? Or has this been going on for 400+ years.

 

[dpic73]

It’s wrong to mutilate children! How can you possibly support that?

Children can’t consent to puberty blockers or mutilation!

If you really cared about the harm being done to children your crusade would be against the gun culture that you fully support. But you really don't care at all....attacking this tiny sliver of the population has been the popular culture war crusade of the moment and you've seized on it to make political hay. You justify your cruelty in the name of helping children that you don't give two shits about in reality, and your posting history proves it.

 

[OleFastball]

If you really cared about the harm being done to children your crusade would be against the gun culture that you fully support. But you really don't care at all....attacking this tiny sliver of the population has been the popular culture war crusade of the moment and you've seized on it to make political hay. You justify your cruelty in the name of helping children that you don't give two shits about in reality, and your posting history proves it.

Children can’t legally own guns either. Just as they can’t consent to mutilation and or life altering medical care.

 

[dpic73]

Wait you say it’s 19 per year and then quote a study that says it’s 8000 teens who have had surgery? What gives?

Is it fake outrage or is it 8000 mutilations? Or has this been going on for 400+ years.

This is why you can't be trusted - you're already misrepresenting what the study said in less than 30 minutes.

8,000 teens and adults

 

[OleFastball]

If you really cared about the harm being done to children your crusade would be against the gun culture that you fully support. But you really don't care at all....attacking this tiny sliver of the population has been the popular culture war crusade of the moment and you've seized on it to make political hay. You justify your cruelty in the name of helping children that you don't give two shits about in reality, and your posting history proves it.

You have accused me of lying, hating, insulted me constantly …. But you can’t use the quote feature to justify any of those accusations. Let’s discuss your claims so we can get to the truth.

You know you are losing the argument when you start hurling personal insults.

 

[OleFastball]

This is why you can't be trusted - you're already misrepresenting what the study said in less than 30 minutes.

So only 19 out of 8000 were teens when it says teens and adults? I’m calling BS.

And note, my post had question marks. That is far from making a misrepresentation. 3 question marks in that post. (Should have been 4 question marks)

 

[dpic73]

You have accused me of lying, hating, insulted me constantly …. But you can’t use the quote feature to justify any of those accusations. Let’s discuss your claims so we can get to the truth.

You know you are losing the argument when you start hurling personal insults.

Review your posting history

 

[OleFastball]

Review your posting history

Use the quote feature

 

[dpic73]

So only 19 out of 8000 were teens when it says teens and adults? I’m calling BS.

Again, this is why you can't be trusted - you twist, misrepresent and lie about everything. A teen could be someone 18 or 19 years old who consented to the surgery - they could also be people that had the surgery done earlier and are being studied a few years later. You keep harping about mutilating children but the word "teen" doesn't necessarily imply that.

Just stop - responding to your incessant lying is tiresome.

 

[LUV DEM TIGERS]

There are many young girls who look down at their body and think they are fat even though they have bones sticking out. We send them to get mental help. We don't do gastric bypass or any other invasive, or even non invasive procedures to try and get their body to match their mind. We try and get their mind to match their body.

 

[OleFastball]

Again, this is why you can't be trusted - you twist, misrepresent and lie about everything. A teen could be someone 18 or 19 years old who consented to the surgery - they could also be people that had the surgery done earlier and are being studied a few years later. You keep harping about mutilating children but the word "teen" doesn't necessarily imply that.

Just stop - responding to your incessant lying is tiresome

There is no lie. You don’t like the word mutilate because it’s awful!!