Perhaps the CEOs of our health insurance companies...

[scotchtiger]

Just conversing and playing devils advocate, not trying to be a dick

Doesn't that just describe our whole government system of taxes?

The current system forces people who can pay taxes (take care of themselves) to pay for those who can't pay taxes (not taking care of oneself). Is that whole system just wrong?

Yes, taxes are the most egregious example of this.

But this is insurance. Bad drivers pay more for car insurance. People in poor health pay more for life insurance. Houses in higher risk areas have higher homeowners insurance rates.

That’s the business. It’s time we tell the people dragging down the system and driving up our insurance premiums and healthcare costs to pay their fair share.

 

[scotchtiger]

Who wants to have to go to the doctor every year to get a physical? magine how annoying that would be. Remember when we had to take your car to get an inspection every year? And the place would inevitably find something wrong with your car so that you would have to pay them to fix it? It was a huge scam.

Thats how i imagine scotch's annual physicals going. The doctors office would be even more of a mess than it is now. Appointment scehduling would be a nightmare. You wouldn;t be able to get your insurance until you had this physical that some docotots would inevitably fudge for their friends etc.

Sorry Scotch, this idea has been summarily voted down and did not get out of committee. Back to the drawing board.

You don’t have to get a physical. You can just pay the higher rate. People who prove they are physically in good shape get to enjoy some savings. It creates a financial incentive for people to lead healthier lifestyles, which will have a positive impact on US health and healthcare.

 

[fatpiggy]

You don’t have to get a physical. You can just pay the higher rate. People who prove they are physically in good shape get to enjoy some savings. It creates a financial incentive for people to lead healthier lifestyles, which will have a positive impact on US health and healthcare.

I support the idea, just question the implementation.

 

[hopefultiger13]

How do explain people catching cancer? Chemo treatments should not put anybody into financial ruin.

Absolutely... My treatment and surgery ended up costing just over $300,000. After insurance, I'm on the hook for just a bit less than $5000. I'm OK with that and will have it paid off before the end of next year, unless we decide to dip into savings to just pay it off. Can you imagine if I didn't have any insurance? My house didn't cost that much. Granted, you can't really put a price on your life, but we are the richest country in the world and it seems like we can do better than let something like this (or an accident, or <insert health issue here> ) completely ruin anyone that doesn't have a good enough job to have full coverage insurance.

Look, I'm not in love with Obamacare. It's not a great system, it's just better than anything else we have. I'm all about improving it, including overhauling our entire medical system if necessary. But until I see a BETTER plan, we need to keep what we have.

 

[hopefultiger13]

Who wants to have to go to the doctor every year to get a physical? magine how annoying that would be. Remember when we had to take your car to get an inspection every year? And the place would inevitably find something wrong with your car so that you would have to pay them to fix it? It was a huge scam.

Thats how i imagine scotch's annual physicals going. The doctors office would be even more of a mess than it is now. Appointment scehduling would be a nightmare. You wouldn;t be able to get your insurance until you had this physical that some docotots would inevitably fudge for their friends etc.

Sorry Scotch, this idea has been summarily voted down and did not get out of committee. Back to the drawing board.

Dude, you are off the rails here. Sure I don't want to get the oil changed in my car, but unless you do, bad things are going to happen. I don't want to go to the dentist every 6 months, but I do. Same deal... I like having teeth. A regular checkup is a good thing and can save you big time down the road.

Your point is well taken on the car inspection thing and Drs overdoing the meds. That's a problem and always has been... Take the oxi/antibiotic problems we are having today. A LOT of that is on Drs. doing this type of stuff. But that doesn't make the idea of an yearly checkup a bad one.

 

[fatpiggy]

Dude, you are off the rails here. Sure I don't want to get the oil changed in my car, but unless you do, bad things are going to happen. I don't want to go to the dentist every 6 months, but I do. Same deal... I like having teeth. A regular checkup is a good thing and can save you big time down the road.

Your point is well taken on the car inspection thing and Drs overdoing the meds. That's a problem and always has been... Take the oxi/antibiotic problems we are having today. A LOT of that is on Drs. doing this type of stuff. But that doesn't make the idea of an yearly checkup a bad one.

You are probably correct. If i am being honest with myself i probably don't go to the doctor because i am fat and out of shape and am afraid of what he will tell me. lol.

 

[fatpiggy]

 

[dpic73]

 

[hopefultiger13]

You are probably correct. If i am being honest with myself i probably don't go to the doctor because i am fat and out of shape and am afraid of what he will tell me. lol.

You and me both brother!

 

[CU Alumnus]

The sooner we all accept that we need universal health care the better.

Some form of it may be cheaper than what we have. But the medical care industry needs an overhaul too.

Some of the messages around this have been absolutely appalling. I work in this industry and have several colleagues that were friends with Brian. He's a husband and father. This is a horrible tragedy and devastating for many people. That should be everyone's first thought. Not whining about claims denials, which is a symptom of many other issues in US healthcare. Not some devious plot by a chief executive many rungs removed from the claims process.

One thing for sure - the entire health care system is fvcked up. Not just the insurance piece.

So why is it that countries with universal healthcare have people who make better, healthier choices resulting in a significantly lower rate of obesity?

Most of those countries are the size of Georgia.

Just for the record.

 

[UrHuckleberry]

Man I’m thrilled they caught that early and everything worked out.

But your point in the first paragraph isn’t relevant to preventative care. Going to the doctor because you are sick is acute care, not preventative. Your annual wellness check/physical that caught your issue is preventative. Colonoscopy is preventative. Stuff like that.

Right but I think this is a perfect (if anecdotal) example of what @WapPride was trying to say. Affordable costs early on (whether preventable or acute for feeling under the weather) can prevent much larger costs down the road.

If I weren't financially stable, even the covered preventable stuff would make me a little nervous. They find one thing that doesn't look right in a preventative care physical, and they need to then do a bunch of stuff to see what it is that is not free. Only the first step is free, not any of the research type stuff that is needed.

 

[Cocks are Number 1]

Absolutely not. I've always had insurance due to the white collar nature of my job, but back when I worked in SC and I had BC and BS coverage, my deductible was $350 or so a year. In other words, NOTHING compared to even a standard ER trip. But still, when I felt under the weather I was not very likely to make a Dr's appointment if I hadn't used my deductible, just b/c who wants to spend $150 when you are probably going to be fine in a couple of days. I imagine that's even worse when you don't have "good" insurance or none at all.

True Story:

Now that I'm in Idaho, I still have BC and BS, but the copay is handled differently and it only costs $20 to go to the Drs. even if it's the first trip or the 10th. Being past 50, I go to the Dr. twice a year for a wellness check and any time I feel under the weather. It's a no brainer. Back in September I went in for my 6 month and have a new Dr since my old one retired. He noted that I had a high iron content in my blood. My old Dr. had noticed that 4 years ago and ordered a DNA type test for me, confirming that I had a recessive gene that caused this, but only one, so it was not something to worry about. My new Doc says he saw that on my records, but he wanted me to go to a hematologist just make sure that I wasn't getting Iron deposited in my organs (particularly the liver). So I went. The hematologist agreed with my new Doc and ordered an MRI of my liver, however, he also said that my old Dr was almost certainly, correct in that it was probably no problem. He also ordered a full blood workup at the time and a couple of days later that came back all clear as well. Then I got the MRI and he called me back in. My liver was clean, but they noticed a large mass on my right Kidney that looked like it could be cancer. He has a friend that's a urologist, called him on the spot and got an appointment for that afternoon and a slot for a CT scan on my whole body the next day. Turns out that it was a baseball size tumor. The urologist said that it was growing right on the blood supply for the kidney and that the entire kidney had to go whether it was cancer or not (although in his opinion, the odds were 85%+ that it was cancer. The "good" news was that it appeared to still be stage one and that it didn't appear to have spread past my kidney. So on November 12th I went in and got my kidney removed (that's why I haven't been on here a bunch as sitting at my desk is not that comfortable, but I'm actually back at work this week). It turns out that it was indeed cancer and it was pretty aggressive. They "think" the tumor was almost certainly < 2 years old but they got it all and none of the lymph nodes around my kidney were affected. So I'm "cured". no chemo or radiation needed as the CT scan came back clean for the rest of my body.

Point being is that I had no symptoms. My blood work was normal. My kidney function was fine. The ONLY reason I'm not blissfully puttering about with a big malignant tumor on my kidney is because of cheap preventative health care and paid sick leave that make going to the Drs. easy instead of a chore.

Glad to hear you’re okay.

 

[scotchtiger]

Right but I think this is a perfect (if anecdotal) example of what @WapPride was trying to say. Affordable costs early on (whether preventable or acute for feeling under the weather) can prevent much larger costs down the road.

If I weren't financially stable, even the covered preventable stuff would make me a little nervous. They find one thing that doesn't look right in a preventative care physical, and they need to then do a bunch of stuff to see what it is that is not free. Only the first step is free, not any of the research type stuff that is needed.

You realize there is no utopia where it’s free right? Those test and procedures cost the same regardless of who pays for it.

The only difference is who pays for it. With universal healthcare, people like me will pay the lions share. High tax payers. So I’ll pay substantially more in taxes to support that model while maintaining a healthy weight, good nutrition, exercising and being an exceptionally low risk per every actuarial model.

That’s not right. Especially when you have people ITT admitting to being fat and laughing off not getting annual physicals as a result. They are driving the costs here. Not me. They should pay. Not me.

 

[TigerGrowls]

So why is it that countries with universal healthcare have people who make better, healthier choices resulting in a significantly lower rate of obesity?

The availability and lower cost of unhealthy food in the US is a huge part of it. Hopefully RFK Jr does some good stuff to fix it.

 

[tallulahtiger30319]

Who wants to have to go to the doctor every year to get a physical? magine how annoying that would be. Remember when we had to take your car to get an inspection every year? And the place would inevitably find something wrong with your car so that you would have to pay them to fix it? It was a huge scam.

Thats how i imagine scotch's annual physicals going. The doctors office would be even more of a mess than it is now. Appointment scehduling would be a nightmare. You wouldn;t be able to get your insurance until you had this physical that some docotots would inevitably fudge for their friends etc.

Sorry Scotch, this idea has been summarily voted down and did not get out of committee. Back to the drawing board.

I'd guess a cottage industry pops up to do the annual physicals. Run folks through like cattle and do some sort of "government approved" physical to collect their money and move on to the next guy.
I do an annual physical every year on my own dime. It's pretty thorough, but then, I pay for it myself, so I make sure it's a good one.

 

[firegiver]

Americans are fat because the farm lobby gets corn subsidized and they put HFCS in ****ing everything. Our food is filled with sugar. Sugar makes you fat.
Its not rocket science. Our diet sucks. It's mainly due to the preservatives, sugars and highly processed food we allow companies to feed us. Europeans have much better oversight and restrictions. But you know, thats not as profitable, so we don't do it here.
Also, we DRIVE everywhere. Look at obesity rates in cities compared to rural America.

 

[firegiver]

Also, I've worked with UHC in a professional capacity. It's sad. I will say though, crazy people do have a reason to seek vengence. They did just release AI to auto decline patients. An AI that UHC knew had a 90% error rate.

I personally know people who've had procedures be pre-approved by that company, only for them to deny them after.

Ya'll BCBS is about to roll out a policy where they will only provide anesthesia for a certain amount of time. A 6 billion dollar company, wants to tell doctors how long they have to complete a triple bypass.

Our doctors are employed by the health insurance companies in this country, and its going very wrong very quick.

 

[scotchtiger]

Americans are fat because the farm lobby gets corn subsidized and they put HFCS in ****ing everything. Our food is filled with sugar. Sugar makes you fat.
Its not rocket science. Our diet sucks. It's mainly due to the preservatives, sugars and highly processed food we allow companies to feed us. Europeans have much better oversight and restrictions. But you know, thats not as profitable, so we don't do it here.
Also, we DRIVE everywhere. Look at obesity rates in cities compared to rural America.

You must be excited about RFKjr right

Totally agree here. Our food supply is garbage.

 

[fatpiggy]

Also, I've worked with UHC in a professional capacity. It's sad. I will say though, crazy people do have a reason to seek vengence. They did just release AI to auto decline patients. An AI that UHC knew had a 90% error rate.

I personally know people who've had procedures be pre-approved by that company, only for them to deny them after.

Ya'll BCBS is about to roll out a policy where they will only provide anesthesia for a certain amount of time. A 6 billion dollar company, wants to tell doctors how long they have to complete a triple bypass.

Our doctors are employed by the health insurance companies in this country, and its going very wrong very quick.

Interesting on the anesthesia. Seems like a bad rule in many ways

 

[SGTiger]

Interesting on the anesthesia. Seems like a bad rule in many ways

That policy change has been reversed.

 

[firegiver]

Where is our physicality?

That policy change has been reversed.

strange timing right after a CEO responsible for the deaths of a lot of folks, is executed in the streets

 

[scotchtiger]

Looks like they caught the POS killer.

Suspect detained in manhunt for UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson's killer

Luigi Mangione, who was detained at a McDonald's in Altoona, Pa., has been identified as the suspect believed to have shot and killed UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson last Wednesday in New York City.

www.foxnews.com

 

[UrHuckleberry]

You realize there is no utopia where it’s free right? Those test and procedures cost the same regardless of who pays for it.

The only difference is who pays for it. With universal healthcare, people like me will pay the lions share. High tax payers. So I’ll pay substantially more in taxes to support that model while maintaining a healthy weight, good nutrition, exercising and being an exceptionally low risk per every actuarial model.

That’s not right. Especially when you have people ITT admitting to being fat and laughing off not getting annual physicals as a result. They are driving the costs here. Not me. They should pay. Not me.

You're already paying for it in a lot of cases. If people don't have insurance and are going to the ER, etc. But right now you're paying for more people since it's once issues have gotten bad and have a lot more that is needed.

 

[Spencer_York]

Americans are fat because the farm lobby gets corn subsidized and they put HFCS in ****ing everything. Our food is filled with sugar. Sugar makes you fat.
Its not rocket science. Our diet sucks. It's mainly due to the preservatives, sugars and highly processed food we allow companies to feed us. Europeans have much better oversight and restrictions. But you know, thats not as profitable, so we don't do it here.
Also, we DRIVE everywhere. Look at obesity rates in cities compared to rural America.

FWIW, Europeans don't have better oversight and restrictions. There are just different naming/labeling conventions in the US vs the EU. So the US labels the constituent parts of ingredients, including the chemical names, while the EU does not. Heinz ketchup is the same in the US and the EU but what is labeled as "natural flavorings" in the EU is broken down into the different chemicals in the US. The EU bans somethings allowed in the US and the US bans somethings allowed in the EU (in particular I am thinking of how the US has stricter requirements around radiation in food).

However I totally agree that American diets suck and how car culture leads to obesity. Americans eat way too much processed crap and sit constantly all day. The amount of people who are comfortable drinking regular soda is crazy. If you tried to eat the amount of sugar in a can of coke (~26 grams), you'd puke your guts out. I am highly conscious of the amount of sugar in what I eat/drink. Same for sodium, way too much of it in our foods. Like you said, exercising is the other big thing. Most Americans are absurdly stationary. Sit in a car to work, sit in the office all day, sit in the car again, sit in front of the TV. People need to just walk more. Portion sizes are another big thing, American portion sizes are out of control.

 

[loveoysters]

The sooner we all accept that we need universal health care the better.

Yep, we need something like how the VA works for veterans-NOT

 

[scotchtiger]

You're already paying for it in a lot of cases. If people don't have insurance and are going to the ER, etc. But right now you're paying for more people since it's once issues have gotten bad and have a lot more that is needed.

So you think we can implement universal healthcare, our access to high quality healthcare will only improve (ie this won't create longer wait times) and there will be no need to increase taxes to pay for it? Because you're saying we will swap unnecessary, government funded ER costs for high quality universal health coverage for 330M Americans?

 

[Spencer_York]

So you think we can implement universal healthcare, our access to high quality healthcare will only improve (ie this won't create longer wait times) and there will be no need to increase taxes to pay for it? Because you're saying we will swap unnecessary, government funded ER costs for high quality universal health coverage for 330M Americans?

If stuff is properly funded it should work properly. Somehow every other member of the OECD has figured out universal healthcare but us. We spend the most on healthcare out of any country in the world but have some of the worst first world health outcomes. Healthcare shouldn't be a for profit industry since you'd pay whatever you can if you or a loved one had cancer.

 

[UrHuckleberry]

So you think we can implement universal healthcare, our access to high quality healthcare will only improve (ie this won't create longer wait times) and there will be no need to increase taxes to pay for it? Because you're saying we will swap unnecessary, government funded ER costs for high quality universal health coverage for 330M Americans?

I actually don't think I said any of that. Some of those things aren't even close to what I stated. Who are you arguing against?

 

[scotchtiger]

If stuff is properly funded it should work properly. Somehow every other member of the OECD has figured out universal healthcare but us. We spend the most on healthcare out of any country in the world but have some of the worst first world health outcomes. Healthcare shouldn't be a for profit industry since you'd pay whatever you can if you or a loved one had cancer.

As I've mentioned in this thread, we have many issues leading to those costs. It's not just the funding structure. Lifestyle and obesity (43% vs. 17% in EU) are obviously huge, huge factors, but also the complexity of our sprawling provider systems. Little different to manage in substantially smaller geographic countries with largely homogenous populations.

Changing who pays for it without overhauling those elements does nothing but shift the financial burden to high tax payers.

 

[scotchtiger]

I actually don't think I said any of that. Some of those things aren't even close to what I stated. Who are you arguing against?

You mentioned that I am already paying for it. My point is that sure, I'm paying for some Medicare and Medicaid waste, but that's a fraction of what it will take to fund a high quality, high access universal healthcare system for 330M Americans. Do you think that will require additional taxes to fund? And who will pay those?

 

[Spencer_York]

As I've mentioned in this thread, we have many issues leading to those costs. It's not just the funding structure. Lifestyle and obesity (43% vs. 17% in EU) are obviously huge, huge factors, but also the complexity of our sprawling provider systems. Little different to manage in substantially smaller geographic countries with largely homogenous populations.

Changing who pays for it without overhauling those elements does nothing but shift the financial burden to high tax payers.

I agree about lifestyle for sure and about the provider system. Insurance companies have a ve$ted interest in making it as complicated as possible

 

[other1]

Some of the messages around this have been absolutely appalling. I work in this industry and have several colleagues that were friends with Brian. He's a husband and father. This is a horrible tragedy and devastating for many people. That should be everyone's first thought. Not whining about claims denials, which is a symptom of many other issues in US healthcare. Not some devious plot by a chief executive many rungs removed from the claims process.

The CEO sets the tone

 

[TequilasForLoss]

So it’s just pure, complete coincidence that every country with universal healthcare has a significantly lower obesity rate? There’s no link at all between every citizen having cheap, easy access to healthcare and those same citizens making healthier choices?

Another thing those countries have the onions to do is banning craptastic ingredients in foods.

 

[UrHuckleberry]

You mentioned that I am already paying for it. My point is that sure, I'm paying for some Medicare and Medicaid waste, but that's a fraction of what it will take to fund a high quality, high access universal healthcare system for 330M Americans. Do you think that will require additional taxes to fund? And who will pay those?

I do expect it would take more taxes, but right now both employer and employees everywhere are paying middle men (insurance companies). If me and my employer are no longer paying those amounts, and my taxes/my employers taxes were raised by a similar amount, I would not see much financial impact. And the people currently not paying for insurance, are also the people currently not paying for taxes.

At the end of the day, I am not going to tell you everything with universal healthcare is rainbows and gluten free cupcakes. But I do believe that people being willing to go to the doctor more early on can help overall health outlook. Which was my messaging in this thread and what I was responding to.

I also do agree obesity and overall health are a real thing and we should strive to find some way to attack the issue.

 

[CUTiger1977]

Looks like they caught the POS killer.

Suspect detained in manhunt for UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson's killer

Luigi Mangione, who was detained at a McDonald's in Altoona, Pa., has been identified as the suspect believed to have shot and killed UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson last Wednesday in New York City.

www.foxnews.com

x.com

x.com

 

[dpic73]

 

[firegiver]

FWIW, Europeans don't have better oversight and restrictions. There are just different naming/labeling conventions in the US vs the EU. So the US labels the constituent parts of ingredients, including the chemical names, while the EU does not. Heinz ketchup is the same in the US and the EU but what is labeled as "natural flavorings" in the EU is broken down into the different chemicals in the US. The EU bans somethings allowed in the US and the US bans somethings allowed in the EU (in particular I am thinking of how the US has stricter requirements around radiation in food).

However I totally agree that American diets suck and how car culture leads to obesity. Americans eat way too much processed crap and sit constantly all day. The amount of people who are comfortable drinking regular soda is crazy. If you tried to eat the amount of sugar in a can of coke (~26 grams), you'd puke your guts out. I am highly conscious of the amount of sugar in what I eat/drink. Same for sodium, way too much of it in our foods. Like you said, exercising is the other big thing. Most Americans are absurdly stationary. Sit in a car to work, sit in the office all day, sit in the car again, sit in front of the TV. People need to just walk more. Portion sizes are another big thing, American portion sizes are out of control.

Hmmm I don't know if what you are saying about labeling is true... I'd have to go research and right now im lazy.
But to continue the conversation, I'd also state that Europeans have a much lower cost of living and a lot of families survive on one income. This allows for a lot more home cooked meals and less take out trash.

 

[scotchtiger]

I do expect it would take more taxes, but right now both employer and employees everywhere are paying middle men (insurance companies). If me and my employer are no longer paying those amounts, and my taxes/my employers taxes were raised by a similar amount, I would not see much financial impact. And the people currently not paying for insurance, are also the people currently not paying for taxes.

At the end of the day, I am not going to tell you everything with universal healthcare is rainbows and gluten free cupcakes. But I do believe that people being willing to go to the doctor more early on can help overall health outlook. Which was my messaging in this thread and what I was responding to.

I also do agree obesity and overall health are a real thing and we should strive to find some way to attack the issue.

Perhaps I'm just too close to it all, but that's not how it will play out. The transition will be far more complex than that and the federal government will not be able to manage everything, much less implement sophisticated cost containment strategies that due keep overall costs down.

Keep in mind that health plans run on an average of around 3-3.5% margin. So even if the middle men surrender that back to the market, a 3% reduction in premiums/costs/taxes doesn't do that much.

And on funding, all non-poors pay the same premiums for the most part. If you shift the funding model to taxes, now the people paying higher %s will bear a disproportionate share of the burden. And it will be politically difficult to raise taxes on the middle class, so a small percentage of us will be penalized even further. So it's not the clean shift you describe in your first paragraph.

 

[fatpiggy]

 

[TigerGrowls]