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Willence

The Jack Dunlap Club
Gold Member
Dec 26, 2003
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Just watched this and listened to some things from the Trump rally in Ohio this weekend. You know, the one where he was trying to help J.D. Vance and said that Vance is kissing his ass for his support. Yeah, nothing wrong with Trump at all, right?

Then there was this...



Just awkward and disturbing. Just further evidence that this celebrity culture we have created has infected people everywhere. The guy is not even a competent leader and people seemingly worship him. So many better choices for next time. I really pray he doesn't run and I hope some people who have good hearts and desires here will realize it's time to move on from this embarrassing circus.
 
Just watched this and listened to some things from the Trump rally in Ohio this weekend. You know, the one where he was trying to help J.D. Vance and said that Vance is kissing his ass for his support. Yeah, nothing wrong with Trump at all, right?

Then there was this...



Just awkward and disturbing. Just further evidence that this celebrity culture we have created has infected people everywhere. The guy is not even a competent leader and people seemingly worship him. So many better choices for next time. I really pray he doesn't run and I hope some people who have good hearts and desires here will realize it's time to move on from this embarrassing circus.

Dude, that's really disturbing to watch. I continue to be baffled by how Donald Freaking Trump has this level of power over people. That guy is a con artist of the highest level. It really is Jim Jones like. His speech pattern even sounds similar to the final recording from Jonestown.

I really pray we get as far away from fanaticism on both sides and get some sanity back in our politics.
 
At least everyone here agrees on something. The US desperately needs competent people on both sides who work together. Wasn't a fan of Bill Clinton personally (ie. his lifestyle), but I really believe you have to go back to his Presidency to find both sides working together (whether either side wanted to or not).

That's been a while.........
 
Dude, that's really disturbing to watch. I continue to be baffled by how Donald Freaking Trump has this level of power over people. That guy is a con artist of the highest level. It really is Jim Jones like. His speech pattern even sounds similar to the final recording from Jonestown.

I really pray we get as far away from fanaticism on both sides and get some sanity back in our politics.
It really did sound like the Jonestown tape.
 
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Looked into this. That is not an accurate post. It was not passed out to everyone in any organizing fashion. Someone may have been passing them out on their own, but it wasn't being distributed as part of the organizing of the event. Amazingly, you can actually get it on Amazon. It's blasphemous and a total load of crap but it is out there. Hard to believe someone could be that stupid.
 
At least everyone here agrees on something. The US desperately needs competent people on both sides who work together. Wasn't a fan of Bill Clinton personally (ie. his lifestyle), but I really believe you have to go back to his Presidency to find both sides working together (whether either side wanted to or not).

That's been a while.........

He was also our last fiscally conservative president. That was in large part because he was pragmatic and willing to do what he had to in concert with the Republicans. Nevertheless, he did do a good job in many areas. He would be a far right conservative today. That's how badly we have drifted left and how desperately we need to reverse course.
 
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Just watched this and listened to some things from the Trump rally in Ohio this weekend. You know, the one where he was trying to help J.D. Vance and said that Vance is kissing his ass for his support. Yeah, nothing wrong with Trump at all, right?

Then there was this...



Just awkward and disturbing. Just further evidence that this celebrity culture we have created has infected people everywhere. The guy is not even a competent leader and people seemingly worship him. So many better choices for next time. I really pray he doesn't run and I hope some people who have good hearts and desires here will realize it's time to move on from this embarrassing circus.
Willence. I love your viewpoints and from what I can tell we agree almost uniformly on most topics, but you are an example of someone on the right with TDS imo. The top video 100% of what Trump stated is true. He has the nuts to state the plain truth and some people just cant take it apparently. The bottom video a lot of it is opinion that some will agree with like me and a lot of others will disagree with but Trump has an absolute right to say it.

All of you notice the thousands and thousands that are flocking to hear what Donald J Trump has to say and he has not even declared to be running 2024 yet. He was filling arenas in 2021 too. There is no historical comparison to the phenomenon of Donald Trump. I am 100% on the Trump Train. I dont think many minds will be changed at this point. You are either with him or against him.
 
Willence. I love your viewpoints and from what I can tell we agree almost uniformly on most topics, but you are an example of someone on the right with TDS imo. The top video 100% of what Trump stated is true. He has the nuts to state the plain truth and some people just cant take it apparently. The bottom video a lot of it is opinion that some will agree with like me and a lot of others will disagree with but Trump has an absolute right to say it.

All of you notice the thousands and thousands that are flocking to hear what Donald J Trump has to say and he has not even declared to be running 2024 yet. He was filling arenas in 2021 too. There is no historical comparison to the phenomenon of Donald Trump. I am 100% on the Trump Train. I dont think many minds will be changed at this point. You are either with him or against him.
So nothing weird about a Presidential candidate openly embracing Q and getting Nazi-like salutes at his hate rallies? Just normal, nothing to look at campaigning?

 
It's no wonder why he wasn't invited to the Queen's funeral. The guy is a f'n jerk!!
 
He was also our last fiscally conservative president. That was in large part because he was pragmatic and willing to do what he had to in concert with the Republicans. Nevertheless, he did do a good job in many areas. He would be a far right conservative today. That's how badly we have drifted left and how desperately we need to reverse course.
surely you jest. practically every piece of research on the political shift in the US over the years tells the opposite.

 
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surely you jest. practically every piece of research on the political shift in the US over the years tells the opposite.


Here you go:

1996 Dem Platform

1960 Dem Platform

Notice that Pew chose 1972 to start their graph when the Dems ran George McGovern. McGovern managed to lose 49 states because he was such a raging liberal. The author is a partisan which is fine but don't come here acting like it's valid research.

Democrats are demonstrably left of themselves in 1996 on the following:

Military
Foreign Policy
Welfare
Crime
Police
Redistribution of Wealth
Tax Policy
Education
Abortion
Rule of Law
Governance

Did I miss anything?

Both parties have drifted in areas toward extremes. What do you feel Republicans are more extreme about?

Take a few minutes and read the party platforms from 1960 on. It is stunning how far the Dems have moved.
 
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Here you go:

1996 Dem Platform

1960 Dem Platform

Notice that Pew chose 1972 to start their graph when the Dems ran George McGovern. McGovern managed to lose 49 states because he was such a raging liberal. The author is a partisan which is fine but don't come here acting like it's valid research.

Democrats are demonstrably left of themselves in 1996 on the following:

Military
Foreign Policy
Welfare
Crime
Police
Redistribution of Wealth
Tax Policy
Education
Abortion
Rule of Law
Governance

Did I miss anything?

Both parties have drifted in areas toward extremes. What do you feel Republicans are more extreme about?

Take a few minutes and read the party platforms from 1960 on. It is stunning how far the Dems have moved.
i don't really have any interest in looking at political platforms pre-Voting Rights Act. the '60s were rife with political activism and the switching of many religious and blue collar voters from D to R due to the southern strategy.

edit: also, the methodology is based on DW-NOMINATE, a method of scaling lawmakers’ ideological positions based on their roll-call votes. It is the latest iteration of a procedure first developed by political scientists Keith T. Poole and Howard Rosenthal in the early 1980s.

it has nothing to do with the authors purported political leanings
 
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He was also our last fiscally conservative president. That was in large part because he was pragmatic and willing to do what he had to in concert with the Republicans. Nevertheless, he did do a good job in many areas. He would be a far right conservative today. That's how badly we have drifted left and how desperately we need to reverse course.

Clinton would not be far right, but he would be center right. Far right republicans are QAnon crazy trump cult members.

Reagan would be center left by today's standards.

And your OP is totally wrong. Trump is the only way for republicans to win. trump 2024. trump, trump, trump! The only reason he has not said he is running yet is b/c the fear of how that will affect this year's election.

trump is the way.
 
Willence. I love your viewpoints and from what I can tell we agree almost uniformly on most topics, but you are an example of someone on the right with TDS imo. The top video 100% of what Trump stated is true. He has the nuts to state the plain truth and some people just cant take it apparently. The bottom video a lot of it is opinion that some will agree with like me and a lot of others will disagree with but Trump has an absolute right to say it.

All of you notice the thousands and thousands that are flocking to hear what Donald J Trump has to say and he has not even declared to be running 2024 yet. He was filling arenas in 2021 too. There is no historical comparison to the phenomenon of Donald Trump. I am 100% on the Trump Train. I dont think many minds will be changed at this point. You are either with him or against him.

I do not have Trump Derangement at all. Let me explain myself.

First, I was never a fan. I campaigned as hard as I could to as many people as I could during the primary against Trump. He's just not my kind of person. Big mouth, turns on people who don't do what he wants, self serving, dishonest, corrupt to his own interests, womanizer and someone who can generally never get enough of himself.

But aside from that, here's why I feel the way I do:

1. He does not inspire loyalty in those around him. He was right on so many issues but failed to work to build a consensus. He turned on his VP in the most vicious way after Pence had been loyal to him throughout his presidency

2. He treated my governor like crap on multiple occasions. Brian Kemp has been a very good governor in Georgia. He's been consistent and not overly partisan. He's tried to do what he thinks is right for all the people in Georgia. He saved us from Covid hell. And when he was among the first to open his state, Trump ripped him for it. When the election didn't go the way Trump wanted, he blamed a lot of it on Kemp. He also cost this state two Senate seats with this petulance and small mindedness.

3. He sat back and watched while 1/6 happened instead of speaking out IMMEDIATELY to stop the riot. We've been beat to death with this and it's turned things even more poisonous in this country.

4. He didn't have many, if any, real plans during his Presidency. He was great in that he mostly got out of the way and I loved that. I loved lowering taxes. That being said, his foreign policy was better though he was often a bit too belligerent for my liking in how he got things done. All the while however, he spent like a drunken sailor and exploded our debt even more.

5. He goes around talking about all that's wrong. He has every little in the way of specifics as to what he would do to fix it. Getting out of the way is a good start but it's not going to be enough because we have a nation that is so divided that some form of diplomacy between the parties is going to be required. We have to stop this and build a consensus among the people of this nation

Lastly, there are so many better choices. Trump knows a lot of things that are important and other leaders should recognize the frustration and anger in our rural communities that people on the left regard with absolute disdain and vitriol. We need a President who is going to help build bridges and implement long term policies that can help re-establish order in our nation. Trump just isn't that guy. I am not deranged. I just prefer something different. I'm an actual constitutional conservative. Trump is about as far from that as we can find in the Republican side of things.
 
surely you jest. practically every piece of research on the political shift in the US over the years tells the opposite.


It seems that focuses more on polarization and partisanship than the actual conservative or liberal nature of policy. Bill Clinton advocated work for welfare and personal responsibility. Do you think that would be a democrat-led initiative today?

It makes sense that Republicans have become more partisan because dems have drifted further left. If you had dems promoting this message, perhaps there would be more middle ground and less polarization: "...to end welfare as we know it and transform our broken welfare system by promoting the fundamental values of work, responsibility, and family."

 
It seems that focuses more on polarization and partisanship than the actual conservative or liberal nature of policy. Bill Clinton advocated work for welfare and personal responsibility. Do you think that would be a democrat-led initiative today?

It makes sense that Republicans have become more partisan because dems have drifted further left. If you had dems promoting this message, perhaps there would be more middle ground and less polarization: "...to end welfare as we know it and transform our broken welfare system by promoting the fundamental values of work, responsibility, and family."

I don’t disagree with this. I think there are plenty of moderate dems who could win with that messaging - hell, the more extreme left candidates all mostly lost in the most recent elections to more moderate dems. I don’t disagree there has been a leftward shift among democrats, but I would argue there’s been a much more rightward shift among elected R politicians. Especially wrt most recent elections
 
It seems that focuses more on polarization and partisanship than the actual conservative or liberal nature of policy. Bill Clinton advocated work for welfare and personal responsibility. Do you think that would be a democrat-led initiative today?

It makes sense that Republicans have become more partisan because dems have drifted further left. If you had dems promoting this message, perhaps there would be more middle ground and less polarization: "...to end welfare as we know it and transform our broken welfare system by promoting the fundamental values of work, responsibility, and family."



If you are arguing that the current polarization that exists is all on the democrats... all I can say is yikes.
 
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the only people whod actually do a good job in govt want nothing to do with being in govt
200w.gif
 
Willence. I love your viewpoints and from what I can tell we agree almost uniformly on most topics, but you are an example of someone on the right with TDS imo. The top video 100% of what Trump stated is true. He has the nuts to state the plain truth and some people just cant take it apparently. The bottom video a lot of it is opinion that some will agree with like me and a lot of others will disagree with but Trump has an absolute right to say it.

All of you notice the thousands and thousands that are flocking to hear what Donald J Trump has to say and he has not even declared to be running 2024 yet. He was filling arenas in 2021 too. There is no historical comparison to the phenomenon of Donald Trump. I am 100% on the Trump Train. I dont think many minds will be changed at this point. You are either with him or against him.
The bold part is exactly why he can not win. Any objective person should realize he has less support now than he did in the last election. By less, I mean fewer supporters. Many, like you, may be stronger supporters than you were before the last election, but that does not matter at all. It is not the fervor his supporters have that matters, it is how many supporters he has that matters.
 
When you illeglly spy upon a president and stall his presidency under false pretenses (scumbags) like him or not he should get another term.

If you didnt want him to have another term then you should have beat him honestly.

Just here to say MAGA.
 
I don’t disagree with this. I think there are plenty of moderate dems who could win with that messaging - hell, the more extreme left candidates all mostly lost in the most recent elections to more moderate dems. I don’t disagree there has been a leftward shift among democrats, but I would argue there’s been a much more rightward shift among elected R politicians. Especially wrt most recent elections

What are examples of this rightward shift?
 
What are examples of this rightward shift?

I'll let former republican speaker of the house John Boener answer that:

When I ask Boehner whether the Republican Party can survive this, he cuts me off. “There is no Rep—.” He stops himself. “You were about to say, ‘There is no Republican Party,’” I tell him. He shrugs. “There is. But what does it even mean? Donald Trump’s not a Republican. He’s not a Democrat. He’s a populist. He doesn’t have an ideological bone in his body.” So who, I ask, is the leader of the party? “There is nobody,” he says.

On the House Freedom Caucus, whose members at times have stubbornly resisted the G.O.P.'s legislative agenda:

“They can’t tell you what they’re for. They can tell you everything they’re against. They’re anarchists. They want total chaos. Tear it all down and start over. That’s where their mindset is.”
 
I'll let former republican speaker of the house John Boener answer that:

When I ask Boehner whether the Republican Party can survive this, he cuts me off. “There is no Rep—.” He stops himself. “You were about to say, ‘There is no Republican Party,’” I tell him. He shrugs. “There is. But what does it even mean? Donald Trump’s not a Republican. He’s not a Democrat. He’s a populist. He doesn’t have an ideological bone in his body.” So who, I ask, is the leader of the party? “There is nobody,” he says.

On the House Freedom Caucus, whose members at times have stubbornly resisted the G.O.P.'s legislative agenda:

“They can’t tell you what they’re for. They can tell you everything they’re against. They’re anarchists. They want total chaos. Tear it all down and start over. That’s where their mindset is.”

That's gibberish and in no way illustrates how the party has moved to the right. I'm asking for specifics which may be a bit much for you. But go search through Twitter and see if you can find something.
 
What are examples of this rightward shift?
  1. Now that it's up to the states, several GOP senators have come out supporting a federal law in place regarding abortion. So much for wanting to keep it up to the states.
  2. Several GOP nominees and state officials have promoted a desire to ban contraceptives in addition to making abortion illegal.
  3. 157 House members of the GOP voted against codifying same-sex marriage this year.
  4. Texas GOP platform listing homosexuality as " an abnormal lifestyle choice," the 40-page resolution reads. "We believe there should be no granting of special legal entitlements or creation of special status for homosexual behavior, regardless of state of origin, and we oppose any criminal or civil penalties against those who oppose homosexuality out of faith, conviction, or belief in traditional values." - i could see this being a stretch to say it's evidence of a further rightward shift, it's more the Texas GOP staying the same bigoted rednecks that they've been throughout history while the rest of society continues to evolve.
  5. Historical GOP candidates are losing at alarming rates to far right - read: MAGA - nominees.
    1. Rise of nationalism and "America First"
    2. If you don't know anything about the America First movement, i recommend you read about it.
  6. Finally, shit like this -


that's just a couple of things off the top of my head only covering the last like 2 years
 
That's gibberish and in no way illustrates how the party has moved to the right. I'm asking for specifics which may be a bit much for you. But go search through Twitter and see if you can find something.

In your world, direct quotes on the state of your party from the former leader of it are "gibberish". Gotcha. Let me guess... Boehner is deep state!
 
  1. Now that it's up to the states, several GOP senators have come out supporting a federal law in place regarding abortion. So much for wanting to keep it up to the states.
  2. Several GOP nominees and state officials have promoted a desire to ban contraceptives in addition to making abortion illegal.
  3. 157 House members of the GOP voted against codifying same-sex marriage this year.
  4. Texas GOP platform listing homosexuality as " an abnormal lifestyle choice," the 40-page resolution reads. "We believe there should be no granting of special legal entitlements or creation of special status for homosexual behavior, regardless of state of origin, and we oppose any criminal or civil penalties against those who oppose homosexuality out of faith, conviction, or belief in traditional values." - i could see this being a stretch to say it's evidence of a further rightward shift, it's more the Texas GOP staying the same bigoted rednecks that they've been throughout history while the rest of society continues to evolve.
  5. Historical GOP candidates are losing at alarming rates to far right - read: MAGA - nominees.
    1. Rise of nationalism and "America First"
    2. If you don't know anything about the America First movement, i recommend you read about it.
  6. Finally, shit like this -


that's just a couple of things off the top of my head only covering the last like 2 years


Thank you so much for this.

You said Republicans have moved right and that "practically every piece of research on the political shift in the US over the years tells the opposite."

Now let's go to the map and take a look, shall we?

I will take your points in the same order you typed them:

1. So let me get this straight. What some people in a party may say is now used to brand the entire party? Does that mean we can take the crap the far left loons say and make that mainstream policy now? Or does this only go in one direction as most things do these days. Mind you that many are opposed to a national standard in this area. I am one of those people as are most Republicans if you go by polling data. So what's the worry? Also, how is that a rightward shift? Democrats say all the time we need to be like Europe... well until we don't need to be like Europe I guess. In Europe, 12-15 weeks is the standard. There is almost no nation that is more barbaric about abortion than the United States.

2. So what a nominee says is now applied to all? Again see above if you want to make that the standard, I don't think you'll enjoy the results. There are absolutely idiotic things said by candidates on both sides. Please reference where this is mainstream or national policy now? Thanks!

3. The 157 House members voting against codifying gay marriage is only bad if you don't like at what was proposed. There were no 1st Amendment considerations in that bill. If the leadership of the House truly wanted to pass that in a unifying way, they would have included 1st Amendment protections. Also, defending marriage as between a man and a woman was what pretty much everyone did until very recently. I'm old enough to remember when this was what Obama said:



Also I can remember when Bill Clinton signed the Defense of Marriage Act. You know the one that 85 Senators voted to pass and the House voted overwhelmingly to approve.


But you're saying Republicans have moved right? Umm how?

4. If we can actually read this, the only real label being hurled around is yours toward Republicans in Texas. The definition of abnormal is:

abnormal​

(æbˈnɔːməl)
adj
1. not normal; deviating from the usual or typical; extraordinary

Homosexuality is abnormal by that definition. It is also a free country and the progress we've made toward recognizing that gay people are just people is wonderful. Our closest family friend is gay. His life has been made considerably easier in recent years by the progress we've made toward treating everyone equally in this country. That is something I am 100% in favor of.

However, I am opposed to any and all protected classes. That term should not exist at any level. The freedoms and liberties protected by our Constitution should be enjoyed by all citizens in our nation. If we strive for that, we don't need protected classes and I am in favor of legislation that will remove the existence of any and all protected classes. So what exactly about this law offends you so much other than you want to read it in a way that doesn't apply to what is written?

I certainly would have handled this differently if it were my legislation but what exactly is so bigoted and why do you hate rednecks? Do we need to make them a protected class against people like you? Or do you just have a Constitutionally protected opinion? Is it now our goal to pass laws and legislation to make everyone agree on things? How's that OK to do?

5. I agree that a lot of really bad candidates have won on the GOP side. A lot of that is due to Democrats supporting them so as to make for an easier general election. I wonder though... if these GOP people are really a threat to our republic as has been stated, why would the Democrats support them in the primary and put at risk the possibility they could work with the Russians and steal the election? Could it be that this is all BS.


Also, putting America first isn't necessarily a bad thing if done in ways that benefit all people in our nation. We do have a lot of problems that have been avoided for far too long. Deciding to make those front-burner issues is a good thing, not a bad thing. That being said, there is an element of nationalism we see all around us. Which again I just have to wonder why Democrats are supporting those candidates for office?

6. This one is too easy. Everyone has been contesting elections since 2000. It's been awful and both sides have engaged in this crap.


More Democrats objected to the 2016 election than did Republicans in 2020.


So while you may honestly believe these things. They are just not right. You're welcome to continue being wrong but to say that Democrats haven't moved left at warp speed is to ignore all reality. I could go on and on with examples of this.
 
In your world, direct quotes on the state of your party from the former leader of it are "gibberish". Gotcha. Let me guess... Boehner is deep state!

That is his opinion. I disagreed with him frequently when he was Speaker. I will say this though. He did have a willingness to work across the isle that both sides could learn from. He's welcome to his own views. He's earned that right and even if he didn't he still has that right. He was a big government Republican and he's always had a disdain for those who don't agree with him on his side of the fence.
 
I don’t disagree with this. I think there are plenty of moderate dems who could win with that messaging - hell, the more extreme left candidates all mostly lost in the most recent elections to more moderate dems. I don’t disagree there has been a leftward shift among democrats, but I would argue there’s been a much more rightward shift among elected R politicians. Especially wrt most recent elections

I don't even know if it's a shift "right" so much as a shift to crazytown. We get the Majorie Taylor Greens of the world now instead of boring gray haired white guys who want low taxes and reasoned spending. I'm not even sure of the policies of her ilk other than MAGA, election fraud, groomers, libs are ruining the country.

I'd love for the GOP to clean up that element and replace it with people with actual ideas.
 
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