Well, my concern over tax increases is being elevated to fear

[scotchtiger]

I mean the hits are coming from all sides. This is ridiculous.

Some of you may be unfamiliar with capital gains taxes, but if this is implemented with a "cliff" approach, it's completely punitive. Today, if you make a basic income, you pay 15% on your long-term investment income. Once you earn over a certain amount, you pay 20%. It's a cliff, so once you earn a dollar over that ordinary income threshold, all of your long term investment income is hit at the higher rate. It's dumb.

I could actually stomach an adjustment to capital gains. But linking ordinary income and capital gains rates isn't the right or equitable approach. There should simply be a tiered structure applied to long-term gains, just like ordinary income.

For example: Your first $500K of long-term gains is taxed at 15%, next $500K taxed at 20%, the rest ($1M+) taxed at 25%. My proposal would be to make those rates inclusive of the 3.8% ACA surcharge.

Here are some of the tax increases coming. And they will affect millions of hard-working, productive people - not just the billionaires and super rich. This is on top of an increase to the corporate tax rate.

Raising income taxes on the rich
Biden wants to reverse a key plank of the Republicans' 2017 tax cuts by returning the top marginal income tax rate to 39.6%, up from 37%. It would apply only to those in the top 1%.

Raising the capital gains tax rate
The proposal would require households earning more than $1 million annually to pay higher taxes on capital gains, which typically make up the largest share of income for the wealthy.
The long-term capital gains of these taxpayers would be subject to the top marginal rate for income -- currently 37%, but rising to 39.6% under Biden's plan.
Right now, investments held for at least one year are subject to a top federal capital gains rate of 20%. Individuals earning $200,000 a year and married couples making $250,000 a year pay an additional 3.8% tax on their capital gains to help fund the Affordable Care Act.

Ending breaks for real estate investors
Also, he wants to end a tax break that allows real estate investors to defer taxation when they exchange property for gains greater than $500,000.

 

[scotchtiger]

The capital gains thing is ridiculous, but the real estate investment tax also hurts those of us who use 1031 exchanges to grow our real estate portfolios. I'm guessing the new approach may be to create fractional ownership among multiple LLCs to deflate the dollar value on the gains per transaction, keeping them below the $500K threshold. The only people making money here will be CPAs and attorneys.

 

[okclem]

LoL bruh, nobody here believes this is going to impact you in any way. Stop being such a poser.

But, it's about fvcking time the actual wealthy people started paying their fair share.

 

[scotchtiger]

LoL bruh, nobody here believes this is going to impact you in any way. Stop being such a poser.

But, it's about fvcking time the actual wealthy people started paying their fair share.

Whether it does or doesn't isn't the point.

Biden is pushing a policy that says once you make a dollar over a certain amount, ALL of your long term investment income is taxed at 43.4%. That's absolutely ridiculous.

Define "actual wealthy" people by the way. I know for sure that I pay my share. And I will see tax increases if the democrat proposals find their way into law.

 

[okclem]

Whether it does or doesn't isn't the point.

Biden is pushing a policy that says once you make a dollar over a certain amount, ALL of your long term investment income is taxed at 43.4%. That's absolutely ridiculous.

Define "actual wealthy" people by the way. I know for sure that I pay my share. And I will see tax increases if the democrat proposals find their way into law.

For the purposes of this discussion, actually wealthy means anyone who would be impacted financially by Biden's proposal. You don't qualify by that criteria (or any other if we're being honest). This is disingenuous outrage on your part.

 

[scotchtiger]

LoL bruh, nobody here believes this is going to impact you in any way. Stop being such a poser.

But, it's about fvcking time the actual wealthy people started paying their fair share.

BTW, you have some pretty impassioned political views. I'm curious as to your real-world experience.

Have you ever paid meaningful income tax (ie 20%+ effective rate)?

Do you have kids? A family depending on you to provide for them and their future?

 

[scotchtiger]

For the purposes of this discussion, actually wealthy means anyone who would be impacted financially by Biden's proposal. You don't qualify by that criteria (or any other if we're being honest). This is disingenuous outrage on your part.

Lol, ok. This is pretty much like all of your political posts. Stating something as fact that is actually fiction.

 

[okclem]

BTW, you have some pretty impassioned political views. I'm curious as to your real-world experience.

Have you ever paid meaningful income tax (ie 20%+ effective rate)?

Do you have kids? A family depending on you to provide for them and their future?

You think real world experience has anything to do with someone's tax bracket? LoL jesus christ you live in a bubble. I have 1 daughter.

 

[nytigerfan]

I mean the hits are coming from all sides. This is ridiculous.

Some of you may be unfamiliar with capital gains taxes, but if this is implemented with a "cliff" approach, it's completely punitive. Today, if you make a basic income, you pay 15% on your long-term investment income. Once you earn over a certain amount, you pay 20%. It's a cliff, so once you earn a dollar over that ordinary income threshold, all of your long term investment income is hit at the higher rate. It's dumb.

I could actually stomach an adjustment to capital gains. But linking ordinary income and capital gains rates isn't the right or equitable approach. There should simply be a tiered structure applied to long-term gains, just like ordinary income.

For example: Your first $500K of long-term gains is taxed at 15%, next $500K taxed at 20%, the rest ($1M+) taxed at 25%. My proposal would be to make those rates inclusive of the 3.8% ACA surcharge.

Here are some of the tax increases coming. And they will affect millions of hard-working, productive people - not just the billionaires and super rich. This is on top of an increase to the corporate tax rate.

Raising income taxes on the rich
Biden wants to reverse a key plank of the Republicans' 2017 tax cuts by returning the top marginal income tax rate to 39.6%, up from 37%. It would apply only to those in the top 1%.

Raising the capital gains tax rate
The proposal would require households earning more than $1 million annually to pay higher taxes on capital gains, which typically make up the largest share of income for the wealthy.
The long-term capital gains of these taxpayers would be subject to the top marginal rate for income -- currently 37%, but rising to 39.6% under Biden's plan.
Right now, investments held for at least one year are subject to a top federal capital gains rate of 20%. Individuals earning $200,000 a year and married couples making $250,000 a year pay an additional 3.8% tax on their capital gains to help fund the Affordable Care Act.

Ending breaks for real estate investors
Also, he wants to end a tax break that allows real estate investors to defer taxation when they exchange property for gains greater than $500,000.

Let's just be clear, the tax hike will only affect 1.8% of the population. So when Fox News and other right wing media (and you) talks about it "hitting hard working families" they leave that part out (that it is only a small number) in an effort to produce more outrage.

I fully believe you when you say that it will affect your family, but the good news is for a family earning $400K to $700K you are essentially talking about a 1% increase. I would like to see the $400K threshold higher, but I think our country is at a point where we need some serious infrastructure investment, and where we need to increase upward mobility and income for lower classes in order to increase consumption. So I am OK with it.

Capital gains has been a hot button issue for the last 50 years. The republicans have done a masterful job in convincing normal mouth breather slobs that an increased capital gains would be the worst thing to ever happen, even though most of them outside the 1% will never be affected by it.

As for the real estate tax, I need to read more about it. A quick google search delivered very different interpretations about what it actually is.

My very real concern about this legislation is that there won't be enough enforcement put in place to go after the ultra wealthy. They always find a way around paying taxes. I have lived in central america in the past and saw first hand some of the extravagant off shore tax shelters and schemes first hand.

 

[scotchtiger]

Let's just be clear, the tax hike will only affect 1.8% of the population. So when Fox News and other right wing media (and you) talks about it "hitting hard working families" they leave that part out (that it is only a small number) in an effort to produce more outrage.

I fully believe you when you say that it will affect your family, but the good news is for a family earning $400K to $700K you are essentially talking about a 1% increase. I would like to see the $400K threshold higher, but I think our country is at a point where we need some serious infrastructure investment, and where we need to increase upward mobility and income for lower classes in order to increase consumption. So I am OK with it.

Capital gains has been a hot button issue for the last 50 years. The republicans have done a masterful job in convincing normal mouth breather slobs that an increased capital gains would be the worst thing to ever happen, even though most of them outside the 1% will never be affected by it.

My very real concern about this legislation is that there won't be enough enforcement put in place to go after the ultra wealthy. They always find a way around paying taxes. I have lived in central america in the past and saw first hand some of the extravagant off shore tax shelters and schemes first hand.

I agree with you on enforcement of the ultra wealthy. These policies really have nothing to do with them. That's a much bigger problem than someone making $400K not paying enough, but nothing is being done there.

The top bracket increase isn't as big of a deal as capital gains IMO. Capital gains can come in big swaths and depending on circumstances, the timing can be somewhat out of your control. Real estate sales, business divestiture, company stock gains, etc. This policy change could result in some serious damage to a single instance of gains that have taken years of work to build toward.

Many don't understand how it all works. They just see the numbers and think, oh yea, screw those rich people. It doesn't always work that way. You and posters like @iceheart08 always advocate for understanding the nuance in policy - I'm pointing out that this could erode the life's work of people by lumping them in with the ultra wealthy simply because of one year's income level.

 

[scotchtiger]

You think real world experience has anything to do with someone's tax bracket? LoL jesus christ you live in a bubble. I have 1 daughter.

I think your feelings about taxation may be affected by having actually had to pay a meaningful amount of them.

 

[iceheart08]

I agree with you on enforcement of the ultra wealthy. These policies really have nothing to do with them. That's a much bigger problem than someone making $400K not paying enough, but nothing is being done there.

The top bracket increase isn't as big of a deal as capital gains IMO. Capital gains can come in big swaths and depending on circumstances, the timing can be somewhat out of your control. Real estate sales, business divestiture, company stock gains, etc. This policy change could result in some serious damage to a single instance of gains that have taken years of work to build toward.

Many don't understand how it all works. They just see the numbers and think, oh yea, screw those rich people. It doesn't always work that way. You and posters like @iceheart08 always advocate for understanding the nuance in policy - I'm pointing out that this could erode the life's work of people by lumping them in with the ultra wealthy simply because of one year's income level.

I will agree with you that this is very nuanced and much of the loudest voices on both sides don't understand what is happening

 

[okclem]

I think your feelings about taxation may be affected by having actually had to pay a meaningful amount of them.

Okay, great. What does that have to do with real world experience?

 

[PawsFan_]

Nice to know that nearly half the gains I made on my 30+ years of risk I assumed investing in my retirement will given to the federal given who assumes no risk.

This ranks in stupidly with taxing social security.

 

[jakefest]

Nice to know that nearly half the gains I made on my 30+ years of risk I assumed investing in my retirement will given to the federal given who assumes no risk.

This ranks in stupidly with taxing social security.

Amen.....not to mention you paid income taxes once on your pre-investment money so this is now looking like double tax.

 

[nytigerfan]

Nice to know that nearly half the gains I made on my 30+ years of risk I assumed investing in my retirement will given to the federal given who assumes no risk.

This ranks in stupidly with taxing social security.

Do you earn $1MM+ annually?

 

[okclem]

Do you earn $1MM+ annually?

Of course he doesn't. None of these Trump worshipers on tiger illustrated do. Millionaires don't spend their days on message boards.

 

[jakefest]

Of course he doesn't. None of these Trump worshipers on tiger illustrated do. Millionaires don't spend their days on message boards.

I paid more in taxes than you made last year........I don't need to see your W2 to validate that, all kidding aside.

 

[okclem]

I paid more in taxes than you made last year........I don't need to see your W2 to validate that, all kidding aside.

That's amazing, we're all extremely impressed.

 

[jakefest]

That's amazing, we're all extremely impressed.

Wasn’t my point and even if you were impressed, you’d say you weren’t.

My point is stop saying the 1% don’t pay their fair share, it just isn’t true. The top .02% avoid paying full boat on millions of income and they still pay bucket loads more than you and even me. They will also avoid Biden’s tax hikes just like they did Obama’s and when they do, you’ll pay for it in whatever tax bracket you’re in. History should tell you that.

If you’re angry because you’re not in the 1% then that’s your fault. Be better.....it’s America for gods sake.

 

[nytigerfan]

I paid more in taxes than you made last year........I don't need to see your W2 to validate that, all kidding aside.

and you just admitted to being a Trump worshiper. Mr. Fair and Balanced.

 

[jakefest]

and you just admitted to being a Trump worshiper. Mr. Fair and Balanced.

That’s what you took out of that? I worship capitalism, which given all of the debates we’ve had, I figured that would have been clear.

 

[okclem]

Wasn’t my point and even if you were impressed, you’d say you weren’t.

My point is stop saying the 1% don’t pay their fair share, it just isn’t true. The top .02% avoid paying full boat on millions of income and they still pay bucket loads more than you and even me. They will also avoid Biden’s tax hikes just like they did Obama’s and when they do, you’ll pay for it in whatever tax bracket you’re in. History should tell you that.

If you’re angry because you’re not in the 1% then that’s your fault. Be better.....it’s America for gods sake.

I'm not angry about that at all. I don't really care much about money, as long as I've got enough to support myself and my daughter, and to pursue my inexpensive hobbies, I'm happy.

I know it's easier for you to believe this is all about petty jealousies, and that may be the case with some people, but it ain't with me.

 

[okclem]

That’s what you took out of that? I worship capitalism, which given all of the debates we’ve had, I figured that would have been clear.

You worship capitalism? LoL what an absurd thing to say on so many levels. And it's not even true. If you worshipped capitalism you'd have no issues with what your kind call cancel culture. That's unmitigated free market capitalism in action.

 

[jakefest]

You worship capitalism? LoL what an absurd thing to say on so many levels. And it's not even true. If you worshipped capitalism you'd have no issues with what your kind call cancel culture. That's unmitigated free market capitalism in action.

No, absurd is lobbying for a tax bracket that you aren’t in to pay more when they already prop most of the country up. That’s absurd and liberal. Im tired of having to carry you because you can’t pay your fair share. Do better

 

[okclem]

No, absurd is lobbying for a tax bracket that you aren’t in to pay more when they already prop most of the country up. That’s absurd and liberal. Im tired of having to carry you because you can’t pay your fair share. Do better

Oh, the unbearable burden of white maleness

 

[nytigerfan]

That’s what you took out of that? I worship capitalism, which given all of the debates we’ve had, I figured that would have been clear.

You can be a conservative republican without being a Trump worshiper. I have many friends and colleagues that fall under that group. I figured that would have been clear.

 

[jakefest]

Oh, the unbearable burden of white maleness

What does being white or a male have to do with it? And how do you know I’m either?

 

[jakefest]

What does being white or a male have to do with it? And how do you know I’m either?

Oh and what a bullsh*t response.....you’ll call me racist next to distract from the fact that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

 

[jakefest]

You can be a conservative republican without being a Trump worshiper. I have many friends and colleagues that fall under that group. I figured that would have been clear.

So you’re saying we aren’t friends or colleagues?

 

[scotchtiger]

You can be a conservative republican without being a Trump worshiper. I have many friends and colleagues that fall under that group. I figured that would have been clear.

 

[okclem]

What does being white or a male have to do with it? And how do you know I’m either?

It's like some of you think that every thread is an automatic reset. When you spend all year worshipping Trump, denouncing blm as radical marxism, etc., it's not hard to deduce who the white males are. I guess you could be a woman given all the complaining you do, but you're definitely white. I am too, there's no inherent shame in it.

 

[jakefest]

It's like some of you think that every thread is an automatic reset. When you spend all year worshipping Trump, denouncing blm as radical marxism, etc., it's not hard to deduce who the white males are. I guess you could be a woman given all the complaining you do, but you're definitely white. I am too, there's no inherent shame in it.

Yeah, no......you have me pegged all wrong. I wasn't and am still not a Trump worshiper but I am a huge fan of getting people in office who know now to manage a balance sheet/P&L. The answer every year shouldn't be more government spending, it should be why do our budgets continue to rise each year and how do we plug the runaway spend. Why have we spent trillions on poverty since 1964 and yet the poverty rate is still the same in 2021? But yes, let's raise taxes so the efficient and razor sharp government can spend it on corrupt and poorly ran programs.

Here's some advice for you since you like to float around here and hurl insults at everyone that might share a different opinion than you........go run a company and manage a P&L, balance sheet, board and be responsible for the livelihoods of a few hundred people then come back and tell me what you think of big government and how they spend money. I'll bet your perceptions change just like mine have over the years. Real world experience is often the catalyst for personal change of opinions and mindset. That isn't so distant to politics either.

BLM the org is Marxist and radical. They literally had all of that radical information on their website until someone smarter than the idiots running it advised them they might want to take it down. Why would Breonna Taylor and Michael Brown's family call them frauds and ask for some of the proceeds to reach the communities if they were on the up and up? BLM never registered as a not-for-profit, they are a Delaware limited liability company, which means there is no recourse for a founder using donated money to buy millions in real estate in 99% white neighborhoods. They also don't show up on the streets of Chicago when a 7 year old girl gets killed in a McDonalds drive through by another person of color and start injecting some of the millions they've raised to incorporate change. It's yet another politically motivated corruption vehicle that only shows up when a white cop hurts someone black, raises millions which never gets distributed and then demands power to tear down the system but doesn't suggest how they would fix the system. BLM the idea, is the vehicle that is easy to get behind and support. The org is a giant somehow legal ponzi scheme until they become a 5013C

 

[tgrharley]

LoL bruh, nobody here believes this is going to impact you in any way. Stop being such a poser.

But, it's about fvcking time the actual wealthy people started paying their fair share.

You really ARE a Dumb fck

 

[okclem]

You really ARE a Dumb fck

Got us another TI billionaire?

 

[tgrharley]

Wasn’t my point and even if you were impressed, you’d say you weren’t.

My point is stop saying the 1% don’t pay their fair share, it just isn’t true. The top .02% avoid paying full boat on millions of income and they still pay bucket loads more than you and even me. They will also avoid Biden’s tax hikes just like they did Obama’s and when they do, you’ll pay for it in whatever tax bracket you’re in. History should tell you that.

If you’re angry because you’re not in the 1% then that’s your fault. Be better.....it’s America for gods sake.

He is under 30, lives with his parents, thinks Mao and Stalin have the answers, wishes he lived in Cuba like Bernie, collects welfare or some kind of stipend from the gov and wants to be taken care of the rest of his life.

 

[okclem]

He is under 30, lives with his parents, thinks Mao and Stalin have the answers, wishes he lived in Cuba like Bernie, collects welfare or some kind of stipend from the gov and wants to be taken care of the rest of his life.

Nailed it

 

[nytigerfan]

Yeah, no......you have me pegged all wrong. I wasn't and am still not a Trump worshiper but I am a huge fan of getting people in office who know now to manage a balance sheet/P&L. The answer every year shouldn't be more government spending, it should be why do our budgets continue to rise each year and how do we plug the runaway spend. Why have we spent trillions on poverty since 1964 and yet the poverty rate is still the same in 2021? But yes, let's raise taxes so the efficient and razor sharp government can spend it on corrupt and poorly ran programs.

Here's some advice for you since you like to float around here and hurl insults at everyone that might share a different opinion than you........go run a company and manage a P&L, balance sheet, board and be responsible for the livelihoods of a few hundred people then come back and tell me what you think of big government and how they spend money. I'll bet your perceptions change just like mine have over the years. Real world experience is often the catalyst for personal change of opinions and mindset. That isn't so distant to politics either.

BLM the org is Marxist and radical. They literally had all of that radical information on their website until someone smarter than the idiots running it advised them they might want to take it down. Why would Breonna Taylor and Michael Brown's family call them frauds and ask for some of the proceeds to reach the communities if they were on the up and up? BLM never registered as a not-for-profit, they are a Delaware limited liability company, which means there is no recourse for a founder using donated money to buy millions in real estate in 99% white neighborhoods. They also don't show up on the streets of Chicago when a 7 year old girl gets killed in a McDonalds drive through by another person of color and start injecting some of the millions they've raised to incorporate change. It's yet another politically motivated corruption vehicle that only shows up when a white cop hurts someone black, raises millions which never gets distributed and then demands power to tear down the system but doesn't suggest how they would fix the system. BLM the idea, is the vehicle that is easy to get behind and support. The org is a giant somehow legal ponzi scheme until they become a 5013C

Hold up there buckaroo.

1. I have a lot of friends from business school who are exactly the people you describe... running companies, departments, multi million dollar budgets. Some even own their own business like myself. (several of whom, by the way, who live in multimillion dollar homes right down the road from you in NJ) Almost 100% of them would not agree with your political views. We don't like paying taxes, nobody does. I am terrified that Biden might raise taxes on pass through income. But many of us realize also that it is the only way for our country to survive. History has taught us this. EVERY TIME we slash taxes and deregulate we end up having a crash and eventually have to raise taxes again. Why not just operate under a moderate, consistent taxation model?

2. Trump knows how to run a P&L? Really? Did you just type that? Trump ran most of his businesses into the ground through bankruptcy or failure. As President he added almost $7B to the national debt in FOUR ****ING YEARS. To compare, Obama ran up $8B in eight years. It does not take a stable business genius to know that if you cut your companies revenue without curbing spending, that is what is going to happen.

 

[jakefest]

Hold up there buckaroo.

1. I have a lot of friends from business school who are exactly the people you describe... running companies, departments, multi million dollar budgets. Some even own their own business like myself. (several of whom, by the way, who live in multimillion dollar homes right down the road from you in NJ) Almost 100% of them would not agree with your political views. We don't like paying taxes, nobody does. I am terrified that Biden might raise taxes on pass through income. But many of us realize also that it is the only way for our country to survive. History has taught us this. EVERY TIME we slash taxes and deregulate we end up having a crash and eventually have to raise taxes again. Why not just operate under a moderate, consistent taxation model?

2. Trump knows how to run a P&L? Really? Did you just type that? Trump ran most of his businesses into the ground through bankruptcy or failure. As President he added almost $7B to the national debt in FOUR ****ING YEARS. To compare, Obama ran up $8B in eight years. It does not take a stable business genius to know that if you cut your companies revenue without curbing spending, that is what is going to happen.

Just fact checked your statement on you having lots of friends............. turns out that was false

But that just isn't the only way for the country to survive. Our tax revenue actually went up when they slashed taxes as it encourages new and more spending, the creation of new businesses, expansions, investment etc etc. More money flows through the economy from both individuals and corporations. Lower corp taxes encourage firms to move HQ's back to the US which results in more tax revenue. Anytime you increase a company or an individual's overhead, they are going to make reactionary adjustments in hiring or spending. It's down to discipline, you either want to encourage more spending to generate tax by lowering them or you want to just tax everyone to the gills to generate tax revenue so the government can spend it.

Never said Trump was that guy, but my god you guys need a new talk track. Bloomberg might have been that guy but the left wouldn't vote for him. I sure would have. We need CEO's of successful fortune 500 companies righting this ship, not some lifetime politician who barely graduated from Univ of Delaware who says whatever you want to hear to get your vote.

So let me ask you this, the country ran at maybe 20% of normal capacity for some of last year and 0% for the other portion. You just argued that when revenue slows, you cut spending no? So how in gods name do you think 6 Trillion of new spend is going to go down when we have a FULL YEAR OF ZERO TO LIMITED inbound revenue? You literally just said you don't spend when revenue is down, no? The government, like small businesses should have been shutting non-essential programs to cut back but instead, they walked in more funding and even sent an absolute shed-load overseas to sh*thole countries. I bet you government employees still got paid even when they couldn't work. If my company doesn't have revenue, we make cuts to survive or we go bankrupt The government doesn't have revenue, it increases spend. How is that logical?

The reality that so many folks refuse to face is the ultra wealthy will avoid 90% of these increases and the burden will trickle down to other tax brackets. It always does.

Oh.....and by the way, giving regulation the middle finger is what got you 2 vaccines within a year. Sometimes overregulation prevents growth.

 

[scotchtiger]

The reality that so many folks refuse to face is the ultra wealthy will avoid 90% of these increases and the burden will trickle down to other tax brackets. It always does.

This. On brand, Biden talked about CEO compensation and the fact that the top 650 BILLIONAIRES increased their net worth by $4 Trillion during the pandemic.

Okay, interesting fact, but what exactly does that have to do with people making $400K or cap gains on people making $1M? Those are rounding errors to the richest 650 in the US. Those thresholds have nothing to do with billionaires.

If you want people to pay their fair share as you say over and over and over again, maybe actually focus on those not paying their fair share. Because it's not "normal" high earners that will be impacted by these policies.