What is everyone's opinion with what happened in Michigan today?
- Thread starter scartiger
- Start date
Human life and the economy are directly linked and correlated. Economic disaster and restrictions can kill and ruin health more and even a lot more than the natural course of the pandemic beyond a threshold.
Increasing crime, increased domestic abuse and especially child abuse, increased suicide, exacerbation of mental health across the board, job loss, increased food insecurity and hunger, increased relapses in drug and alcohol addicts, lost businesses that will not recover. Widespread anxiety, fear, and depression. We have that right now. Riots and looting eventually. We can tolerate so many weeks. But not too many months.
Besides, COVID-19 will run its course through the population. Mitigation's goal is to slow the spread enough to not overwhelm hospitals and resources and have many more deaths than needed. That has nearly been accomplished if we continue a few more weeks. But plans to open the economy and culture need to be in place. For practical reasons and for psychological and emotional hope. Vaccines will not be available in time likely before herd immunity occurs in high liklihood in my opinion. Seasonal changes will hopefully help, but there is uncertainty here as well.
People talk about vaccines and testing and antibody testing. But it will likely be hospital use and death rates from COVID-19 that drives decisions more than anything. The popular UW model predicts hospital use and deaths will be very low by the first week and of June FWIW. There will be good vaccines and lab tests for active infections and antibodies- but likely available and utilized widely only well after the pandemic has petered out.
Concern for human life and the economy is not binary as many seem to simplistically think. They are related directly and concerns and measures need to be balanced.
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I'd send pictures of that to every recruit considering us or Michigan.
There is freakin snow on the ground in April and people are bundled up in winter coats. By April, Clemson has girls sunbathing on Bowman field.
As for the protest..usually those folks are at work. Take away their jobs and they now have idle time. And if Michigan is shut down, how could they cause traffic problems. There's no traffic to begin with.
There is freakin snow on the ground in April and people are bundled up in winter coats. By April, Clemson has girls sunbathing on Bowman field.
As for the protest..usually those folks are at work. Take away their jobs and they now have idle time. And if Michigan is shut down, how could they cause traffic problems. There's no traffic to begin with.
Good post.
Our goal is either a) to eradicate Covid -19 or b) try to minimize the damage it does. Once everyone accepts that we will not erradicate Covid, then we must move on to limiting the damage it does. That means health damage and economic damage, they go hand in hand.
In some places, such as South Carolina, we have done too good of a job flattening the curve and are actually causing more harm than good. Our strategy of smoothing out the curve needs to do just that. Right now the curve is too low (our hospital beds are empty) and therefore causing more harm than good. Its not a smooth curve.
I understand the situation is different in NYC, and they should be treated as such. I am all for helping our NYC brethren, but I don't think that bringing the rest of the country to a screaming halt is helping them.
But people chirping that we are sacrificing health vs economy are not realizing that they go hand in hand. Without a healthy economy your healthcare will not matter and vice versa.
Lets show that we can walk and chew gum at the same time. Open the economy up for the young and healthy and take measures to protect the at risk population.
Like a bad movie, I read this entire thread.
With all due respect, your supremacist opinion of those American's is exactly the same as our British masters in the 1700's, the Nazi's in the 1930's, the Japanese in 1940's, etc., etc.
Shallow end of the gene pool right there.
Having an underlying issue is not an indication of moral weakness or being unworthy of reasonable safety. I am considered “elderly”, but have an exercise program, keep a daily log on diet, and take no medication. My wife is considered “elderly” and has an autoimmune disease of the lungs resulting in COPD. My only child has MS and science has no definitive cause for the disease. My son-in-law had first kidney transplant as a teenager. I would not describe ourselves as “fat,...nearly dead people, waddling around.” There are other people besides you who don’t need to die of COVID-19. We need to open up the country as soon as possible, but it needs to be done as soon as an effective testing and tracking program can meet the demands likely to occur.
My thoughts:
(1) The press coverage those losers got is hilarious. They got 500 white guys in pickups and confederate flags in fvcking Michigan to do a high school drive-through at the state capital? Let me know when it's 100,000 people across society.
(2) If I were a Republican, I would say every one of those Bubbas should have worked harder and pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and saved money and had better jobs that were quarantine-proof. That is the right-wing way, right?
(3) People's rent is, what...$10 per month? And they spend $50 per week on food? This money should last them months....MONTHS!
(1) The press coverage those losers got is hilarious. They got 500 white guys in pickups and confederate flags in fvcking Michigan to do a high school drive-through at the state capital? Let me know when it's 100,000 people across society.
(2) If I were a Republican, I would say every one of those Bubbas should have worked harder and pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and saved money and had better jobs that were quarantine-proof. That is the right-wing way, right?
(3) People's rent is, what...$10 per month? And they spend $50 per week on food? This money should last them months....MONTHS!
They were reports thousands attended. What can you rent for 10 dollars a month?
I was being facetious at Mnuchin's claim that $1200 should last people 10 weeks.
This is for you and I want those liking your post to pay attention.
My post had zero to do with the right of those gentleman to be armed. They did nothing wrong. My post was CLEARLY about people's responses on this board and other similar places to certain issues and how they view "protest". All those protesting legally, armed or not, are operating within their rights as a US citizen. And not protesting the government is wasting a valuable opportunity and right that people died for. Especially if you're protesting within the law.
Back to my point. People's reaction that all of us have seen, have everything to do with whether they agree with the cause or not. They will break down why the protest is bad from a methodology standpoint. How they need to do things differently or how they could've protested better. The time of day they chose, if they were loud or angry or anything. If the people and protestors from the Charleston incident showed up armed, totally within their rights, I'm saying the actions of the people in here would be different. Has zero to do with their right to do so. The inconsistent views expressed by bystanders is what I'm addressing. I think many got exactly what I was saying. This is not about legal gun carriers. I am for the second amendment totally. No question about that.
Black Panthers were encouraged by Obama to show up at voting booths and intimidate voters. The shameful justice dept at the time, laughed about it and thought it was cool. Eric Holder actually said something like, now it’s time for white people to be persecuted. Have a feeling he’ll get what he deserves one day.
wholeheartedly agree, and I apologize if the hyperbolic tone of my post was misleading or distracted from the point I was trying to make.
This is going to sound a lot meaner and colder than I intend, but thats the media. Sorry. I'm really trying for a discussion and not a finger pointing, blame the fatty post.
Isn't your last sentence this pretty much the crux of the matter? You want testing and tracking to know who to avoid so you can go about your normal life. Thats not how it works. Folks don't prove they are innocent. If's your responsibility to make certain assumptions on the likelihood of encountering a potential positive patient and you making the decision whether or not to socially distance. You know the health status of your family and the risk level you are comfortable tolerating. You have to make that decision. You have to protect your family with the best information possible, not the other way around.
We've got similar health issues with extended family, luckily not with our immediate family. Does it suck that we haven't been able to visit with them...sure (well, some of them). Even when the country is "open" I'm still probably not going to visit some of them. Does it suck equally or moreso that every kid in this country has gotten a suboptimal education since March when all the data shows that kids aren't at risk and largely aren't effective carriers?
Is it your job to not go to the restaurant, or is it the restaurants job to shut down and put their folks out of work to protect you? Or should the restaurant put a scarlet letter on every employee to show they MIGHT have been within X feet of a suspected person within the last 4 days? Is it your job to not go to the barber shop, or should we put the barber out of work?
From a public health standpoint, I do think its a bit too early to "go back to normal." But as we learn more about the virus, that time is quickly approaching. But its not going to be when we develop a vaccine. Its not going to be when google and apple develop a tracking system to identify potential exposures. And its not going to be when there is a test that folks have to take every time they leave their house to prove they are virus free.
I'm ok with you feeling this way. It may sound a little insensitive to some. Still your right. I'm guessing you also agree that all the businesses impacted by this virus should also be allowed to fail? I mean they should've been better prepared. I was told to always have savings enough to live a solid year without an income. Once I achieved that I can now look at others and be like, well you should've been better prepared.
Your business should've been healthier. The free market through this virus will create opportunities for others to re-start the many small businesses that failed. Meanwhile, if you were smart enough to start a grocery store business, or Walmart, or some other pandemic proof business, ie your 31 inch waste, then you get to survive. Bottom line, using your logic, they kind of brought this on themselves by not having a healthier business. I'll be ok if the locally owned business in my community falter. Every single one of them. I just need the essential businesses. Grocery stores and such. Kind of like not needing old people. I'm ok with just having a bunch of young healthy people around or only the old people who took care of themselves.
Nope, because those businesses were not given options. They were shut down, the exact opposite of "free market." Barber shops should have been given the opportunity to demonstrate that they were appropriately sanitizing. Restaurants should have been given the opportunity to prove they could provide distance and cleaning. Hotels/airlines etc.
I agree with you technically but I'm making an argument with the same level of insensitivity that some have with people's health. I'll continue along those lines with my hardline answers and insensitive defense but just wanted to let you know what I was doing.
There have been pandemics before. An argument can be made that these businesses should've been prepared for the worst. Even if the govt says you can't work. Wimbledon actually had pandemic insurance.
I understand. You can't predict the worst. For example. If I have one years of income saved up I may never need that but I'm covered in case the unknown happens. A business not being able to survive after being shut down a month or two shouldn't be running. That's like me living month to month right? Again I'm being as hard as people are being on the unhealthy because if not for this virus those businesses would be open is the same as if not for this virus those unhealthy people with pre-existing conditions would still be alive.
Shallow end of the gene pool right there.
"Shallow end of the gene pool right there."
This statement is the elitism of liberals and socialists. If liberals protest, all is good and somehow they are virtuous - but they are not the shallow end of the gene pool. It makes me sick this hypocrisy.
They have the right to protest against government over-reach which we see in this case. Hell, they have the right to protest anytime.
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Don't forget Hillary and her "deplorables" description.
Also, need to point out that a huge % of people with those issue have them due to absolutely no fault of their own. many of those issues are present from birth and/or are presented pretty early in life as hereditary traits. We've got two in my house alone (6 year old son born with a rare lung disease and myself with hereditary high blood pressure and a heart issue only recently diagnosed, but apparently present since birth).
Totally fair but you have to be prepared for people not to care about your mom dying since she’s “just an old person and old people die”.
Fair enough. And I don't necessarily see any benefit to assigning blame. Yes- many of these health issues are the result of dietary/lifestyle choices. But, I also think we overstate the average person's ability to make good (healthy) decisions in the face of relentless marketing/misinformation campaigns by the giant food/ag corps.
Hats off to you for trying to explain this. I hope the message gets through, but the cognitive dissonance is real.
I wonder if your "fatties" take will change if and when (and I hope this does not happen) a seemingly healthy, fit, young, active person in your family becomes high risk, through no fault of their own. They find out they have an auto-immune disease, a lung or heart condition from birth that had gone undiagnosed or just manifests in the person's 20's, etc. The people hit hardest by this virus are not all "fatties", and to assume so is beyond stupid.
Everyone is being forced to close. Government is responding to a pandemic that is no one's fault. Shut down everything for the sake of public health or whatever you want to call it. Shit happens. Your preparation and the free market decides what happens to you. If the individual banks they owe money/lease to decide to let them off without paying then so be it. They are required to pay it by law. If as a small business you can negotiate or get out of it then so be it. Your business survives. The businesses that can't figure it out will fail. There's no standard trickle up effect that you're trying to create to make a point. This is not unprecedented. Should've been better prepared just like your "fatties" should've been healthier right?
So what if I agree that government shouldn't be able to decide that? Fact is they are and it's what we chose as a society. As a result we are where we are. Govts shut down businesses they deemed not necessary and we all have to deal with it. Some were prepared and some weren't. Some people were healthy in advance of this and some weren't. Let those people die, let those businesses die. Hell the capitalist in me is looking for an opportunity to replace those business and fill that void with a better plan. Those others should've been prepared for the worst. Even a rogue government. By the very same token My health protects me from a rogue govt whether they force us to quarantine or not. My being healthy keeps me alive even if they never shut anything down. I'm prepared. Be better at business and you survive. Have money saved up to survive a year of problems like this. If you can't, survival of the fittest.
Am I right?
I hope the government is merciful to you since you want to give them all your rights.
Reason for lockdowns were to prevent hospitals from being over ran. That threat is gone and now the governments narrative has changed again...
1. You should learn proper English if you want to live in America.
2. No one is advocating for diminished rights or government control. I'm suggesting that if you're ok with running around in a group right now, then you'll be ok at the back of the line for a respirator.
LOL
Nope. I'm in incredible shape. Those on this site that know me can attest to that. Your attempted insult just makes me laugh. I'm just using your logic across the board.
Why have you resorted to insults? Are you admitting you're not willing to expand your logic across the board? Why are you so disgusted by "fatties". You don't care if they die. Who in your past was a "fattie” and didn't give you the love you needed? I feel like if I guess who you might take it as an insult to them. But hell you just attempted to insult me.
1. I have dyslexia. (Glad my brain works the way it does) I got my undergrad from Clemson and doing just fine in the real world. So I guess I’m able to live in America. Turns out the “proper English” isn’t too important.
2. That’s government controlling who gets what based on actions. That’s not a free country. Same can be said about fat people. They decided to be unhealthy, they wait back of line for anything medical.
