That is not the same. Imagine if we didn't have history books and never knew Hitler existed
“History is not there for you to like or dislike.....
- Thread starter tigerGUY
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That is not the same. Imagine if we didn't have history books and never knew Hitler existed
I dont think you understand me, but ok. I'm not racist at all. My point is more why do we keep fighting about petty things that happened before our time? It's not productive for this Nation, regardless of race, to keep this stirred up.
Learn from it, it happened.
Good discussion. I find little to quibble with in what you have said thus far....but there are two points or questions I want to raise: one regarding the quoted statement above on Jefferson, the other on how could so many poor non-slave owners be motivated to fight for the rich man to own slaves.
I've done a 180 on my view of the Civil War. I come from a long line of Lee's in South Carolina dating back to the pre-Revolutionary War era. My my great great (etc) Grandfather fought in the Revolutionary War to help start what would become the USA, and his grandson serval decades later fought in the Civil War to help tear it all apart. To the best of my knowledge, none of my lineage owned any slaves. As I understand it, only the wealthy owned slaves; and the Lee's of this era were poor farmers. Reading the Confederate Constitution, there is no denying the South's stance and their post war ambitions with regard slavery. They wanted slaves and wanted it enshrined in the Constitution. One thing I still have trouble with, however, is what made poor farmers from the south want to march a 1,000+ miles, often times barefoot, in the snow and near starvation, just so some rich man could have slaves? Besides the obvious hardship, wouldn't that also be working against the self-interest of the poor farmer, as the wealthy slave owner would only persevere or strengthen their competitive labor advantage if slavery were to be persevered?
On Jefferson, I think the case against him raping and fathering a child with one of his young teenage slaves, Sally Hemmings, is grossly overstated. DNA evidence indeed confirms a Jefferson male fathered a child with Sally Hemmings--but not that it was not necessarily Thomas. Circumstantial evidence points to his brother as the more likely father given his propensity to frequent the slave quarters and general fondness for the African people. There is also ample speculation that Thomas Jefferson was not even in the country when Sally was impregnated. Of course, I can't in good faith bring this up without acknowledging that the Jefferson Foundation itself has fully surrendered to the theory that Thomas Jefferson is indeed the father of the child in question. Nevertheless, it is not at all "proven" that Jefferson ever fathered a child or otherwise raped any of his slaves.
By the way, I too finished grad school, but my course of study was computer science. There is no room for a minor when majoring in computer science; but if there were, my minor would have been history. I filled my electives out with history courses where I could and have read countless books on various topics in history. I've read no less than four on Jefferson himself and perhaps a dozen more on other founding fathers. I've read biographies on Lee and Lincoln and a handful on the Civil War specifically. The point I'm trying to make is I'm not some drive-by partisan on this issue. I am genuinely interested to understand what really happen in our past.
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But he did. And we do.
Concentration camps were turned into museums so the world wouldn’t forget the horrors of the Third Reich. Germany and other Nazi countries didn’t name roads, schools and parks after SS leaders, did they?
This whole “if we don’t memorialize these awful people everyone will forget it happened” idea is hogwash.
Many white people, especially southern white folks, refuse to even discuss it because they can’t bear the thought that old great-grandpa did some really nasty shit. So they turn it around on the people whose ancestors were lynched, raped and pushed into slavery against their will as being bullies because they don’t want to face some uncomfortable truths.
Not really.
Is it not possible that good men can fight for a bad cause? No one can doubt that Lee/Jackson were good, decent, honorable men who fought with great skill. As for Germany, I could say the same about Rommel, Hartmann, Galland.
I don’t think it’s right to have a statue of a confederate general in the inner city of Baltimore or Atlanta, or to have little black kids attend Nathan Bedford Forrest Elementary School. But I do think there are places where it’s perfectly fine, and correct, to have them placed.
Just seems to me like a lot of the statue removal recently is being done out of spite and pettiness, not out of a desire to “heal” or “move past our sins.”
Yes, really. You want to talk about spite and pettiness, look into the facts of when the vast majority of these statues were erected in the first place. It was during and after the Civil rights movement.
Nobody said there weren't any good and honorable men fighting for the Confederacy. We're saying there shouldn't be statues memorializing the LEADERS of a traitorous, racist cause.
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I didn't say anything about you being racist. The rest of what you said doesn't make much sense to me.
So it’s ok to have a statue of a simple Confederate soldier in front of a county courthouse, or a statue of RE Lee in a park, or Stonewall Jackson at VMI. But no statues allowed of Jefferson Davis.
Good. We agree.
The History books talk about Shermans march to the sea.
That was child's play until he got to SC.
Burning, Looting, Raping. Those mid western federal troops were animals.
That was child's play until he got to SC.
Burning, Looting, Raping. Those mid western federal troops were animals.
You’re seeing goal #2 of the NWO being fulfilled….. “To destroy all National Pride
Goal #2 of the NWO…. “To utterly & completely destroy all National Identity & National Pride, which was a primary consideration of a one world government was to work.”
You’re correct about the vast majority of what you’re saying but I HATE when people insinuate that the US was somehow “the better side”, it’s not that simple. While they were “better” if you look specifically at Slavery, quantity of, etc, what’s left out so often is that Slavery was the entire economy of the South.
Meaning, the rebellion was about economics. While this is EVIL, no doubt (meaning kidnapping/enslaving people is outright EVIL) the North’s economy depended mostly on Industry. That Industry (NOT Slavery as it was not Agrarian), was gained on the backs of HORRENDOUS treatment of people. Outright slavery? Not by strict definition. Functional Slavery? (Meaning the people didn’t actually have a choice)? Likely.
So both sides were perpetrating horrendous evil as it pertains to just Economics. Was the South worse, perhaps, I think that argument can be made but let’s not pretend that the US Government (The North) were the great knights of civilizations history.
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Take your lousy fvcking opinion and stick it where the sun don't shine. It takes a little, little mind to get where your intellect and hate reside. Twit.
One need only read The Naked Communist, a book written in 1958 by former FBI agent W. Cleon Skousen. An excerpt of his book was actually read into the Congressional record in in 1963 (ref Congressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35 January 10, 1963).
Here's an excerpt:
[From "The Naked Communist," by Cleon Skousen]
CURRENT COMMUNIST GOALS
1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.
2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.
3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.
4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.
5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.
6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.
7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.
8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.
9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.
10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.
11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)
12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.
13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.
14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.
15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.
16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.
17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.
18. Gain control of all student newspapers.
19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.
20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policymaking positions.
21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.
22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms."
23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. "Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."
24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.
25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.
26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."
27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a "religious crutch."
28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."
29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.
30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."
31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.
32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture--education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.
33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.
34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.
35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.
36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.
37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.
38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].
39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.
40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.
41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.
42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use ["]united force["] to solve economic, political or social problems.
43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.
44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.
45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction [over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction] over nations and individuals alike.
Your argument with the Northern "Giants of industry" these greedy cocksuckers road the coattails of children as young as 8 and a significant number of people in an indentured servitude capacity where that railroaded many of these people.
I'm interested in hearing some explanation of why Sherman was ordered to hurt the South with the destruction of cities, crops and livestock.
Good tough farmboys and woodsmen. Hell on wheels (or feet and hoof)
Think about this: those sumbitches marched, on foot, from Chattanooga to Savannah, then up to Columbia and into North Carolina. Cut off from all communication and supply, fighting most all the way. Like 'em or not it's one of the great epics of American military history.
I fought in wars that I thought were just at the time (i.e. Operations Iraqi Freedom Nobile Anvil, specifically). I am not so sure about that now.
For the record, I am largely against building statues of any one person. Period. Memorials I am all for, but I am not for the near deification of any particular person. But that is just my feeling on the matter overall.
how lame do you have to be to make up "quotes" and false claims from others to try to prove your point. kinda makes u a loser.
So you believe he should have accepted the position of the general of the union army invading his home state of Virginia??
He wasn’t a military genius? The only reason the war lasted four years was because he was a military genius. He consistently defeated armies twice his size. He made mistakes at Gettysburg. But that doesn’t change his overall accomplishments
It’s clearly not to heal and move forward. They have no interest in that. If they tore down every statue they would simply find something else to complain and protest against to prop themselves up as more righteous. It’s endless
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Do you want us to be like Russia? Jesus what a dumb comparison.
Russia is not the standard to which we hold ourselves.
"Rape" ? Yea a famous scene from Gone With The Wind but there are very few accounts of Sherman's troops "raping." There are accounts of US servicemen raping German (and French) women during WWII though.
"Thieves" - yea, but so did our guys marching into Germany. Or during the occupation of Japan. The most famous Samurai sword was last seen in Japan in 1945, when it was turned over to US occupation authorities. A priceless heirloom probably sitting lost in some attic in the US.
"Arsonists" ? Far more "arson" committed by our bomber crews on civilian targets in Japan and Germany than anything in Georgia or SC. Deliberately too.
Our submarine commanders famously destroyed Japanese transports, effectively starving the Japanese population.
So I'm wondering, do you consider American GI's and pilots and airmen and sailors in WWII "thieves, rapists, arsonists."
That isn't a made up quote. I never tried to pass it off as one. Those particular quotation marks indicate that if I was saying my post out loud, I would have done the air quotes thing. That's all. Sorry you were so deeply confused by my rather common technique of indicating that.
And I will tell you that the most racist areas in the country are in the northeast. I have a friend who played in the NBA and was in a front office of an NBA team. He is African American and I asked him which NBA city did he find was the most difficult for him and he said everybody knew Boston was the worst. I only bring this up as I find most southerners get along and love each other and your segregated cities and lack of interaction and friendship between races and ethic groups are in the Northeast.
And should we remove anything having the name Woodrow Wilson? He was one of the biggest racists every, but he was president of this country. Your comments are excellent-agree 100%
The response we all expect from you to an intelligent post. You have an anger management problem Bruh?
I'll take a stab......America?
No I'm not angry. I just don't have any respect for any Maga and I address y'all accordingly. Magas are pathologically dishonest, subhuman scum and unworthy of serious debate. You'll either put me on ignore or take it whenever I dish it out. Deal with it.
I agree with this, believe it or not. But the north didn't secede over the infringement of their right to enslave human beings. It may sound like a technicality to you, but it's actually quite significant.
There are magas all over the country. It definitely isn't limited to the south. But there's no civil war memorials to racist traitors peppering the landscape up north.
I think that's the point. We haven't learned from it. Or at least some haven't.
You throw disgust around at “magas”. Do you hate everybody who voted for Donald Trump? Do you have that much anger? If we are going to blame everybody who votes for someone, is that just and fair? Are you happy that you voted for a man who said this week “God save the Queen”? Should we label you for who you support? Many people voted for both men, showing hatred at the voters of either man is just disgusting.
