YES BENJAMIN RYAN TILLMAN DID MANY THINGS I WOULD HAVE BEEN AGAINST, HOWEVER HE WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN ENCOURAGING THOMAS GREEN CLEMSON TO USE HIS WILL TO HELP ESTABLISH A "FARMERS COLLEGE", YES A "FARMERS COLLEGE". AS GOVERNOR OF SOUTH CAROLINA , HE OVERSAW THE ESTALISHMENT OF CLEMSON COLLEGE FOR MEN AND WINTHROP COLLEGE FOR WOMEN,YES,BOTH FOR WHITES. HE FORCED THE SOUTH CAROLINA LEGISLATORS TO SET A SIDE MONEY FOR BOTH COLLEGES.
**New** (Larry) Voices carry
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Who's version of the "history"? You mean the revisionist history taught in public schools these days? If they can scrub monuments from public squares, words are much more easy to "find, replace, delete".
They DECIDED that it represented hate to them? LOL! Again, where were the people who loved the flag so much that they allowed a bunch of murderous thugs to run throughout the country killing innocent people without saying a single word. That's love? Not saying they would've stopped killing but the defenders of the flag would've been on record with different reasons for loving it. Historically they would have already been seen as a different and legit camp altogether. Just no response to that? Don't worry. Its indefensible i presume.
The main hall at Winthrop University (formerly "College" like Clemson) is also named Tillman Hall and is similar in structure. The two were once seen as "brother and sister" schools for South Carolina, one for males, the other for females. Clemson was all male and Winthrop all female through the early sixties. The story, right or wrong, is that Tillman was very instrumental in establishing both as educational institutions for the men and women of SC (outside of Columbia).
You fight that battle also if you have to. Fight for truth no matter what right? You cross that bridge if you have to. Has nothing to do with how you choose to HONOR a murderer. You claimed history will be lost somehow not me. No matter how you slice it as it stands a horrible human being's name sits atop the most prestigious building on campus and you somehow believe deciding he is not worthy of such an honor will make us forget about him. He should be in a book where history often is. Name the building after someone with a brighter light than that of a self professed murderer.
Larry, I completely disagree with you on 2 fronts. It will NOT be a great day when the flag is moved from it's current location. I come here for Clemson coverage not your political views! The flag stands for our southern heritage. That's what it means to me and I do not want to going anywhere.
Also, I do not agree that it will be moved. Too many representatives in small rural towns, namely in the upstate, that will vote against moving it.
Don't chalk it up as being moved yet!
Also, I do not agree that it will be moved. Too many representatives in small rural towns, namely in the upstate, that will vote against moving it.
Don't chalk it up as being moved yet!
jmed99, for the record, Larry's views expressed in columns here do not necessarily reflect my views or Paul's and vice versa. Full disclosure, while I obviously respect Larry and his point of view on both the flag and Tillman Hall, I do not share that point of view. Larry is entitled to his opinion, of course. I come down on the side of David Wilkins with regard to Tillman Hall. I also understand and respect why many want the flag removed and I also understand and respect why many want it to remain and their belief that the removal of the flag will not stop nor deter the divisiveness in this state and throughout the country.
The impetus to the article was that Mr. Clements, Mr. Radakovich and Coach Swinney weighed in on the issue yesterday -- Clemson figures that we do indeed cover on a regular basis. When they make news - regardless of the arena - it is not unusual for Larry to weigh in on it whether it be in a column or in his blog. Larry, as you'll recall, also weighed in on the FFRF from Wisconsin and their remarks about Coach Swinney in the spring of 2014. We also weighed in on Coach Swinney not attending the Palmetto Family Council meeting.
It's rare but from time to time we/TI or Larry will weigh in on non-sports related issues, particularly if Clemson figures are involved or involve themselves one way or another.
Thanks for the response Chris! Also, I think Larry is the best sports writer in SC and thought that even back when he was at the P&C. Hey, just because I disagree doesn't mean I'm mad or upset. I think the flag should stay and I think it will stay but hey it's all good if Larry thinks otherwise 
I'm sure some are playing politics, but I really don't believe Gov. Haley is. The first public comments Sen. Graham made when asked about the flag sounded like politics. I was actually surprised to see him at Haley's press conference. As far as Gov. Haley's change in 24 hours, I don't think it takes people long to re-align their perspective in the face of tragedy and injustice. As i looked at the list of state house members and Senators who were abstaining from comment or held a position of "no" about removing the flag, I couldn't help but think that everyone of them is deciding what side of history they will be on. I think a heart and a mind can change in a moment depending on the influence. Not sure about any CEO comment.
You really believe that the rationale behind changing the name of Tillman Hall won't or cant be used to change even more high profile buildings? Come on man.
Tomorrow, I'll write an article on how the CBF became a so-called symbol of racism.
Obviously, no one on here has kept up with current events for the last 20 years or do.
But sheep see the propaganda by the liberal media for years and just buy it.
You know, one of the most evil men ever, Adolf Hitler, is credited with the quote_: "ijf you tell s lie often enough, the lie becomes the truth.'
I guess you guys prove him right.
Tomorrow, I'll tell you how we got to this point.
Honest questions: What other issues do you speak of that would have caused a later war? My studies have shown ever major issue (can list if like) a major if not the major component was slavery. To your point about northerners if by that you mean border states you would be correct, but to say "many" is simply inaccurate (link: http://www.civil-war.net/pages/1860_census.html). With all due respect if there is a false interpretation that has been spread it is about the entire conflict and flag, specifically its place on the state house. Before you may assume I'm a believer the South was and is the horrible place that is not true either. To say racism existed in the South only due to racism is completely inaccurate and not supported by history, so I don't appreciate that label being stuck solely on the South, who in many ways I feel has progressed as much if not more than other areas of the country. I also do agree the men that fought and died for the confederacy did so for a belief in protecting their homes from "oppression", but to that again I pose you a question. If a majority of these men were poor and illiterate, mainly due to lack of educational opportunities offered due to lack of infrastructure in plantation based south, would they truly understand the goals of the wealthy leaders who led them into secession? Oh and in reference to the group(s) you say decided it was a symbol of hate you must mean the KKK, Segregationists, Neo-Nazis, or other racists groups that have waved it proudly.
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What exactly is the revisionist history you speak of? Some examples please? That word gets thrown around a lot, but I don't hear much evidence to back it up.
The thing is, this heritage is so deeply rooted in hate. The heart and soul of the states rights' issue was in fact white supremacy. I don't know how you can interpret stephens' cornerstone speech any other way.
Thanks for the response Chris! Also, I think Larry is the best sports writer in SC and thought that even back when he was at the P&C. Hey, just because I disagree doesn't mean I'm mad or upset. I think the flag should stay and I think it will stay but hey it's all good if Larry thinks otherwise
Hey, thanks for the kind words jmed99. No worries from this end either. Appreciate your support and respect your opinion.
Hey Larry, let's remove the American flag too while we're at it. It's flown high during Indian massacres, slavery, the massacre of innocent bystanders around the world and the genocide of millions of unborn children. That flag flies on a monument honoring South Carolinians who died fighting g for SC. People in this country have no idea what's going on in politics and we live in a world of 24-hour media. You think those soldiers thought they were fighting for slaves and we're up to date on the political events of the day? Most were too poor to even have slaves so why would they care? They were fighting for their homes...because Lincoln called for a massive army to invade the south. He pushed Lee...maybe the greatest American general of all time...into a divisive war. Home is where the heart is and confederates were defending their homes. We can pretty much add reconstruction to the list of atrocities as well. So let's just get rid of every piece of American history that offends someone.
Just what I wanted to read when I logged on. Geezus.
The world is a completely different place than what it was back then, and even as recent as the 1960's. You can't project 2015 America onto 1900 America.
One demented kid goes off in a terribly tragic way and some sportswriter thinks there is suddenly a mandate to change the name of one of our buildings.
This was predictable, just didn't think it would be here.
The world is a completely different place than what it was back then, and even as recent as the 1960's. You can't project 2015 America onto 1900 America.
One demented kid goes off in a terribly tragic way and some sportswriter thinks there is suddenly a mandate to change the name of one of our buildings.
This was predictable, just didn't think it would be here.
And I disagree with you.
I, like Larry, also think it will be a great day when it comes down. It never should have been where it is in the 1st place. Never agreed with the silly ass compromise they came up with to take it down of the top of the dome & place it on Statehouse grounds. It never should have been placed on the top of the statehouse. Why was it placed in a position of sovereignty in the in 1962 anyway? To me, it represents treason. It also represents hate and intimidation. It's not my heritage. It's the flag under which people fought to primarily keep slavery (or as you'll probably say...to maintain states rights). I personally have zero use for it & it brings nothing positive to the table for the state of SC. Absolutely nothing.
I don't necessarily disagree with you on all these politicians voting for it not to come down. It wouldn't surprise me one bit. They know who their base is & will pander to them to ensure they get re-elected. It's pretty sad though. That flag clearly isn't something that brings people together. It's flat out divisive--always will be.
I know this much...money talks . And if it doesn't come down, you best believe future business willing to invest in SC may think twice about coming here. This is a major hot button topic nationally not with the general public, but in the business community. Amazon, Walmart, EBay, Etsy have all shut down sales of those flags. Apple CEO is calling for its removal. Panthers owner Jerry Richardson is too. When people that create jobs start beating the drums for it to come down...it's only a matter of time.
I personally think the flag issue is taking attention from the families and the lives their lost. It's been highly politcized. This could wait till after all of these victims are buried. Removing that flag will be a great symbolic step for the State of SC & it's perception in terms of race relations, but it does nothing to impart true measurable changes for the minorities in SC.
I generally agree with you and Larry on this- it is not cleansing; it is ceasing to honor and 20 years ago would still not have been too soon. And the ignorance, lameness and lunacy of the ongoing exercise in apologetics makes me very ashamed.
You can put a confederate flag decal on your truck or name your child "Tillman" and brand yourself as what you are- but you're painting the rest of us with your brush and it needs to stop.
It's taking away from the victims because the outsiders are making an issue out of it. It's a memorial for men who fought and died for SC. . I stand with my family that fought to defend their homes. If you don't like it, leave. Take your ideas of treason with you. Or are you even from South Carolina, Royal?
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Born & raised in SC. Great grandfather was born a slave in Berkeley County on April 12, 1861 (was Charleston County) on Comingtee Plantation on the Cooper River. His grave is still standing to this day in Huger, SC. My roots are entrenched in SC. Are you from here?
"If you don't like it, leave". This is just as much my damn state as it is yours. Why don't your ass leave? I will call it treason till I die. That's what it will always be to me. You stand with your ancestors and they right to defend their way of life. I'm glad to say I'm happy they didn't win the war. I stand by my beliefs that the flag sucks & was used to intimidate my people. That's all I see. You view the world through one prism and I see it through a completely different lens. Gonna have to agree to disagree.
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You can think it was all about slavery all you want, but those men fought and died for their homes in this state. They were South Carolinians who fought and died for this state. They deserve a war memorial. Nothing you and the outsiders screaming can do to stop that. I don't mind that it's not on the state house anymore...but the memorial is deserving. Regardless of what you or anyone else thinks...they were soldiers who fought and died for this state and deserve a memorial. And I'm a direct descendant of a few of those men.
I didn't say they couldn't have a memorial. Go for it. People that support the flag and want to honor their ancestors should build the largest conferate museum in the country. I have no issues with that. But it doesn't need to be where it currently is.
Ah...but the next stop will be a beautiful section at the state museum...one more thing for lib outsiders to fuss over.
The people who called for its removal, including your head coach, are outsiders?
If you think that was the premise of the column, you are mistaken.
Give me a break. What did you think they'd say when asked? The national news media is here to pounce on anyone who doesn't want it to come down. According to them and all the outsider groups, a home that supports the flag is a racist murderer. Of course that media will be gone in a couple of weeks and the cowardly politicians that broke will be left with the true SC electorate who I'd wager is overwhelmingly supportive of the flag.
The flag issue doesn't matter to me one way or the other. The bigger picture is where is it going to stop? When is a group of people going to force legislation to pass more important decision on our lives? Already passed abortion,taking prayer out of school and same sex marriage is right around the corner. As crazy as it sounds is gun control, how many children you can have, passing pedephile law as ok. The mind can be a wicked tool. You cannot change history and we sure don't look like we have learned anything from it either.
Still waiting for someone to explain some of these stupid statements and "reasons". People post without reading previous comments.
AGAIN, how does this change history? How does it cleanse it? Ceasing to HONOR something or someone doesn't mean you forget it. Continue to teach and make people aware of the past.
Idiots make statements like most students didn't know who Tillman was and then say removing his name is denying history. Keeping his name wasn't teaching anything either. HONOR someone who deserves to be honored. We have grown as a state. We have a different set of values.
Tillman will live a long life in the museums and history books with other men both good and bad. And so will his flag.
Most of the aforementioned people who called for its removal did so without being asked.
I don't think SC's electorate is "overwhelmingly supportive of the flag."
The chairman of your Board of Trustees played a major role in getting the flag off the dome. He's pretty popular right now.
Not sure. No I don't think we will rename the Washington monument or Washington, DC. It may lead to roads and other significant buildings on campus or in other states. I think that the south in general is targeted so, no, I don't think it will lead to that level of changing the name of the Lincoln or Jefferson memorial.
He wasn't the face...Beasley was. Plus, supporting the football team and running for public office is two different things. In this world, he's a football hero...in the world of politics, he's a Bush disciple with big govt tendencies. Two totally different worlds. Let him run for election and see what's said about him.
I think what Haley said the other day is a pretty close reflection of what the majority of South Carolina residents think on the issue.
I'm happy to see all these flag thread moved from the sports side. Some talk about how the flag puts a division among the people in S.C. and these topics have put a division between many of the good Clemson fans on here.
Some can't respond/talk about it without name calling or trying to put someone down for how they feel and think about the Flag.
From what I see the one's who do the name calling and put downs are the one's who want the flag taken down and talk the most about how the Flag is repressive and a division of the people. What they say the Flag does (puts a division between the blacks and white's) is what they do (by name calling and put down) to their fellow Clemson fans. You can almost see it on here the hate from some if you disagree with them or have a different view they start with the name calling and put downs. We don't need that among us Clemson fans on this sport site.
I'm glad to see the staff finally put these thread in forum for those who want to talk about the flag and I hope each will be more open to the views by both sides and stop with the name calling and put downs.
Some can't respond/talk about it without name calling or trying to put someone down for how they feel and think about the Flag.
From what I see the one's who do the name calling and put downs are the one's who want the flag taken down and talk the most about how the Flag is repressive and a division of the people. What they say the Flag does (puts a division between the blacks and white's) is what they do (by name calling and put down) to their fellow Clemson fans. You can almost see it on here the hate from some if you disagree with them or have a different view they start with the name calling and put downs. We don't need that among us Clemson fans on this sport site.
I'm glad to see the staff finally put these thread in forum for those who want to talk about the flag and I hope each will be more open to the views by both sides and stop with the name calling and put downs.
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I think if you put it to a vote of the people you might be wrong. Every where I go I hear more talk about not wanting it down and outsider telling S.C. what they need to do. I've heard some say Dabo, SS, the Gov. all can take a hike if they don't like the State. Some support it as well but a vote by the people is how it should be done. I think the Gov. and Dabo might be surprised how that would go.
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