Whatever
Offends
Klansmen
Easily
Where I am from and in most circles you would be considered highly intelligent but in some circle you're a bud light drinking wokiee
“History is not there for you to like or dislike.....
- Thread starter tigerGUY
- Start date
Offends
Klansmen
Easily
Where I am from and in most circles you would be considered highly intelligent but in some circle you're a bud light drinking wokiee
Like I’m saying, it’s not like I went to Cal-Berkeley. I went to Clemson and my grad advisor there is pretty good friends with Dabo and coached the Swinney boys in travel baseball
Both men were great Sons of the Commonwealth of Virginia.
One owned a plantation called Mount Vernon where I grew up 3/4 of a mile from the estate.
The other grew up in Alexandria, VA , the city where I was born.
One is a hero and the other has been turned in to a National pariah based on today’s society.
Winners write history. Fact.
If Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Hancock, Marion, etc...had lost the war of Independence to King George and the British...they all would have hung as traitors.
That’s also a fact. But these men (rightfully so) are American Icons.
**I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of The United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic “ in 1989.
Served 28 years. But I also can see the facts, however ugly they may be.
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This is almost all true, but it does not mean that each side in a conflict has an equally meritorious cause.
Both men were great Sons of the Commonwealth of Virginia.
One owned a plantation called Mount Vernon where I grew up 3/4 of a mile from the estate.
The other grew up in Alexandria, VA , the city where I was born.
One is a hero and the other has been turned in to a National pariah based on today’s society.
Winners write history. Fact.
If Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Hancock, Marion, etc...had lost the war of Independence to King George and the British...they all would have hung as traitors.
That’s also a fact. But these men (rightfully so) are American Icons.
If Germany had won WW2, 20th century history would be taught very differently all over the world, but it wouldn't mean the Nazis were any less evil.
Edit - And Lee was not turned into a pariah by today's society. Sorry but that's just not true. He has been a pariah to at least half the country since the Civil War.
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Our pseudo intellectual atheist again instructing the rest of us as to the correct enlightened way to think. You're a one trick pony man.
I have a degree in history. Do you? The answer to your question will determine which one of us is more of the pseudo intellectual as it pertains to the topic of history.
Dang that’s crazy. Hey why didn’t Bobby Lee free his slaves? And last time I checked, he took an oath to defend the United States, not Virginia. Also, what was the American revolution about and why did the southern states secede?
Both men were great Sons of the Commonwealth of Virginia.
One owned a plantation called Mount Vernon where I grew up 3/4 of a mile from the estate.
The other grew up in Alexandria, VA , the city where I was born.
One is a hero and the other has been turned in to a National pariah based on today’s society.
Winners write history. Fact.
If Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Hancock, Marion, etc...had lost the war of Independence to King George and the British...they all would have hung as traitors.
That’s also a fact. But these men (rightfully so) are American Icons.
**I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of The United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic “ in 1989.
Served 28 years. But I also can see the facts, however ugly they may be.
Adolf Hitler’s dream of a “Thousand Year Third Reich” and an extermination of an entire race, along with world conquest... is a little different from southern states seceding from the Union...but I understand your premise.
Yes are there degrees and I didn't say there weren't. Genocide is worse than slavery.
I would certainly hope we don't dismiss the moral error of very evil causes like slavery simply because they weren't AS evil as Genocide.
You didn't address the Lee comment, and that's fine. But you're being disingenuous at best by saying Lee is only a pariah by today's society.
There were hundreds of black slave owners in South Carolina alone. One of the most famous/wealthy being William Ellison.
Tearing down statues that memorialize horrible individuals who also happen to be losers isn’t erasing history. Germany doesn’t have Hitler statues everywhere and I’m pretty sure everyone still knows what he did.
I've always laughed at these "but black people did it too" defenses. Who the fvck cares? That is not any kind of defense. It's asinine.
I get what you are saying for sure. But that doesn't make it somehow right. And no matter HOW you slice it, the US imported slaves (mostly Black) from Africa to be mostly owned by white people... are there some exceptions? Sure. After slavery ended, we had a BUNCH of Jim Crow laws based on the "separate but equal" court ruling (was that Plessy vs Fergisan .... or something like that?). Clearly the laws of the land were stacked against Black folks.
That changed (mostly) in the 60s, but laws remained on the books for decades forbidding biracial marriage for instance. That's where CRT comes in. It CLAIMS (and you can make reasonable arguments for and against it) that the US laws are stacked against Black people. It's a theory.
Definitely Gus? You sure about that? I think you need to revisit some things. C/P from one source but Google will bring up many more if that’s your fancy to check behind me. 👊 William Ellison was a very wealthy black plantation owner and cotton gin manufacturer who lived in South Carolina (not North Carolina). According to the 1860 census (in which his surname was listed as "Ellerson"), he owned 63 black slaves, making him the largest of the 171 black slaveholders in South Carolina, but far from the largest overall slave holder in the state
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Did I say it was right anywhere? For some reason I just can’t find where me or anyone else said that. All it does for right or wrong adds perspective and that’s all we are doing here right? I mean to leave out facts wouldn’t be the right thing to do unless you are pushing a narrative that is opposite from the truth. I mean African Americans sold their people to slavers who then sold them to not only whites but blacks as well and none of it was right but at this point there isn’t a single person alive who has owned or bought a slave.
There are so many beautiful things to be appreciated about the south, and my home state of South Carolina. I don’t understand why so many southerners feel they have to defend the ugliest aspects of their heritage.
Monuments to confederates were mostly erected in response to civil rights movements. They did not magically appear overnight as unimpeachable markers of history without which we would forget everything. In fact they distort history by legitimizing figures who should not have that honor. They were erected as political objects and remain politicized. They should be taken down, just like that flag over the state house had to come down.
Monuments to confederates were mostly erected in response to civil rights movements. They did not magically appear overnight as unimpeachable markers of history without which we would forget everything. In fact they distort history by legitimizing figures who should not have that honor. They were erected as political objects and remain politicized. They should be taken down, just like that flag over the state house had to come down.
Again, I agree completely. I'm against reparations for that very reason.
Disappointed that we got to “Lincoln was a tyrant” in only 10 comments. That feels like the sort of nugget that you want to let someone discover on page 3 or 4 of the thread. (Or would that be a tidbit?)
Fvck y’all for bringing this shit to this board.
This is the most important element of this debate. Most of these were put up as a response to the civil rights movement. "What kind of response is that," you say? Good question.
Every person reading this thread knows in their heart exactly what kind of response that was. The heritage is the hate.
You were a History major? Online I assume. I take it you have never read a biography of Lee.
Lee never bought a slave. He inherited them from his father in law. Lee's father squandered their family's money and left his wife and children to survive on their own.
Lee broke no oath. As any officer can do at any time, he resigned his commission.
Lee is a certified military genius. You can certainly find mistakes he made on the battlefield. But he knew in order to win he had to take risks. He constantly beat larger, better equipped, forces than his. Too suggest otherwise shows an ignorance of the Eastern battles of the Civil War.
However, you obviously have an agenda, my words will fall upon deaf ears. May I suggest you read Freeman's biography of Lee. Fuller's Grant and Lee: A Study in Personality and Generalship is very good too. Two men, different in so many ways, both achieved so much.
Eric Foner, one of the greatest living American historians of any field or subject, can say it much better than I can. Definitely read this by him. You can’t be reading hagiographies of Lee and expect to get the truth https://web.archive.org/web/2023040.../28/books/review/eric-foner-robert-e-lee.html
I’d suggest that any -isms are found in the interpretation and application of the law — they are not systemic within the law.
The U.S. Constitution has six objectives:
1. Form a more perfect Union;
2. Establish Justice;
3. Insure domestic Tranquility;
4. Provide for the common defense;
5. Promote the general Welfare; and
6. Secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity.
It was designed to evolve, always with these objectives as its guiding principles — and it has, at least up to this point. It is the most incredible concept of governance that we as humans could devise.
A truly remarkable document in that it is the embodiment of “America” — as much an idea as it is an actual nation.
For us, the implementation of the Constitution demands smart, metered, and informed discussion and debate — always underscored by a firm appreciation of and adherence to the document’s objectives. That was deliberate and clearly articulated by the Founding Fathers.
Any attempts to dismantle the Constitution or repaint it in a different light, especially due to a lack of appreciation for its purpose (objectives) would be a monumental travesty. Folks won’t know what they’ve had until it’s gone.
I am really glad the North won the civil war and slavery ended in America when it did. I am glad to be be largely governed by a national government rather than a local state government. I have visited all the major battlefields of the Civil War and honored the brave on both sides who fought in the Civil War and read as much history of that war as I have of WWII.
That said, the conduct of the southern states with respect to black Americans in the 100 years following the civil war was un-Christian, un-American and profoundly evil. I remain disturbed and angry at the conduct of my home state of South Carolina in those evil years and cannot come to terms about the role my own family played for those many evil decades. If tearing down all the monuments to the southern soldiers during Civil War itself can help most of us understand the evil in how our recent ancestors conducted themselves with respect to race in our part of the country until after I was a grown man, then I would favor taking the monuments down. Unfortunately I do not think a majority of us have yet accepted the terrible things that were done after the Civil War as something we should all own and for which we bear some accountability. This thread makes me believe many of us do not yet accept the truth of why we waged the Civil War despite the clarity of the evidence.
That said, the conduct of the southern states with respect to black Americans in the 100 years following the civil war was un-Christian, un-American and profoundly evil. I remain disturbed and angry at the conduct of my home state of South Carolina in those evil years and cannot come to terms about the role my own family played for those many evil decades. If tearing down all the monuments to the southern soldiers during Civil War itself can help most of us understand the evil in how our recent ancestors conducted themselves with respect to race in our part of the country until after I was a grown man, then I would favor taking the monuments down. Unfortunately I do not think a majority of us have yet accepted the terrible things that were done after the Civil War as something we should all own and for which we bear some accountability. This thread makes me believe many of us do not yet accept the truth of why we waged the Civil War despite the clarity of the evidence.
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Bear some accountability for what exactly? I didn’t fight in the civil war nor have I ever owned, purchased, or condoned slavery in any way. I am not responsible for any of that. You can stop right there with the guilt parade. It’s very unlikely anyone alive today has owned or been a slave. Acknowledge that slavery sucked sure. Feel some weird misplaced guilt about it? Not a chance.
To our country. And if you're going consider Washington a traitor to what was hostile enemy at the time, surely you have to consider Lee one I presume?
Yeah I'm with you on this. I don't feel guilt at all. I feel proud that the right cause won, and I feel anger and resentment at those who still wish to perpetuate that racist ideology today, and I feel shame that my country is so close to sliding into racially motivated authoritarianism if Trump or any other far right candidate wins the WH any time soon.
But I do not feel guilt or bear any responsibility for anything that happened before I was born.
We get your opinion on the matter. Make another post to erase any lingering doubt.
And Russia was the cause of the cold war. Yet we're welcoming those people into America
We get your opinion on the matter. Make another post to erase any lingering doubt.
Imagine if a few decades after WW2 a handful of German cities decided they wanted to build statues of Nazi leaders and when, a few more decades later, some people said “hm, that was a bad idea we should probably take those down” some goober posted on a message board that we shouldn’t take down the statues down because its part of our history and we should learn from it and so what if its offensive to honor Nazis.
That’s what’s happening here.
That’s what’s happening here.
Bingo. Already made a very similar argument to this and it was summarily dismissed because the Nazis did something even more evil than the Confederates. At least I'm pretty sure the poster was being serious. If not, it was brilliant satire.
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