“History is not there for you to like or dislike.....

[flotiger]

And I will tell you that the most racist areas in the country are in the northeast. I have a friend who played in the NBA and was in a front office of an NBA team. He is African American and I asked him which NBA city did he find was the most difficult for him and he said everybody knew Boston was the worst. I only bring this up as I find most southerners get along and love each other and your segregated cities and lack of interaction and friendship between races and ethic groups are in the Northeast.

Yes there are racists outside the south. Yes, I've heard racist comments all over the country. What's your point?

 

[okclem]

You throw disgust around at “magas”. Do you hate everybody who voted for Donald Trump? Do you have that much anger? If we are going to blame everybody who votes for someone, is that just and fair? Are you happy that you voted for a man who said this week “God save the Queen”? Should we label you for who you support? Many people voted for both men, showing hatred at the voters of either man is just disgusting.

Depends. I have complete respect for those who voted for him in 2016 but not 2020. Much less for those who voted for him twice. Absolutely none for anyone still defending him today. Literally zero, the same I'd have for a sewer rat. Yes I'm very happy I voted for Biden and I will happily do it again.

Not engaging with the rest of your post, it's just a bunch of dumbass whataboutism

 

[loveoysters]

Yes there are racists outside the south. Yes, I've heard racist comments all over the country. What's your point

Depends. I have complete respect for those who voted for him in 2016 but not 2020. Much less for those who voted for him twice. Absolutely none for anyone still defending him today. Literally zero, the same I'd have for a sewer rat. Yes I'm very happy I voted for Biden and I will happily do it again.

Not engaging with the rest of your post, it's just a bunch of dumbass whataboutism

then you think I am a sewer rat, have a good day. God save the Queen sir

 

[loveoysters]

Depends. I have complete respect for those who voted for him in 2016 but not 2020. Much less for those who voted for him twice. Absolutely none for anyone still defending him today. Literally zero, the same I'd have for a sewer rat. Yes I'm very happy I voted for Biden and I will happily do it again.

Not engaging with the rest of your post, it's just a bunch of dumbass whataboutism

God Save the Queen, have a good day

 

[okclem]

@loveoysters since you don't know how to quote properly I had to tag you.

No, I don't think you are a sewer rat. I just afford you the same amount of respect I would grant one of them in a politics discussion.

 

[Broheim]

Depends. I have complete respect for those who voted for him in 2016 but not 2020. Much less for those who voted for him twice. Absolutely none for anyone still defending him today. Literally zero, the same I'd have for a sewer rat. Yes I'm very happy I voted for Biden and I will happily do it again.

Not engaging with the rest of your post, it's just a bunch of dumbass whataboutism

I'll say one thing. You are consistent. Always stumping for liberal pedophiles. Not all pedo's mind you as you have clearly come out against the pedo Catholic priests (I'm with you here by the way).

Oh and mad props to you sir. You are the first person I have EVER seen either on a message board or in real life poke their chest out to proudly proclaim that they are indeed...... a History major!

 

[okclem]

I'll say one thing. You are consistent. Always stumping for liberal pedophiles. Not all pedo's mind you as you have clearly come out against the pedo Catholic priests (I'm with you here by the way).

Oh and mad props to you sir. You are the first person I have EVER seen either on a message board or in real life poke their chest out to proudly proclaim that they are indeed...... a History major!

Which liberal pedophiles am I always stumping for? You should be able to provide a list since I'm always doing it in between posts bragging about my history degree.

 

[madchad]

"Rape" ? Yea a famous scene from Gone With The Wind but there are very few accounts of Sherman's troops "raping." There are accounts of US servicemen raping German (and French) women during WWII though.

"Thieves" - yea, but so did our guys marching into Germany. Or during the occupation of Japan. The most famous Samurai sword was last seen in Japan in 1945, when it was turned over to US occupation authorities. A priceless heirloom probably sitting lost in some attic in the US.

"Arsonists" ? Far more "arson" committed by our bomber crews on civilian targets in Japan and Germany than anything in Georgia or SC. Deliberately too.

Our submarine commanders famously destroyed Japanese transports, effectively starving the Japanese population.

So I'm wondering, do you consider American GI's and pilots and airmen and sailors in WWII "thieves, rapists, arsonists."

The irony of it is that most of the women raped were slave women.

 

[Broheim]

Which liberal pedophiles am I always stumping for? You should be able to provide a list since I'm always doing it in between posts bragging about my history degree.

Lolol.

Well, first on the list is Biden.

Second, I must admit you remind me of the hecklers in the back of this audience when talking about the queer theory and children. May be unfair, but we will go with it since we seem to do the same with anyone deemed MAGA. Rrrroooollllll the tape with the angry trans activists in the back of the room worked up on the subject of pedophilia........

 

[okclem]

Lolol.

Well first, on the list is Biden.

Second, I must admit you remind me of the hecklers in the back of this audience when talking about the queer theory and children. May be unfair, but we will go with it since we seem to do the same with anyone deemed MAGA. Rrrroooollllll the tape with the angry trans activists in the back of the room worked up on the subject of pedophilia........

View embedded media

You can just say that you're not a serious person. There's no need to go to all this effort to demonstrate it.

 

[madchad]

Good tough farmboys and woodsmen. Hell on wheels (or feet and hoof)

Think about this: those sumbitches marched, on foot, from Chattanooga to Savannah, then up to Columbia and into North Carolina. Cut off from all communication and supply, fighting most all the way. Like 'em or not it's one of the great epics of American military history.

Fighting most of the way? A few skirmishes and probably one battle at Rivers Bridge on the Salkehatchie river. But I do agree that they were tough outdoorsmen that were better with a gun, horse and axe than the recent immigrant city dwellers of the army of the Potomac.

 

[mantan]

No I'm not angry. I just don't have any respect for any Maga and I address y'all accordingly. Magas are pathologically dishonest, subhuman scum and unworthy of serious debate. You'll either put me on ignore or take it whenever I dish it out. Deal with it.

No dog in this fight, but it is kind of an ironic that you argue that you don’t hate America, but do hate anyone who wants to make America Great again.

 

[okclem]

No dog in this fight, but it is kind of an ironic that you argue that you don’t hate America, but do hate anyone who wants to make America Great again.

😅😅😅 good one

Edit - I've never really argued that I don't hate America, because I have no need to defend that fact.

 

[DW4_2016]

No dog in this fight, but it is kind of an ironic that you argue that you don’t hate America, but do hate anyone who wants to make America Great again.

Wasn’t he already the president? Did he actually make it great again?

 

[okclem]

Wasn’t he already the president? Did he actually make it great again?

How would he know? He has no dog in the fight. It's just a coincidence that he used that phrase.

 

[ryanhaley]

That isn't a made up quote. I never tried to pass it off as one. Those particular quotation marks indicate that if I was saying my post out loud, I would have done the air quotes thing. That's all. Sorry you were so deeply confused by my rather common technique of indicating that.

the quote provided is made up - it's false. as are other statements you made. again. makes you a loser.

 

[okclem]

the quote provided is made up - it's false. as are other statements you made. again. makes you a loser.

Hahaha okay 👍

 

[firegiver]

Good discussion. I find little to quibble with in what you have said thus far....but there are two points or questions I want to raise: one regarding the quoted statement above on Jefferson, the other on how could so many poor non-slave owners be motivated to fight for the rich man to own slaves.

I've done a 180 on my view of the Civil War. I come from a long line of Lee's in South Carolina dating back to the pre-Revolutionary War era. My my great great (etc) Grandfather fought in the Revolutionary War to help start what would become the USA, and his grandson serval decades later fought in the Civil War to help tear it all apart. To the best of my knowledge, none of my lineage owned any slaves. As I understand it, only the wealthy owned slaves; and the Lee's of this era were poor farmers. Reading the Confederate Constitution, there is no denying the South's stance and their post war ambitions with regard slavery. They wanted slaves and wanted it enshrined in the Constitution. One thing I still have trouble with, however, is what made poor farmers from the south want to march a 1,000+ miles, often times barefoot, in the snow and near starvation, just so some rich man could have slaves? Besides the obvious hardship, wouldn't that also be working against the self-interest of the poor farmer, as the wealthy slave owner would only persevere or strengthen their competitive labor advantage if slavery were to be persevered?

On Jefferson, I think the case against him raping and fathering a child with one of his young teenage slaves, Sally Hemmings, is grossly overstated. DNA evidence indeed confirms a Jefferson male fathered a child with Sally Hemmings--but not that it was not necessarily Thomas. Circumstantial evidence points to his brother as the more likely father given his propensity to frequent the slave quarters and general fondness for the African people. There is also ample speculation that Thomas Jefferson was not even in the country when Sally was impregnated. Of course, I can't in good faith bring this up without acknowledging that the Jefferson Foundation itself has fully surrendered to the theory that Thomas Jefferson is indeed the father of the child in question. Nevertheless, it is not at all "proven" that Jefferson ever fathered a child or otherwise raped any of his slaves.

By the way, I too finished grad school, but my course of study was computer science. There is no room for a minor when majoring in computer science; but if there were, my minor would have been history. I filled my electives out with history courses where I could and have read countless books on various topics in history. I've read no less than four on Jefferson himself and perhaps a dozen more on other founding fathers. I've read biographies on Lee and Lincoln and a handful on the Civil War specifically. The point I'm trying to make is I'm not some drive-by partisan on this issue. I am genuinely interested to understand what really happen in our past.

I want to highlight the motivation. Rich people have been getting poor people to die for wars that don't benefit them for all of written history. There's always propaganda and usually scapegoats that help. For sure the motivation you could be looking for is a combination of many factors, not least of which was racism.

 

[leetp]

I want to highlight the motivation. Rich people have been getting poor people to die for wars that don't benefit them for all of written history. There's always propaganda and usually scapegoats that help. For sure the motivation you could be looking for is a combination of many factors, not least of which was racism.

Indeed...if not for the poor there would be no one to fight the wars. I am as patriotic as they come, but had I been raised with means, I'd have gone strait to Clemson out of high school instead of the military. And the overwhelming majority of enlistees were of similar background.

Nevertheless scathing critique of the South's stance on slavery is certainly warranted, but let's not get carried away romanticizing the North as post-racial progressive civil rights warriors. I dare say no white European that lived in the country at the time did not think themselves superior to the African race. Even the staunch abolitionist at the time were quick to point out that they didn't regard the African as equal to the European. Licnoln was quatoed as saying as much (though, politics....). Many abolitionists (incl. President Lincoln) also lobbied for repatriation or Caribbean migration for the African population post abolition.

While we're on the topic, is not viewing our fellow human being as equal, regardless of race, a fairly modern construct? Has not every race regarded themselves superior to other races at some point in time?

Anyway, my point is, I'm not sure the racism angle is a dominant motivating factor insofar as the whole modern world was "racist".

Granted it was more than 100 years later, but it should be noted that the national guard was also dispatched to Boston to help keep the peace during integration in Massachusetts.

 

[okclem]

Indeed...if not for the poor there would be no one to fight the wars. I am as patriotic as they come, but had I been raised with means, I'd have gone strait to Clemson out of high school instead of the military. And the overwhelming majority of enlistees were of similar background.

Nevertheless scathing critique of the South's stance on slavery is certainly warranted, but let's not get carried away romanticizing the North as post-racial progressive civil rights warriors. I dare say no white European that lived in the country at the time did not think themselves superior to the African race. Even the staunch abolitionist at the time were quick to point out that they didn't regard the African as equal to the European. Licnoln was quatoed as saying as much (though, politics....). Many abolitionists (incl. President Lincoln) also lobbied for repatriation or Caribbean migration for the African population post abolition.

While we're on the topic, is not viewing our fellow human being as equal, regardless of race, a fairly modern construct? Has not every race regarded themselves superior to other races at some point in time?

Anyway, my point is, I'm not sure the racism angle is a dominant motivating factor insofar as the whole modern world was "racist".

Granted it was more than 100 years later, but it should be noted that the national guard was also dispatched to Boston to help keep the peace during integration in Massachusetts.

Yes this especially true and you'll get no disagreement from me. Listen to the Randy Newman song, Rednecks, to hear some brilliant satire on this exact notion.

I'm jumping in late here so I'm not commenting on any other points made either way at this point.

 

[okclem]

Feels like this belongs in here

https://www.axios.com/2023/06/23/greene-stefanik-trump-impeachment-expunge

 

[WapPride]

Indeed...if not for the poor there would be no one to fight the wars. I am as patriotic as they come, but had I been raised with means, I'd have gone strait to Clemson out of high school instead of the military. And the overwhelming majority of enlistees were of similar background.

Nevertheless scathing critique of the South's stance on slavery is certainly warranted, but let's not get carried away romanticizing the North as post-racial progressive civil rights warriors. I dare say no white European that lived in the country at the time did not think themselves superior to the African race. Even the staunch abolitionist at the time were quick to point out that they didn't regard the African as equal to the European. Licnoln was quatoed as saying as much (though, politics....). Many abolitionists (incl. President Lincoln) also lobbied for repatriation or Caribbean migration for the African population post abolition.

While we're on the topic, is not viewing our fellow human being as equal, regardless of race, a fairly modern construct? Has not every race regarded themselves superior to other races at some point in time?

Anyway, my point is, I'm not sure the racism angle is a dominant motivating factor insofar as the whole modern world was "racist".

Granted it was more than 100 years later, but it should be noted that the national guard was also dispatched to Boston to help keep the peace during integration in Massachusetts.

I want to piggyback on this and add that repatriation, at that time, was heavily favored by AAs. Also, you’re absolutely right re: the north’s racism. There have been plenty of accounts written during that time attesting to the belief that northern whites didn’t view blacks as equals. That’s not to say there weren’t many that did view them as equals, but for the most part it was a major sentiment during that period… especially among the common folk

 

[okclem]

I want to piggyback on this and add that repatriation, at that time, was heavily favored by AAs. Also, you’re absolutely right re: the north’s racism. There have been plenty of accounts written during that time attesting to the belief that northern whites didn’t view blacks as equals. That’s not to say there weren’t many that did view them as equals, but for the most part it was a major sentiment during that period… especially among the common folk

I'm struggling to find the right way to word this. But I've observed in my life that horror movies by or about black people, that touch on racial issues, are almost always set above the Mason-Dixon line. Just an observation, not making any other claims.

That said, the cause of the Union was ending the practice of slavery and preserving the union. Their cause was morally right and just the complete opposite of the South's cause.

I lived in Colorado for a year, and I observed more overt bigotry towards Latinos there than I ever did towards black people here. But that was in 2000 and well before the Maga movement.

 

[leetp]

I'm struggling to find the right way to word this. But I've observed in my life that horror movies by or about black people, that touch on racial issues, are almost always set above the Mason-Dixon line. Just an observation, not making any other claims.

That said, the cause of the Union was ending the practice of slavery and preserving the union. Their cause was morally right and just the complete opposite of the South's cause.

I lived in Colorado for a year, and I observed more overt bigotry towards Latinos there than I ever did towards black people here. But that was in 2000 and well before the Maga movement.

Ditto. Born and raised in South Carolina, but never observed the kind of racism in South Carolina that I witnessed when I lived in Connecticut for a couple of years. I never knew there were so many ways I could hate my fellow human beings than the way they could hate one another in Connecticut. Up there, not only did ehites hate the blacks (and vice versa), but they hated the Puerto Ricans, and anything else not from their corner of Europe. The Italians hated the Germans, the Germans hated the English, etc. When I was getting to know folks up there, they wanted to know where I was from. I told them, South Carolina. They said no, where are you "from" (i.e. "what" are you...as in, where in Europe does your family hail from)? Again, I told them I don't know. My family goes all the way back to the pre-revolutionary period. I am just an American.

Bottom line, the hatred ran deep up there.

 

[okclem]

Ditto. Born and raised in South Carolina, but never observed the kind of racism in South Carolina that I witnessed when I lived in Connecticut for a couple of years. I never knew there were so many ways I could hate my fellow human beings than the way they could hate one another in Connecticut. Up there, not only did ehites hate the blacks (and vice versa), but they hated the Puerto Ricans, and anything else not from their corner of Europe. The Italians hated the Germans, the Germans hated the English, etc. When I was getting to know folks up there, they wanted to know where I was from. I told them, South Carolina. They said no, where are you "from" (i.e. "what" are you...as in, where in Europe does your family hail from)? Again, I told them I don't know. My family goes all the way back to the pre-revolutionary period. I am just an American.

Bottom line, the hatred ran deep up there.

And honestly, do you even care where your family came from in Europe? I don't know and i really don't care enough to find out. The South and this state have a lot of flaws, but I'd still rather live here than anywhere else because the people are real (enough).

 

[loveoysters]

And honestly, do you even care where your family came from in Europe? I don't know and i really don't care enough to find out. The South and this state have a lot of flaws, but I'd still rather live here than anywhere else because the people are real (enough).

This is very prevalent in northern areas. You are German American, Chinese American, Irish American, etc etc. I am just American as 99% of the people I know. I love the state of South Carolina and I am proud of this state!